Eurolot pilots took off from taxiway

[mbar]

"Lost in the mist":
Wroc (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114883,10665317,Wroclaw__Piloci_zawieszeni__bo_zgubili_sie _we_mgle.html)

[PPRuNe Towers]

With luck, an automated translation:

Google Translate (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114883,10665317,Wroclaw__Piloci_zawieszeni__bo_zgubili_sie _we_mgle.html&usg=ALkJrhgSAyiH6d4nu7PnaPcb3tN8U60e0g)

[Dentist]

Crew has been suspended UFN. Reported metar was 350m, and the taxiway is only about 100m from the threshold. Hmmmm

[lomapaseo]

Did they atually liftoff or did they stop?

When did they realize their mistake?

Were any vehicles in the way, how close?

[arc-en-ciel]

from the Google picture on press article it shows a six month old picture, as you can see it is grass in front of the future terminal building ! (and construction of car park spaces on the street side). Furthermore this is the runway 11 (opposite direction) that you see.

Taxiway Bravo is a parallel taxiway to runway 11/29 , but since six month , and construction of the apron for the future terminal, it is not used and only half of it is used to park aircraft (on top of construction material this aircraft could have hit a parked aircraft on the taxiway...)

Anyway, from the actual stand/apron taxiway to runway 29 you do not need to use this taxiway, when you get out of the apron you just have to taxi straight to the threshold 29 a few hundread meters. by mid distance there is only one taxiway intersection at 90°, this is this taxiway bravo, BUT it has blue lights on the side, no markings, only 30m width, etc...

What surprises me the most it that Eurolot has a small network , just a few airports, they know Wroclaw very well, the design of the airport taxiway/runway/apron is extremely simple at Wroclaw, so taking off from taxiway bravo in WRO for a Eurolot crew seems really really strange !!
However I have already personnally see some Eurolot ATR doing some really really stupid and dangerous things... (like very very low pass, 10/20ft after airborne over runway Gear up with pax on board:=) I regret now not having made a report earlier :*

[mbar]

Yes, they actually did take off from taxiway.

[aterpster]

Reminds my of Conir 5191 at Lexington, Kentucky where they took off on the wrong (too short) runway and killed all souls aboard except for the undisciplined, none too bright, F/O.

A close professional associate of mine's brother-in-law was on that airplane.

Thanks, but no thanks to "Fresno Sewer Pipes" for me.

[Piltdown Man]

And another one... Punishing pilots won't stop this from reoccurring. We need something else before someone gets hurt. How about "rumble strips" (definitely not speed bumps) carved across taxiways. Just for the hell of it, you could make them say something (silly) in morse (like - .. -). Place them 50m from every exit and corner. Design them to make make a nice noise if you 'hit' them above 30 kts.

PM

[ZOOKER]

Did ATC have SMR?
Was there a pair of eyes in the VCR to monitor the SMR display?

[Kalistan]

A bad day for the pilots, thankfully no tragedy from this. A lesson and a reminder for us all; **** do happen every now and then...to mitigate the threats in such a scenario require utmost vigilance and discipline.

[M609]

Did ATC have SMR?
Was there a pair of eyes in the VCR to monitor the SMR display?

My guess is no, since regional airports of this size seldom have the funds for it.

[arc-en-ciel]

SMR ?!? man you are in Poland !! they don't even have radar (yet) for the approach in Wroclaw !!

It needs proper signs at WRO for taxiways (not so many taxiways in WRO!), hold short position illuminated on both side of runway(nothing on north side), a bloody centerline light on the runway, nothing more, well that means money, and in Poland they don't have much... (and some pilots to scratch their heads when they take off with blue lights on the side :confused:)
when you take off in low vis it is also wise to have the LLZ centered (WRO has ILS on 29)

There is a fantastic system with synthetic voice that says ("approaching runway XX", "On runway XX", I can't remeber the name of that system, I already heard it on a Luthansa 737, impressive ! (I think it works with localizers , not with Gps), both an excellent safety equipment for runway incursion and runways/taxiways confusions.

[Caboclo]

"Fresno Sewer Pipes"

I was not aware of any aircraft manufactured in Fresno. Please educate me.

[His dudeness]

arc-en-ciel, that system is called: Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS)

We have it in our little Cessna Citation Sovereign and when doing more than 40 knots on a taxiway, you get a real loud call "on taxiway, on taxiway".

I was just a software upgrade in our airplane (worth 23.000USD), apparently the EGPWS already has all required navdata to know when you´re not on a rwy...it uses the GPS actually. It also warns you when you approach a taxiway. (on approach)

SKYbrary - Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS) (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Runway_Awareness_and_Advisory_System_%28RAAS%29)

RAAS Certifications & Descriptions - EGPWS - Honeywell Aerospace (http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/Products-Services/Avionics-Electronics/Egpws-Home3/raas4/raas_certifications.html?c=21)

[aterpster]

Caboclo:

I was not aware of any aircraft manufactured in Fresno. Please educate me.

Yeah, right.

[arc-en-ciel]

His dudeness,
thanks for that, RAAS indeed, I would love to have this in my plane also, I will ask the management or the "authority", not so sure about the answer:(

[mini]

I think we need to forget ( about all these fancy GPS/What have you systems and get back to basics, where pilots actually piloted aircraft...

IE, be in the right place at the right time on you're own reckoning

Simplistic response but basically true?

[clivewatson]

RAAS! Another FLA (four letter abbreviation) that most airlines don't give a fcuk (FLA) about!

Can anyone here advise if they know of ANY airline that has RAAS installed?

No?.....Oh what a bean-counting surprise!!! :ugh: I bet most have never heard of it, or even know that it is equipped on a significant percentage of private/corporate jets.

As a pre-cursor to those who may wish to jump on the "how could this possibly happen at a single runway airport" bandwagon, I suggest, as a start, they acquaint themselves with the Jeppp or AIP plates of the airport, and the NOTAMS that were in place, before even THINKING of apportioning any blame. It will take more than a "casual briefing" to spot the potential traps that many of us may have missed at such a fully ICAO approved, licensed and compliant airport on this particular foggy morning.

As for the "localiser prior to line up" practice, do any of you have this as a SOP applicable to single r/w airports...in daylight? I doubt it.

There is much more to this story than meets the eye, and I have good reason, and hope, that this crew will not get hung out to dry.

Mini........you are a dork!

[Oakape]

Can anyone here advise if they know of ANY airline that has RAAS installed?

Emirates does.

[Dan Winterland]

In LWMO, our SOPs require us to check the LOC needle is central when lined up. That's a huge clue - the Airbus FBW types actually tune the ILS for you as an aid.

However, this is of course not foolproof. The crew of SQ6 which took off from a taxiway at TPE in about 2000 actually had manually tuned the ILS as per their SOPs because the ir LWMO instructed them to as they had Para Visual Displays (PVDs) fitted to their aircraft. The F/O pointed out that when they were lined up the PVDs were still rotating, the Captain chose to ignore the comment and the rest is history.

[RunSick]

Etihad does.

[Romasik]

Saudia does. Sometimes counterproductive thing, BTW. Goes off in the middle of the checklist or ATC takeoff clearance and screws up the whole process. Taking in account that average pilot never confuses the RW, then every takeoff RAAS message interfering with procedures and communication poses another safety threat.

[stepwilk]

I bet most have never heard of it, or even know that it is equipped on a significant percentage of private/corporate jets.

Nothing new about this. Corporate aircraft have since the days of On Marks been vastly better equipped than air-transport aircraft, It's infinitely easier for Larry Ellison to say "I want nothing but the best" for one or two aircraft than it is for somebody equipping a fleet of 300.

You can call them bean counters, but of course they make decisions that are far beyond your pay grade.

[fireflybob]

Can anyone here advise if they know of ANY airline that has RAAS installed?

According to this clip Alaska had it installed in 2008:-

RAAS

[Admiral346]

LH & CLH have.

[His dudeness]

think we need to forget ( about all these fancy GPS/What have you systems and get back to basics, where pilots actually piloted aircraft...

IE, be in the right place at the right time on you're own reckoning

Simplistic response but basically true?


Simplistic indeed. Having been in Wroclaw often, my first thought was: how could they? But we are all humans and maybe there is a pilot/crew that never make a mistake. I have yet to meet them, including myself here I have seen many mistakes made. Even by people I consider to be better pilots than I am.

Ground markings/signing is a huge issue IMO and the fact that these incidents happen time and again speaks volumes. Dunno about the ATR, but my airplane for example has no wipers, just a repellent on the shield plus a fan that clears a cigarette box sized part on the inner, lower corners of the windshield. Add light shining in your face and you see nothing.

BTW, if not knowing where you are wouldnt be an issue, EGWS would not have been developed, don´t you think?

[Akali Dal]

A bad day for the pilots, thankfully no tragedy from this. A lesson and a reminder for us all; **** do happen every now and then...to mitigate the threats in such a scenario require utmost vigilance and discipline.

Kalistan, you are too kind. Had this happened in India or the rest of Asia the skygods would have started the blanket wanton bashing of our pilots without mercy.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

And BA on new 777-300

[B767PL]

Well that may be because India has been receiving quite a bit of bad press, so it is no surprise some would react in this way.

[bakutteh]

Akali Dal, Kalistan's post is very refreshing and a welcomed change from all the usual crap driven ones from those miscreants with a holier than you facade.

The RAAS is really a wonderful tool; I just hope it doesn't lull us into absolute complacency or consign good airmanship to irrelevance.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Air China does on its latest A332s and some A333s.

[Admiral346]

The RAAS is really a wonderful tool; I just hope it doesn't lull us into absolute complacency or consign good airmanship to irrelevance.

Actually I think it is pretty bad. It constantly states the obvious "Approaching RWY 26R". By constantly announcing this, the perception of the "callout" slowly sinks towards the subconscious. I hope I will realise it calling out the wrong number, if it happens to me. It behaves as if GPWS would call a terrain warning on every approach. The only thing is the "on taxiway, on taxiway" call, that might save a bad one someday. I just find it psychologically underdeveloped.

It should be designed as an alarm system, that only speaks (warns) when something does not go according to plan.
Maybe you feed the taxiclearance into a box, and it should show you your position and route on the EFBmap, going into alert if you deviate from it.

Nic

[Oakape]

The other issue with it is that on certain runways it calls approaching the runway only after passing the holding point.

So it won't always protect from a runway incursion if you have missed the holding point in low viz conditions!

[Denti]

Maybe you feed the taxiclearance into a box, and it should show you your position and route on the EFBmap, going into alert if you deviate from it.


As far as i know a function like that is in development by LIDO for their EFB-users. Even a moving map with your actual position on an airport layout helps a lot in my opinion, actually more than RAAS but that is of course only my personal opinion.

[totempole]

Quote:
The RAAS is really a wonderful tool; I just hope it doesn't lull us into absolute complacency or consign good airmanship to irrelevance.



Actually I think it is pretty bad. It constantly states the obvious "Approaching RWY 26R". By constantly announcing this, the perception of the "callout" slowly sinks towards the subconscious. I hope I will realise it calling out the wrong number, if it happens to me. It behaves as if GPWS would call a terrain warning on every approach. The only thing is the "on taxiway, on taxiway" call, that might save a bad one someday. I just find it psychologically underdeveloped.

It should be designed as an alarm system, that only speaks (warns) when something does not go according to plan.
Maybe you feed the taxiclearance into a box, and it should show you your position and route on the EFBmap, going into alert if you deviate from it.

Nic


The poster said it was a wonderful tool, something to be used intelligently!:ugh::ugh:

[Antek22QR]

According to some Wrocław friends - the taxiway B, that was recently used as "RWY 29R" by EUROLOT's ATR-42, has presently only 1200 meters of "usable" length (due to current work on the new terminal building and the new apron facing it). There were luckily no planes parked on this taxiway on that particular morning (visiting aircraft are often parked there due to the shortage of other suitable parking spots).

[FBW390]

I've seen FOs helping truly well for taxing. And I've seen others unable to guide me with 10 Kms of visibility. Sorry, the ones in the second category should not be in that right seat! Simple! But somebody said they were ok in the sim and on the route check!:ugh::mad:
I don't want skygods but being able to read and understand a map and give directions is a minimum! Basics of flying, yes!

[arc-en-ciel]

what they call "recently" is years and years ago !

years ago, the taxiway B was the former runway 30 (it is 30m wide), and after the "new" Parrallel runway (58m wide) was built, at times of repairs of the 58m runway, the "old" runway (now taxiway B) 30m wide was used.

Due to magnetic variation over the years the axis was modified from 30 to 29

Nowdays taxiway B, still has the old marking 30 on it (hard to see in foggy conditions) another clue to avoid confusion.

If you know the place, it seems hard to believe to confuse a 30m wide taxiway with blue lights, no Stripes, no Runways entry signs, with a 58m wide amber/white lights, touch down zone markings and entry lights... but... they did it !! (and in 400m witch is not the end of the world !! 125m is really challenging..)

[Antek22QR]

Dear arc-en-ciel,
The most RECENT use of taxiway B (in Wroclaw) as the somewhat short and narrow "RWY 29R" was on the morning of November 11th, 2011, by the RPT aircraft ....

PS According to AOPA (US), 75 percent of runway incursions are caused by general aviation pilots (I being one of them).
Ask ATC - Progressive Taxi — AOPA Live (http://www.aopa.org/aopalive/?watch=htajN4MjpSrpPVcASOVvbdy3HLWIo3j4)
If the above is indeed correct, 25 percent of runway incursions (in the US at least) are caused by "the big boys and girls" that could offer fewer excuses for their mistakes (since they are, or should be, more thoroughly trained; they are usually more current; they usually operate with two pairs of eyes looking out of a cockpit; some of them are being helped by RAAS, etc).
PSS In the planes I fly I do not have RAAS helping me while taxing. Instead I have the old-fashioned airport charts (from Jeppesen :)).

[de facto]

I saw eurolot atr taxi then take off from a non lowvis airport in poland (krakow)when rvr was 200m at best.i was stunned when i saw them taxi just in front of my nose....:eek:

[chubbychopper]

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif[/IMG]
I don't want skygods but being able to read and understand a map and give directions is a minimum! Basics of flying, yes! ]


Yes, of course FBW390, you never made any such errors when you were first sat in the RHS as a prelude to becoming a skygod. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[chubbychopper]

This airport does not have any LVP's in place, or indeed centreline lighting....either taxiway or runway. It also does not have any system that records whether (or not) the taxiway lighting was operational (on or off) at the time. There are a number of other reasons (associated with "possible" non ICAO compliance) that readers may wish to consider before drawing any conclusions.........unless of course you happen to be real smart arses, and holier than all the rest of us mere plane drivers.

[Shell Management]

How can an airline turn a taxi way into a runway unilaterally?

[Golf-Sierra]

It also does not have any system that records whether (or not) the taxiway lighting was operational (on or off) at the time.

Guess that could explain it. With no lights on they weren't sure what it was so they assumed it might be a runway. They did manage to take off so they were almost quite correct.

They had a lot of luck nothing was parked on that taxiway (aircraft or construction equipment) .. or they knew the taxiway was empty and decided to take it - they were either behind schedule, in a hurry for some reason, would need to hold short on the proper runway, or did it for the sake of doing it. I'd go for deliberately - not based on my aviation experience (which is very modest) but based on my experience of the country and how things work there. I just wonder who busted them.

And before you all say that no commercial pilot would deliberately take off from a taxiway - well we all know that commercial pilots for example never bust minimums when landing in fog.

Golf-Sierra

[stepwilk]

or they knew the taxiway was empty and decided to take it - they were either behind schedule, in a hurry for some reason, would need to hold short on the proper runway, or did it for the sake of doing it. I'd go for deliberately - not based on my aviation experience (which is very modest)

No kidding. Who'd 'a guessed it.

[TBSC]

This airport does not have any LVP's in place


Just like any airports in Poland other than WAW...

[FougaMagister]

Some comments here are a bit harsh. Who can honestly pass judgment on this while pretending that they will never do the same over the course of a flying career? Never say never...

Of course, taxiways are lit differently, signed accordingly (or so one would hope), narrower, with no QFU markings etc. But with 400m of (decreasing) viz, pressure to go (get-there-itis), maybe confirmation bias too, plus maybe fatigue... who knows? It's easy to say "this will never happen to me" when one is flying to major airports with SMR, LVPs, follow-me vehicles, in a (higher) cockpit with a more comprehensive avionics kit. The only upshot is that the ATR42-500's take-off run with a mere 20 PAX onboard would have been only around 800-1000m, when Wroclaw's taxiway B is about 2000m long...

Looking at Jeppesen plate EPWR 10-9 (effective 22SEP11), one can picture the mistake: coming from Apron 1, the crew took the first right on parrallel taxiway "B" instead of the second right on runway 29.

Let's not forget that there have been red faces at KLM and Aeroflot recently for the same reason - in KLM's case, at their home airport (AMS)...

All the electronic gizmos in the world are no substitute for 100% airmanship.

Cheers :cool:

[TBSC]

the ATR42-500's take-off run with a mere 20 PAX onboard would have been only around 800-1000m, when Wroclaw's taxiway B is about 2000m long...

:=

Please check the picture in the avherald link. You'll see what's left of that taxiway after construction works of the new terminal/apron started.

Incident: Eurolot AT42 at Wroclaw on Nov 15th 2011, took off from taxiway (http://avherald.com/h?article=4464ec07)