Aerobatics???

[TRIMTRABB]

I'm a PPl/IMC/Night with TT 160 hours. Whilst ever patiently waiting for my ATPL funding to materialise and studying towards the writtens
I feel I would benefit from achieving the AOPA Aerobatics certificate. Nothing flash, I've just got this thing that it would improve my overall awareness of handling. I've dragged some information together but am still left with some questions?

1. Is it worth it? (I'm told a lot of airlines pilots participate)

2. What's the best aircraft type to do it in? Cessna Aerobat seems the cheapest but what about the yoke as opposed to sick?

3. This 8-10 hours to complete. Is this the average or is the reality a little less optimistic?

4. Is the AOPA certificate for life (it's not a rating is it?)

5. So far I've been told no parachute required as the aircraft is never pushed anywhere it's limits. Is this the general consensus?

6. Any school recommendations in the Midlands?

7. Book and video recommendations (anyone read the Neil Williams book?)

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Whoaaaa!!! It's dark and we've only got one engine!

[chicken6]

Thoroughly recommend aeros, not from an airlines point of view because I'v never been there, but from an instructor's POV aerobatic pilots <b>in general</b> seem to be able to fly in more demanding conditions than non-aero pilots with the same number of hours.

It's really about pushing yourself, do you want to do it gradually on your own, making your own mistakes, or do you want to do it in a controlled, supervised environment?

Neil Williams "Aerobatics" is one of those books that if you are really into it, you can learn something new each time you read it. I've read it three times, and proven this rule to myself.

As to the aeroplanes, I haven't flown enough types aerobatically to say if the C152 is the ideal trainer, but it does most things reasonably well and some things (stall turns, barrel rolls, aileron rolls) very well. If you really crank it up you can also get a four point roll out of it, although you end up pointing down a loooooooong way!

In general the more types of flying you do, the better pilot you will be. THink about how much better you felt after your night and IMC ratings. Same thing, but it always applies.

Safe flying

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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

[inverted flatspin]

I am in a similar situation here in the US (private ticket,130TT) and I am doing aeros in a Decathalon, I am combining Basic aerobatics and a tailwheel signoff into one and should complete it all in about 12 hours. I have 6 hours aero/tailwheel at the moment and the improvement in my handling ability is very noticeable. Can't wait to get my hands on a the Pitts special or the Extra 300 that the flight school I'm doing it at has.

[A and C]

Fly the chipmunk if you can ,its quite hard to fly well and you will learn a lot

Its harder to fly good aerobatics in the chipmunk than the extra 300.

[TRIMTRABB]

Thanks for the replys. The Chipmunk, now that takes me back to my ATC days!

[LowNSlow]

I used to love my Aerobat until some numpty (not me) forgot to tie it down and a gale blew it over and over and over.

As cheap to operate as a 150 and loads of fun. There are quite a few out there for hire / sale. Get a 130hp one if you can, it's climb performance is a lot better and you'll need it!

[This message has been edited by LowNSlow (edited 22 November 2000).]

[FNG]

I'm learning aeros at the moment on a Bulldog. Not the cheapest, but nice and punchy. Being able to park the prop and throttle and then heave about on the stick is a help. I'm using this as a staging post to a more capable machine. My feeling as a low time PPL is that aeros are definitely good for one's flying in general.

I'd be interested to hear the views of aerobatic pilos on parachutes. I think that I would prefer to have one, not so much because of the risk of airframe failure (unlikely if you are not being really daft) but because of the risk of an irrecoverable spin. John Farley has posted interestingly on this topic in the instructor's forum (his point being that each individual airframe may spin differently and display odd features in recovery). Having said this, by the time that you had wrestled unsuccessfully to recover a spin, then, even assuming a safe starting height, you might be too late to jump out.

[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 22 November 2000).]

[pesket]

Always wear a parachute when flying aerobatics, or aeroflot, you never know if the previous pilot went over the limits.
DO NOT tailslide a 150 and make sure to check the elevator attach-bolts.
happy flying, being upside down is great, you should try a mudry cap 10 or similar, having the instructor next to you instead of behind you makes it easier at first for him/her to explain and you to understand.

[A and C]

All my PPL students get to go spinning but befor we do i show them a an RAF training film called "spinning modern aircraft" ,i think the most modern aircraft in the film is the hunter but this detracts not from the content.

The main point i hammer home with able help from the film is that when the correct recovery action is taken the roll rate INCREASES just befor the spin stops , this is particualy evident in the PA-38 and DHC-1 i dont think that the C152 and grob 115 exibit good spins as they fall out into a spiral dive if you let go of the controls.

The extra 300 is altogether different as after opposite rudder application it only takes about an inch of forward stick to stop the spin instantly.

AS for parachutes i only have one when flying the Extra and when doing air tests after major work has been done.

[inverted flatspin]

Parachutes, You probably will never need one but you are a lot better having one and not needing it than needing one and not having it. I personally know one person who bailed out from an unrecoverable spin. You won't find me doing aerobatics without one.

[DB6]

Aerobatics - brilliant ! Midlands; try Tatenhill (Decathlon but not sure if they do the AOPA course) www.tatenhill-aviation.co.uk (http://www.tatenhill-aviation.co.uk) or Northampton (Pitts S-2A) www.nsfly.flyer.co.uk. (http://www.nsfly.flyer.co.uk.) Yeehaw!
Cheers DB6

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 23 November 2000).]

[TRIMTRABB]

Can you get in a Aerobat with a parachute on?
Now I bet you can in a YAK52! It's starts get a tad expensive though?

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Whoaaaa!!! It's dark and we've only got one engine!

[jotpilot]

Anyone know a flying club that has extra 300's around the south london area? What sort of wedge will you pay per hour for the privilege?

[PaulDeGearup]

FNG,
If you are doing aeros in a Dog you really should have a parachute. The spin characteristics of the Dog vary according to which way it is spinning, L or R, and if you have any aileron applied it is likely to go high rotational. Equally, the RAf had incidences of the Dog not coming out soon enough and the crew jumping out; if you are doing your aeros at a lowish level you may find that you are a tad short of height to recover if you do spin accidentally. I recall Scroggs had a student who took stall recovery action instead of spin recovery, mail him and ask how that went !

[FNG]

Thanks for that. I had read a number of postings about Bulldog spins on the recent spinning thread in the Instructor's forum and have heard various stories about Dogspins from other sources. As it happens I hope to be forming a group around another aerobatic aircraft soon and am trying to presuade the other group members that we should add parachutes to our desired kit list. If they don't agree, I'll buy two myself. Does anyone have a recommendation of a good source for modern chutes and how much one should expect to pay for something with a reliable reputation?

[TRIMTRABB]

Do you know FNG I have the same question about parachutes! There seems to be no mention of them in the classifieds, why is this? The more I have gone into this the more I want one on.
I have found T67 at a sensible price and this is an aircraft that I have always had an interest in and am really keen to have a crack at. My dad looked at me with a concerned face and says " Hm, they're the ones the USAF HAD aren't they?" Now what was that all about? Other than this I've only ever heard good things about them?



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Whoaaaa!!! It's dark and we've only got one engine!

[Ivchenko]

TT - your T67 question

With apologies as this won't be totally acurate, but it's about right:

The USAF bought a load (more than 50, I think) of T67s for use as basic trainers / ability assessment a/c (they had some fancy phrase for the latter which I forget), about five or so years ago.

However they had problems with engine reliability, and alhough instructors could not identify specific faults (e.g. they tested them by doing power off descents to land from 10k, and then immediately going to full power on the ground, and they behaved flawlessly), they eventually got fed up with them and grounded the lot.

An acquaintance of mine, aero display pilot, flew one and had nothing but praise for it BTW. Don't know about roll rate with that wingspan though.

Best of luck with it.

[A and C]

The only problem for the USAF with the T67 was political .....it was not made in the USA.

[FNG]

I contacted the USAF last year to see if they wanted to sell me one of their nice, low time T-67s but they said that they hadn't yet made up their minds on what to do with them (useful for bombing Florida perhaps?)

An army pilot (Brit) of my acquaintance told me that the buzz on the bases when he was last out there playing zap games on the Apache was that half of the T67 instructors were from multi-engine multi-crew backgounds and kept having engine faffs, whilst the single engine guys had no probs (or was it the other way round?), but I have no idea if there is any truth in this, and my army mate is an Olympic-standard line shooter anyway.



[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 30 November 2000).]

[TRIMTRABB]

OK,

Looks like the T67 is the one I'll try first.Already got the formalities out of the way by stroking one at Aerofair. I'm on page 60 of The Neil Williams book and can't wait. Just hope I don't whimp out by hurling!
Now about that parachute......

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Whoaaaa!!! It's dark and we've only got one engine!
Shutup! You're making me paranoid!