A PPL for £3800????

[bouncibong]

Been visiting various clubs and getting prices for doing my PPL. Most clubs are quoting around £7500 to do my ppl. Some have given me a fairly heavy sell. Trying to decide as to whether to do my NPPL or JAR PPL.

Went to a small airfield called Hinton in the Hedges today. They have offered to do a JAR PPL for £3800. Im told that they do it cheaper by doing the training in a Grob 109 and a Dimona and I will get my Motorglider JAR TMG PPL and then do a conversion to the Cessnas, Tomahawks or PA28. Is this a sensible route to do a PPL? It seems too cheap.

Has anybody ever trained there? I did ask some of the students there and they seemed really happy.

The instructors seemed really nice and the aircraft looked tidy. I was left rather confused though as they wont take my money upfront and say I just pay for each lesson. All the other schools have asked me to pay for the whole course.

Also looked at Billins at Cranfield- anyone trained there??? What about Bonus- they were al ot more expensive- do I get better training if I pay more????

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't know the specific deal, and it does seem a little too good to be true. The reality is that it almost certainly will cost you more because virtually nobody ever does a licence in minimum hours. Also check whether this includes exams, test, aeroplane for test...

But if the people seem happy, try it and see if it works.

Personally I would recommend doing JAR PPL so long as you can pass the medical - the syllabus and test standards are broadly the same, and it gives you more options later (night, IMC, flying overseas, microlights without needing an extra skill test...).

Regarding paying up front versus pay-as-you-fly; ALWAYS go for the latter; this is an unstable business and far too many people have lost money with apparently good value "pay up front" schemes. That they refused to take your money up front I would regard as a strong point in their favour.

Regarding Billins and Bonus, I know both well. Both have good instructors, okay aeroplanes, and you'll learn to fly from a busy airport (with regularly grumpy air traffic controllers) after which nowhere will ever scare you! Billins is more attuned to PPL training, Bonus to commercial training. Availability of instructors seems better at Billins, but there are more instructors and aeroplanes at Bonus, both suffer slightly from the vagaries of Cranfield - but that's not their fault. Billins does come across as a bit amateurish around the edges, but I'd really not let that worry you; the actual flying is very professional, which is what matters.

G

[mad_jock]

Its one way of doing it I suppose and maybe the way these days.

The simple fact as Genghis has said they are refusing to take payment up has actually limited my warning bells on the price.

To be honest the price doesn't really say anything about the quality of training and your relationship with the instructor has more to do with your enjoyment and amount learned than anything else.

The gliding fraternity have got there house well in order on the training side of things. So personally I would go for a few hours and see if you enjoy the place and the aircraft. It will give you access to very affordable flying in the TMG afterwards.

I would budget for 7.5k though and if it does come in at the price quoted you are well in.

PFT: The MotorGlider Club | Pilot flight training and lessons (http://www.motorgliderclub.co.uk/index.html)

Is this the place?

70 quid dual can't be laughed at.

Seems pretty good setup actually if you do go for it let us know what it was like. BTW I would book in quickly if you do go that way from experence on getting outed on pprune schools fill up rather quick when this happens. I went from 12 hours a week to 25hours a week instructing when I was working full time in the space of two weeks.

[TommyOv]

Hi bouncibong,

I did my PPL on TMGs and then added an SEP rating; I also flew my skills test from Hinton so can probably offer some help on this.

I think it's an excellent way to do a PPL. The TMG syllabus is basically the same as the SEP syllabus, and in my opinion a TMG is a better basic trainer than your average Cessnas, etc., as it teaches you how to use the rudder better and generally improves your control co-ordination. Plus, the ability to turn the engine off and do a bit of soaring is a billy bonus and a useful skill to have.

I have flown the Super Dimona from Hinton (actually I believe the aeroplane itself is owned by the nearby Oxfordshire Sport Flying) and it's superb - looks brand new and has a constant speed prop, which is another good thing to have signed off in your logbook. The Grob 109 is a tailwheel aeroplane which is also a good skill to have and will further improve your handling.

More importantly: the instruction you'll receive from Clive at Hinton will be very good. I flew my NST and GST with him and have corresponded with him since and can testify that he's a very helpful bloke. The other posters are quite correct about not paying up front, and it's to Clive's credit that he's not asking for anything but payment by the hour.

However, regarding prices: don't let price be the sole dictator of where you train. More expensive doesn't always mean better, and - as other posters have alluded to - zero-to-hero PPL courses are always based on completing in the minimum hours (45); this is rarely achieved so definitely budget for a couple of £k over the quoted price.

As for converting onto SEP from TMG - I did this extremely quickly with a different flying club and there's not much to it, certainly nothing that should be beyond anyone at PPL level (only real differences are flaps instead of airbrakes and realising that a PA28 glides like a greased brick compared to a Dimona!).

Let us know how you get on!

Tom

[impulse9]

I did my NPPL (SLMG) at Hinton (finished August 2010), and am in the process of adding a SEP rating with the club there.

The SLMG took me around 18 months, and ended up paying slightly more than your figure, but close, as I needed some extra hours. PM me for details.

The CFI has always be up front and as flexible as possible accomodating my changing schedule, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. At times, I was the one who had to be flexible, but hey, your mileage may vary.

I am still not sure which would have been the *best* route to getting my license: at the start I wanted to fly VFR all over the place, Europe, USA etc - but now, the practicality of just bimbling around the midlands and south UK is more than enough to satisfy my flying bug with my limited time.

[znww5]

First of all, welcome to the forum!

As for your specific questions:

Other schools will be giving you the hard sell because a) winter is a lean period for flying organisations b) students are thin on the ground and they would like to lock you in and c) they need the cash!

My advice would be never pay more up front more than you can comfortably afford to lose. - Eg two schools (one very large, one small) have gone bust at Cranfield in the last 6 months, it is highly improbable that anyone will get their money back.

As for the NPPL vs PPL, go for the PPL - you will inevitably have the requisite hours by the time you finish and it offers more flexibility later on.

Having a PPL TMG rating and an SEP rating (Cessnas etc) will be useful after you qualify as you can count the hours in both types of aircraft towards your experience - again a more flexible option.

As for Hinton, Clive Stainer is the CFI and has a good reputation as well as years of experience. There has been significant investment in the club recently, with an expanded fleet and improved facilities. I visited recently and was told that they had a policy of using more experieinced instructors rather than recently qualified staff, which is good news for the student.

The other aspect of course is that a lower training cost leaves you more cash to use for flying once you qualify!

[kevkdg]

Can you still do a JAR PPL TMG from ab-initio or has that been replaced by the NPPL(SLMG)??

[TommyOv]

You certainly can do an ab-initio JAR PPL(A) TMG. The NPPL’s SLMG rating is just their equivalent rating, just as their SSEA rating is their equivalent to the JAR SEP rating. The main difference is that the NPPL SLMG rating comes under the control of the BGA (I think), whereas the JAR TMG rating requires instruction from a JAR FI.

[Whopity]

The main difference is that BGA Instrucor qualifications (MGIR) for SLMG are not recognised by anyone else, so make sure that you don't do 25 hours dual with a MGIR Instructor and then have to do it all again with a JAA/EASA qualified instructor.

[B4aeros]

MGIR & SLMG instructor ratings are not the same thing.

A BGA MG instructor cannot instruct for the purposes of the NPPL & you are unlikely to come across one operating outside of a BGA club. SLMG instructors ratings may be administered by the BGA but are recognised by the CAA.

What I don't know is whether NPPL SLMG training hours will count towards an EASA LAPL(A) licence if a pilot chooses to add an SSEA before converting to EASA. Even if they don't, an EASA LAPL TMG can easily be turned into an LAPL(A).

Since the OP is talking about doing a JAR TMG, the whole NPPL thing is moot.

[billiboing]

Hi Bouncibong,

Been following this with interest- and have to declare a vested interest as I own the said club.

Just wanted to say thank you to all the guys that have said nice things about us. There are a couple of things I can learn here- such as I never thought us NOT taking money upfront for a PPL course could be seen as being a negative. It appears it can be!

And just a couple of corrections- TommyOV- The Dimona we have is our own one- and Enstone have a different one, and Whopity- you are indeed correct- which is one of the reasons we use CAA and not BGA instructors. The BGA instructors can train however gliding exercises such as forced / field landings and do trial lessons.

Maybe I should double our prices and charge it all upfront and then go bust and run off with all the money? Seems that in this game you can never get it right!!!!!

Chris

:\

[172driver]

There are a couple of things I can learn here- such as I never thought us NOT taking money upfront for a PPL course could be seen as being a negative. It appears it can be!

I think you are misreading this. NOT taking money upfront is most definitely seen as positive attitude around here!

:ok:

[mad_jock]

Steakandchips nothing negative from me Sir.

Good on you for not taking money up front.

The only warning bell I had was at the course price but when you look into it you have a reasonable course and plan that makes sense.

I hope you prosper :ok: and many pilots enjoy there time under your stern CFI's eye ;)

[TommyOv]

Definitely something lost in translation there steakandchips! Nothing negative about your payment policy whatsoever!

I'm also an advocate of the TMG rating in general...I think that if more SEP pilots knew how capable modern TMGs are, we would quite see a few more PPLs going for the rating.

Keep fighting the good fight:ok:

[billiboing]

Just been doing some cost comparisons with 18 other flying schools around here- and taking the averages of the hire of a Pa28, dual, with one home based landing. There seems to be a wide variation, and whilst it is accepted that instrument fits will vary etc etc- taking the 18 as a average the costs are;

AVERAGE COST of a PA28 dual £181 per hour. (minimum found £135)
AVERAGE COST OF Flying school membership £197 per annum. (minimum found £100 per annum)

I know everyone will come up with cheaper places to fly etc etc. I was just interested in what the industry averages were at the moment.

A 50 hour JAR PPL on average would cost around £10k when allowing for exams etc etc.

But as they say- you can make figures say anything!!!

Safe landings guys.

[foxmoth]

And to think, when I did my 5 extra hours to go from Air Cadet scholarship to PPL it cost me £8ph IIRC! (That was a lot of money in those days though!)

[Say Cheese]

Thanks for the info on this. I am looking to start my training in the new year and obviously doing it this way sounds too good to be true with regards the price.

I was looking to do a NPPL with my local fixed wing Microlight club but this looks great.

Just a quick question though, if I get my PPL through these people and go TMG > Cessna can I then convert to a fixed wing microlight later if I want to?
Would it be easy enough to do?

[squawking 7700]

Whilst I've not flown with PFT at Hinton, Clive did send me solo back in 96 and so has a lot to answer for! - he's a genuine and honest bloke and if I lived nearer to Hinton I'd fly from there.


7700

[ChampChump]

Although my training on powered aircraft was before EASA and JAR etc., I believe that going from gliding to SLMG and then adding Group A was a more logical and affordable opion than the more obvious route. At the time, cost wasn't the main concern, although very important. I was simply seeing if I could go a bit further, nibbling a little more aviation cake.

Since doing anything in minimum hours is unlikely, I would counsel choosing a place where you can feel comfortable with the people, for it's the bits that you don't pay for that can make a huge difference to your learning. Osmosis is a wonderful thing.

A friend trained at Enstone and was very happy he did; way back when, I went to Rufforth which gave me some excuse for going oop north and experiencing somewhere different from my usual area. I did it in chunks, a week or a few days at a time and it worked out well.

But as you have discovered, ask a question on here and you will receive as many view as there are active forumites. Make a decision, enjoy yourself and come and play.