Why be aircraft type specific?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Dear lovely people who look after us mad pilots,

Out of curiosity could you explain to this rotary pilot why you tell us/me in your clearances to confirm if we are visual with a Boeing 737 /Airbus 319/320/321 / Glufstream something or other?

I don't have a fixed wing licence, they simply don't rock my boat, hence I have not a great deal of knowledge of the many varieties and flavours my fellow aviators steeds come in.

Alright I lie I do know and love the 747 & Concorde & AN225 and the 380 but they ain't going to let me swap onto one of them the next day.

It doesn't help as well when asked to confirm said fixed wing type when he is A painted in white and B still a dot.

I don't expect my fellow aviators to know every type of helicopter which is out there beating the air into submission.

I have discussed this with a fellow aviator who does fly fixed wing and he did agree with me it's a bit much expecting us to know all the different types of fixed wing.

Could we not maybe boil it down to it's an easyjet or fixed wing?

Thoughts?

If this was a stupid question then please accept my sincerest and humblest apologies and I will scuttle back to the Rotorheads forum at speed.

If you managed to read this far than let me at least thank you for looking after me and granting me my many out of the ordinary not exactly in the book requests. Much appreciated.:ok::ok::ok:

[fujii]

Brilliant Stuff,
The aircraft type is included with traffic information because ATC doesn’t know the experience of each pilot. Although you may not recognise all aircraft, many pilots do, so ATC uses issues inclusive information so you can use what can. If you have trouble finding/following/avoiding the traffic, advise the controller who can then be more specific. Including the type can also increase your situation awareness. Even though it may be white or a dot, the type also gives you an indication of speed and whether the wings are on top (Cessna) or under (Piper), for when the dots take on some form. Helicopters are easy; the wing (rotor) is always on top so often traffic is passed as “a helicopter” rather than a type.
This is similar to pilot phraseology when arriving at an uncontrolled airfield, you include your type with the inbound call although you don’t know who else is in the air.

[mad_jock]

[QUOTEAlthough you may not recognise all aircraft, many pilots do, [/QUOTE]

I wouldn't bet on it.

Bizjet

Heavy

Regional Jet

Turboprop

4 holer

3 holer

big fecker (antinovs etc)

Light aircraft.


Are all useful

At 5 miles you can't tell much more than that even if you do know the different flavours of boeing or airbus.

And as fro the speeds i just presume its just 160 to 4 like every other aircraft should be doing and 180 on base and 210 on the downwind. Light aircraft 90 knts

[ShyTorque]

The Kai Tak controller once asked me if I was visual with "The little Fokker on the IGS".

Cue: Sniggers all round.

He then added "I've waited years to say that! :ok:"

I've got a fighting chance of recognising many fixed wing types - but not when they ask you and it's dark!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Point taken.

[Gonzo]

There is also a safety element to this; by identifying the aircraft type specifically then there is less potential for confusion.

If I say 'give way to the British Airways A320 from the right' then it's pretty obvious which aircraft I want you to give way to.

If I say give way to the 'aircraft' from the right, and there's one that has just crossed your nose, and another one approaching from off to the right and one coming from the left, which one do I mean? I might have made a left/right error and mean the one off to the left, or I might mean the one off to the right, but I might also assume that you can't see that one and actually mean the one in your 12 o'clock that had come from the right.

At the end of the day, if you don't know the type mentioned, tell ATC that and they will use other information to identify the traffic to you.

[mad_jock]

Its the the British Airways bit that gives the useful information not the aircraft type.

[Gonzo]

And if all three aircraft are British Airways? If it's a liveried aircraft then we have to include livery and type.

[fisbangwollop]

Dont worry about it....I think you will find that most of the younger ATCO's coming into the job couldn't tell the difference either between a 757 or a BAC1-11..!!....It's a fact, in days gone by most of us coming into the job came because we had an interest in aviation ( dare I mention the word spotter ) nowadays folk leave Uni without a clue what there going to do...they see an advert for ATC then they see the salary....job done.:cool::cool::cool:

P.S......and going by our companies Intranet daily "photo of the day" we have a better chance at learning the identity of a particular breed of cat or dog rather than an aircraft type!!!...:confused:

[mad_jock]

If they are all BA or finnair or any of these large legacy multi fleet companys you won't get me accepting a conditional clearance unless it something sensible like after the 747. But if its in the realms of picking a 2 engined 737 sized aircraft out from similar sized aircraft that are all the same company its just not worth the risk.

Its that A320 737-800 size of aircraft its an issue with.

It was quite good when BA painted the tails with mankie colours it helped recognition no end.

[Wojtus]

ATCO just gives you additional information about the traffic, you're no obliged to "identify" it. But it might be useful, eg. knowing if the dot is 737 or 767 will help you to judge the distance.

[fisbangwollop]

Mad Jock....I bet "Continue after the "Jetstream" on left base will confuse a few.......there's certainly nothing Jet or Stream about them !!!:E:E:E

[mad_jock]

Actually it does cause issues with jets mainly because we are going that fast.

If a controller isn't used to TP's they presume that the jet will always be faster. When in real practise TP's can rattle in 200knts plus to under 6 DME. And we can dump allot of height off in a surprisingly low mileage. A7.0 on the down wind mid field its not a problem turning finals at 3.5 miles fully stabilised.

As sarcastic comment to an approach controller at MAN by a 767 about putting us in first visual was met by "Don't worry its a hot little ship that one he won't get in your way" Just as we switched to tower the 767 was getting told that we had +60 knts on him in ground speed and a presume he was hammering in to try and prove a point to the controller.

[5milesbaby]

Also not forgetting that the callsign ATC have may not reflex the actual airline and markings so giving conditionals with respect to just the airline could also lead to some confusion. BMI/Lufthansa/Star Alliance aircraft come to mind.

[rymle]

Dont worry about it....I think you will find that most of the younger ATCO's coming into the job couldn't tell the difference either between a 757 or a BAC1-11..!!....It's a fact, in days gone by most of us coming into the job came because we had an interest in aviation ( dare I mention the word spotter ) nowadays folk leave Uni without a clue what there going to do...they see an advert for ATC then they see the salary....job done.

Errr, wrong. Aircraft recognition is an own class, embedded in the Common Core Contents.

[alfaman]

you will find that most of the younger ATCO's coming into the job couldn't tell the difference either between a 757 or a BAC1-11

That's right Rymle -a typical old ATCOsaurus comment. There are fifty required types ATCO Trainees are required to have a reasonable knowledge of, & as the dear old BAC1-11 doesn't feature in that list, since they're banished for being too noisy...there's not much point knowing what they look like, is there...:rolleyes:

[bingofuel]

nowadays folk leave Uni without a clue what there going to do...they see an advert for ATC then they see the salary....job done

So how do they get through the selection procedure with no real desire to do the job?, or is it because the HR people are running their own empire.

[bingofuel]

If a controller isn't used to TP's they presume that the jet will always be faster.

Not just TPs, many years ago I was vectored onto a very long final and then requested to slow down as I was gaining on the B737 ahead......I was flying a piston twin!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Well thanks again for all your input, all very valid and paints a good picture of what we are up against.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Waaaay back it was considered to be "belt and braces", although an ex-colleague of mine was heard to say: "Follow the kite coming from your right". (You reading this K??)

[Thone1]

That very thing happened to me once. I was crossing a major airport with the mighty Squirrel HT3.
The clearance read something like: "You´re cleared to cross the active runway behind the A319, Air So-and-So".
I advised that I wash´t familiar with that type and after some more hints the controlled cleared me to cross "behind that yellow aircraft". Not at all mocking me, that was indeed very helpful! :ok:

Tom

[Tower Controller]

Out of curiosity could you explain to this rotary pilot why you tell us/me in your clearances to confirm if we are visual with a Boeing 737 /Airbus 319/320/321 / Glufstream something or other?

Years and years of tradition unhampered by progress

[betterfromabove]

This really is a surprising thread. :uhoh:

Anyone who decides to get voluntarily airborne should surely take more than passing interest in those other bits of metal, fabric, wood or fancy composites buzzing around with you?!?

Surely we have all been in situations in or around approaches/circuits where who/what you're following is critical?!

ATC are really trying to help.

Maybe an aircraft recognition module would be useful as part of the FCL ground exams?!?