Pilot Sentenced

[Rollingthunder]

Pilot sentenced to six months in prison for flying plane while drunk
By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 4:15 PM on 5th November 2011
A United Express pilot found guilty of flying a commercial flight while drunk will serve six months in federal prison.
Aaron Jason Cope of Norfolk, Virginia, was sentenced on Friday in Denver federal court.
Judge John Tunheim also ordered the 33-year-old to serve six months in home detention after completing his prison term followed by two years of supervised release.
Aaron Cope, 33, was co-pilot on the flight from Austin, Texas to Denver in December 2009 when the plane's captain smelled alcohol on his breath
Cope was convicted in June of flying under the influence on a flight from Austin, Texas, to Denver in December 2009.

The plane's captain thought he smelled alcohol on Cope's breath and a breathalyser showed Cope had a blood alcohol content of 0.09 percent.

The Federal Aviation Administration prohibits anyone from flying with a blood alcohol content of 0.04 percent or higher.
Cope was co-pilot on the flight of a regional jet with a 70-passenger capacity.
The plane Cope was co-piloting for the United Express Flight was operated by Shuttle America, a unit of Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings Inc.
According to court documents, the flight's captain, Robert Obodzinski, testified that although his co-pilot 'appeared to be thinking and speaking clearly, every few minutes during the flight (Obodzinski) detected an unusual odor, which he eventually concluded was the smell of an alcoholic beverage'.
When the plane landed in Denver, Obodzinski said he 'leaned over and took a big whiff' and ascertained that the smell was coming from Cope.
Obodzinski reportedly told Cope: 'If you have any problem taking a Breathalyser, call off sick and get out of here."
Cope replied: "Well, I guess I better call off sick then."
Cope was ordered to report to the U.S. Bureau of Prisons to begin serving his time by January 3, according to a statement from John Walsh, U.S. attorney for the District of Colorado.
'The public rightly expects that airline pilots will not drink and fly,' Walsh said.
U.S. District Judge John Tunheim pronounced Aaron Cope guilty in a 15-page decision issued after a non-jury trial in Denver
'Because flying while intoxicated is a serious crime and puts the lives of passengers and people on the ground in danger, we will prosecute it swiftly and effectively -- every time.'
In the decision in June, Judge Tunheim wrote: 'The court finds the evidence overwhelming that Cope was under the influence of alcohol during the flight.

'It is extremely fortunate, particularly for the passengers of Flight 7687, that there is no evidence of Cope making poor decisions, affecting safety.'
The plane Cope was co-piloting during the flight was operated by Shuttle America, a unit of Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings Inc.

United Airlines is a unit of United Continental Holdings

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Stupid boy.

[fly123456]

What's the limit for driving in the US?

[zondaracer]

It is now .08 for driving all across the US. It used to be .10.

[Ditchdigger]

It is now .08 for driving all across the US. It used to be .10.


Unless you are licensed to drive commercial trucks or busses.

If you hold a Commercial Driver's License, (CDL), the Federal limit is .04. In most, if not all, states, that limit applies even when you are driving your personal, non-commercial vehicle. Some states may have even stricter limits.

[jackx123]

The limit for driving is very individual and depends on various factors such as body weight, gender, etc.

The main issue people face is when they get caught.

DUI test Perfect Score - YouTube

[IcePack]

Cope replied: "Well, I guess I better call off sick then."

So why didn't he?

[Hotel Tango]

The guy deserved what he got. However, guilty of being beyond the legally permited limit, yes. Drunk, probably not.

[captplaystation]

A long time ago, one of the BA selection Q's was " you meet the crew in the hotel lobby, the Capt doesn't seem to be completely sober, what will you do"?
Of course the answer they wanted is that you were going to shop him, then contact your H.R specialist enquiring after his welfare & trying to ensure he received counselling etc etc. . . the usual politically correct stuff.
I wrongly (I suspect, with the benefit of hindsight) answered that I was going to suggest he called in sick & that I would be happy to confirm subsequently that he looked unwell, whilst making discrete enquiries of colleagues as to whether anyone had given them cause for concern in this respect, and if it seemed this was the case, having a quiet word with a company doctor.
Of course the real answer was, "well, if he is like that, WHAT state do you imagine I am in ? Hell, I just night-stopped with him! " how different were attitudes 25 yrs ago.
I am not bemoaning this change,I would question however, whether the rush to demonise someone who perhaps overdid it the night before,has been matched by widespred availability of a non-punitive system, to attempt to help people through whatever problems they have (& it is seldom just a desire to be a p1sshead, it is usually something far more serious /fundamental in their life)
Generally, responsible/educated individuals are aware of their obligations, and will not (except in rare cases by simple misjudgement) put themselves in this position, risking everything , just to have 1 last noggin.
25 years ago, everyone knew who the company "drinking men" were, it was not such a short list, and was seen more as the norm, than nowadays. The ones who were at the extreme end of the scale were also known, yet I never heard of anyone being counseled, for what was, in some cases, a fairly serious drink problem. I doubt if much progress has been made since then, the main difference being that checking/trapping has gone up the scale.
Our job & the nomadic life-style it imposes on many of us, qualify us as pretty hot candidates for this sort of thing. On the inevitable occasions when it goes wrong, it would be nice if the "holier than thous" could direct their indignation at tackling the problem, rather than simple admonishment of the individual.
"Play the ball, not the man" !

[davidjohnson6]

Out of interest - what will happen to Mr Cope in this instance ?
6 months in a federal jail, followed by 6 months of house arrest. His name will be all over Google for many years, so presumably major airlines will be loath to touch him.

Yes he made a mistake. Yes he could have done something stupid while flying and killed other people.

However, what happens to the rest of his life ? Will any aviation related company agree to hire him in a year's time, or is he going to end up flipping burgers for a living ?

[poina]

He made his choice, it's called responsibility. Flipping burgers is a living too.

[A and C]

Thank you for one of the most well balanced and wise post I have seen on these forums in a long time.

Its a real shame that wisdom like yours is in such short supply.

[Basil]

Obodzinski reportedly told Cope: 'If you have any problem taking a Breathalyser, call off sick and get out of here."
Cope replied: "Well, I guess I better call off sick then."
Yes, I didn't quite understand that either :confused:

[500N]

I didn't understand it either but how did he get breathalised if only he and the Captain knew ?

Did the Captain ask for him to be breathalised ?

[Airbubba]

I didn't understand it either but how did he get breathalised if only he and the Captain knew ?

Did the Captain ask for him to be breathalised ?

From the DA's earlier press release about the conviction:


...The captain of Flight 7687, Robert Obodzinski, sat in close proximity to Cope in the cockpit. Obodzinski testified that although Cope appeared to be thinking and speaking clearly, every few minutes during the flight he detected an unusual odor, which he eventually concluded was the smell of an alcoholic beverage. Upon arriving at the gate at Denver International Airport (DIA), Obodzinski leaned over and “took a big wiff.” Obodzinski testified that he concluded that the smell of an alcoholic beverage was emanating from Cope.

According to the facts presented during the trial, Obodzinski contacted dispatch to delay the departing 8:00 a.m. flight until the issue was resolved. While Cope went outside to conduct a post-flight inspection, Obodzinski spoke by phone with the acting chief pilot of the airline, his union representative, and a Human Resources Manager for Republic Airways, the parent company of Shuttle America. Once Cope returned to the cockpit, Obodzinski reportedly told him, “if you have any problem taking a breathalyzer, call off sick and get out of here,” to which Cope replied, “well, I guess I better call off sick then.” Obodzinski was directed by his company to escort Cope to an alcohol testing facility in DIA’s main terminal.

At the testing facility, according to testimony, Cope stated that he had gone to a bar with a friend and also purchased beer from a gas station near the hotel. On December 8, 2011, at 10:33 a.m. Cope was administered a breathalyzer test, which reflected his alcohol content was .094. At 10:54 a.m. a second “confirmation” test was administered, which reflected a .084 percent alcohol content.

United Express pilot found guilty of operating an aircraft under the influence of alcohol (http://www.justice.gov/usao/co/press_releases/2011/June2011/6_21_11.html)

[500N]

Thanks. That explains it.

[remoak]

"Play the ball, not the man" !

No, play the man. The ball doesn't fly the aircraft...

A lot of what you say is true, Capt Playstation, however the bottom line is that you can't have "drinking men" flying aircraft while under the influence... and lifestyle is a poor excuse for such behaviour - pilots know what is expected of them, it is drummed into them by regulation and company policy. Everyone knows the rules; only the truly foolish (or utterly helpless) risk their careers to feed their addiction. The world changed when those BA pilots got caught flying shortly after being filmed drinking.

If you can't exercise the required level of self-control, you should choose a different career (I suggest medicine, they all drink like fishes).

And yes, I too have sent a few people home when they showed up for work rather the worse for wear...

[cTcPilot]

Thats harsh!

Come on, who here hasnt been pissed flying?
I myself, was on a BENDER not so long ago, hotel room at 2am, up again at 4.30am, holding breath going through security in a London airport (as you do :p ) along with the other pilot. And that was after an 11 pint stella session!

The poor guys life is ruined. Captain must not have liked him!

[Airbubba]

Come on, who here hasnt been pissed flying?
I myself, was on a BENDER not so long ago, hotel room at 2am, up again at 4.30am, holding breath going through security in a London airport (as you do ) along with the other pilot. And that was after an 11 pint stella session!

That may still be the norm in some places overseas with a strong drinking culture, and, I have no reason to doubt your word, but those days are long gone in the U.S...:=

[Rick777]

Had someone else noticed the alcohol on his breath and reported him-That is what the capt noticed-The captain would have gone down too for not reporting him.

[merlinxx]

Room party :E

[kanetoads]

Notice how the captain had to call his union rep, chief pilot, and HR person..CYA, right down the line..probably because he flew with the guy FIRST, THEN decided AFTER the flight to bust him...

Captain probably could have gotten in trouble for even doing the flight...so he was probably playing the game of only noticing the stinker 'enroute'.

Anyway...at your typical airline interview these days, it's a crapshoot if they want you to turn the capt in, or let it go, or call the chief pilot. Every outfit is different...some looking more for robots then others...

[jackx123]

How can you smell an alcoholic bev after it's been consumed???

It usually takes on a different odor from my experience. Had his f/o flown another sector he'd probably been in the clear. 0.02/h down from .09

The Captain was after this poor dude's azz clearly. I've flown with some chaps in the past and asked them if they could read the check list - no worries.

[grounded27]

Wow what an ugly subject to talk about. Fact is the high stress of the job ranks among others probably in the top 5. It is easy to go out and drink to much and blow a .04 after 8 hours of sleep (the convicted was twice that after the flight). No doubt there are uncounted un documented cases where in these modern times many professional pilots have exceeded these limits on duty. As had been stated this professional heavy drinker was viewed as as competent in his duty despite his BAC level. We do not do this!

What bothers me is that the observant captain did not order him to to not fly as smelling alcohol on his breath pre-flight. I also disagree with the ignorant Judaical system for his criminal sentence. Something along the line of license suspension and rehab would have been sufficient. It would be a black mark on his profession none the less. Alcoholism is a developed disease. It is rare for the inflicted to ask for help due to the repercussions , this is a cultural problem.

[bfisk]

The Captain was after this poor dude's azz clearly.

Turning up drunk for work is simply not acceptable. If a captain had points out other forms of noncompliance (busting minima, continuing unstabilized approaches, what have you), is that also "being after some poor dude's azz"?

We all have professional obligations. When the crew fails to meet them it's is absolutely the captains prerogative, not to say responsibility, to enforce them.

It's not a matter of leniency and camraderie, this is about professional safety standards.

[ExSp33db1rd]

As a co-pilot my mate and I once over-indulged "The Lunch Time Beer" that one might partake of to assist the afternoon sleep prior to a nighttime departure.

We didn't consider ourselves drunk, but we sat at the back of the crew bus to avoid conversation, and when on the aircraft my mate, who's sector it was to navigate pulled up the curtain at the Nav. table and imbibed 100% oxygen,whilst I dictated the check list in the right hand seat as carefully as I could and avoided direct chat.

The Captain started up, pushed back, taxied out, lined up on the runway, then quietly said - You have control.

After I'd fought the beast to top of climb and engaged the autopilot, he said - You won't do that again, will you ?

I didn't.

[grounded27]

I wish this forum had a "like" option, I appreciate the very real and honest two post's above.

[Timmo5Y]

take his license away and hand it over to me.:mad:

[BEagle]

The Captain started up, pushed back, taxied out, lined up on the runway, then quietly said - You have control.

After I'd fought the beast to top of climb and engaged the autopilot, he said - You won't do that again, will you ?

I didn't

A similar thing happened to an ex-Captain of mine when he'd been a Brittania co-pilot. A night with too many beers and he turned up the worse for wear with a long trip ahead of him....

After the Captain had flown the take-off, he popped the autopilot in and handed control to my ex-Capt chum. Who then had to fly without the benefit of another pilot beside him for the next few hours - with an ever-worsening hangover. After eventually returning to his seat and taking control for the approach and landing, all the Captain said to my chum was "Learn anything today?"......

[doubledolphins]

About 20 years ago I reported for a ferry from a Large Airport in the North West, my base, to a Similar Sized Airport in the South East, the captains base. The Captain, who was quite famous for his boozing, had clearly not had too much sleep the night before. He Told me I could fly it down. I refused. I figured it would be better for me to monitor him and comunicate, rather than let him. But I really hoped he would go sick. He reluctantly agreed to fly. So I let him, remember it was only him and me on the aeroplane. He managed ok, but I think he leaned his lesson. He left shortly after.

But, and I ask you all to consider this. Very few aviation incedents indeed have had consumption of alcohol as a contributary cause, let alone a primary one. Indeed when I was working in my airline's flight safety office and reserched the subject, I could find only one such incedent involving a passenger carrying jet transport.

[Airbubba]

Out of interest - what will happen to Mr Cope in this instance ?
6 months in a federal jail, followed by 6 months of house arrest. His name will be all over Google for many years, so presumably major airlines will be loath to touch him.

Well, traditionally he might be able to quietly eek out an existence undetected flying night freight with a non-sked operation. However recent FAA background check requirements make that less likely.

That other 'last refuge of a scoundrel', expat flying, has given some a chance to rehabilitate their reputations and even embellish their qualifications, there is another thread here on that subject. Hey, it worked for me.:)

If Mr. Cope's former employer has a HIMS program (see: HIMS - A Substance Abuse Treatment Program For Commercial Pilots (http://himsprogram.com/) ), there is a possibility that he may be returned to his former position with seniority intact after serving prison time, going through rehab and perhaps earning all of his flight ratings from scratch. Lyle Prouse has posted here on PPRuNe about his pioneering return to duty after the infamous Northwest Airlines alcohol incident in Fargo, ND in 1990. A profile of Captain Prouse is here: Lyle Prouse (http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182955-1.html)

Prouse and his FE at the time, Joe Balzer have differing views of the events leading up to incident. Balzer currently flies for American Airlines and his version of the Fargo incident is given in this preview of his recent book: Flying Drunk: The True Story of a ... - Joseph Balzer - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=IDlSBMit40kC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false)

[JohnMcGhie]

Alcoholism is a developed disease. It is rare for the inflicted to ask for help due to the repercussions , this is a cultural problem.

Please allow me to quibble a little at the margins :O

In my personal experience as an alcoholic: Alcoholism is "a disease that develops". I.e. once you have it, it always gets worse. I believe that about 80 per cent of alcoholics acquire it genetically. We don't know how the other 20% get it. We do know that without certain genetic attributes, no person can swallow enough alcohol to pick up an addiction to the stuff! (I am massively over-simplifying here).

I suggest that it is indeed rare for the afflicted to ask for help: about 80 per cent of us die of the disease before we do that. And none of us do so willingly!

I personally did not "ask for help" until the pain of the repercussions exceeded the bliss available from drinking. I don't know any other alkies who did differently.

What's my point? My point is that alcoholics who survive this disease would be among the first to support harsh and inflexible penalties.

Because we know that without them, we will all die of this disease!

However, I suggest to you that many of these reports of booze in the cockpit are about non-alcoholics. Alcoholics expertly manage their booze consumption so they avoid the most obvious pitfalls. I drank for 26 years and never blew over the limit behind the wheel: alcoholics can do that.

Either way: my vote is keep the penalties, and make them inflexible: because my soon-to-become friends will die if you don't :-)

[TacomaSailor]

I hold a US commercial drivers license and do long distance charter bus operations. We are FORBIDDEN to drink any alcoholic beverage from 12 hours before a trip until we park the bus and leave the yard.

That means if I do a five day three state trip I can not drink alcohol for the entire five days! Three to five day trips are not unusual and it is a pain in the behind to not enjoy a beer for five days 'cause I drink a beer before dinner, wine with dinner, and a scotch after dinner every night if I am off for the next 12 hours.

The NO ALCOHOL rule is absolutely clear at the time we accept our assignments and there is absolutely no room for exceptions.

I am only responsible for 50 people and a 18 ton bus at 65 mph - why should you pilots with so much more responsibility think you should have lower standards than we lowly bus drivers?

It is appalling that any of you can even begin to make an excuse for this guy or consider there is any plausible explanation for his behavior.

And.. because I have a commercial license I am legally drunk at .04 blood alcohol level in any state in the US. Every state, if I am give an alcohol test, will report back to my home state and I will be held to the standards of that state - no matter what the law was in the state in which I was tested.

If I fail a breathalyzer I automatically lose ALL (private and commercial) driving privileges for one year and I will be unemployable as a commercial driver for many years. If the company does hire me - their insurance company will never provide insurance.

We do get random urine and blood tests several times a year - both when we report for work and when we return from a trip. There is no room for negotiations, no room for fudging, and no pity on the part of the company, union, or other drivers.

I'd expect no less from professional pilots.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

TacomaSailor,

I hold a HGV C+E licence (Artic, in case you Yanks call it something different), and I can tell ya, it's a lot easier to pull off flying an aircraft convincingly whilst drunk than it is a truck!!!

[OldCessna]

TacomaSailor

At the rate this economy is going you are probably doing better than the average pilot and with more resilience!

What causes people to seek solace in the bottle?

Crap economy perhaps?

[grounded27]

However, I suggest to you that many of these reports of booze in the cockpit are about non-alcoholics. Alcoholics expertly manage their booze consumption so they avoid the most obvious pitfalls. I drank for 26 years and never blew over the limit behind the wheel: alcoholics can do that.

A simple over the counter Breathalyzer would surprise many to their BAC in the morning. Not a pilot but as regulated as an AMT I learned my limit this way. The 12hrs bottle to throttle guideline does not work. Size, weight body function.. To many variables.

[smith]

“if you have any problem taking a breathalyzer, call off sick and get out of here,” to which Cope replied, “well, I guess I better call off sick then.” Obodzinski was directed by his company to escort Cope to an alcohol testing facility in DIA’s main terminal.

I still don't get this, the cpt seems to give him the option of calling off sick and goinh home rather than take a breathalyser test, then when the FO says he better call off sick the cpt escorts him off the plane for the breath test??????? I still don't get it, what was the point in the captain offering the option of calling off sick and getting out of there?????:yuk:

[Landflap]

Smithy, see "Airbuba" on page one. Looks like Skipper already reported him to the company, union, welfare and anyone else who would listen before returning to the cockpit and offering poor old cojo the option ! Remember too that we are commenting on 'alledged' reporting by the media. They sometimes get it wrong. Like others, I too have faced the problem. At Base, easy. Downroute with 10 hours ahead and no replacement, some careful judgement. No covering the out & out drunk looking to punch everyone in sight & grabbing at every ass (male & female), but the odd rolling of the eyes, slight whiff, "Before shtarts complete" instead of "Before starts complete" requires the Command judgement for which we are all paid fortunes for.........................yeah right !

[aterpster]

grounded27:

A simple over the counter Breathalyzer would surprise many to their BAC in the morning. Not a pilot but as regulated as an AMT I learned my limit this way. The 12hrs bottle to throttle guideline does not work. Size, weight body function.. To many variables.

The average pilot would really had to have tied one on to have much of a BAC 8 hours after the last intake, much less 12. What is bad is the hangover and its negative effects on performance.

[Golf-Sierra]

I still don't get this, the cpt seems to give him the option of calling off sick and goinh home rather than take a breathalyser test, then when the FO says he better call off sick the cpt escorts him off the plane for the breath test???????

The F/O had in fact confessed by this that he was fully aware that he is intoxicated and above the limit for flying.

[gulfairs]

It looks like the captain had a vendetta against this chap, maybe he stole his chicK the previous night.
I do get vexed when I read the holier than thou reports.
There would not be a pilot in the world (except those that do not take alchohol at all for any reason) that has not been on a bender of some sorts and then had to go to work.
I have done it and had a real hard day, and when I was a captain, I had the odd co pilot who had been on the booze up to the legal 12 hour bottle to throttle rule and still reeked of booze.
My responce was dependant on the route to be flown etc,but it was usually TFN on this leg.
We will have a parley about this at the end of the day.
At this point I become very biblical.

HE WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE.

[BandAide]

I like a tipple and enjoy happy hour at the end of the day. Consuming alcohol (for now) is a legal and centuries old tradition. We of the libertine persuasion simply find ourselves in an age of puritanism, which rears its ugly head from time to time.

The rules are quite clear. You can drink to a point and then must stop if you are to perform your job, legally and safely. If you can't do that, you need to either seek help, reach deep down into your own resolve to get a grip, or let the flying profession go.

I submit that maybe 90% of the fun in life is built around alcohol, but so are 90% of the problems. If you like to drink, you always need to be mindful that you don't come to like to drink too much, and endeavor to keep a handle on it.

I like to drink, but I've never had to worry about getting a breath test because I have always strictly adhered to the alcohol rules, which is all I allow anyone to ask of me in that regard. It's also all I demand of the other pilot, but I do demand it.

[grounded27]

The kicker is that if a occasional drinker goes on a binder and sucks down 20 drinks he would be absolutely useless the next day or in a coma. If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations. Doing 3 years in prison for being a social deviant who did no harm to anyone seems excessive.

[TacomaSailor]

grounded27:

A recently published article in a professional health journal says:

"Our findings indicate that the motor component of information processing recovers during declining BACs, but it appears that the cognitive effects of the drug linger well after motor performance is back to drug-free levels," said Schweizer. The reduction in motor impairment as BACs decrease could create the illusion of complete sobriety and prompt the undertaking of activities requiring cognitive processes that are still greatly impaired....

The mismatch between motor and cognitive recovery … creates special hazards that may have implications for accident risks. A drinker who is about to drive a vehicle immediately after recovering from a drinking episode may be more dangerous than while actively drinking because they mistakenly assume they're okay."

The problem presented by your attitude “If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations.“ is the major problem that must be overcome to diminish the risk of alcohol induced transportation accidents.

The “experienced” drinker has only learned to hide his symptoms but every piece of research ever done shows that the motor and later the cognitive impairment is still present - long after the “experienced” drinker is positive he is 100% sober.

I am no prude and am a very “experienced” drinker who has been told more than once by their physician to lighten up on the alcohol. I do enjoy more than one drink and will always have more than one – EXCEPT – when I am driving my bus. It is then a minimum of 12 hours if I’ve had 2 drinks and 18 if I’ve had more.

That blood test at 6 AM signon might trip me up the night after some fun – my 2nd career is then over.

[grounded27]

You are sort of living proof to what I had been hinting at. Where do you think a doctor is going to find an expert drinker? Who will admit to their actual consumption? The liability of health insurance and keeping your job prevents most all heavy drinkers from asking for help if they can not quit. Most regulate in the business of aviation to their legal limit. Published medical journals are bias as our society even out of aviation will not give them a true platform of regular people to judge from! Like said above heavy drinkers calculate and manage their lives. It is only the idiots that are like the POI of the thread starter that bring light to the issue.

[anengineer]

Surely in this day and age, with all the technological advances in aircraft and the operation thereof, it's not too far fetched to impliment a system that stops the folks controlling these fantastic machines from being off their trolleys on fermented vegetable matter whilst in the cockpit ?

i.e. compulsory breath tests for every pilot before every flight.

It takes seconds to perform and would eradicate all risk of any pilot taking control whilst over the limit, and all the associated "tell or don't tell" moral wrangling.

There can be no justifiable argument against this.

[poina]

Sure this would work. Perhaps we could start on politicians, doctors, lawyers, bankers, teachers, dentists, and every swinging d!ck on wall street.
No one is as regulated as airline pilots, pee tests at the gate, every six months at the medical, etc.
I for one don't think we need any more regulation, perhaps more personal responsibility.

[Sqwak7700]

There can be no justifiable argument against this.


Fine by me, but they should also check alertness levels to prevent operating while fatigued, which can be just as impairing as controlled substances.

If alcohol requires such a solution, then surely fatigue should as well. After all, fatigue has been a contributing factor in a huge number of accidents. Alcohol has only been a factor in very few, I can only think of one (Aeroflot Nord 737-500 spiral in Northern Russia).

Oh, I forgot, we want to give the illusion of doing something as opposed to actually improving the situation. :hmm:

[mutt]

Airbubba, thanks for the book reference, it makes interesting reading.

[captjns]

Why not BAC every pilot and cabin crewmember while reporting for work. It’s done in many countries and proves quite reliable. While at it why not the ground engineers too. Perhaps it may give those dependent to think twice before doing the old twelve ounce curl.
As for te F/O... he's probably better off not being in the cockpit. Not saying that jail tme willdo him any good.

I'm curious to know what took the skipper so long to realize the F/O was still three sheets to the wind? Shouldn't he share in some of the blame?

[Airbubba]

Airbubba, thanks for the book reference, it makes interesting reading.


Captain Prouse's one star review of Balzer's book may be found here on the right hand column of the page:

Amazon.com: FLYING DRUNK: The True Story of a Northwest Airlines Flight, Three Drunk Pilots, and One Man's Fight for Redemption (9781932714715): Joseph Balzer: Books

[Rananim]

Crews should self-police first and foremost.The next line of defense should be in-house with one free warning.Then the TSA.This never happened in the past because crews always took care of their own.But we werent politically correct way back then and there was no TSA.Just like the security issue for crews,its a sign of the times.

[G-HALE]

@captjns
""Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
Ben Franklin.

[Bishop of Hounslow]

A tricky one. I daresay many pilots, particularly those over 50, will have imbibed the odd potion or two within 8 hours of report. Nonetheless, the world has changed and no one can reasonably argue that they have not been warned of the consequences in this day and age. In years gone by men doing unspeakable things with men would have got a jail sentence. Today they can get 'married', you will be berated for doing 32mph in a 30 limit, nobody cares if you take drugs for 'recreational purposes' and drinking and flying is seen as a grievous crime. No doubt we all have our own views on each of these matters, but these are the rules that we have to work within. You cannot help but feel a sense of tragedy for the individual concerned, but he cannot say he did not know the deal. Also, in the Captain's defence, he did not come to work looking to shop someone. He was faced with a nightmare situation - he is damned if he does and damned if he does not. Not to report such an incident is a sackable offence and to report it makes him a pariah - an unenviable position indeed.

[Herod]

Rule is rules. When I did my military training, a lot of the older instructors were ex-WW2, and we were expected to "be in the bar until it closes, breakfast at 7, brief at 8, airborne at 9." Then it was an 8 hour rule, or generally 3 hours per pint (remembering that you are processing the early ones while still drinking the later ones). Then it became 12 hours. Once the random testing was introduced, I stopped drinking a minimum of 24 hours before duty, since the AME had told me traces sufficient to ground you can be detected up until then. It meant really only drinking on the first night of a two-day weekend, but that was the only way to stay clean. Thankfully I'm now retired and it doesn't affect me; the bummer is I'm on medication which prevents any alcohol being taken.:{

[ExSp33db1rd]

The breath test at the boarding gate wouldn't have stopped the bottle in the briefcase being taken into the toilet before top-of-descent ( and no, my lips are sealed and of course I have no proof) but I guess the TSA would now ensure that only 100 mls. of the stuff would be carried aboard anyway !

It is rumoured, and alleged, that a certain airline from a country known for its' fine wines allowed some of its' products as part of the crew meal ? ( we are talking Rumours as well as News, aren't we ? )

Bombay was a 'Dry State' but alcohol was rationed officially to registered alchoholics, and on a 5 day forced alcohol free slip, it was not occasionally unknown for crew members to register as such. Getting off the aircraft one day a crew were passed such a certificate with some beer allowance still remaining, which, the departing crew suggested, would alleviate their coming forced teetotal misery.

At the hotel they practised forging the applicants signature shown on the document, and him who best copied it was sent forthwith to the Customs store to purchase the remaining beer allowance,whereupon the Guardian of the Beer said .... funny, Captain XXXX left for Hong Kong this morning, now if you want some beer, just pay me an extra 5 rupees a bottle ( this was some years ago you understand ) and you can have what you want without the need for any certificate.

Problem solved.

[merlinxx]

Maybe you've seen this film ? If not you, and all the rest here should.

"The Pilot" with Clif Robertson (he flies his own Pits in the movie) They used an ONA DC8 with an ONA crew:ok:

Comments folks when you've watched it, or have already:D

[captjns]

G-HALE quotes

""Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
Ben Franklin.

I’m not quite sure where you are going with your citation of Benjamin Franklin.

However, when one signs on the dotted line for employment with a carrier, that individual promises to follow the SOPs, contained within the company’s manual system which includes the Company Ops Manuals.

There are certain liberties are surrendered when one accepts the job… ranging from when must report to work to consumption of alcohol and drugs. Also, Company Operations Manuals at former and current carriers contain language concerning random BAC and drug testing.

At the end of the day, are we really sacrificing liberty for security for the sake of safety of opertation of a flight?

[aterpster]

captjns:

At the end of the day, are we really sacrificing liberty for security for the sake of safety of opertation of a flight?

Virtually every worker in all fields agrees to conditions of employment. I am sure most, if not all airline employment agreements limit what you can say publicly about your airline, and so forth.

[Obi_Wan]

To anengineer,

Yes there are technologies that can be implemented to stop any user (pilot, driver, machine operator) from using any item by means of a breath test.
In Europe much work has been done on hard wiring breath test machines in to cars, but they are all too flawed.

The technology cannot differentiate between alcohol on your breath from a "night before"' session, and the mouthwash you've just used.
An for the more lateral thinkers, you can always get someone else to blow in a tube. That is unless you want an officer with a special blow-into-my-bag testing all flight crew as they put their socks back on after going through the airport scanner.

[Springer1]

"Airbubba, thanks for the book reference, it makes interesting reading."


The capt had a colorful personality that some avoided prior to the '90 incident.

Glad it turned out well for both of them.

[ponshus]

We all condemn the man for flying whilst drunk. How about flying when tired? It's just the same but deemed to be OK. I have many a time broken cloud before dawn to face a wet runway and crosswind landing when I have been in a far worse state than four pints of beer produces, just due to tiredness.

Ponshus, retired thank God.

[NordicMan]

Well said ponshus!

[Craggenmore]

Pilot sentenced to six months in prison for flying plane while drunk
By Daily Mail Reporter

And this made 3 pages :D

[gingernut]

(I suggest medicine, they all drink like fishes).
:D

In the words of the late Bernard Manning, "drink and drive if you want to, nothing worse than being in a smash, sober...."

[slowjet]

Nice way to close the 13th, Ginger. Always up for a laff. As I stumbled out of my fave drinkin hole, tried to put the keys in the slot, cop comes up to me & says " I hope you are not planning to drive ? " " Of course I am ", said I, " I am too pished to walk" !! Boom Boom !

[NutLoose]

Poor guy, what a shame to throw itvall a way over a beer, Will his loss of licence insurance cover this out of interest (if he had any)

One could also say, how many pilots in the last 10 years of aircraft crashes were under the influence and how many sober?, one bets that statistic will show it is safer to fly drunk.

As the UK drink driving deaths.....

• Nearly one in six of all deaths on the road involve drivers who are over the legal alcohol limit.

;)

[IcePack]

So 5 out of 6 were sober? better drive drunk it's safer;)

[captjns]

NutLoose laments...

Poor guy, what a shame to throw itvall a way over a beer, Will his loss of licence insurance cover this out of interest (if he had any)


How about stupid ba$tard:*??? More appropriate term given the circumtances.

Loss of license insurance:D:D??? I wish it would cover for this type of loss of license. I think many would raise a glass to the honor of the stupid ba$tard:ok::}.

Then talk about a pilot shortage:E.

[Shell Management]

Six months seems a bit slight compared compared to the motoring world.

I hope the airline has taken action over the Captain's lack of situational awareness.

[captjns]

As this story made the press, you can be assured the travelling public won’t be seeing this miscreant on a United Express, or any other US carrier for the foreseeable future.


This event will no doubt appear on the list of his “FAA Violations and Actions” file.


That said, even his chances for employment overseas are down the drain too.


Yep… the world of aviation is now a safer place with one less toper out of the cockpit.

[NephewBob]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

I think what G-Hale was actually saying was "Innocent until proven guilty"

Mr. Franklin did not subscribe to "democracy" (No objections to free elections) "Do we have a democracy Mr. Franklin?" they asked after a lengthy constitutional convention. "No Sir, you have a Republic...if you can keep it!"

If we all hell bent on reversing (random searches, drug/alcohol tests without cause etc) that pillar of civilzed society.....then watch out!

[Shell Management]

The passengers were lucky, everyone died in this accident when the pilot was under the influence of drugs and booze


http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_030/nn_226462/EN/Publications/Investigation_20Report/2009/Report__09__3X178__KingAirF90__Egelsbach,templateId=raw,prop erty=publicationFile.pdf/Report_09_3X178_KingAirF90_Egelsbach.pdf

[exeng]

Your quote is in regard to PPL's - not Professional Pilots - as such I do not see the point of your post.

[captplaystation]

The point of his post, like most of his posts on here, is to stir cr@p up & berate pilots whilst trumpeting the high health & safety standards & work ethics of the oil/gas industry.

Agenda ? bigoted ? frustrated pilot training reject ? or just a pain in the hole?

Have a read of previous posting history & make your own mind up.

[dwshimoda]

A nice headline grabbing statement again by you.

As has been pointed out, it was a PPL operation.

Also the drugs involved were anti-Parkinson drugs (I do not off hand know whether these are allowed by an AME or not) and the alcohol was:

The deceased was probably under the slight influence of alcohol; the alcohol con- centration in the blood was 0.250/00, the concentration in the urine was 0.020/00.

So not ideal conditions for flight, but not quite the "drugs and booze" fuelled flight you are trying to make it out to be.

[DX Wombat]

Exeng, PPL holders can be perfectly professional pilots just as some Commercial pilots are not professional - there is a difference (and I don't mean in the licence held.)
The reaction on here to Commercial pilots who are convicted of flying with alcohol levels above the legal limit never ceases to amaze me. ANY pilot who flies in such a state is breaking the law and acting unprofessionally just as any driver breaking the legal limit would be. There is, therefore, no good reason why a pilot should be treated more leniently than a driver. NONE WHATSOEVER. It isn't just pilots who can lose their livelihood by having such a conviction, it happens to drivers too but for some reason a convicted driver doesn't attract an outbreak of hysteria demanding that (s)he should be treated differently. It's time to stop this ridiculous attitude and the pathetic attempts to justify the unjustifiable. If you have been drinking you should not fly/drive/operate machinery/ go to work if you are a doctor/nurse or other person in a position involving the care of other people etc. The same applies to those who take drugs.
Before anyone asks, I have never drunk alcohol and driven, flown or gone to work, nor do I have any convictions for doing so. I do think such people should be offered as much help as possible. I also happen to think that discussing a case before it has been to court is not sensible as a wrongly accused person can have his or her life ruined by such speculation - the old "There's no smoke without fire" saying. I also have absolutely NO problem with people enjoying alcoholic beverages - just not to the extent where they affect others.

[LProuse]

Balzer's book is a disturbing example of self-delusion and his account, which included portraying himself as the victim of a tyrannical captain (me), provoked a firestorm of letters from NWA pilots and Flt Attendants.

Some 67 letters went to the publisher but the most telling of all was a single letter from the President/CEO of NWA (at the time of the incident) that said if even a miniscule bit of his portrayal of me had been true I'd never have been brought back to fly at Northwest.

I later (Nov '11) published a memoir entitled "Final Approach" in which I told the nakedly true story of what took place, which includes my role in it. I make no excuses, blame no one, and I lay it all out as it actually occurred. Unlike Balzer, I did not take any creative license and manipulate the truth and the facts.

His account is so horribly fictitious with invented events that never took place and conversations that never occurred, that I was hard-pressed to find anything at all that was marginally recognizable from the standpoint of truth. And even then, they were so hyper embellished and exaggerated that they did not fall within the zone of truthfulness.

Balzer has since fallen on some more hard times of his own making but I wish him well. No one enjoys watching someone suffer...but he's been his own worst enemy since our fateful flight.

[Sillypeoples]

FOs showing up drunk...Captains ratting out their FOs...