No deal for Qantas and pilots [Archive]

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 02:41

Bugger. I was hoping that something decent could be achieved. Oh well. If this takes another bunch of months I guess we may see a pay rise by mid 2012- been a LONG time between pay rises!

Now it gets really interesting with the lawyers asking for lots of QF internal costings to be table in front of the full bench. Perhaps we may even see some of those 61 questions answered.

The phoney war has just finished.

ejectx3

21st Nov 2011, 03:12

Surprise surprise. What's the bet qantas already knows the outcome of arbitration after a cozy chairmans lounge chat ...

TIMA9X

21st Nov 2011, 03:15

possible the management want another 21 days to get through to Christmas....

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 03:19

Doesn't sound like that at all Tima9X. This now all goes to arbitration but THAT is going to take months to finalise.

In the interim, we have the 'appeal' against the FWA to terminate starting on 1 Dec and so that will run concurrently.

TIMA9X

21st Nov 2011, 03:42

In the interim, we have the 'appeal' against the FWA to terminate starting on 1 Dec and so that will run concurrently. Wow,

lawyers asking for lots of QF internal costings to be table in front of the full bench.I see a lot of management dirty washing hanging out to dry for all to see, from what I am hearing the pilots have a very strong case and should win the appeal. Couple this with the grounding decision from AJ, the share price heading south already since late last week as the market was betting that the issue would be resolved and a very possible EGM for LC and AJ to clarify the business plan sets the course for some very interesting times...:ok:

Mstr Caution

21st Nov 2011, 03:55

I thought QF & AIPA had until midnight tonight to exhaust all negotiations !

Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, said yesterday he was hopeful of clinching agreements by Monday. ''We'll be working until the 11th hour to try and get an agreement,'' he said.

Did QF choose to call off the 11th hour negotiations 11 hours early?

MC

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 04:03

..... and didn't want to extend another 21 days in order to get the deal done. He's been spinning all week when he's said he was hopeful of an agreement. :ugh:

rmcdonal

21st Nov 2011, 04:10

Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, said yesterday he was hopeful of clinching agreements by Monday.
I've been hopeful of winning Loto for a while now. I get close on a few numbers but never get the whole lot.

TIMA9X

21st Nov 2011, 04:16

For the record

tQumMADw-W8

.

neville_nobody

21st Nov 2011, 04:28

I see a lot of management dirty washing hanging out to dry for all to see, from what I am hearing the pilots have a very strong case and should win the appeal

Yes but will they win the war? Obviously QF believe that the FWA are not going to allow a ruling including an outsourcing clause. No point getting a 10% pay rise from the FWA if they allow the whole show to be sent to Asia.

However the political ramifications of what comes out in the FWA hearing might make things a little uncomfortable for Qantas.

33 Disengage

21st Nov 2011, 04:35

Qantas obviously doesn't place any value on goodwill or engagement of staff, because any that might have been lingering has been blown out of the air for the next 6 months or so, minimum!

Jack Ranga

21st Nov 2011, 04:36

Qantas aren't negotiating in good faith as the last thing they want is an agreement with any of you fellas.

They want it arbitrated as it will favour them. Let's hope that the truth comes out in this process.

T28D

21st Nov 2011, 04:49

You are all naive, Qantas has won, they will out lawyer you all, use forensic accountants and the big 5 accounting houses to bombard the arbitration with their story, it will be up to Unions to refute, you better have deep pockets as this is going to be a long and very bloody fight.

Discovery in legal proceedings is a 2 way street, out come all the secrets and embarrasing Emails.

There are lots of precedents for this, QF are not alone, they are following a well worn path and expect to succeed.

Ngineer

21st Nov 2011, 04:57

I read in the fin a couple of weeks ago that one of the arbitrators from FWA is an ex-Freehills partner.:sad:

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 05:00

Then ex Freehills partner has actually been doing the conciliation between Qantas and AIPA. Thus, AIPA is able to apply for him to NOT be a part of the bench considering the arbitration.

TIMA9X

21st Nov 2011, 05:10

Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, said yesterday he was hopeful of clinching agreements by Monday. ''We'll be working until the 11th hour to try and get an agreement,'' he said. If you look at the last video I posted and this one from this morning you will sense that AJ and Co never wanted to settle today.. his rhetoric doesn't add up.

uqkh0shP6Iw

I read in the fin a couple of weeks ago that one of the arbitrators from FWA is an ex-Freehills partner.Thanks Keg for pointing this out, it was on my mind as well.
.

Mr Leslie Chow

21st Nov 2011, 05:10

Keg did you know if AIPA is aware of this or not?

With them being up to the neck in management stool (pun intended) that may get through the net.

Of course this has been the play all along, these dicks don't want to lose like they did against the engineers in the last EBA, and there ego wont let them negotiate or 'engage' their staff/workforce.

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 05:14

Yes, they were aware. Their were some strategic decisions made as to whether it was better to have him involved in conciliation but excluded from the full bench or to exclude him from conciliation but have him on the full bench.

Whether it makes any difference I guess we'll know next year.

clotted

21st Nov 2011, 05:27

Keg,
If you had followed the story closely, you would have already learned that FWA (probably the President) had already stated that in each case, the judge doing the mediation would not sit on the FWA Full Bench WRT the same union/Qantas case.
Sorry to blow a hole in your conspiracy/prejudice theories.:ugh::ugh:

gobbledock

21st Nov 2011, 05:37

Always a hoot to see the Minister for Incompetence trotted out whenever the 'big aviation issues' unfold.
What is it with these nupties, he mumbles, stumbles, stammers and slurs and the Carbon Queen drawls, you would think Australian politicians have been born with an extra chromosone?

neville_nobody

21st Nov 2011, 05:52

clotted

21st Nov 2011, 06:04

Nobody,
I sometimes think that the English I use is different from the English you pilots use. My reading of Keg's posts was along the lines that somehow the Judge who was doing the mediation would be somehow biased because of some a previous association with Freehills and therefore AIPA had to consider its options and take action to have him disqualified (a theme supported by Tima9x and Chow) from the Full Bench.
I was pointing out that FWA had already addressed that issue of its own volition WRT to the 3 unions involved.
Conspiracy theory over.

SilverSleuth

21st Nov 2011, 06:28

Well I think it is game, set match qantas management. I am sure you will get a slight pay rise (3-4%) probably, maybe even more. But as long as the company does not have to sign any work clauses they have won the battle. Thats what they have wanted all along and I am sure they are betting no FWA will invoke such a clause.

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 06:30

Perhaps we do write differently. We certainly interpret it differently

My point is that AIPA could have applied to have the justice removed from the conciliation process due to previous history but the strategic decision was made to NOT apply for that knowing that he then wouldn't be on the full bench. :ugh:

No conspiracy theory suggested. Perhaps that's YOUR confirmation bias coming into play.

2Plus

21st Nov 2011, 07:22

I guess we may see a pay rise by mid 2012- been a LONG time between pay rises!

The last thing Qantas pilots should be asking for is to price themselves out of the market even further! I know efficiencies are being offered, but the exorbitant rates/overtime system/double allowances of some fleets are simply unsustainable, and whilst it may not matter how low pilots are prepared to go wrt influencing management's business plans, it certainly doesn't help the situation. Certainly not having a go at Keg, just my view in general. God forbid it all ends up in another EBA7 rollover cash grab!

As for this ongoing saga, management have played their hand perfectly, being several steps ahead of the various unions. Not saying they were fair or reasonable at any stage, far from it. The government's ill-conceived fair work laws have obviously been analysed to the nth degree, and whilst the unions' hands are tied behind their backs, an underestimated team are achieving their aim and will walk away scott-free and with a healthy little take home package.

And if you think it's been nasty so far, just wait till the redundancies (out of seniority) start! But that's another thread altogether.

ACT Crusader

21st Nov 2011, 08:07

If you had followed the story closely, you would have already learned that FWA (probably the President) had already stated that in each case, the judge doing the mediation would not sit on the FWA Full Bench WRT the same union/Qantas case.

I think that's what Keg was saying??:ugh:

Are you seriously suggesting that having a ex partner of a law firm who is known for anti union activity and who is then advising one of the participants in your case is NOT a conflict of interest??

Like seriously.......:rolleyes:

Are you alleging that Vice President Watson is biased and his position in assisting in the bargaining dispute is compromised because of his past employment? He's no longer on any sort of retainer from Freehills.

Does VP Watson have a history of "anti-union" decisions does he?

All members of FWA didn't crawl out from under rocks. They all have "track records" on one side of the divide or other. There are links stretching far and wide. But that is the past

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 08:38

clotted

21st Nov 2011, 08:51

I'm saying that in deals like this you want everything working in your favour. See the jetconnect case for a recent example where the justices disagreed on an issue despite all seeing the same evidence.

Funny you should say that Keg. VP Drake reputedly has a reputation for being anti Qantas in her decisions over a period of time. I don't know whether it is true or not but I do know that is her reputation.

RATpin

21st Nov 2011, 10:25

Gobbledock,your post gave me a good laugh.
Thanks.

ACT Crusader

21st Nov 2011, 10:30

I'm saying that in deals like this you want everything working in your favour. See the jetconnect case for a recent example where the justices disagreed on an issue despite all seeing the same evidence.

I guess that over the past 3 weeks the role of FWA has been as a facilitator, not an arbitrator, so I don't get the comments earlier (not yours specifically Keg) that the process of facilitation has been compromised by a FWA member because of past affiliation.

I guess the positive of this process is that when the arbitration kicks off and decisions have to be made it is by a Full Bench ala the JetConnect decision.

SDP Drake's dissenting position on that case may not have surprised some in the IR world given what some think is her pro-employee view of matters, in particular on unfair dismissal. Conversely the Peter Hampton position may not have surprised some given his Chamber of Commerce background.

Mr Leslie Chow

21st Nov 2011, 10:53

From SMH......

Why Alan Joyce should be named Australian of the Year (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/why-alan-joyce-should-be-named-australian-of-the-year-20111120-1np97.html)

How on Earth this £*¥€*£ %~}£ can ever get staff to ever trust him or be willing to go above and beyond ever again is beyond me.

Add to this this ¥€£ !*=+ comments and it is safe to say the world is stuffed.

neville_nobody

21st Nov 2011, 11:01

Few people on here seem pretty up to speed with Judges and legalese for a professional pilot forum......:hmm:

Maybe that explains why they can't comprehend Keg's plain English post from before.:}

Are you alleging that Vice President Watson is biased and his position in assisting in the bargaining dispute is compromised because of his past employment? He's no longer on any sort of retainer from Freehills.

Does VP Watson have a history of "anti-union" decisions does he?

No I am not.

However if you look at the rules of judicial disqualification there maybe a case for him to be removed depending on the circumstances and of the case at hand. Without knowing the finer details it would be hard to say more. In saying that he was a partner at Freehills for 19 years and QANTAS have used them as their legal advice over the years. Disqualification would depend on what cases and in what capacity as to whether or not it would apply.

All that aside, it is now irrelevant as it will be heard in court in front of a few of them so it could get interesting.

and whilst the unions' hands are tied behind their backs, an underestimated team are achieving their aim and will walk away scott-free and with a healthy little take home package.

Not over until the fat lady sings though. The FWA could get ugly and many things come out in the public that the company may not have wanted which may have severe political ramifications.

It will be a field day for the newspapers and there will be headlines galore with
some interesting legal and political debate to follow.

And I am sure the wining will never end if QF cop a job protection clause.

On saying all that if they want to go to Asia they can have it. I have absolutely no idea how they will ever get pilots cheaper than in Australia. You go to Asia the insurance goes up, the training costs go the to moon, there are cultural issues, finding pilots alone is going to be an issue. Most of the national carriers have to pay for the entire cost of training their pilots so how the hell QF think they are going to run an airline out there is beyond me.

gobbledock

21st Nov 2011, 11:02

Wonderful photo with that article, the wee man standing proud (not standing tall). Beautiful view of his chins, and that black attire, has he just attended a funeral (death of Qantas?). And that look - Could that be something out of Zoolander?

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 12:14

....how the hell QF think they are going to run an airline out there is beyond me.

I think they're banking on soon to be out of work QF drivers taking the gigs. That way they can still play the Qantas safety culture card. They may be shocked to discover the if crew have to move anyway, they'll adopt a more mercenary attitude and find the best deal rather than the easy deal.

boofta

21st Nov 2011, 18:08

Or
Maybe the arbitrators will rule that recruiting outsiders to
man an offshoot company as they make incumbents redundant
is both unfair and unreasonable. Its called FWA
In any case, it will put Julia and her legislation to the torch.
If there's a god both Julia and the garden knome will disappear.

THRidle

21st Nov 2011, 18:13

Take a look out there Keg, the gigs offered by Parc, Rishworth etc, or even directly with other well known international operators, offer a hell of a lot less than the boys (and Girls) have now.

Tipsy Barossa

21st Nov 2011, 20:18

Keg

21st Nov 2011, 20:26

Take a look out there Keg, the gigs offered by Parc, Rishworth etc, or even directly with other well known international operators, offer a hell of a lot less than the boys (and Girls) have now.

Yes, but will they be less than what QF is offering to fly in SE Asia? If the choice is between SIN on $240K SGD or EK, I know which one is going to pay better money and ensure the kids are educated effectively- and it ain't SIN.

The whole point of this is not what QF is offering now, it's what it's offering those it is about to make redundant- perhaps out of seniority as a result of what they 'win' at FWA- in a couple of years time.

Jack Ranga

21st Nov 2011, 21:42

Are you alleging that Vice President Watson is biased and his position in assisting in the bargaining dispute is compromised because of his past employment?

Are you serious? Surely you jest?

Post of the year mate :ok: post of the year :D

TineeTim

21st Nov 2011, 22:38

Is anyone, anyone, surprised by this? If so, you must seriously be living in 'cloud cuckoo land'. This is EXACTLY what Qantas has wanted all along. FWA will never force the job security clauses on QF. Never. QF may face some difficult questions and discomfort during discovery but so will AIPA. I predict about 3%/year with a few piddly productivity changes as an offset. The only really interesting issue will be the length of the deal. I believe they can make it up to five years? Is that five years from the end of the previous EBA, or five years from the date of the arbitration? I suppose it doesn't matter much- most QF international flying will be based offshore by the end of the agreement in either case.

Cactusjack

21st Nov 2011, 23:11

I like the thought of playing Joyce at his own game. So once the wheeling and dealing is done and dusted, an agreement is eventually reached among the unions and the paperwork is settled, then get even - refuse overtime, do not go above and beyond what you get paid to do, if you can complete a task in a less efficient manner then go for it, don't extend duty time, slow down that inbound approach to a crawl and miss that curfew, pushback late and miss that slot time, imitate managements lack of good will. They wont expect that after an agreement is reached, so let them know that people's memories are not short. Bend them over and deliver a colossal pineapple, they deserve nothing less.
I would even suggest placing an effigy of AJ, Cliffy and the other gimps inside each sign-on room so crew can slap it with a shoe prior to commencing every shift, that would lift morale.
F:mad:k him, the Board, their bonuses and their neighbors dogs.

TineeTim

21st Nov 2011, 23:24

Good post, Cactus.

On a (slightly) similar theme, there have been a couple of posts on Q-proon with guys saying they're resigning from the 'Advisory Committee'.

You have got to be sh*!!ing me. These committees are VOLUNTARY! Guys have been volunteering their own time to go in to the office for meetings in order to help management pilots do their job. QF made $500 million last year and they rely on pilots to VOLUNTEER to help them out. As a group, we are absolutely pathetic. Here's an idea- if you want to volunteer for something, ring the salvos.
When it comes to work, go to work, sign on, do your job exactly as required- nothing more, nothing less- sign off, go home. Don't answer the phone if the number is blocked. That's it.

breakfastburrito

21st Nov 2011, 23:34

with guys saying they're resigning from the 'Advisory Committee'.
...
QF made $500 million last year and they rely on pilots to VOLUNTEER to help them out.
That reminds me of a brown noser who was helping out on days off "to put something in the GOODWILL BANK". Needless to say his career has been well and truly destroyed, though the goodwill bank account is overflowing. Used, abused and spat out.

Me Myself

21st Nov 2011, 23:54

nt is eventually reached among the unions and the paperwork is settled, then get even - refuse overtime, do not go above and beyond what you get paid to do, if you can complete a task in a less efficient manner then go for it, don't extend duty time, slow down that inbound approach to a crawl and miss that curfew, pushback late and miss that slot time, imitate managements lack of good will

Great idea Cactus..........that way jobs can be offshored even more quickly than planned.
The hand in which so so happily s..t........is still the one that feeds you......like it or not !
You are stuck in the stone age of aviation where we, pilots, could claim just about anything we wanted.
Not no more today. Market price is the rule with EK, .....etc calling the shots and legacy airlines trying to keep up.
You can pull your hair and scream, you will have to bend over.......one way or another which is exactly why I urge younger people not to embrace this profession.
It once was fun, was financially and socially rewarding. It just isn't anymore and no parading with red ties is going to change that.
You want to go down with style ? Be my guest.

TIMA9X

22nd Nov 2011, 00:40

HVQ29KFe_pg

In this clip Tony Abbott admits there is something wrong with the FWA legislation, a no brainer Tony. It's a lawyers playground, each taking turns to shake the money tree.

.

Ngineer

22nd Nov 2011, 01:35

Tony has a solution. It's called workchoices.

TIMA9X

22nd Nov 2011, 02:03

Tony has a solution. It's called workchoices. more like Fair Work Choices Australia, its sort of fused...:rolleyes:

Barry Jackson speaks to Bloomberg/Washington Post today, for the record...

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For those using firefox, suggest click on the title and view video on youtube page. it has been reported some bug stops it working properly on the pprune page window.

HOueHMe3L6Y
.

ACT Crusader

22nd Nov 2011, 02:28

Are you serious? Surely you jest?

Jack Ranga - Maybe you can enlighten us on what decisions VP Watson has made in relation to the Qantas dispute that demonstrates this perceived bias?

If you have a problem with this, I guess I'll await a scathing post from you regarding DP Sams role in facilitating bargaining for the TWU and Qantas, given his previous role as Unions NSW Secretary.

I personally don't see an issue with any of the FWA Members being used for the different disputes. They are all experienced and senior members. Like I said in an earlier post, most if not all are connected somehow or other to something that could be seen as a perceived conflict, but FWA, like it's predecessors (AIRC, ACAC, CCCA) have had appointments that have leaned different ways.