Air Australia!

[Ejector]

EWL, What was the 5.5mill bill for ?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

ABC in Perth reporting approx 4,000 pax either left 'high & dry' at various places around, & have been advised to make altn arrangements with another carrier, or,
those who were about to board (may) have 'done their $$'s.

Unable to afford the fuel so its reported......

FIFO ops in Perth also affected.

:{

[Eastwest Loco]

Psgr reaccom and associated costs Ejector.

Sounds like there wasn't a FIM reaccom arrangement in place and they copped full tote odds rather than uplift at face value.

Regards

EWL

[Teal]

EWL, come on, blind freddie could see this coming.

To (re)launch in November, and go bust only three months later, I just wonder how solvent they were all along. Were they trading whilst insolvent? If so, it would be a serious breach of the Corporations Act and the Directors would be in the firing line. Not much comfort though for their employees and customers.

[down3gr33ns]

how is it that the Government gives a contract to transport Australian Defence Force personnel to a foreign AOC holder?

This'd be the same government that is subsidising another foreign carrier to soon commence mainland - NLK ops. That, too, should have gone to an Aussie AOC holder.

Now, back to the thread ................

[Worrals in the wilds]

refueller in phuket last night wanted the bill paid up front. company couldn't pay.Surely the company must have seen this coming, if only a week or so ago. Don't they check their bank accounts occasionally? :confused:

Another action repeat with a whole bunch of people left unemployed and a whole bunch of people owed money. :ugh:It's like that Irish song with the chorus 'Again and again and again and again.':mad:

Speaking of Irish, decent move by Joyce/Qantas, IMO.

The next time some big shot entrepeneurial type blasts onto the scene in a blaze of media hype telling us all how he's going to run a passenger airline to the islands and pull on the big boys, can they get laughed out of town? Please? Do we have to keep seeing this endless cycle where people end up out of work and owed money, not to mention stranded in foreign ports? It's not just the big airports, fuel companies and ASA who lose out when this happens, but all the little guys who supply catering, ground handling, seat mending and the like. :sad:

All the best to yet another poor swag of ex employees, I hope you can all find work soon.

[Icarus2001]

Yes, when these people set up their next venture the question to ask will be..."Hey were you the guys who ran Ozjet, Strategic, Air Australia or was it Sky Air World?"

Used car salesmen with jets.

[1a sound asleep]

Used car salesmen with jets.

You hit the nail right on the head. I cant mention names but its been a shady operation. They were in a desperate situation months ago and simply ran out of money and then lied through their teeth all the way. I am sorry for the great employees but when will people realise that these sort of pipe dream airline operations never work

[Worrals in the wilds]

And Heavylift, too. Their 737F must be practically rusted to the pavement by now.
Used car salesmen with jets. Gold! :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

I was of the opinion that CASA would not let an AOC holder keep same (& certainly not issue one) if they where not financially able to do so.....thoughts anyone?
It's becoming more obvious that Australia can't support too many Airlines. Sure we have the land mass (Sim to mainland States) but we don't have the population & therefore the jobs with dues taxes & therefore the infrastructure etc & our economy isn't as good as 'Juliar' has us led to believe ! There's always a multitude of reasons why a Co goes bust some directly attributable directly due poor management (see QF for Eg.) & some not.

Jobs are sliding all over this country, batten down the hatches I say as our current Govt are killing their golden goose.........you & I!

Hoping our aviation colleges can find employment elsewhere & soon:ok:


Wmk2

[prospector]

I heard a rumor today from a reliable source who is a gentleman and non vindictive individual that the airline in question has enough jam in the jam jar to feed them until the end of February.

The jam jar not quite as full as the reliable source had heard rumored??

[tu144]

Quote:
I heard a rumor today from a reliable source who is a gentleman and non vindictive individual that the airline in question has enough jam in the jam jar to feed them until the end of February.
The jam jar not quite as full as the reliable source had heard rumored?? The rumor is correct. They are bust!

http://www.airaustralia.com/~/media/Files/Air%20Australia%20FAQs.ashx

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/budget-airline-air-australia-placed-in-administration/story-fn32891l-1226273367460 (http://www.airaustralia.com/%7E/media/Files/Air%20Australia%20FAQs.ashx)

[ALK A343]

Very sad news indeed. If any of you are interested in coming over to Sri Lanka in order to keep flying PM me. I know the terms and conditions at SriLankan are not the best but it might be a good option until you find something else. We are hiring on the A320 / A330 and I can set you guys up with the recruitment people. I will not engage in the usual debate about SriLankan and not reply to any threads on that subject, this an offer from a pilot to his fellow aviators who are unemployed.
Good luck to you all.

[tu144]

Curious to hear from the crews on how it all went down...

[baylover]

Unfortunately this is for pilots only.
Try Hong Kong Airlines.
There will be 200 positions available this year, and approx 300 in 2013.
There are no projections beyond that, but there are 10 A380's coming, then A350's and B787's down the track.
I suspect the boeings will go to mainland as it is primarily an Airbus fleet, or is planned to be.
It is the companies policy to promote within, but there are not enough qualified F/O's to fill all the spaces, so in the short term there must be some DEC's.
That is my opinion, but the numbers are real.
There are plenty who bag this company, but they have been proved to be way off the mark.
Sorry about what happened, but perhaps there might be an opportunity for you there.
It is a website application, anyone wishes more information please feel free to pm me.

[gobbledock]

I heard a rumor today from a reliable source who is a gentleman and non vindictive individual that the airline in question has enough jam in the jam jar to feed them until the end of February. I hate to say I told you so......
Regardless, a sad day indeed, some good aviators now unemployed. The only person in Australian aviation who curently deserves to be unemployed is Joyce.
Good luck to all, keep your chins up.

[Buster Hyman]

And KordaMentha are doing the Administration! :mad::mad::mad:

Good luck to the Air Australia staff...you're gonna need it! :suspect:

[Rudder]

When this all washes out it will make SkyAirWorld look like the local milk bar.

100,000 prepaid tickets useless. And not a cent in the bank.

Sad news for all the staff, suppliers and customers. Good luck to everyone.

[adsyj]

I really feel for the staff who have lost their jobs.

But what ****s me in situations like this are Administrators and Banks. We all know these blokes will not miss out on a feed,

In cases where the Company Assets are stuck overseas (people and aircraft) plus innocent passengers the companies bankers should just pay the ******* fuel bill get everybody and everything onshore and then let the administrators bleed the company dry.

[MASTEMA]

THRidle, Jackthelad and all of you other intellects who kept telling us that we were ‘full of BS’ well, no hard feelings.

This is a very small industry though and your appalling, mindless, vindictive, self serving Flt Ops management (we know who you are) track record while at AA will be your calling card.

Learn to live with being outside the Fourth Reich and your crimes.

All of the other great crew will have no problem getting a new gig very quickly. Welcome :ok:

[Toruk Macto]

Losing a job absolutely sucks , reading today's news of Air Australia and Qantas is bringing back bad memories. It means change but it can sometimes work out ok. It turned out in my case to be the best thing that happened and I wish it happened 10 years earlier.

Good luck

[AucT]

Air Australia collapse leaves 4,000 stranded and scrambling for refunds Budget airline serving Asia-Pacific destinations including Hawaii and Thailand in voluntary administration and unable to pay for fuel ...


Air Australia collapse leaves 4,000 stranded and scrambling for refunds | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/feb/17/air-australia-collapse-stranded-refunds?newsfeed=true)

[Skystar320]

What happened to the other thread?

[Mr A Tis]

Does anyone know how / if this will impact Strategic Airlines operating in Europe?

[1a sound asleep]

Strategic Europe is all part of the same (dodgy) operation

have a read of this
France Today: France's embarrassment and anger over Strategic Airlines (http://www.france-today.com/2011/02/frances-embarrassment-and-anger-over.html)

Strategic Airlines - a charter company banned by France - makes a mockery of the country's civil aviation authority and takes advantage of a lack of European Union-wide regulations.

(screenshot from TF1 news)

In a special report during its prime time news on Monday, French television channel TF1 looked at how a European subsidiary of the Australian-based company Strategic Airlines had managed to flout a ban placed on it by the French civil aviation authority last September.

The charter airline simply moved its headquarters to neighbouring Luxembourg, as a "completely separate subsidiary" gained a licence from that country's aviation authority, and continued its flights from French airports to destinations in Greece and Portugal.

Strategic Airlines first gained a licence to fly in Europe in 2009 but its name soon became synonymous, as far as passengers and authorities in France were concerned, with technical problems and delays.

Complaints about waits of up to 30 hours because of technical problems and 'planes described by passengers as "flying coffins" as well as spot-checks carried out French civil aviation authority officials led to its licence being revoked in September 2010.

But just a few weeks later the company was back in business.

It had found a loophole in European Union regulations: there is no single agency within the 27-member state bloc responsible for overseeing airlines.

Perhaps the European Aviation Safety Agency would be the body most able to fulfil that function, but its role is limited as it makes clear on its website.

"The Agency works hand in hand with the national authorities which continue to carry out many operational tasks, such as certification of individual aircraft or licencing of pilots."

In other words each member state is responsible for deciding whether a licence will be issued to an airline and although a blacklist of airlines exists, it only applies to non-European companies.

And, according to Gilles Gompertz the general manager of the airline consulting business Avico, Strategic took full advantage of the inadequacy of EU-wide regulations.

"We closed the the door (to the airline) in September 2010 and one month later we opened the window," he said.

"What cannot be explained is the refusal by the company to correct faults and to return to the market after it has effectively been banned. That's shocking."

While Luxembourg's civil aviation authority is apparently "keeping a close eye" on Strategic's operations, it did little to prevent the airline once again upsetting passengers in December, this time those bound for the island of Madeira.

After a 10-hour wait, they were informed that their 'plane had been cancelled - an incident the airline put down to having been the fault of the tour operator.

[gflynorw]

No. Completely separate companies.

[Worrals in the wilds]

...but how is it that the Government gives a contract to transport Australian Defence Force personnel to a foreign AOC holder? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Possibly it helps when someone involved with the company is ex ADF. :ooh:
Airline's wobbly route meant end of the line was a matter of time (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/airlines-wobbly-route-meant-end-of-the-line-was-a-matter-of-time-20120217-1tei5.html)
Thanks to Captain Johns for the later link (and yes, the irony is obvious :E)

[Eastwest Loco]

With regard to refunds on cash fares, the funds sit for a minimum of 2 weeks in IATA (BSP) coffers before being distributed to Airlines.

We had 4 passengers on cash bookings. Yep - cash still works on the rock in the Southern Ocean.

I duly refunded them through the Sabre system.

Don't know if it will work but it did with Ansett on a few and the revenues held by IATA were returned to us. Despite numerous threats 95% of Travel Agents told the admin to go pound wet sand up their butts as we were out 3+ months of flown revenue overides. That equated to 5+ times what was sent back.

Hopefully these refunds work and we can reconnect the clients with their dollars.

Failing that, there is the Travel Compensation Fund who have been scarily silent. Unless they changed the rules after Ansett fell, they should pick up the losses. They did then but have been strangely silent.

If they dont then they are simply another Quango making money from us (we get bitten every year) to employ people for no return.

This particular event is starting to show up a lot of holes in alleged cover and procedure and even for us that have to deal with it on behalf of others, it is a minefield. The smoke, the mirrors - it is taking hours to navigate it on behalf of clients.

Travel Insurance is another thing - they are not commenting (we carry 2 seperate companies to cover the failings of each) and nothing is being stated as Gospel until a claim comes in.

Woe betide those who booked on the web. What was the phone number for the internet???? At least they can can the bookings cost via the card issuer but there are more road blocks there.

Four clients with Island State Credit Union with Mastercards phoned on my instruction, immediately had the charge reversed to be back on the card within 24 hours.

Another client who is overseas at the moment and who is with CBA for his Platinum card rang and was told he had to go into a branch.

CBA in defensive mode perchance? Make it too hard for older folk to bother?

They were stuck with rules and regs when AN went - what have they learned and closed off?

We are not 24 hours in and it is getting scary.

Thank God it's Saturday and if I get one more call from some nuff nuff who can't tell the difference between Jetset and Jetstar I am goiung to reverse check their number, find them and insert garden furniture in them. Slowly - 45 degree angle.

Don't we live in an interesting world?:ugh:

Gloomy at the moment VC people - hjowever the good stuff floats and is picked up easily and quickly. There is a light at the end of the tunnel and it is NOT the3:17 from Bankstown.

Best all

Ewl

[captjns]

Unfortunately another one bites the dust.

Airline's wobbly route meant end of the line was a matter of time (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/airlines-wobbly-route-meant-end-of-the-line-was-a-matter-of-time-20120217-1tei5.html)

[ampan]

Sky News interviewed a chap at Sydney airport who tried to make a claim on his travel insurance. He was told that the insurance company would not cover tickets purchased after a specified date in mid-December, because the insolvency of the airline was known to be likely at that point in time.

I'd be curious to know who the insurance company was. "Strategic Travel Insurance Pty Ltd" perhaps.

[Wellwellwell]

The travel insurance discussion regarding insolvency cover withdrawal was covered on threads 48 to 56.....

[MASTEMA]

AA was still employing pilots this past week while the four core Flt Ops managers were fully aware that it was going under, utterly disgraceful and very sad indeed.

For THRidle, Jackthelad and the other sycophants, read on.

High flyers come crashing down with fall of Air Australia | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/egos-come-crashing-down-after-high-life/story-e6frfq7r-1226274402506)

[Samba Anaconda]

How can this thing happen? Are heads going to roll or the con men up front are going to go scot free laughing all their way to some off shore banks?

I heard something unrelated sometime ago but I thought it was nonsense and forgot about it. Now I wonder if there is anything to it. A relative with SAC ( Strategic Air Command ) told me sometime back that with the stationing of US troops in Darwin, a lot of troop movements wrt to the Far East Allies will basically done by SAC, so those charters to Kabul, kandahar, Diego Garcia, X'mas Isle, Dahran, etc currently done by others are all going to be changed. Looks like there are a lot of hidden stuff we don't, are not likely to know and probably will never know. Those currently running the charters ferrying troops will be setting up outfits to compete with LCCs when all those charters dry up.

[patagonianworelaud]

the insurance company would not cover tickets purchased after a specified date in mid-December

Is it not the case that anyone buying travel insurance would have to be told of an exception re insolvency cover? I recall being advised of a similar thing by the travel agent elsewhere a long time ago and had to even sign an acknowledgement of such. If the vendor hadn't told the customer in this case, wouldn't the customer have some of redress?

[Samba Anaconda]

AA was still employing pilots this past week while the four core Flt Ops managers were fully aware that it was going under, utterly disgraceful and very sad indeed.



So, it is not only the Chinese recruiting agents who lead applicants up the rose garden path! Now do people realize that all recruiting agents only care for themselves; any talk about western recruiters having " superior " ethics is utter hogwash. They only have better propaganda, spin their stories better and cover their arses better whereas the Asians and non caucasian recruiters are generally clumsy, amateurish lacking finesse in spinning their cause or covering up thei underhand tactics.

[Capt_SNAFU]

SAC doing airlift, I think not. Not only was it not their area of operation (apart from some troop transport in tankers) they don't exist anymore (along with TAC and MAC) and have been inactive for 20 years.

Air Mobility Command is the airlift section of USAF.

[splat72]

Amazing .....An airline has been born and then died all within the time line of one pprune thread, gotta be a record.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

So, is 'this' a case for the Fed Guvmint to run a 'Training Navex' for the big transports - C-17 - of the RAAF to assist 'The Hard Working Families of Australia' to at least return home??

Financial assistance...with OUR $$$'s ... as in ANY OTHER 'disaster'...
Aussies supporting Aussies...

That need not be seen as 'propping up' the now defunct airline, nor the crooks that run such schemes.

Rather, it would be seen as being 'supportive' to those stranded Aussie taxpayers....might have to 'divert' a few $$'s from the 'Illegals' to assist.....
Might even win a few badly needed votes..???

Perhapssss the funds so spent could be 'recovered' from the subsequent 'firesale' if there be anything left to sell....

Oh dear ...I'm dreamin' again......

Cheers:yuk::yuk::mad::mad:

[Icarus2001]

So who will cover the Derby/Curtin flights next week? Were they doing one a day M-F?

[ozangel]

Some dodgy stuff going on here...

A work colleague is booked to fly with them in 2 weeks. (Despite me strongly discouraging him, and warning him that he should have full travel insurance if he does - explaining the poor service reviews and high likelihood of failure).

He booked in November through flight centre, and took out the full insurance, which at the time covered airlines (including Air Australia/Strategic - as it was prior to the exclusion) for insolvency (as stated on the policy docs given to him).

Now here's the really dodgy bit:

1) The flight centre agent (also the principal agent) strongly encouraged him to pay cash, suggesting the deal was only available to 'cash buyers'.

2) Despite purchasing and signing in November, the agent failed to lodge the insurance policy until the first week of January - and failed to tell my work colleague that the policy had changed since his purchase.

3) The agent said nothing can be done and no refund is possible, and that the only thing he can do is organise a formal meeting with the principal agent (the one and the same agent that sold the tickets for cash and is telling him no refund over the phone).

I've advised him to contact fair trading for advice, and told him to know his rights prior to going in for the meeting. His holiday, like many other AA pax, is down the drain, and he's left in a 'black hole'. At least he's not stuck overseas.

[TBM-Legend]

So, is 'this' a case for the Fed Guvmint to run a 'Training Navex' for the big transports - C-17 - of the RAAF to assist 'The Hard Working Families of Australia' to at least return home??

Financial assistance...with OUR $$$'s ... as in ANY OTHER 'disaster'...
Aussies supporting Aussies...


People get into trouble overseas, why do they think the taxpayer should pay to "rescue" them???

[Wally Mk2]

Have to agree there 'Griffo' I'd rather see my tax bucks go to bringing these poor buggers home than see the bucks go to some obscure tree frog in danger or some 'Blue Poles' crap art work that!!!:ugh:

Perhaps some of the stranded pax could slip on down to the nearest wharf & jump an asylum seeker boat to get back here 'cause at the rate they are pouring into this sucker country this method will be the only way to travel!

Some heard should roll here with this shut down as there must have quite a few execs in the Co who knew that the closure was imminent yet they still let the A/C get airborne!!!!


Wmk2

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hiya TB...

Re "why do they think the taxpayer should pay to "rescue" them??? "

Because they pay their taxes, and they VOTE!!

And, if its a 'Training Exercise' - NAVEX - the services spend the money anyway, so...do some 'good' on the way...and simply 'vary' the NAVEX route...

Unlike some 'others' who claim assistance and absorb SO MUCH of our 'hard earned'$$'s .....for, in some cases, very little or NIL return!!!

Cheers:yuk::yuk:

[Arnold E]

People get into trouble overseas, why do they think the taxpayer should pay to "rescue" them??? I would really like to think that you are not fair dinkum ( in this case ), But are you?:eek: These people bought tickets in good faith, they are not insiders like you and me, I hope nothing ever happens to you that would require "outside" help from any direction coz I would be on the band wagon saying, "no way" to you.:ugh:

[amos2]

Get a life Arnold!
You reckon you're an Insider?
No your not!

Anyone who buys a ticket on a cheap, crap airline, because they want a cheap, crap fare, knowing that the airline in question is a cheap, crap airline, deserves to lose their money if the cheap, crap airline goes belly up!

You want value for money.
Stick with the airlines with runs on the board.

And stick with travel agents who have runs on the board too!

Book with East West Loco, take his advice, and you'll do fine.

[angelorange]

Can't afford fuel:

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/bid-to-sell-off-grounded-airline/story-e6frg95x-1226274218539)

Wet lease also linked to Atlas Jet (Turkey) who provided crews etc.

[Anthill]

Ozangel,

Despite purchasing and signing in November, the agent failed to lodge the insurance policy until the first week of January - and failed to tell my work colleague that the policy had changed since his purchase.

I hope your mate has a copy of the insurance contract that he was sold- the one with insolvency insurance cover as an inclusion :ooh:. If he has this then he should be fine. If Flight Center is acting as a broker for travel insurance then a policy contract must still be honoured regardless that they failed to submit documentation*.

In the event that there are further problems, get him in contact with the Insurance Industry Ombudsman. Best of luck to your mate, I hate to hear of unethical practices like this :cool:

*( I faced a very similar situation some years ago when NRMA tried to worm their way out of paying for hail damage to my Merc 230TE- The insurer came out with every trick in the book to sleaze out of their contractual obligation. I was doubtful regarding the ombudsman, but they actually have teeth and can get things sorted pretty quickly).

[Arnold E]

Anyone who buys a ticket on a cheap, crap airline, because they want a cheap, crap fare, knowing that the airline in question is a cheap, crap airline, deserves to lose their money if the cheap, crap airline goes belly up!And pray tell genius, how does the lady that lives down the road from me know that this or that particular airline is headed for the rocks, and pleeeease dont tell me its because you paid a cheap fare, I recently booked to fly to Brizzvagas on the cheapest fare and guess who that was, yes genius, it was Q, cheaper than Tiger, Virgin or even my own aircraft.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Yes and ok insider was perhaps a poor choice of phrase if you want to be pedantic, which clearly you do, I will retract and say" some knowledge of the industry and its workings, somewhat more than the lady down the road".

[Cost Index]

Don't worry Arnold, some of us knew where you were coming from :ok: Very few lay people have any idea how the industry works, they assume it's just like any other. A bit of empathy for others seems to lack from a lot of pilots round these parts.

[ozangel]

Anthill, thanks!

He sent me a picture of the document he has, stating it will cover you 'if your airline/tour operator goes broke', and he has the purchase receipt etc.

I'll tell him to get onto Insurance Industry Ombudsman if the meeting doesn't go well.

Cheers.

[Anthill]

Excellent..excellent!:ok:

[zanzibar]

So who will cover the Derby/Curtin flights next week?

Indeed!

My company doesn't pay me as a FIFO if I'm not there to do the work.

Due there on Tuesday.

[ACT Crusader]

zanzibar and Icarus2001 - you'd hope Skywest or Altitude might be able to pick up some of the affected routes for FIFO arrangements in the regions.

[nomorecatering]

So what was the problem with AA, did they expend all the money from forward bookings. The news said they had 100,000 tickets booked for the next few months. Seems like pretty healthy loads.

We all know a new entrant has to have substantial funds to cover the first few years losses, till they get established and part of the fabric of the travelling public.

What I'm really asking is, is the business viable for someone to get their hands on it at a firesale price, then build it up again over a few years and cop the losses in that time. Would 100 million in the kitty be enough.

I believe Optus budgeted for 10 years of losses in their start up business plan.

[Eastwest Loco]

Oh my Ozangel.

Now you raise the ugly truths regarding Blight Centre.

Not issuing the insurance there and then is actionable in itself. As all of the evil empire is company owned I cannot for a second understand why cash was insisted on. Therefore I would demand to see what date the E tickets were issued on and a correct and verified copy of said E tickets. VC did not charge a credit card surcharge as far as I can tell. Have tried to get back into VC E tickets. Their "plate" has been deleted from BSP so the info is no longer available. Thank God I processed refunds on cash tickets before the thing was pulled, but it remains to be seen if they will be honoured.

The alleged E tickets provided by these alleged travel agents is merely an itinerary with ticket numbers and no genuine fare construction. This masks them applying whatever service fee they think they can get away with as there is no crosscheck. That is what happens when a large chunk of your salary comes from what you can gouge out of clients.

Insisting on cash smells very bad and would make one check what was actually receipted into the Blight Centre system. I do hope an official receipt was issued, not one out of a book buyable at Chickenfeed or the Reject Shop.

Bottom line is that if the insurance was signed and paid for on a given date and not issued until a month or so later, the seller of the insurance is in the crosshairs for a world of hurt. Contact the insurer initially as the representative of Captain Plastic is going to do every dodge in the world is the 1st move and if no good there straight to the insurance ombudsman.

Bore it up them. These bastards have been poluting the industry for far too long now with their dodgy practices and secret deals and have been caught out here. In a way I love it, but certainly not for the poor passengers affected.

If it were to come to light that more and more passengers were being pushed by this mob to cash transactions that indicate a major company wide cash flow problem. :suspect::suspect:

We sell 2 seperate insurance companies that are SureSave and a Jetset branded QBE product and have received no notification from either that Strategic/Air Australia is precluded in carrier collapse terms. In fact I can not recall a single carrier exclusion being put in place ever over the 10 or so companies I have sold over far too many years.

There is something basically dodgy going on here and it deserves hard investigation.

Confronting the Blight Centre local manager with the fact that the payment and policy issue is about to go very public if not explained and covered and watch the sparks fly, and do not be bluffed out of action is my call.

I would also suggest that the passenger contacts the Travel Compensation fund who should cover any initial loss and start a formal proceeding against the agency group involved. There are some decidedly dodgy practices here.

Best

EWL

[Worrals in the wilds]

So what was the problem with AA, did they expend all the money from forward bookings. The news said they had 100,000 tickets booked for the next few months. Seems like pretty healthy loads.Dunno about airlines, but this is becoming a problem for smaller players in the entertainment industry. Online sales mean you get the money at the time of sale, not at the actual event. This means that you can't count on a big wad of cash when your performance is on, because it actually came in (and often got spent) in dribs and drabs leading up to it. Some entertainment types are having a hard time getting used to this, and not relying on a big wad of cash come show night to cover the show costs; particularly the unexpected ones like when someone drops a road case on something expensive, falls out of the lighting grid or gets sued for breach of copyright / decency laws. :ouch::}

Of course budgeting and basic common sense would dictate that you put that money aside for the costs you'll incur while running the event or operating the flight, but there have been enough showbiz and airline train wrecks recently to show that this doesn't always happen.

These guys were spending money like drunken sailors (Indy sponsorships FFS? Lavish parties to Bali? Even Virgin have trimmed the Drunken Hangar Orgy budget in recent times, and they were the queens of the massive party :\). After that big display of apparent opulence, they were brought down by fuel bills.

They follow a number of 'airline gone broke, everyone out of pocket' incidents and I don't blame the fuel companies for operating on a strictly cash basis. Along with a number of other service providers, they have been burned several times before. :ouch:

Both industries attract manic attention seekers who want to see their name in lights. Both industries are also basically unprofitable because their operating costs are very close to their possible profit. Both industries are highly competitive and contain a number of companies who are either government sponsored or savvy old players who have been around a loong, loong time. They don't waste money whooping it up in Bali or swanking around at Indy. They spend it on the vital stuff like fuel and landing fees.

I believe Optus budgeted for 10 years of losses in their start up business plan. Maybe that's why Optus are still trading.

Best of luck EWL. You must be having a pretty rough time at the moment! :)

[Eastwest Loco]

Thanks Worrals, but the main worry was my clients.

They are all happily accommodated and with minimal damage.

Compared to the Ansett fold this is a mere fart in the bath but extremely distressing to the guys and girls at VC and the industry as a whole.

Quel domage:(

Best

EWL

[Hoofharted]

This venture should have worked. Forward sales were great and a product that was initially quite good appealed to the public prior to going down the low cost route.
Absolutely millions where spent on setting up an engineering business that was a huge drain on cash and resources, profligate spending on parties and sponsorship and a staff level of 300 for 4 aircraft.
Regardless of what might be fair or right, the administrator will walk with his fee, those of us due entitlements guaranteed by the government will get them in time and that's the end of it.

[jarden]

Regarding the Perth-Derby route it was operating 4 per week.
Thats all the 320 did in since they canned the Bali run from Perth.
Not good aircraft utilisation if you ask me.
Alliance or Skywest could step in and run a few F100s in their downtime between existing flights.

[ampan]

ozangel: Flight Centre were acting as the insurance company's agent, not your agent - so their failure to "lodge" the policy with the insurance company make no difference (and even if did, then Flight Centre were negligent and are liable for the loss).

[SpannerTwister]

And pray tell genius, how does the lady that lives down the road from me know that this or that particular airline is headed for the rocks, and pleeeease dont tell me its because you paid a cheap fare.........


I think one give-away might of been the fact that for the last four months you haven't been able to buy travel insurance covering the event that they go insolvent, in fact, specifically, most of the major travel retailers have SPECIFICALLY been making people SIGN DISCLAIMERS that travel insurance was not available for this event.

However, Those who planned and booked wayyy back and DID buy travel insurance have my sympathies, those who planned and booked back then and did not purchase travel insurance, well, they're just not smart enough to travel !

ST

[denabol]

Is someone, like the administrators, trying to make some of this up.

Sandilands doesn't believe the official version of events.

He might be onto something about this.

AirAustralia and its administrator met before 1.30 am today | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/02/17/air-australia-and-its-administrator-were-in-discussions-well-before-the-airline-ran-out-of-money/)

[XRlent320]

Jarden,
Air Australia were doing 5 Derby/Curtin runs per week. A daily weekday flight ex Perth at 0630.

[PA39]

Quote:
I believe Optus budgeted for 10 years of losses in their start up business plan.

I'd bet my cods their financiers didn't !! :(

[Skystar320]

Skywest now do the RPT to Derby / Curtin announced on their website. Could not think of a better operator!

[airdualbleedfault]

Nomorecateing, I'm sure you'd pick up AA at a bargan price as they have virtually nothing to sell.
Hoof, I disagree, when they were full service they were competing with dozens of cashed up airlines and then they went low cost and were competing with dozens of cashed up LCCs.
Can anybody name a small incumbent airline (not FIFO) that has survived in Oz ? VB ? Weeks from going broke when AN fell over.Impulse? Bought out by evil empire . The list goes on.
As for utilisation of the PH 320, 10hrs a day is considered reasonable, not 5.

[3 Holer]

I'm sure you'd pick up AA at a bargan price as they have virtually nothing to sell.
.................except $30 million worth of debt.That would attract a huge number of buyers at a "bargain price" !:ugh:

[topend3]

I thought Alliance had a problem uplifting the freight on the Derby runs when they were doing the run with an F100 in between Ozjet collapse and Strategic getting the contract.

[nomorecatering]

In there is no assets to sell, and the business is liquidated, the creditors would get nothing. Zilch.

However, if you offered them 30 cents in the dollar, thats better than nothing. It's a common practice in buying insolvent companies in the US.

You get an AOC, staff, the planes, marketing etc. restart the business, ruthlessly trim costs.

[Metro man]

If you can afford to take a chance with a cheap fare on the basis that you might not get to travel or end up making your own way home, then fair enough if the saving is enough to justify the risk.

If you don't have the means to support yourself abroad for a few extra days and pay for a ticket on another airline then stick with the big boys.

[Gravel Kit]

As alluded to earlier, it was known in the industry that they were under financial pressure. What action did the regulator take and their justification for their actions or inaction as the case may be.....

This is not a first to happen in the industry in recent years, SAW and OzJet both went under with advanced purchase revenue spent leaving passengers seriously exposed. Taxpayers picked up the tab to a degree with SAW as the government contract awarded to them to fly to Christmas and Cocos Island stayed at Cobham and those passengers who held a SAW ticket were not charged again according to a couple of mates who had booked on SAW.

It is too easy for people with huge ambition's/ego's (cross out which one doesn't apply) to start in this business without the nessecary financial means, promise the world to the public or FIFO industry, provide competition which the public all want but then go broke. In the mean time existing profitable operators all take a hit as well in the mean time. There is a reason why existing operators charge what they charge..... And the same reason they remain flying year after year.:ugh:

Not wanting to get of the tread to far but if it were Tiger in the same position as AA a month or so back when the regulator meet with them would they have taken a different course of action? The difference is of course that Tiger are well funded and pouring money into the operation to fix it at present.

Good luck to all the AA crew and staff on finding jobs quickly, events such as this are never pleasant.

[Goat Whisperer]

"Skywest now do the RPT to Derby / Curtin announced on their website. Could not think of a better operator!"

Wow, that was quick. And probably the only thing of AA's that's worth anything.

[jarden]

Would Skywest take on the Port Hedland to Brisbane run as well? It could be a stepping stone for them to grow eastwards. QF may grab it as they already do MEL-PHE so the BNE run could compliment it.

Thai could take on the HKT routes as long as it not canabilise the BKK flights too much. With their lower cost base it may be more viable for them.

[Going Nowhere]

QF to run BNE-PHE from mid March.

[BAE146]

What action did the regulator take and their justification for their actions or inaction as the case may be.....

Gravel Kit The regulator has nothing to do with the day to day running of an Airline's business or financial strength/weakness. The regulator is there to ensure the Airline complys with the conditions or their AOC and operate safely.

If I owned an airline the last mob I would turn to for business acumen would be CASA!

[1a sound asleep]

Lock the bastard up. When will people learn? Compass I and II, Ozjet, Strategic, Ansett II etc. When the writing is on the wall it means its only a matter of time. Who's next to go? Tiger????

About 300 staff were left without jobs when the airline went into administration on Friday morning.
One member of a flight crew in Honolulu said the crew was stranded until an operations staff member worked in his own time to secure return flights home.

Read more: Jettisoned staff 'disgusted' (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/jettisoned-staff-disgusted-20120219-1th7r.html#ixzz1mwXctlQi)

And where is Michael James now???

[cuberoute]

If you are at all interested take a look at EKPILOT.COM . Nothing good in an airline failing . Good luck to you all !

[Transition Layer]

Skystar320,

Skywest now do the RPT to Derby / Curtin announced on their website. Could not think of a better operator!

I could think of one...with a large established Perth base and reliable equipment capable of doing the task. (i.e. equal to the size of the A320).

[sierra5913]

If you don't have the means to support yourself abroad for a few extra days and pay for a ticket on another airline then stick with the big boys.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=7036605)
(http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7036605&noquote=1)

They went with AA because they didn't have enough to go with the big boys in the first place.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From this morning's Business News...Tues 21/2/12...

Air Australia executive had no aviation sector experience | Latest Business & Australian Stock market News | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/air-chief-was-winging-it/story-e6frg2qc-1226276600326)

[TBM-Legend]

They left out that he worked for a period in Qld Transport Air Transport group overseeing the regulated Qld routes etc.....:suspect:

[Teal]

From today's Age newspaper:

Message from Michael 'fooled failed airline staff' (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/message-from-michael-fooled-failed-airline-staff-20120220-1tjmv.html)

[doleque]

Message from Michael 'fooled failed airline staff' (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/message-from-michael-fooled-failed-airline-staff-20120220-1tjmv.html)

He got a bit of that practicing fooling staff when he (Strategic) purchased the Ozjet AOC by the Deed of Arrangement. Back then he only fooled the staff out of around $400,000 in entitlements.

As they say, leopards don't change their spots.

All the best to the guys and girls who's jobs are gone. But you will most likely move onto much better things.

[JohnMcGhie]

So... Does anyone know of a travel insurer that DOES provide insolvency cover.

I'm off to the USA/China on Sunday, and checking my Travel Insurance (a big company, one I used to work for...) and whadda ya know, it doesn't cover insolvency.

I rang them and they cheerfully told me "No, we don't sell such cover, the risk is too high." And "no" they couldn't tell me who does offer such cover...

Many thanks for any help

[kiwiandrew]

@ JohnMcGhie

I have heard that there are one or two insurers which still offer this ( which really surprises me) , though off the top of my head I couldn't give you a name.

The reason I am surprised that anyone still offers it is that most travel insurers re-wrote their policies to exclude financial collapse in the wake of the 11 September attacks as a large number of airlines went bung in quick succession, so it is not as if it is a recent development.

The risks were just too great to keep offering that sort of cover and given the current state of the industry I can't see most insurers bringing it back any time soon... unless of course people are prepared to trade the extra cover for significant additional premiums.

Good luck... and if you find a company which offers it please post... I would be very interested to know ( and I am sure that a lot of others would be too) .

[JohnMcGhie]

Thanks Kiwiandrew:

I found these three:
http://www.suresave.net.au/holiday.php (http://www.suresave.net.au/holiday.php)
http://www.aussietravelcover.com.au/ (http://www.aussietravelcover.com.au/)
http://www.covermore.com.au/compare-our-plans (http://www.covermore.com.au/compare-our-plans)

Cost appears "reasonable" (about $300.00).

I can't be sure whether this is effectively the same policy "rebadged" by three providers.

Each of these policies includes an "exclusion list" of airlines they won't cover. Interestingly, there are some very big players on there: and of interest (to me) is that two airlines whose initials are "AA" are not covered.

One is of course the subject of this thread. But the other came as a surprise to me!

Cheers

[Busboy92]

Air Australia continued selling tickets despite desperate effort to raise cash | Latest Business & Australian Stock market News | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/air-australias-desperate-tactics/story-fn7kjcme-1226278833618)

This is interesting. While mates were leaving good jobs to join AA it looks like AA new that they were desperate for money. Should this have been shared with the new troops to help them make a better choice before leaving good jobs?

Also, it looks like they were desperate for cash but still spent a motsa on the well reported party in Honolulu. This all smells very ugly to me.

[1a sound asleep]

This is interesting. While mates were leaving good jobs to join AA it looks like AA new that they were desperate for money. Should this have been shared with the new troops to help them make a better choice before leaving good jobs?

Also, it looks like they were desperate for cash but still spent a motsa on the well reported party in Honolulu. This all smells very ugly to me.


Ugly is just the start of it. I warned people on this very forum that were after A320 jobs to take Jetstar or even Tiger over Strategic. There is one very simple rule - do NOT work for a private company wherever possible. Private operators do NOT have to do the same financial reporting as public companies and as such can hide behind false walls of ego and bravado. If anybody had spent the money and had a full financial credit report done on Strategic they could have seen it was doomed to fail. When you work for a company it is the same as lending them your own money - you should check out their financial status up front.

Anybody can get a full Dun and Bradstreet Report that will give you the full picture Dun and Bradstreet - D&B Report (http://dnb.com.au/Credit_Reporting/Buy_a_company_credit_report/DandB_Report/index.aspx)

[Artificial Horizon]

Some people just don't listen, there were plenty of us on here saying that the move to 'air australia' was a crazy move. You need very, very, very deep pockets to move into such a saturated market and survive. I feel really sorry for the guys and girls who got sucked into this mess and are now out of work.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Some people just don't listen, there were plenty of us on here saying that the move to 'air australia' was a crazy move....and for your efforts you got called mean, nasty and a troublemaker by quite a few posters. :sad: Wanting something to fail and observing that it looks like it will fail are two different things.

I feel really sorry for the guys and girls who got sucked into this mess and are now out of work. Same. I dealt with a few of them and they all seemed to have a lot of drive and enthusiasm for the venture. It's a shame the company appears to have used them and treated them like mushrooms.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Were most of the AA flightdeck crew already endorsed on type when they joined or have a few people who signed up to a bond now ended up as free agents?

BTW I'm not looking to play down the suffering of employees done wrong.

FRQ CB

[PoppaJo]

Most VC drivers were already experienced on type, and they were quite a experienced group in saying that. Most were ex Tiger.

Only A320 jobs in the country at the moment is really JQ, no idea if they are currently recruiting. Otherwise there is always Asia or EK!

[Metro man]

A few ex Ansett drivers who had been around overseas for a number of years and saw it as a chance to get back home. At least they have some expat experience and possibly a useful licence or two to help in the job hunt.

[1a sound asleep]

Strategic Airlines, a charter carrier contracted to fly more than 120,000 UK holidaymakers from Gatwick and Manchester this summer, is 49% owned by a company now in administration in Australia.

However, Luxembourg-registered Strategic Airlines SA confirmed it is separately controlled by its European management team and investors and unaffected by the failure of Air Australia on February 17.

Strategic Airlines commercial director Neil Huston told Travel Weekly: “The failure in Australia will not impact our continued operations. All our funding is generated by our own flying programme.”

Charter airline reassures Olympic after Air Australia collapse - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2012/02/24/39700/charter+airline+reassures+olympic+after+air+australia+collap se.html)

[BPA]

From the Brisbane Times.

Creditors of defunct airline Air Australia have been warned not to expect to recoup much money, if anything at all, after it was revealed the company had just $440,000 in the bank on the night it went into voluntary administration - compared to debts of between $80 million and $90 million.
During a one-hour meeting in Brisbane this morning, about 70 creditors, mostly employees of the failed low-cost airline, were told Air Australia's losses over the past 18 months totalled $65 million.
Mark Korda, from administrators KordaMentha, warned creditors the sale of Air Australia group assets was not expected to generate a large return.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Between $5 million and $6 million, held in security deposits for plane leases, had already been taken by those parties involved, he said.
He said creditors were looking at figures in the "hundreds of thousands" not the "tens of millions" for any asset sales, with any money recovered going straight to employee super payments.
ANZ Bank was listed as the major creditor and Mr Korda estimated its losses to be more than $20 million.
In describing Air Australia's losses as "horrendous" Mr Korda said Air Australia had been using advanced ticket sale money to cover the losses.
Approximately $65 million in tickets for future flights had been sold when the company ceased flying on February 17, stranding 4000 passengers.
Mr Korda said the losses appeared to have begun in 2010, when the company, then known as Strategic, lost its defence contract and instead made the decision to become a low-cost airline.
He said the company had been predicted to turn a small profit from March, but the losses in the months beforehand had crippled the business.
Mr Korda said Air Australia records had revealed employee super, mandated by law, had not yet been paid for the December quarter, or January.
Company director Michael James did not front the creditors meeting, however, Mr Korda said he believed him to still be in the country.
Mr Korda said Mr James had been co-operative with his staff and said it had been his prerogative as to whether he attended or not.
"I'm sure he is under a considerable amount of stress," he said.
Employees can expect to recoup $5 million of the $8 million owed them, through the federal government's Geers scheme, a program established to ensure part of employees entitlements are paid in the event of a company collapse.
However, Geers payments are capped at a salary of $118,000, meaning higher paid workers miss out on entitlements.
Mr Korda said an engineering company that traded under the Air Australia group umbrella had received attention from "four interested parties" but he could not discuss an anticipated sale price.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Cripes! :eek::ouch:
What is happening to the fleet? There has beeen a bit of movement at the station over the last couple of days by Strategic/AA liveried aircraft. Do the owners have to ferry them back to their bases?

[Icarus2001]

I'm sure he is under a considerable amount of stress," he said.
Please. All of his own making.

What about the stress of those 300 plus people who are now looking for work to pay their bills?

Perhaps he can go for a swim in his pool. That may make him feel better.

http://images.theage.com.au/2012/02/17/3049856/Air-Australia-directors-home-420x0.jpg

[1a sound asleep]

COLLAPSED budget airline Air Australia owes creditors up to 90 million dollars, and employees won't recoup all of their owed wages.
Administrators for the airline met with around 100 creditors at Brisbane's The Greek Club yesterday.
The meeting heard a federal government scheme would cover the 300 plus employees' unpaid wages, but limits payouts to 118 thousand dollars.
All up, only five million dollars of the eight million dollars owed in unpaid wages will be covered by the scheme.
Administrator KordaMentha partner Mark Korda says they've had four expressions of interest for the sale of the engineer business, but because the company leased everything there's not a lot to sell.
He expects about one million dollars to be made from sale of Air Australia's assets.


Read more: Air Australia owes up to $90 million | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/air-australia-owes-up-to-90-million/story-e6frfku0-1226285111305#ixzz1nkC1aQKO)

[Agent_86]

First of the Air Australia fleet has departed today - 29/2.

YQA (in Strategic c/s) departed BNE this earlier this morning. Currently in DRW and destined for SIN later today...

Being c/n 190 I wonder who will pickup this 'old girl'? :(

[shakta]

From the Honolulu Rare Birds website:

*** 02.27.12 Update ***
VH-SSA was ferried to ZRH (via YUL) from HNL on the 25th.

I also believe the ATLASJET A330 TC-ETK has also left Phuket heading back to Turkey.

[sandpit]

Anyone know what potential penalties apply to a company that trades whilst insolvent?

Also who is legally responsible and I guess potentially culpable in such a case? Directors? CEO? CFO? Auditors?

[Falling Leaf]

This is an almost exact re-run of Skyairworld, who owed around $80 mil in debt. Some things you can expect, GEERS will take around 3 months to get, and then they may only pay out half of your entitlements! I had to join AFAP to get the other half I was legally entitled to. Around 12-18 months after the event the administrator might get around to getting the CEO in court for trading while insolvent. Nothing happened with this one in the SAW case.

And three years down the track you will get some of your super back. I got a cheque from the ATO for $24 they recovered of the $5000 super I was not paid.

Good Luck everyone. Word of advice. Get your GEERS paperwork in and move on.:ok:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Thanks for the aircraft info.

Re Skyair and Ozjet, those of you with inside experience of either debacle should write to the Murdoch rags. There has been extensive coverage of the AA collapse, but IIRC even the Brisbane paper hasn't mentioned Skyair or Ozjet, certainly not in any detail.. There are a lot of paralells that they're not picking up on, and I think that because they were relatively low profile carriers the journos may have forgotten about them.

Pollies read papers.

[3 Holer]

Trading Insolvent (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/pdflib.nsf/LookupByFileName/Insolvency_guide_for_directors.pdf/$file/Insolvency_guide_for_directors.pdf)

It can be bad :ok:

[Marauder]

Bollocks,

generally when the administrator finishes his job ( has spent all the remaining money),

if there is no money left to examine whether the company traded whilst insolvent, one of two things occurs

1) he/she invites creditors to fund an examination as to whether the company traded whilst insolvent ( making more money for the administrator)

2) recommends winding the company up


Been there a few times and 2) is what happens, and got stiffed under GEERS as well, administrator used common law agreements to pay staff.


Directors walk away scott free, live in single daughters mansions, or prime river front $$$$$ properties

[grrowler]

Falling Leaf,

A $24 cheque from the ATO? How exciting, I look forward to receiving mine!

But as FL said, the initial amount from GEERS may be well short of your entitlements, and it's worth asking for a review. I think I ended up getting newrly double the initial amount (still short of what I was owed, but better than nothing).

[ButFli]

Anyone know what potential penalties apply to a company that trades whilst insolvent?

Also who is legally responsible and I guess potentially culpable in such a case? Directors? CEO? CFO? Auditors?There are no penalties for the company itself. It already owes more money than it has.

Directors can be fined (or imprisoned in extreme circumstances) and made personally liable for the debts of the company. CEOs are almost always directors. Even if they aren't directors by name the Corporations Act will make them directors by implication.

Auditors could potentially be sued for negligence or fraud.

*Not legal advice*

[Facts R Us]

"Mr James and his family companies are listed as the majority owner of Strategic Aviation, which operates an ageing fleet of three A320s, mostly flying between Manchester in the UK, Scandinavia and the Greek Isles. The rest of the company - 49 per cent - is owned by the now collapsed Australian venture, and KordaMentha said yesterday they were investigating what assets Strategic Aviation had in Luxembourg."

Given the above, whats the likely impact on the operation in Luxembourg from an Australian administrator / legal system point of view?

[down3gr33ns]

I had to join AFAP to get the other half I was legally entitled to

and are you still a member?

[gobbledock]

Mr James is a complete turd. Don't you love how this gutless weasel has gone to ground, man up you coward.

The other interesting thing is that under an airlines SMS adequate resources and finances is considered something that is or can be construed as a 'safety risk'. So if AA go bust as well as SAW an Ozjet what safety risks existed and for how long? Worse still, what the hell is the toothless inept Regulator with a capital R doing throughout these AOC holders financial and safety affected existence. If CASA aren't aware of an airlines financial, or lack of financial state, then this proves they are incompetent, out of their depth and incapable of accurately monitoring safety risks within Australlian aviation. If on the other hand CASA are aware of an operators dangerous financial situation what exactly are they doing about it? Sweet f#ck all by the look of things considering how many operators are going tits up!
CASA spent time over at AA not even a fortnight before Turd James empire came crashing down? Why? Was CASA aware of the financial problems or were they there over other matters?

Maybe CASA missed out on some vital clues because they were too busy attending workshops in Montreal or swallowing Turd James grandiose stories and visions of dominance, most of which he initially dreamed up while he was processing excess baggage while working the check-in counters for Ansett at Brissie airport?
And with all of AA's incurred debts of possibly $90 million which has been reported to have commenced in around 2010, why did the capital R regulator not pick up on any if this whilst they were approving AA's AOC, allowing more aircraft to be added to their AOC, approving new operating routes etc?
Yep as I thought, a blind and incompetent Regulator mixed with an AOC holder bleeding money is creating an elevated risk level in itself!!

Good work Skull, most certainly another fine example of 'safe skies for all'.

[Managers Perspective]

Wow talk about pushing your own barrow.

Who ever said that they were unsafe? That is an absolute slur on those that worked there and I think you should have a serious re-think about your comments.

Whilst you may have a hatred for the regulator, don't for a minute discredit the very capable and very professional staff that kept the airline safe through all this.

Bad taste.

MP

[Yarra]

Gobble, CASA's remit is not to provide health checks for an airlines finances. AA passed a safety audit weeks before they went belly up and that is that, CASA's job was done and they correctly ascertained that the airlines safety requirements were being fulfilled....

[international hog driver]

Gobbels, you are way off the mark here, as a matter of fact it is quite opposite.

The regulator can and does request a financial health check, I know because I have prepared one, as per any "accountant produced figures" they can be manipulated to represent any outcome you desire.

Regarding the "safety aspect" AA appears to be a very safety orientated, having intimate dealings with CASA on this I have seen how the regulator/FOI's can place undue burden upon an organisation in regard to the level of training, staffing, and the expense required to satisfy the regulators request.

AA have spent an absolute fortune on "training and safety systems" to overly satisfy the regulator. FACT.

Maybe if some of this overburden had not been spent on systems, consultants and contractors that were requested by the regulator then AA would have had more in the kitty at the end of the day.

The R part is one thing however, the lack of defined rules and process by some levels & individuals in CASA, is astonishing where perfectly working, internationally accepted method, process and qualification is accepted by one division/individual and not another is beggars belief.

I can tell you right now their are some individuals (CASA) who have constructed little empires in the belief that their instance of process and policy have had there desired result, AA is now the safest airline in Australia.... because they dont have an aircraft in the sky.

[gobbledock]

I am not personally saying that AA was unsafe. I am saying that if you apply what is contained in the elements or components of an SMS then finances and resources, or a lack of, is classed as a safety risk. Apply that to what occurred at AA and you have, according to the SMS, a heightened safety risk.

[d_concord]

Lets put this into perspective.

At the end of the day this is plain theft. The management knew what the position of the company was and chose to use creditors and customers money to fund an ill conceived venture. It never added up just like SAW. It was always going to end like this.

The day they used the money from a pre-purchased ticket as they only way to pay a liability was the day they were without doubt technically insolvent.

As for having the regulator decide a companies fate on the basis of financial viability. Give me a break... They can't manage themselves or regulate properly. To now have them as business advisers and assessors or know how to run a company is beyond belief.

I do agree that their job is to make sure all the requirements are met and yes they should be more vigilant when companies are under financial stress. It is a clear indicator but not one on which they should act alone.

[KittyBlue]

Operating insolvent. They had only 440,000 in cash and 90 million in debt, and not enough to pay the staff.

They were operating whilst they were insolvent. An illegal act.:ok:

[Jabawocky]

A debt to equity ratio of 200:1 :eek::eek::eek::eek:

How do the banks let this start...let alone continue :=

[TBM-Legend]

why do Australians always want to blame some third party eg banks, CASA, etc for the short comings of a commercial enterprise that failed?

The Soviet system that nothing failed because it was government owned and controlled failed too....

AA was a failed model from the start. Might have stood a chance sticking to FIFO charters but RPT is a different kettle of fish. You cannot sell $10 tickets for $9 and stay in business. Loads are nothing if the yield isn't there.

[Jabawocky]

TBM
why do Australians always want to blame some third party eg banks, CASA, etc for the short comings of a commercial enterprise that failed?

I hope you were not suggesting I was blaming the banks for the failure. I agree 100%, it is not up to CASA or anyone else to oversee a company and its affairs like that.

However....Banks like ANZ do require property developers etc to have large ammounts of equity before they underwrite a project, so why is it that the banks take on such underfunded, under planned, and under resourced operations, when they would never do that for a land development?

I know only a little about this from talking to one of the big end of town ANZ lending exec's who explained this to me recently. My insides were rolling in laughter when I heard this and compared it to some other bad investments made by ANZ in recent years that were just coming home to roost. Clearly ANZ were not too smart in the last 5 years, and nothing has changed.

The problem here is the bank suffers losses that affect shareholders, and the mum and dad folks fees and interest rates all go up. So my question is .......Why?? How do the banks let this start...let alone continue :=

Not enough due diligence from all parties involved. And nothing to do with CASA, and best that way too, they have enough to do and can't.

[TBM-Legend]

AA pre-sells lots of seats. Cash sits in the bank. Bank johnnies look at the balance. Mmmmm, business is booming let's lend against that. Aircraft flies, money goes out the door, more pre-sales...more $$$$

basically a pyramid scheme until the cash runs out.

[Animalclub]

Many years ago I was told by a TAA finance guy that all monies collected for future travel was placed in an "unearned revenue" account and only brought to account when the ticket (flight coupon) was actually used.

The monies in this "unearned revenue" account was used to play the money market... so I was informed.

Has this system changed?

[TBM-Legend]

That's what is supposed to happen or something similar.

There are accounting standards but they are not LAW.:confused:

[Eastwest Loco]

One msut realise that there is 2 weeks of IATA/BSP trading held in the IATA coffers.

That would be millions of bucks plus. Who would know.

After the AN collapse that was returned to the Agents in the case of cash transactions.

The 2 Marks then sought to regain it despite the fact that there were flown revenue overides to multiples of the amounts they tried to rip back that were treated as unsecured debts.

It didn't work very well.

The largest slice of the revenue held by IATA by far will be credit card and will melt like the snow in Spring as reversals come in by credit card.

I had 2 bookings on cash for 4 people total that I refunded just after 0700 on the morning of the breaking news and for the sake of my clients I hope they go through but even if they are cleared by IATA I will have to wait over 9 months to see if I can clear the funds back to the passengers.

Animalclub - Your info is right on the money.

My dad after being a LAME for TAA for many years did night school and became a CPA for them.

He was responsible for loading the "unearned revenue" onto the short term money market over 30 years ago.

I cannot remember the dollar values but I can remember they were scary back then to an 18 year old.

There is no big business that doesn't do it.

Best

EWL

[flying-spike]

Sounds good, but they weren't members of IATA,

[Hoofharted]

As an adjunct to Jaba's post, when asked at the first creditors meeting about a possible or perceived conflict of interest, the administrators were very very quick in declaring that they were "acting as advisers to the ANZ" and not to AA. Says a lot really doesn't it :rolleyes:

Be that as it may, businesses start and fail with monotonous regularity and when they do fail there is always collateral damage. While we may find someone or something to blame an emotionally "soothing balm", dwelling on this will not help those affected move on. In time (providing the ANZ adviser has his cash) the reasons for the failure will come to light.

All of us at AA if we are honest with ourselves, new deep down that this was a rocky road we traveled, but loved the journey none the less. To be honest, if another "start up" was to be attempted again some time in the future I would have another crack at it. I'm just so utterly fed up with the monopolies (Coles-Woolies, Big Four Banks, Qantas-Virgin, Telstra etc etc) running our lives and the choices we have.

Some go to the fair and choose the roundabout, I choose the roller-coaster every time. :ouch:

[Aviast]

Flying-spike: AA was using IATA Billing and Settlement Plan

How BSP Works (http://www.iata.org/ps/financial_services/bsp/pages/how_bsp_works.aspx)

[flying-spike]

Fair enough. I wasn't sure you could do that without being IATA accredited

[Eastwest Loco]

Spike

They were assigned and IATA number of 471. Just like QF is 081, Sing Air is 618, Ansett was 090 etc.

How then were Air Oz not IATA accredited? I issued tickets on them through IATA/BSP.

The cash refunds I processed for clients appear to have failed so now we must wait to see what comes of those. It was worth a shot.

The numbers that have come out aren't pretty but don't forget the 5.5 mil that their insurer is sitting on from the DPS breakdown, suibsequent HKT cancel and so on.

5.5 million is a nasty cash flow hole in anyones language.

Best all

EWL

[Jabawocky]

Apprarently all the big wigs received a 'bonus' just prior to the collapse.

Preferential payments???? Wonder if they get recalled?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And, just for info.....

'The 'MALAISE' Continues.....

From the AvWeb site (USA),....

" INDIA'S KINGFISHER ON THE ROPES
Days may be numbered for India's largest budget airline but Kingfisher Airlines is soldiering on even though the Indian government has frozen its bank accounts and its pilots are becoming less interested in going to work since they haven't been paid since November. The accounts freeze came last week after the airline failed to meet a deadline to pay millions in back taxes. Somehow, the airline is still finding crews to volunteer to fly the 28 remaining aircraft still operational (from a total fleet of 68) and it's still finding passengers willing to join them. Kingfisher's flamboyant CEO, Vijay Mallya, who lives part-time in Marin County near San Francisco, says his company will survive."

What IS it with these people..??

Crews NOT paid since November last???
Accounts frozen?
And this 'flamboyant' CEO lives in California..???

Hello....Hello....crews... Still 'Volunteering..??

'Drift' I know...but a similar drift....to the left....!!

No Cheers 'ere....:yuk:

[Hoofharted]

Interesting observations from J & M.

The "courier driver" will probably get away with whatever he has received despite his piss poor performance unless ofcourse, he has received a recent "bonus" which can be proven to "out of the ordinary" and a preferential payment. This in turn will depend on whether the "ANZ adviser" has enough cash in the kitty to fund this pursuit. Don't hold your breath.

If it does go down the path of insolvency and investigation just watch the rats run and hide, friendships will count for nothing and MJ will be left holding the bag.

[Aviast]

EWL: I believe flying-spike is referring to IATA membership which requires a carrier to pass the IOSA audit, which AA/Strategic had not (despite several aborted attempts to do so.)

Flying-spike: As if IATA is going to turn money away!!! :8

[Eastwest Loco]

Aviast

If VC was assigned an IATA number (471) and was operating through BSP which they indeed were the there was some form of compliance and/or acceptance of them into the fold.

IATA/BSP don't mess about as I found out 2 weeks ago. I was sure my bond was due 28 FEB but on 21 FEB I found out it was 20 FEB.

I am still in the the process of getting back the 95 Airline accreditations. Up to 55 now but that includes 3 new ones (that I needed) and I am over it.

IATA will cover anyone in Airline operations as they are never vunerable. They are a conduit between the client/Agent and the Airline. In no way are they financially vunerable as they are holding the cash funds for the Airline for up to 2 and a half weeks. The credit card funds are charged immediately by the Airline involved.

In the VC case there are probably millions of cash dollars sitting in IATA/BSP coffers, or most likely sunning themselves on the short term money market that were between us and the Airline. In the Ansett case, those dollars were eventually returned to Agents but then the 2 Marks went after them.

One must remember that SQ in the early days was assigned 618 as a "sorta" IATA member for a long time after splitting from the MSA alliance but IATA cleared their funds through Geneva or wherever the clearing house was then.

Spike

Aviast is right.

IATA make their dollars from the transit of dollars.

Grace L Ferguson Airlines and Storm Door Company incorporatyed in Walla Walla Washington would most likely get a guernsey with a couple of emails.

Best all

EWL

[flying-spike]

Yep, not arguing mate. Just didn't know how that worked

[Exgolfer]

MJ wants to start again !!!
Fallen Air Australia boss Michael James wants to run another company | Latest Business & Australian Stock market News | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/airline-boss-ready-to-take-off-again/story-fn7kjcme-1226295524092)

[Whiskery]

That's the spirit. Obviously wanting to repay the $90 million to creditors of Air Australia he's decided to get back to work !

[Anulus Filler]

Thieves never stop stealing

[porch monkey]

No, AF, you don't understand! It was everyone else's fault, all those nasty other airlines, the Internet, the aviation commentators, the refuellers and travel agents and a myriad of others! Not my fault at all, and I know where we went wrong last time. I deserve another chance! And you know what? I bet, down the track somewhere, he does get another chance. And you and I already know what the outcome is likely to be.:yuk:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Some people should be made to wear a hat with a government health warning on it whenever they are out in public, something like: 'This man will probably rip you off.' :ugh:

[Cargo744]

The new heavy cargo of the aus airline industry. Just hope that. The former employees he contacted well and truly told him where to shove his new business plan.

[gobbledock]

Of course he wants to start again. There is good money in aviation for some. Hmmm MJ went 'bust' did he? If that were the case he would be right now looking for a Job at McDonalds or as a traffic controller so he can feed his family now that they 'lost everything'! No, clowns like this always have a nice healthy stash of moolah squirreled away somewhere safely.
Grub.

[Woodwork]

Of course he wants to start again. There is good money in aviation for some. Hmmm MJ went 'bust' did he? If that were the case he would be right now looking for a Job at McDonalds or as a traffic controller so he can feed his family now that they 'lost everything'! No, clowns like this always have a nice healthy stash of moolah squirreled away somewhere safely.
Grub.

It's a pretty well-established tenet of capitalist economies that you must be free to start a business without risking your personal financial assets - otherwise, no one would ever bother. This isn't compulsory - lots of sole directorships start like Bill Gates out of their garage with a second mortgage - but aviation requires capital, and lots of it. To attract investors you create a limited-liability entity under the Corporations Act, in which the investors are assured that they're only ever on the hook to the maximum extent of the investment.

Anyone who extends credit - be they a refueller, landlord, ticketing agent, aircraft lessor, anyone - is taking a risk that the company they are lending to will not pay them back. They have an obligation to perform their own due diligence and not cry "waah, poor me" when they've extended more credit than they could afford to a company that pretty obviously could never pay it back.

No one is alleging fraud or illegal conduct in the Air Australia collapse and on the face of it there hasn't been. Unethical perhaps, highly risky for sure, but that's not illegal and you shouldn't go to jail or lose your house for that.

[TheWholeEnchilada]

It's a pretty well-established tenet of capitalist economies that you must be free to start a business without risking your personal financial assets
Not so, you may want to check out the book "Gangs Of America (http://www.gangsofamerica.com/gangsofamerica.pdf)" [free download from the authors site, and a great read] that meticulously details the legal history of the modern corporate structure from its beginnings as "companies" given charter by Monarchs to loot & plunder much of India, Asia & the East Indies as territories. The corporation and limited liability is a relatively modern invention through a series of court cases after the US civil war to the 1930's. Capitalism operated successfully long before the modern corporation arrived.

Business owners & directors who are shield themselves from liability via these structures are free to take excessive risks because there is no risk to them personally. Directors of banks in Switzerland are personally liable for all their wealth, and operate in a more conservative manner than in other jurisdictions. Capitalism is about risk & reward. Remove the risk, and you no longer have capitalism. What we have now is a system of crony capitalism.

[MASTEMA]

Woody

The AA employee's facing ruin may disagree with your "tenet of capitalist economies" statement.

Based on your previous posts you appear to have a legal background and I verily believe you are one of the cashed up exclusive brethren.

I welcome you to stand up at the creditors meeting March 23rd and repeat your sentiments.

The hearse and the pallbearers will wait outside. :)

[sandpit]

No one is alleging fraud or illegal conduct in the Air Australia collapse and on the face of it there hasn't been.

Reportedly $36M in forward ticket sales collected. Reportedly sales made and money collected up to the night of shutdown. Debts of $90M. Only $400K in the piggybank.

I'm no lawyer, but you would have to be suspicious that there has been some conduct there that is illegal in relation to the corporations act - intentional or not. I believe ignorance of the law is not a viable defence. Whether it is pursued is of course another matter.

[zanzibar]

Unethical perhaps, highly risky for sure, but that's not illegal

but trading insolvently is illegal.

and you shouldn't go to jail or lose your house for that.

yes, you most certainly should.

[yowieII]

How many have been done for trading insolvent in Aus recently???

[ButFli]

How many have been done for trading insolvent in Aus recently???Hundreds. Mostly small-time, inexperienced and out-of-their-depth directors of small Pty Ltd companies.

[TBM-Legend]

Hard to get an insolvency conviction when one considers the number of companies that go under each year....



There has not been a large number of insolvent trading cases in Australia (our research revealed 103 cases in total). Although the insolvent trading provisions were introduced into companies legislation in
1 Insolvent Trading Research Report
1961, we were unable to find any cases from the 1960s. In the 1970s there were ten cases and in the 1980s there were sixteen cases. There was a rapid increase to 62 cases during the 1990s. However, the number of cases decided has since slowed, with only 15 cases decided since the end of the 1990s

[Cargo744]

The accc and asic are both toothless tigers and therefore nothing will happen and mj knows this. His arrogance is as big as his ego. The govt has no balls when it comes to this but the major creditors such as anz could take a stand if they want to spend some dollars. Will it happen? Hopefully

[TBM-Legend]

ANZ chase money and personal guarantees not pro-ported "crime"...therefore MJ may face personal bankruptcy if they pursue guarantees to the very end. In many cases banks and other lenders don't go that far if there is nothing to get!

[yowieII]

Quote:
How many have been done for trading insolvent in Aus recently???
Hundreds. Mostly small-time, inexperienced and out-of-their-depth directors of small Pty Ltd companies.

Yep...

[Rabbitwear]

You hit the nail on the head alloy.
Unfortunately if you get to close to the pulse or ruffle the feathers of the big guys then look out.
I always laugh at how pilots think they are professionals when in reality they are cowards protected by seniority. A totally divided workforce where your future is decided by your start date.
Unfortunately i am a victim of the system my command is now gone and not recoverable so im looking at working in the mines rather than be a Tiger F/O.

[MASTEMA]

Tiger is looking for 15 DECs, Jetstar looking for DECs, Korean, Air China, Emirates, China Southern, China Airlines, Vietnam, Qatar, etc, etc, all looking for DECs. Possessing the correct attitude, a valid medical before flying and a past career that doesn't look like someone stepped in very fresh Great Dane poop helps.

Back to the thread.

KordaMentha's latest report is out and it aint pretty. The sole Director of the many companies has yet to supply a compliant report. Creditors will see nothing of the $90 million owed. KM have taken $400k to date of the $420k that was left and it appears that employee's may get a very small amount of their stolen $2 million in super and only about 1/3 of their $10 million in entitlements. KM is going back 6 months looking for preferential payments. With only $20k left in the kitty, KM have recommended that all of the companies be liquidated (except SEA).

The minute a company reaches the point where they are unable to pay their employee's super and full entitlements, they should be deemed insolvent. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif

[tail wheel]

The minute a company reaches the point where they are unable to pay their employee's super and full entitlements, they should be deemed insolvent.

The Corporations Act 2001 (Cth) (s95A[2]) defines a person (including a body corporate) which is not solvent as being insolvent. The enquiry which should be made under the section to ascertain whether a company is insolvent is as follows: Is the company able to pay all of its debts as and when they become due and payable?

To answer this question it may be necessary to consider the following:
cash reserves expected to be available at the time when debts become due;
adequacy of working capital/cash flow;
available (and reliable) sources of funding;
the company’s ability to borrow;
times and dates for payment;
reliability of promises which have been made by creditors to pay; and
assets available for realisation and the value they will realise (and whether this would involve the company in a voidable transaction or preference).


So, in general, "the minute a company reaches the point where they are unable to pay their employee's super and full entitlements" when they beome due and payable, they possibly could be deemed insolvent.

Whether any action is taken against Directors for insolvent trading is another matter.

[joblogs]

Rabbitwear. Must be a terrible job at tiger to want to dig holes in 40 degree heat in the middle of no where. Intereresting ....

[MASTEMA]

Failed Air Australia boss Michael James living the high life | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/failed-airline-boss-living-the-high-life/story-e6frfm1i-1226302861999)

Hefty photo in the front yard, he must be waiting for the new 'face' of BestJet Travel to deliver some low fat milk :)

[Rabbitwear]

Simple answer , its all about the money , job satisfaction has been eroded in all industries. So mining for me 200k or fo in tiger 100k. Or jq f/o in Drw 90k with massive overheads.
My only flying options are off shore.
Ithink Alloy was banned for lending his handle to an anonymous goof, but had some critical things to say about the moderators who banned him, these forums are a disgrace and freedom of speech is not welcome here.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re your
'to want to dig holes in 40 degree heat in the middle of no where. Intereresting .... '

I don't think you really have an appreciation of what 'mining' can be these days,
You roll out of your self-contained full facilities a/c 'donga', walk to the a/c mess, get fed, get into the a/c bus to drive you to the job site, which may be quite some distance away, step into your a/c 'Haul Pack', and do the reverse at the end of the 12 hour shift...with 'meals on wheels' as the shift progresses ....
Whats not to like for your $$$$'s

:=:=

[Icarus2001]

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/03/17/1226302/621250-michael-james-owner-of-failed-air-australia-believed-to-be-living-in-a-riverfront-property-at-35-mcconnell-st-bulimba.jpg


Since the airline's demise last month there has been silence from their 34-year-old boss, who remains behind closed doors - the doors of a rented riverside mansion in Brisbane's trendy Bulimba.

Read more: Failed Air Australia boss Michael James living the high life | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/failed-airline-boss-living-the-high-life/story-e6frfm1i-1226302861999#ixzz1pQlH8Yjm)

Perhaps he should?

[wheels_down]

Tiger are paying north of 120k for FO currently, only thing is alot of AA tech crew left TGW for AA.

[Busboy92]

Jesus H Christ, bugger the laws on insolvent trading. They should invoke a law that anyone that looks like that should not be allowed to take off their shirt, and certainly not be allowed to parade around in public with shirt off.

:yuk::yuk::yuk::sad::sad::sad::{:{:{

[joblogs]

apparently 8 or so pilots goin back to TT from AA..back to commuting but unless you want to commute to the sandpit or se asia tt is the quickest progression to a commnd in Aus.

[DeltaT]

JB where are you getting your pilot numbers going to Tiger from?

[joblogs]

Usual source. The refueller...

[Ozdork]

It's officially all over

Air Australia creditors vote to wind-up company after it collapsed with $85m in debts | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/air-australia-creditors-vote-to-wind-up-company-after-it-collapsed-with-85m-in-debts/story-fn6ck2gb-1226308328598)

[pull-up-terrain]

So mining for me 200k or fo in tiger 100k
You're dreaming to think that you will get $200k first year in the mines. At the last mine site i was working at there was only 4 people out of the 500 workers that earnt over $180k... (They were managers with 20 years experience).
The mining contract truck company my uncle owns pays his truck drivers $100k per year to do 14 12 hour days on, 9 days off. I know what i would rather be doing for $100k...

[mostlytossas]

You are quite correct Pull up. I have a mate who is a tradie in the mines on around $130,000/ yr. Sounds good but once you do the sums it is an hourly rate of about $30. No better if as good as in any capital city job.
What pulls the wage up ofcourse is the penalty rates for the 12hr shifts and weekend work. eg after 8 hrs it is time and a half for the next 2 hours then double time. Saturdays are time and a half for the first 2 hrs then double time thereafter. Sundays double time all day etc. Public hols 2.5 times etc. That is why the mining companies have rolled it up into a salary as it saves them money.
Anyone could earn that kind of money if they do those hours. The problem ofcourse is that usually you have to go to out of the way places like the mines to get the opportuinty to get that amount of overtime,due to the skill/labour shortage out there.
Add in the top tax rate and lack of family time (if your married) and you wonder if it is really worth doing.

[Busboy92]

Yeah good on ya MilkMan. I reckon previous posters are right, you'd be one of those rocket surgons from the companies executive team who made all those great decisions that racked up the debt while fleecing the public, knowing that there was no way they were gunna get to use their tickets. Yeh, well done :D

Proud of the $85 Mil are we - Ticket holders and creditors get zip, staff lucky to get half, and by the sounds of it from the paper, those that did salary sacraficing - even less. Beat SkyAir World by a cuntry mile. Yeah, bloody well done mate. :D

Yeah great job mate..... QUEENSLANDER!!! I hear you cry.

Yet all you can to is dump on a guy I knew when he was here at tiger and for my money was one of the best operators I have had the pleasure to fly with. Not like some in AA from tiger. Great at talking the talk, but when trying to walk the walk they looked very bloddy average, stumbling all over the place, like a drunken barrel of rum.

So you reckon AA sacked him eh??? What would that have been for Milky? Wouldnt have been for telling a few fellas that the airline was crap and about to collapse would it?? Well if so, it looks like he was spot on!! He deserves a medal in my book. Pitty some of you p$icks didnt do the same!!

Meanwhile, Milky and co. keept their heads in the trough. Maybe if you and your mates put down your $100 bottles of wine and your designer beers and left the parties in Phuket and Hawaii to check how the business was going, he might not have been forced to warn his mates.

Anyway, from what those guys tell me he has the official resignation letter , so your way off with the sacking crap.

I reckon he would have done a better job than the fella the paper said was a former delivery driver.... Hey, hang on.... Delivery Driver.... Milk Man...... now I get it. You are one of them.

Or, hang on, maybe..... Milk...... Mammaries....... could it be - Gobbledock mentioned something about jugs...... could it be!!

Obviously you execs would be the ones with the time on your hands to start a new Pprune handle and mouth off as a probationary ppruner. All makes sense now.

Well done you p$icks. Why don't you crawl back into your holes and let my mates get on with their lives and try and recover from the antics of a total bloody fool, who should never be allowed anywhere near aviation again or business again.

Whats that old saying.... usesless as tits on a bull? Reckon we can change that now, just for avitaion stuff.... "useless as tits on MJ". :p

[airtags]

Just asking.....did KordaMentha list one or two suspects' Frequent Flyer points ........
.................strange how there were an awful lot of P class status credits......and I hear a change to one or two FF profiles that predate the appointment of the administrator by half a heart beat .......along with the odd hefty xfer of points.

Meanwhile the former employees are lining up at Centrelink & those on the dodgy contracts are out in the cold.

Albo and his IASC have a lot to answer for given the route approvals issued to Strategic/AA in the 10 months prior. Actually throw in few delegated approvals to the JQ franchises while we're asking the question!

AT:E

[flying-spike]

I hope your post does stay on the thread. It proves you to be the half back flanker that you are. I had the pleasure to fly with Capt. Flight Centre on a number of occasions and he impressed me as being highly professional. I am glad he has found another gig as I do all the other genuine people who helped keep the organisation together while the rot started at the top.

[MASTEMA]

Okay Milko, where were you and MJ then? At the Cricketers Club still spending the employee's superannuation?

Why would the FC guy turn up? He resigned (Deed of Release signed by MJ and Legal counsel and I have seen it), was paid out and has moved on.

From my lowly observation point he worked his ring off for MJ to the point of burnout and was stabbed in the back more than once by those he helped for his efforts. He has now moved on from all of the cocaine and alcohol soaked nutjobs who ruined what was the best gig going.

Let it go and time for you to dry out. Nurse!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

Back to the thread- I just want my 1/3 of my redundancy (sucks!) and at least some of my salary sacrificed super before someone drinks or snorts it! Surely it must consitute fraud to show the SS deduction on the payslip and yet keep the funds?

[gobbledock]

Another stellar example below of how the worlds systems are crooked, corrupt, biased, out of touch with reality and completely f#cked.

Failed airline operator Air Australia on the spot over superannuation entitlements

FORMER airline boss Michael James had not paid staff superannuation entitlements for more than four months when Air Australia collapsed, yet it seems unlikely he will be criminally charged.


Administrator Mark Korda of KordaMentha confirmed the 354 staff had not been paid any super for the December quarter, or in the period leading up to the airline's collapse on February 17.

Staff who contributed their own top-up payments to superannuation also appear to have lost their money, totalling more than $1.3 million.

Mr Korda said the outstanding super payments were among $4 million in entitlements owed to staff that was unlikely to be recovered.

"Superannuation payments are not covered by the Federal Government's compensation scheme,'' he said.

In June 2010, the Cooper Review of Superannuation recommended the Federal Government include unpaid super contributions to the government compensation scheme known as GEARS.

The recommendation was designed to overcome the problem of workers losing super as a result of company collapses. As yet, the Government has failed to act on that.

Under Australian Taxation Office arrangements, companies that
owe superannuation to employees at the time of their collapse are generally not pursued.

"If an employer fails to pay the superannuation guarantee charge, the Commissioner for Taxation can sue for recovery, although in practice this rarely (if ever) happens,'' states the ATO website.

Pilot Tom Marsden not only missed out on compulsory superannuation contributions from Air Australia but his own top-up payments of more than $10,000.

The 57-year-old was salary sacrificing as much as $3000 a month towards superannuation but even this money was unpaid in the airline's last four months of operation. "To me it is theft. The mney was shown to have been deducted from my salary on my payslips but it never reached the superannuation fund, it never arrived. Where did it go? It looks to me to be fraudulent,'' Captain Marsden said.

"I am considering going to the police.''

Mr Korda was yesterday unable to say if Mr James could face criminal charges for failing to pay compulsory sperannuation contributions.

Spokesmen for the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and
the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority both said it was a matter for
the ATO.

When are the pathetic Governments going to start protecting its citizens? Captain Marsden minded his own business, I imagine worked hard for a living and then got **** on twice in my opinion.
How can somebody salary sacrifice extra money only to have it never forwarded on to his super trustee? How can this not be classed as theft or embezzlement?
And of course the ATO stand by this crap;
Under Australian Taxation Office arrangements, companies that owe superannuation to employees at the time of their collapse are generally not pursued.
"If an employer fails to pay the superannuation guarantee charge, the Commissioner for Taxation can sue for recovery, although in practice this rarely (if ever) happens,'' states the ATO website.
But it is a different story if you owe these as#holes (ATO) money isn't it?

HARD TO TELL WHO IS THE BIGGEST PIG??
http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/03/17/1226302/621250-michael-james-owner-of-failed-air-australia-believed-to-be-living-in-a-riverfront-property-at-35-mcconnell-st-bulimba.jpg

OR

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkZTD0AkHQHAa_WAStHsmALPSYSOGbaMwtwpC35hT 2tzl0D66b5w


OR

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVhOpuu1Jf61ALZ0HW2CxQtsLJ312ZO8oC-LPnW7yx8Kmd8iJp

[Metro man]

"If an employer fails to pay the superannuation guarantee charge, the Commissioner for Taxation can sue for recovery, although in practice this rarely (if ever) happens,'' states the ATO website.

Very true, I filed a complaint about non payment of superannuation from a previous employer. I received a letter of acknowledging receipt of my complaint and they did SFA about it, I never heard another thing.:yuk:

[cart_elevator]

Nice 4WD for someone who didn't pay his staff their entitlements and super..He obviously is fed very well too! :mad:

What a shame for the employees,I have some friends who were there..they are gutted.