ATC south Europe

[Viking101]

So a question for you guys on the other end of fq...

I wanted to know if there are any plans to change language between ATC and flag carriers in south Europe?

I know it was discussed a few years ago in France, due to the accident at CDG were ATC and aircrafts got confused with the change of language and wrong terminology used.

Last months I have realised that Italian ATC has started communication in English, which makes it a bit easier to follow other aircrafts and what they are doing.

Spain no change, and France not at all.

I think its a safety issue which needs to be addressed. I dont know how many times per day I hear ATC controllers needing to think about which language to use, and when others are around me I want to hear what they are up to.
Today I am blind apart from TCAS and visual if available, and totally deaf!

Any comments on plans or news for a change to standard english?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

As far as I know ex-YU(SRB,CRO,SLO,BiH,MAK) region is not at that sothern lists.

But if anyone needs local language we may provide it :} . "Papers" require translation if "....any acft concerned..." Easy and it works pefrectly.
AS we have already dicussed here on pprune, solution that only english is available is not legal.

Because of the constitution issues.

Each country has constitution , where is declared officila language. Everyone has a right to get answer or to ask any public institution on that language. ATC as public service must obey to that rule.
So we must offer service on the same frequency service at both languages. Translation is safe net, and is mandatory.

why such problem exists at such high level at some other coutries I do not know?

Probably pure numbers and lack of available time for atcos to translate.
when you have six airfrance captains( who are french citizens by the way) and one british airways, of course that BAW captain will notice that " too many non english conversations..."

Here at Balkan you have six Lufthansa' planes and one local( under direct Lufthansa control :E) so everyone speaks english ;)

Pure example a few years ago at Sarajevo. "evening hub"
1.Lufthansa
2. Austrian( lufthansa is owner for those misinformed :p)
3. Croatia ( Lufthansa is not owner but acts as it is:E)
4. Adria ( see under No3)
5. BH airlines ( property of Turkih airlines, who works closely with Lufthansa :})
6. BH airlines (property of Turkih airlines, who works closely with Lufthansa:})
7. JAT ( indepedent at level that Lufthansa allows :E)

and sometimes, Condor, charter.....

[Viking101]

I still don't understand why most countries speaks English to even their own country men, although it's not their natural language.

The whole Scandinavia, Germany, etc it's all the same. And it keeps everyone in the same picture.

To be honest, it's annoying having Atc controllers mixing languages when it's busy, keeps you blind and deaf. And that's how accidents occur...

So I guess there will never be a change unless another accident happens huh. Same story, never that someone will be proactive.

[eastern wiseguy]

I still don't understand why most countries speaks English to even their own country men, although it's not their natural language.


Perhaps I misunderstand but as you alluded to earlier but

Today I am blind apart from TCAS and visual if available, and totally deaf!

It's all about situational awareness and using a common language that crews from more than one country have been trained to use.

[eagleflyer]

I even find the occasional German RT (to VFR traffic) harder than the usual English phraseology. It´s just normal for us to communicate in English...although from time to time we also use our mother tongue, e.g. to describe the medical condition of a passenger etc.

[Blockla]

It's all about situational awarenessOff topic...

So what happens to situational awareness when CPDLC and other methods of passing information between consoles and cockpits is more commonplace?

[Viking101]

Those kind of cases are absolutely fine, of course.

I am more talking about everyday radio terminology, people requesting speed changes, altitude changes, reporting turbulence etc... All info that in important for everyone around.

Anyway, I guess I just have to continue looking at my TCAS and hope for the best in France...

[p_perez]

Hola!

Keep in mind that we ATCO´s use the language that the pilots start RT with. We can not make a pilot use Spanish or English if he doesn´t want to, but we have to use one or the other if the pilot makes that choice.

Many times I would prefer to use only English, specially in very complicated and busy moments, instead of having to remember which language each pilot chose to use.

In short: it´s not always us ATCO´s who to blame if English is not used in all RT.

Saludos!

[Denti]

Simple, only answer in english.

Anyway, in germany it's law that IFR RT hast to be provided in english, for VFR german is allowed. I guess it is pretty similar in scandinavia, always a pleasure to fly there with very friendly and professional service.

I know the DFS took some already licensed ATCOs in during the last few years, if i remember it correctly it was mentioned in "transmission" that those that didn't speak german were limited to upper airspace only until they learned enough german.

[samotnik]

> Simple, only answer in english.

Well, it's not that simple, indeed.

[Lssar]

Maybe in Germany it is by law that all RT has to be in English: In Spain, also by law, a pilot has the right to use Spanish or English at own discretion, and we Spanish ATCO´s are not the ones who will work against the Spanish law ...

Maybe, if I ever apply to the DFS, I would only have to use English, would be happy to!

Saludos!

[BrATCO]

Blockla,So what happens to situational awareness when CPDLC and other methods of passing information between consoles and cockpits is more commonplace?
Not really off-topic IMHO.

CPDLC comes with electronic stripping (or stripless control) which, as far as I understand it, means no more overall comprehention of the global situation, even for the controller.
That's the way things are meant to be : building control strategies is considered as a waste of time, thus productivity. "Anti-collision" is much more efficient when talking about capacity.

CPDLC should be implemented all over Europe before February the 7th, 2013. Who will care about pilot's situational awareness when the controller has lost it ?

Viking101, Just a thought about use of common language : controller and both crews were talking English over Uberlingen... where was situational awareness then? There are loads of exemples proving one thing and the contrary.

Very, very often, traffics are separated without even being on the same frequency (phone co-ordination between sectors). Who cares then whether controllers speak English, German, Spanish, French or Javanese ? The pilot won't have a clue anyway.

Pilots are there to aviate, navigate their own acft.
Controllers have the situational awareness in regard of the surrounding traffic, they assist pilots in their needs (including information about essential traffic and weather conditions in the appropriate language) and everything goes well.

Swapping roles only complicates things.

Meanwhile, I agree pilot's situational awareness is a must-be in non-controlled and/or non-separated areas.

[A7700]

"I know it was discussed a few years ago in France, due to the accident at CDG were ATC and aircrafts got confused with the change of language and wrong terminology used."

When 55% of the traffic radio exchanges is performed between native french speaking ATCOs and pilots why would you like that they use a third part learned language that will decrease their ability to express their real time meaning and understading ?


"and when others are around me I want to hear what they are up to."Because you are so arrogant to think that to hear - because you do'nt monitor-some bribes of phraseology exchanges gives you situational awareness ? you are missing a lot of understanding in the ATC job

"The level of safety requested by ICAO for ATC management do not request that a clearance given to a dedicated crew shall to be listen and understood by the other crews in the same sector"

"Any comments on plans or news for a change to standard english?"

What is standard english ! Its one of the few language which is not protected by a national language Academia and can be always interpreted in different ways by even native speakers. Even British ALPA criticize the "english" used by some foreign countries ATC, even if it is their national language.
If ICAO should have done his job and performed a safety case on the choosen ATC language, english should not have been choosen at all. For example german is much more strict and clear and is not bogged down by hundred different accents

The concern is not safety. It's just an arrogant and devious way to take over some market place by the capitalist money makers...

[Viking101]

Well, clearly to avoid accidents as stated above. Dont really understand your way of reasoning. Whether you speak 35% or 75% native language, the second language used and in this case english should be at a minimum expected level for all of us involved. Dont you think? :rolleyes:

Safety is our concern. Do you not agree. :sad:

When ATC workload gets high, mix that with bad wx and having a guy constantly switching languages, it does go wrong. And instead of as you said, "decrease their ability to express their real time meaning and understading" it goes the same way but in english.

Dont think german is more strict than english at all. You dont think they have accents? Hahahaha:ugh::ugh:

Last but not least, I leave that arrogans and monetary BS of yours to battle out with yourself. It was such a stupid comment of bring up capitalism on this thread- where did that come from? :ugh::ugh::ugh: