Are qf shorthaul careers safe?

[ejectx3]

With all the hoopla surrounding the long haul pilots at the moment I'd like to get the opinion of you guys about the security and long term prospects of those of us on the qf shorthaul award.

I know it's conjecture at this stage but do you perceive shorthaul qf careers to be safer due to the fact we are not competing with Asian labour rates?

Or is it possible for jitconnict to eventually fly all qantas 737 routes and force us out also?

[SpannerTwister]

Have you not noticed the increased JQ flying ??

Any more questions ??

ST

[ejectx3]

Hmm..... yes I have noticed the odd Jetstar aircraft flying around....

[74world]

Ejectx3, yes the jobs are safe FOR NOW, the international positions are not!
Management will close down the long haul part of QF, the short haul guys are next...... :sad:

[ANCDU]

The 737 is a huge money spinner for Qantas, and part of that is the short haul award. Compared to the long haul award it's a dream for the company, I can't see it changing much in the next negotiations. The company may even try to put more domestic operated aircraft types on the SH award. Interesting times. Of course there is the Jetconnect and Jetstar factor.

[JohnMcGhie]

Your job as a pilot is secure for many years to come. People such as me will continue to need to fly, and will want a meat-based guidance system up front to point us in the right direction.

But I would be nice to the Chief Pilots at Virgin and Tiger if I were you...

Anyone who has lost a battle with an automatic teller, or ever owned a home computer, is unlikely to knowingly board an aircraft that does not have a pilot in it, and in control of it.

But our willingness to book on Qantas is not so high. I'm in the air in about three hours, and I wish it wasn't Qantas. If there was any other option, it wouldn't be.

Not so much because of industrial action, or the lock-out. More to do with old, dirty, noisy aircraft; seats that are designed to be uncomfortable, IFE that doesn't work, and cabin service from people who would rather not be there.

I can't imagine why any company would specifically design its product to be unpleasant for its customers. They obviously want us to go away...

So I wouldn't set your heart on "retiring" from Qantas, if I were you :-)

[Capt Kremin]

When do the short-haul negotiations begin? Next year?

OK... shortly we can expect to see press releases that short haul pilots are in cloud cuckoo land if they expect their outrageously expensive rates not to be aligned with overseas operators (like jetconnect).

This will be because Short-haul is losing money after the passenger downturn of 2011.

"Qantas short haul pilots need to realise that we must compete on a world market, particularly with New Zealand. Also, Tiger pilots earned 98% less than the top Qantas 737 pilot, who also flies only approx 4 hours per year (margin of error +/- 900 hours). These rogue kamikazes will not be permitted to put a veto on change and halt the inevitable rise of our bonuses."

Am I wrong?

[MTOW]

As early as 1990, a number of people with even a modicum of foresight were commenting that, after the Ansett and (then) Australian Airlines managements' undoubted overwhelming success in destroying the domestic pilots union, it would only be a matter of time before those same managements set about reducing the terms and conditions of both the international pilots and their highly paid newly-employed domestic pilots.

Managements' one error was to fall into the trap of believing their own propaganda during the head to head with the domestic pilots in that year we dare not mention here. In telling the public how few hours the average domestic pilot flew per annum, they set the bar for overtime to kick in for the new hires far, far lower than they needed to as they attempted to entice pilots to join or re-join the new 'lean and mean' domestic airlines. As much as they would have loved to renege on those (in their eyes) far too generous terms, they were stuck with them, for to have reneged, even three or four years down the track, would have been... shall we say 'industrially perilous'.

The way out was to create leaner, meaner (ie, LCC) versions of themselves. Australian Airlines (aka Qantas Domestic) created Jet*, which has slowly but inexorably intruded into both the Qantas domestic and international operations, with any growth in either division going to the far cheaper to operate Jet* rather than to the more expensive (dare i call them) legacy divisions.

I think it's only a matter of time until QF management reduces both Qantas Domestic and Qantas International into such small small 'rumps', (necessary - in management's eyes - only as long as they are tied by industrial agreements with staff unions or by government legislation), that those rumps can be safely (and quietly) shelved. then they'll probably re-brand Jet* as Qantas and Bob (or should that be Alan?)'s your uncle.

It's all been tried before. Look at the history of USALPA in the 1920s and 1930s. The Alan Joyce of the day back then could actually fly an aeroplane, but he was an equally divisive figure. His name was Eddie Rikenbacker.



Does that answer your question?

[fl610]

Kremin of the Star Corps - you have nailed it. As has MTOW.

[Motorola]

No one is safe.

[ejectx3]

Spot on Kremin.

What's the bet all the costs from this debacle will come from shorthaul now so suddenly we will see a huge loss in shorthaul.... :ugh:

[CaptCloudbuster]

Capt Kremin, you are not factoring in the cohesive industrial collective that is the SH Pilot body:rolleyes:

[fl610]

Of course, I forgot about that too! :rolleyes:

[Ramboflyer 1]

Unfortunately the self serving types at AIPA dont really care . They dont mind if the pay at Jetstar is half for basically doing the same job , because theyre not affected.
If AIPA cant increase the conditions in the subsidiaries then their own conditions can only go backwards or more flying to Jetstar.
Shorthaul guys have a lot to lose because of the greedy few at the top.
Watch Qantas argue in court that pay and conditions at Jetstar are acceptable to all pilots and should be the benchmark for new negotiations.

[CaptCloudbuster]

they set the bar for overtime to kick in

QF SH min guarantee is only 53 hours. Very favourable already toward QF. What is Jetstars / Virgins / Jetconnects? Anyone...?

[fatmike]

QF SH min guarantee is only 53 hours.

It's 58. It's easy to read the EBA you know.:ugh:

[FYSTI]

Fatmike, shows you didly squat. 58 hours is for 12 calendar months, 53 hours is for 28 day rostering.

Mr Borghetti says there was a 5 per cent difference between the salary of a Boeing 737 pilot flying a Virgin Australia aircraft and an identical pilot flying the same aircraft for Qantas.

We pay enough says Virgin Australia CEO (http://m.news.com.au/NationalBreakingNews/pg/0/fi906447.htm)


Here's a challenge for you FM. Here are the 3 EBA
Qantas (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097306/Qantas-Short-Haul-Agreement-2007)
Virgin (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097092/Virgin-Blue-Pilots-EBA-2007)
Jetstar (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097178/Jetstar-EBA-2008) - Jetstar roster build (http://www.scribd.com/doc/72097413/Jetstar-Roster-Build-Agreement-2010-1)

Go look at the EBA's and disprove Borghetti's statement. Please show us your work.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

It's 58. It's easy to read the EBA you know.

Indeed it is. It's also easy to read all the correspondence regarding 28 day bid periods.:ugh:

pay at Jetstar is half for basically doing the same job

And this:rolleyes: Well, it's simply not the case.

[FYSTI]

Today Qantas is bigger domestically than it has ever been. It has 45 per cent of market share domestically. It is the most profitable carrier operating domestically and we are growing it quite considerably.

Mr Alan Joyce, 4 Nov 2011 Senate Committee Hearing, page 32 (http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/s428.pdf)

[schlong hauler]

If Qantas puts the short haul award pay rate in the firing line then there will be a mass exodus. Everyones had enough. Going somewhere else is the hot topic and being part of the Red Q crap in Asia is for most the last place they will go. Stupid short term management is already starting to bite. Virgin is being actively considered by several F/Os that I know. They dont want to go overseas and will not consider the J* alternative due to the untrustworthy nature of the management and there contemptuous manipulation called market forces. If Qantas doesn't see the looming issue then they deserve what they get. How many pilots to retire in the next couple of years plus resignations for more rewarding pastures will create a shortage that will ensure that the short haul contract remains untouched. Extrapolate out the retirement/resignations data. The ball will be in our court. I have no doubt.

[TineeTim]

If Qantas puts the short haul award pay rate in the firing line then there will be a mass exodus.

Heard a very similar thing said a few years back. Except then the quote was something along the lines of-
'If jet* start operating internationally....'

Didn't happen then, won't happen next time.

[The The]

Is it possible that more senior Long Haul pilots could bump Short Haul pilots if there was a big reduction in numbers in Long haul?

As I understand it, if say the 747 fleet was completely retired and there were many redundancies, then the 747 pilots could bid back to A330, 767 and bump more junior pilots from those fleets all the way down the seniority chain? Would this apply to the 737 as well?

[Andu]

Capt Kremin, you are not factoring in the cohesive industrial collective that is the SH Pilot bodyShould that be followed by a "[/sarc]" note?

[Keg]

Is it possible that more senior Long Haul pilots could bump Short Haul pilots if there was a big reduction in numbers in Long haul?

As I understand it, if say the 747 fleet was completely retired and there were many redundancies, then the 747 pilots could bid back to A330, 767 and bump more junior pilots from those fleets all the way down the seniority chain? Would this apply to the 737 as well?


Yes, but with some caveats. Demotions due to fleet reduction create the same number of residuals as promotion. Thus, given given the significant amount of cross training that would result, there would be a very substantial cost to be worn by Qantas. My gut says that they'd offer targeted VR to certain categories and fleets in order to minimise the cross training.

[CaptCloudbuster]

My gut tells me Keg that there is no way QF will honor the current provisions and wear the cost of significant retraining. I know people are betting the farm that they will, I'm informed AIPAs position is still that the award will be applied.

Lockout was an extreme measure that was unlikely also...

There is precedent: Kendal Airlines.

[schlong hauler]

Not the case they are two different awards. You cannot demote and transfer to Short Haul. Read the integration document. The only way a long haul pilot can be transferred to short haul is if they bid for a vacancy if one exists. there are also protections in place for the average hours to be flown on an annual basis. The company has pushed these limits in the last year or so. Earnings are down 20% or so for Captains.

[empire4]

Seriously, if you don't like the conditions leave. Everyone complains and says there will be a mass exodus. Some how I doubt it. There are plenty of jobs all over the world including VA. Truth is QF pilots are on too good of a wicket to jump themselves.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Qantas eba based on 58 hours jq part time eba based on 56 hours is about half pay.
Forget the overtime ( which should be optional).

[FYSTI]

Truth is QF pilots are on too good of a wicket to jump themselves

Which pilots exactly - shorthaul or longhaul? Go back and have a look at my post #17 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/468583-qf-shorthaul-careers-safe.html#post6797511). Why don't you take up the challenge. Prove John Borghetti wrong - I've provided all the ammunition you need, if you think he is incorrect. Any shorthaul pilot, QF, VB, JQ, Tiger as well as the regionals work bloody hard. They earn their money.
QF,VB & JQ are much closer in pay than you think. When you take into account rostering limitations (or lack in QF's case) in the awards I would be extremely surprised to see any significant difference in the wages bill over a year for a given number of hours flown between the majors.

[OhForSure]

FYSTI: I would be interested to see that... :suspect:

[-438]

There is a difference in hourly rates. This doesn't tell the full story though.
Qantas SH pilots are very efficient and offer great flexibility from a Company point of view.
Shorthaul pilots can be flown to the full CAO exemption if required. However the minimum pay is based on 53 hours, which effectively means Qantas can furlough Longhaul pilots onto the shorthaul award and the only pay the minimum when QF have an excess of pilots, saving LH min guarantee payments.
Shorthaul pilots are paid schedule block hours, so if the engines aren't turning, they are not getting paid. If you can see a shorthaul pilot (in the terminal having a coffee or during a walk around or a preflight in the cockpit), that pilot is not getting paid. If you are in a holding pattern, shorthaul pilots are not getting paid.
If a shorthaul pilots flying gets cancelled when they arrive at work, they do not get paid.
Company figures I saw some time ago stated from memory around 95% of a shorthaul pilots pay is made up of this scheduled block hour pay.
Other airlines will pay extra for call out on days off, minimum daily credit etc.

[FYSTI]

-438, all correct, may I suggest one change:
If a shorthaul pilots flying gets cancelled when they arrive at work, they do not get paid.

should read
If a shorthaul pilots flying gets cancelled they do not get paid.

[-438]

Correct FYSTI.
Anyone who thinks Qantas SH pilots are expensive on an hourly rate basis should find a local tradie to do some work around their home.
I had a hot water guy come over the other day. $175 for first 45 mins, then $25 for each extra 15 mins.
Book keepers will charge up to $80 per hour these days.

[schlong hauler]

I believe QF shorthaul pay rate per hour to be higher but and it is a very big but there is a much lower min guarantee compared with the other two airlines. The last 12 months has seen a large decrease in flying. There is a greater risk to our pay hence the higher rate. For reserve call out we get 4 hours minimum or the stick if greater but only for the initial duty. Half of the block credit for passengering and 4 hours for sims. Thats it!

[pull-up-terrain]

Anyone who thinks Qantas SH pilots are expensive on an hourly rate basis should find a local tradie to do some work around their home.
I had a hot water guy come over the other day. $175 for first 45 mins, then $25 for each extra 15 mins.
Book keepers will charge up to $80 per hour these days.

And my mate works as a cleaner and earns $500k a year and my and my other mate is a boom gate operator and earns $200k a year. :E You guys must be doing it really tough.:E

[3 Holer]

MTOW are you serious?
.....after the Ansett and (then) Australian Airlines managements' undoubted overwhelming success in destroying the domestic pilots union,

The last time I looked, the AFAP was still very much in business, unlike Ansett and Australian Airlines and their superior "overwhelmingly successful" management!;)

[Andu]

Yup, the AFAP's "alive and well". Pity about the 1300 members who never got their jobs back - and I don't think the AFAP's seen too many dues from the 300+ domestic pilots who did get their jobs back.

...and if you take a look at the current QF board, you'll find a certain bow-tied gentleman still very much in evidence.

[Qanchor]

Management have been banging on all this time about how L/H is not profitable and S/H is.
Well dear S/H colleagues, in the 6,8,10 months prior to the S/H EBA negotiations, you will all of a sudden become unprofitable, and "changes will need to be made to ensure the survival of the airline". :rolleyes:
I'll bet my left one on it.

[benjam]

Mods,

Why haven't you sent this one to "DG&P General Aviation & Questions" as happens to every relevent question about virgin?

[ejectx3]

Hey I know shorthaul is the poor cousin to longhaul but we 'aint GA...yet...

[bddbism]

the aero club have their arms wide open for experienced guys wanting to go to CBR 8 times a day :}