Flying the approach. Few questions..

[z.khalid]

Using this chart for example.
http://tonetcarlo.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/ick.jpg

On the approach, is the 039 degrees flown as a radial from the VOR, and then you intercept the localizer after 9 DME once alive?

In general also, when flying an ILS for example, and have a procedure turn, you have your final approach course set, frequency tuned, is the outbound before making a 180 degree to your final approach flown as heading or course?

I hope the question makes sense.

Thank you

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yes the 039 is a VOR radial. You will fly that radial until 9d then start the turn to intercept.

The outbound course in a procedure is usually a radial from a navaid but you will find some procedures where you will have to fly a prescribed track without reference to a navaid. For example, a circling approach.

[TopBunk]

z.k

You track the 039 Radial from CIA outbound to 9.0 d (which puts you over the same geographical point irresepective of the wind). At that point you make a continuous turn left onto a heading to intercept the localiser inbound course of 202 (probably heading about 230 or 240, depending on the wind to give a good intercept angle). All this time you have been descending from 5000ft overhead CIA and should not descend below 2600ft, which at 6.9d on the ILS inbound should give you glideslope intercept (by which point you should already have intercepted the localiser).

Hope that helps

[z.khalid]

Thanks for the quick responses.
Definitely does help.
I don't have a chart to show you what exactly I mean when asking my next question.
On an ILS approach chart I see sometimes a full procedure turn where you turn outbound, and then inbound where you intercept the localizer.

At such a case will the outbound just be a certain heading? And then once reached a certain distance you turn and intercept the localizer approach for the inbound course?

Hope my question makes sense..

[TopBunk]

z.k

I can come up with an answer to a question, but I am not sure it is your question .... come up with a plate as an example and I am sure the people here will answer it as proved above.

[z.khalid]

TopBunk,

Firstly, thanks for the responses.
This is a chart I found on the net, very simplified one obviously.
http://www.flightsimbooks.com/learning/121-1.jpg

I don't quiet understand why the profile view doesn't show the whole procedure, turning to 091, and then 271, before intercepting the localizer at 316.
So when flying this approach and having your localizer frequency set and final approach course at 316, how exactly is the approach done?

Is the 136 a radial from the vor? And then the 091 / 271 both selected magnetic headings you fly, until you intercept your localizer at 316?

Thanks again for the help..

[eckhard]

Hi zk,

I posted this reply before your last post (number 6) so I will look at your chart and may reply again. In the meantime, here is what I said:

I think what you're describing is a 45/180 procedure turn. This is flown by reference to headings and times.

You start by flying away from the airfield on the reciprocal of the localiser course.

The start of the turn is defined by some means (DME, crossing radial, bearing to an NDB, timing, etc).

Some procedures don't define the start of the turn but just say, 'complete the PT within 10nm'.

When you reach the defined start point, you start your stopwatch and turn in the correct direction through 45 degrees. You are trying to achieve a track of 45 degrees from the original, so due allowance must be made for wind (drift).

After 1 min 15 sec (or 1 min for slower aircraft) you turn 180 degrees in the opposite direction. The timing must also allow for any headwind or tailwind component.

The new heading (again adjusted for wind) will put you on a 45 degree intercept for the localiser.

This procedure normally includes a descent to the 'platform altitude', from which the final descent on the glidepath is commenced.

Hope this is what you wanted to know,

Eck

[eckhard]

OK I looked at the chart.

As you say, it is a simplified version, probably designed for a Flight Training Device, but still a useful way of learning the principles.

There is a VOR/DME on the field, frequency 110.0.

You fly outbound on the 136 radial.

At some point after 6DME (undefined, but about 8DME seems reasonable) you start a procedure turn to the left.

Apart from the note that this is a 2 minute leg, it is flown as I described in my first post.

You finish the procedure turn at 2600ft (the 'platform altitude') and then descend on the ILS, frequency 109.1.

Note that depending on your avionics fit, you may have to retune the NAV receiver from the VOR to the ILS when you are on the 091 leg. You may have to 'hold' the DME. On the other hand, you may be able to track the VOR outbound on NAV 2 and have the ILS set on NAV 1.

You also could track the ILS localiser away from the field on 136 degrees, but that may involve a bit of interpretation, depending on the displays fitted to the aircraft.

[z.khalid]

eckhard,

Thank you for the response.
It definitely does make sense, and I do understand the concern with re tuning depending on avionics fit.

Just one thing that I want to clarify.
When flying outbound on the radial 136, is the left turn to 091 just a heading, or is this also a radial?

If I am not wrong, both 091 and 271 are magnetic headings, not a course you need to intercept.

Thanks again!

[bfisk]

They are headings, but they should be corrected for known or expected winds.

Normally the 45/180 procedure turn could be replaced with a 80/260 turn if you prefer.

For clarification and future reference, your original question/plate does not depict a procedure turn pr se, but a base turn.

[eckhard]

Just one thing that I want to clarify.
When flying outbound on the radial 136, is the left turn to 091 just a heading, or is this also a radial?

If I am not wrong, both 091 and 271 are magnetic headings, not a course you need to intercept.

As bfisk says, they are headings. If you want to be pedantic, they are actually tracks, as you should always allow for wind (as he/she points out).

The 80/260 turn may be substituted for a 45/180 (unless specifically prohibited) but I've always wondered how difficult it might be to allow for wind using that method.

If 091 and 271 were courses/radials, there would be an NDB or VOR lined up with them. This radio beacon would have to be shown on the chart with its frequency. There is no way* that the beacon on the field could be used to fly the 091/271 legs as they do not point to the beacon.

bfisk also correctly points out that your first example is not a classical procedure turn as it is not a course reversal. You leave the beacon on one course and approach it on another. That is called a base turn. It can be confusing because both turns are part of an instrument approach procedure.

*I suppose with an RNAV set-up, like the KNS-80, you could create waypoints using the VOR/DME on the field but the defining radials and distances would have to be published. With a modern RNAV (GPS/FMS) you could also enter lats/longs but again they would need to be published. This complicates the whole manoeuvre which is supposed to be a simple way of reversing your course using headings and stopwatch.