Qantas A380 crew honoured

[Heliport]

The Crew of Flt QF032 (Airbus 380 VH-OQA) has been awarded the prestigious Hugh Gordon-Burge Memorial Award by the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN).
Awarded to 'a member or members of a crew whose outstanding behaviour and action contributed to the saving of their aircraft or passengers.'

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/QantasA380crew.jpg

Citation:Shortly after takeoff on 4 November 2010 from Singapore Changi Airport at about 7,000 feet, a loud bang was heard in the cockpit of Flight QF032, followed by indications of a failure to the No 2 engine. It was subsequently discovered that the RR Trent 900 engine’s IP turbine hub had broken into several large pieces which caused significant damage to the wing and to a number of systems of the A380 aircraft. Minor injuries occurred to some people on Batam Island in Indonesia as debris from the aircraft rained down.

The Captain, Richard de Crespigny, held the aircraft at 7,000 feet. It soon became apparent that auto thrust had failed. Indications of No 2 engine overheat, and subsequently of fire, were dealt with but there was no confirmation that the fire extinguisher had discharged. After discharging the second fire extinguisher without confirmation, the engine fire warning was replaced by an overheat warning. A PAN call was made. The Captain placed the aircraft in a holding pattern close to the airport while First Officer Mathew Hicks, dealt with more than 50 messages on the aircraft’s systems monitoring and alert system.

The list was considerable:
The No 2 Engine display showed a ‘failed’ mode, while engines 1 and 4 were in ‘degraded’ mode
The green hydraulic system indicated low pressure and low quantity and the yellow hydraulic system indicated engine 4 pump cautions
AC 1 and 2 electrical bus system indicated failure
Flight controls were in ‘alternate law’
Wing slats were inoperative, spoiler control was reduced and aileron control was partial
There were numerous warnings for landing gear control and brake systems
Autothrust and autoland were inoperative
Error messages for engine anti-ice and air data sensor were displayed
Multiple fuel systems errors including fuel jettison fault and centre of gravity messages were displayed
No 1 engine generator was disconnected
Left wing pneumatic system was leaking
Avionics system overheat warning was displayed

S/O Mark Johnson, went to the cabin and saw that the fin camera display showed a significant fuel leak from the left wing. As the fuel dump and transfer systems were unserviceable, the aircraft was moving towards both longitudinal and lateral out of balance. The Captain decided to land 50 tonnes overweight while the aircraft was still within the C/G limits. After computing several options with different configurations, a landing calculation was found that would permit a landing on runway 20C with a 100m margin.

F/O Mathew Hicks handled an unprecedented array of failures in an aircraft with great systems complexity.
S/O Mark Johnson established voice communications with Qantas engineers in Sydney through a mobile phone after failure of the aircraft’s satellite voice link.
Training Captain David Evans and Captain Harry Wubben, who was undergoing training as a Training Captain, made valuable contributions including visual inspections from the aircraft cabin, communication with cabin crew and passengers and assisting with calculation of overweight landing performance with the damage to multiple systems.

After controllability checks, the Captain commenced a 20nm final approach to runway 20C with the No 4 engine set to the same thrust as the No 1 engine while using only the No 3 engine for thrust control. After the autopilot disconnected twice, the Captain flew the approach manually from 1,000 feet. After touchdown, full reverse thrust was applied to No 3 engine, however, maximum braking could not be applied until the nose wheel had touched the ground. The landing run was completed about 150m from the end of the runway.

After completing shut down checks, the crew were informed by the fire crew that the No 1 engine was still running, even though there was no instrument indication of the engine running. Despite numerous efforts, it proved impossible to shut down the engine by normal means. The fire services were then requested to drown the engine. All the passengers were then disembarked without injury.

For their safe handling of an unprecedented set of failures, sound decision making in an extremely complex emergency and superb handling of an aircraft in extreme circumstances, saving the lives of all on board, the crew of Flt QF032 are awarded the Hugh Gordon-Burge Memorial Award.


The Award was presented by the Master of the Guild, Captain O W 'Wally' Epton, and the guest of honour, Maj. Gen. David J. Scott, Director Operations, Strategic Deterrence and Nuclear Integration, HQ USAF Europe
at the Guild's annual Trophies & Awards Banquet held at London's Guildhall last Thursday evening.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Guildhall.jpg


GAPAN - The Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators (http://www.gapan.org)

Australia Region (http://www.gapan.org/australia/), Hong Kong Region (http://www.gapan.org/hong-kong/), New Zealand Region (http://www.gapan.org/new-zealand/), North America Region (http://www.gapan.org/north-america/)


Some other awards:

The Prince Philip Helicopter Rescue Award (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/467596-2010-11-prince-philip-helicopter-rescue-award.html)

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/467630-uscg-pilot-honoured.html


The citations are worth reading. :ok:

[Tankengine]

Good on them!:ok:

Pity they have been grounded by their management!:(

A small Irish village is missing an idiot!:*

[Bobbsy]

Assuming they flew as pax to London via Qantas, they're also probably stuck in the UK.

[CDRW]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

[1a sound asleep]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

Yes they were. But the huge experience base in the cockpit definitely helped save the A380 which was literally a flying wreck.....

[Fubaar]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do?? CDRW, with the multiple problems they had to deal with, what you've said is on a par with saying "Isn't Hussein Bolt just a jogger?" or "Wasn't Edmund Hillary just a glorified rock climber?".

Some readers might be forgiven for thinking you're indulging in that age-old and hugely ingrained Australian trait of "tall poppy syndrome".

Credit where credit's due - in this particular case, this paricular crew brought the badly degraded aircraft back in one piece where many of their colleagues, even those in Qantas, quite possibly would not have.

[fireflybob]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

just?? - surely one of the most crass comments I have seen on Pprune for many a day - maybe this incident shows that these pilots were underpaid - I know if I had been sitting down the back their worth would be priceless.

[crewmeal]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

I'm sure most of us are paid to do the job we're paid to do. It's how we go about it that counts. Personally I think those involved did an excellent job and showed true airmanship. They deserved to be honoured in this way.

where many of their colleagues, even those in Qantas, quite possibly would not have.

I certainly don't agree with that comment. All QF pilots are trained to the highest standards. I'm sure any pilot in that situation would have handled it in the true professional way that this crew did.

[Flying Lawyer]

CDRWSurely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

Surely, and particularly in these days when professional pilots are too often regarded as just 'numbers', it's right that the profession should acknowledge excellence??

They crew did their job in exceptionally challenging circumstances and succeeded in bringing the stricken aircraft back without loss of life.
The Award is to 'a member or members of a crew whose outstanding behaviour and action contributed to the saving of their aircraft or passengers.'
Judging by the enthusiastic and sustained applause when the crew collected their Award, the 600+ people present (mainly professional pilots - commercial and military) clearly thought they fully deserved it.


Tudor Owen
Warden, Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (http://www.gapan.org)

[Coireall]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??CRDW, You surely cannot be an aviator and make such a crass statement!
Although the citation acknowledges the challenges they faced and successfully dealt with, I suggest you read Captain David Evans' cool but very detailed description of HOW these guys dealt with this extremely hazardous and unprecedented situation. It is here:
Roger-Wilco | Royal Aeronautical Society interview with Captain David Evans of Qantas (http://www.roger-wilco.net/royal-aeronautical-society-interview-with-captain-david-evans-of-qantas/)

I am in awe of the way they calmly and successfully did their jobs that day. I admire their prowess and I expect this will go down in aviation history as an example of brilliant airmanship by these three primary crew who were ably assisted by the two training captains who were observing them. It will be on a par with the Sioux City DC10, Hudson River A320 but because nobody got any injury it fell from the headines very quickly.
:DFrom me it's just ...RESPECT RESPECT RESPECT. Well done guys. You earned a full lifetime worth of pay that day. :D

[Andu]

crewmeal, you're being a bit precious. Face it - that crew did a really exceptional job, and I can assure you that quite a few flying the A380 (certainly in my old airline, one of the largest A380 operators) - and even some (gasp! heart be still!) Qantas pilots - would not have done as good a job. As an ex-sim. instructor who has seen many crews struggle, even flounder attempting far less demanding emergencies than that crew had to handle in the real world, I believe you're being unrealistic to say otherwise.

May I join others in saying "well done" to all members of that crew and for being recognised by their peers for doing a truly exceptional job in a situation I'm very glad I was never called upon to deal with in my 42 years of professional flying.

[d71146]

My personal view is that this is a richly deserved award to the Flight Crew on that day,a day when things could have had a very different outcome.

[Coireall]

You are joking? Where I am, this story just seemed to run and run for six months. It is true that those of us interested in aviation have been watching and reading about this incident since it happened. Indeed that is why we are commenting right now!
I was referring to the general "Joe Public" man or woman in the street. Just try asking any non aviation people how much they know of the near disaster on a Qantas A380 last November, and then ask them about the Hudson River landing. Where I live, they all seem very aware of one but not of the other, that's all I was saying.
:DThe important point is my respect for the excellence of these guys.:D

[Kiltrash]

Well done to QF032, there was a large element of training and perception but there will also be a huge slice of luck

Other end of the stick would be AF447 where with the same training, perception failed and they did not have the luck

Bring back a wounded bird and the crew deserve all the accolades going

As SLF I want these guys doing the job:D

[RAT 5]

"Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??"

Surely this is an excellent opportunity for the profession to generate some wonderful PR on behalf of recruiting, training, paying the good guys what they are really worth; not decrying that this was just a normal day at the office, and what all pax should expect as the norm? Indeed it should be the norm, but sadly, as the profession is on a slippery slope it soon won't be. I can imagine that this could easily have ended up a smoking hole on another day in another place. What I want to see is that this result, in any a/c, is 99% of what happens anywhere, anytime. Sadly I'll have to dream on.

[4Greens]

Kiltrash, there was no luck it was professionalism that carried the day.

[flying lid]

CDRW - Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

One day YOU may be on an aircraft when the engine goes bang, etc. You will then pray for the profesionalism & skills of the guys (and gals) up front. I know I would. 999 times out of 1000 your quote is correct. Its the 0.1 % of flights (or even less % - I just guessed this figure) when these folks earn their keep, not just for that day either, at £100 million plus per aircraft & around £1 million / person on board, damn sight more than a lifetimes accumulated salary of ALL the cockpit crew. (again approx £ - perhaps someone knows the figures).

Well done to these guys. 100% Pro's.

BTW how is the "old" bird, has her wing healed yet in Singapore ?.

Lid

[Bro was an ATC]

Just out of interest I was trying to track down the history of this award and who was Hugh Gordon-Burge? I've hunted the Interweb and found very little about him.

[Basil]

This fine example of outstanding airmanship together with two others here. (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/467733-tales-outstanding-skill-courage-devotion-duty-warning-aviation-content.html)

[fotoguzzi]

This is a terse notice, but provides some information:

QUOTE
H. K. Gordon-Burge -- We record with regret the death on February 3 [1974] of Hugh Gordon-Burge. Air Safety Adviser to the European Division of British Airways and twice chairman of the United Kingdom Air safety Committee. Mr Gordon-Burge was a senior captain with Aer Lingus from 1946-55, after which he joined the Accident Investigation Branch of what is now the Department of Trade and Industry. he joined British European Airways in 1965.
ENDQUOTE

Source: air france | concorde | 1974 | 0289 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1974/1974%20-%200289.html)

I would provide a citation, but having troubles navigating the interface.

[Heliport]

Before joining Aer Lingus in 1946, Gordon-Burge was an RAF Coastal Command pilot in WW2.


Basil

The two citations in your link are well worth reading.
Truly outstanding courage and devotion to duty. :ok:

[yssy.ymel]

Sorry CDRW, obvious troll is obvious.:ugh:

[Vasco dePilot]

flying lid
You asked: BTW how is the "old" bird, has her wing healed yet in Singapore ?.The repairs are well under way as stated here: A380 (http://australianaviation.com.au/2011/10/%e2%80%98nancy%e2%80%99-to-return-to-the-air-in-2012/)

[PeetD]

As a PAX, if I had a choice, I'd rather an alternate airframe! (but with the same crew :D ).

[Evanelpus]

Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

That's a little ingracious if you ask me. Yes, they are trained for emergencies but they did show great skill in getting the big bird onto the deck without serious injuries and I think they should get their pat on the back for doing it.

[A-3TWENTY]

CDRW - Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??

You are not a pilot , aren`t you? If not I barely can understand you , but if you are what I can say is that you are stupid and owner of a huge envy.

Any emergency well dealt with which were out of what someone has been trained for is a great overcome lead by great pilots.

I`m happy that their task had been recognized .

[flying lid]

Hugh Gordon-Burge Memorial Award by the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators

Probable winners this year are a Polish air crew from LOT !! (Well done today)

[glad rag]

Very well deserved recognition of airmanship and teamwork of the highest order.

The trolls would do well to stay their malicous comments.

[A320baby]

There is also a very interesting documentary on youtube

Special - Qantas QF32 - A380 Uncontained Engine Failure (1 of 4) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGiITFlaafI&feature=related)

[500N]

"CDRW - Surely they where just doing what they are paid ( rather handsomely) to do??"

I can't believe you posted that comment.

So what if they are well paid, if possible I prefer to fly where the people up the front have some experience and as has been proved a number of times recently (Sully plus 2 x Qantas), a bit of experience and coolness under pressure has helped.

That way, as a passenger I get to leave the aircraft the same way I got on it, via the terminal.

.:ugh:

[Rananim]

Qantas is known to value and respect airmanship in its pilots.Along with SWA,they remain a beacon of hope in an industry thats drowning in rote flying,automation-reliance and SOP-mania.

[rgsaero]

Please forgive me for adding my few penn'orth, professionals, as I am a 1000hr+ private pilot - albeit an old one!

But am I right in discerning here a similarity between the Australian pilots, the Poles who brought the LOT 767 to a textbook "forced" landing and others such as Sullenburger. Three excellent outcomes to emergencies and ALL were expert "handfliers" who had spent a great deal of time without automatics.

I know it relates to other threads but....

Just seeing a relationship....

rgsaero

[500N]

rgsaero

The other common aspect of all 3 was that they were all ex military pilots.
(By all 3 I mean Sully and the 2 Qantas incidents).

I wonder how much that has to do with being able to handle things under pressure and very high work load ?

.

[donnlass]

Good on them!

Pity they have been grounded by their management!

A small Irish village is missing an idiot!


Not as big an idiot as your village obviously.

[Gnadenburg]

rgsaero

The other common aspect of all 3 was that they were all ex military pilots.
(By all 3 I mean Sully and the 2 Qantas incidents).

I wonder how much that has to do with being able to handle things under pressure and very high work load ?


Absurd comments really and you mustn't be terribly well travelled professionally.

I've heard off the record that a civilian trained co-pilot was quite guiding in one of the incidents. And don't get me started on Eastern European ex-mil!

The military can provide superb pilots in a civilian world. But not always. Sadly, with the way training has gone, previously considered average ex-mil guy will stand out in some of the civilian outfits getting away with not investing in pilot training.

[PAXboy]

The photo by the OP that starts the thread shows that - two men are used to wearing bow ties and three men are NOT used to wearing bow ties. ;)

Reading the citation is breathtaking. Another reason for ALL that fly (or are flown) to be grateful to this crew is that, by getting back in one piece it was possible to quickly discover what went wrong and thus keep everyone else safe. If the a/c had pranged and one (or more) of the FC lost - it might have taken years to discover why.

(It is apparent that 'CDRW' is a Troll.)

[r75]

Having spent my life in aviation keeping heavies serviceable ,all I can say after reading through that report from the RAS interview is that the crew demand the utmost respect for handling the situation the way they did.By there own admission,they could not simulate it on the ground,to me that shows what tremendous airmanship prevailed on the flight deck that day.Agreed,they had perhaps more than a normal flight crew contingent but that does nothing to alter the fact of how they coped.Apart from engine failures,an enormous amount of ECAM messages,alternate law in abundance,hydraulic fluid loss, fuel loss,spurious indications,an aircraft in serious danger of going out of trim, busbar loss and to cap it all,an APU whose generators would not come on-line ....you could not script such a spectacular sequence of failures.They all deserve all the credit there is. No doubt this one will be spoken about for years to come.

[MTBUR]

An instructor once told me how pilots are, in fact, overpaid - live mostly good lives, do what they love, and it all comes relatively easy. But they get one flight where what they do makes their job perks pay off. These boys earned their crust for their entire career that day!

[PAXboy]

I have just read the citations for the two other awards given that night. There are no words to describe the remarkable strength, physical and mental, shown by those involved. Read them, in addition to the subject of this thread, and be uplifted that our species can do these things - and at a moment's notice.

[nicholas.nickle]

Good on these QF pilots. Bravo, good job and many happy landings.

Having said that, let me say that there are many many other unsung heroes/heroines who saved aircrafts from harm with their pro-active actions pre - empting any big drama.

I remembered in another life as a training captain in SEAsia, I was conducting line training for a 744 F/O newly upgraded to trainee captain on the B734. We had a great, uneventful flight to BKK. However departing from BKK as we were cleared for immediate takeoff, with yours truly running through the final before takeoff checks, the trainee captain spooled up the engines once the checklist was comleted. I looked into the skies ahead as we began to roll down the long clear runway feeling really wonderful that we were taking off into the clear skies on the way home for a well earned rest. Suddenly the trainee called " abort " and went through the whole jing bang rejected take off thingy. I must said that I was taken by surprise; " what the hell??? " before I recovered, announced to BKK tower that we were rejecting. As I looked in askance at my trainee on the left, I saw a huge dense flock of birds ( later learnt that they were starlings ) from the left moving across the top of the golf course lying between the 2 runways. No need for any questions; we requested for the first exit on the right, alerted ATC ( who were none the wiser ). To cut a long story short, I could not have scanned the skies to the left that well but as we hit TOGA, the trainee had spied the flock of birds making the way across towards our runway. It was an excellent call for the trainee to reject the take off.

As we went through our after landing checks, PAs and further clearances we heard a landing aircraft on the left adjacent runway reporting multiple bird strikes! Holy smoke, we could have been the predecesor of USAir 1549 taking a drink in the Chao Phraya! Unfortunately my trainee captain pre-empted any chance of us making the headlines or a stab at notoriety! Thank heavens for that!

[Willy Miller]

Just to clarify, we are not paid for what we DO do, but what we might, one day, have to do. I do not think any of those on board would consider the crew (cockpit or cabin) over paid. Well done to all, in the air and on the ground that day who brought about a successful return :D

[Jetney]

As we went through our after landing checks, PAs and further clearances we heard a landing aircraft on the left adjacent runway reporting multiple bird strikes! Holy smoke, we could have been the predecesor of USAir 1549 taking a drink in the Chao Phraya! Unfortunately my trainee captain pre-empted any chance of us making the headlines or a stab at notoriety! Thank heavens for that!

You were really lucky your trainee was absolutely on the ball. Had you lost both engines and ended up in the Chao Phraya, I doubt there would have been ferries with all the safety equipment and safety minded crew coming over for rescue. I am sure there wouldn't be any video cameras capturing your " moment " of taking a drink.

[billabongbill]

Just to clarify, we are not paid for what we DO do, but what we might, one day, have to do. I do not think any of those on board would consider the crew (cockpit or cabin) over paid

The above cooment is mighty self-injurious. With the miserly pay that some of us get, we are not paid enough for what we routinely do! Anything out of the ordinary require a MAJOR reward.

[golfyankeesierra]

we are not paid enough for what we routinely do
Sorry but I don't agree. What we routinely do is a skill that with a big wallet and some time my granny can learn.
But what these pilots did was something exceptional, something that can hardly be learned, but something that comes from experience.
And the experience, that is what we (some of us) are paid the big bucks for.

I don't feel for that "Hero" -tag that f.i. capt Sullenberger and others have been given, because they were doing their job.
But I do have great admiration for Sully and these aussies and I can only learn from them and hope that in a similar situation I perform likewise.

That's why I think these awards are important, they deserve respect from their fellow pilots.

[Tipsy Barossa]

What we routinely do is a skill that with a big wallet and some time my granny can learn

GYS, small wonder the T & Cs are deteriorating:{:ugh:

Likewise, my granny can cut and stitch......she can certainly learn to be a surgeon, or even do surgery cookbook style. I too, can do Alan Joyce's job with more finesse....we can go on and on, shafting ourselves nice and propr with this line of thinking.

[chase888]

Cannot agree more with all the plaudits for these guys.
Just wonder if there has been any analysis of whether the situation could have been saved if just a standard flight crew of just two had been on the flight deck.
Would they have been overwhelmed, or was it very good allocation of available resources?

[shortfinals]

Pilots get tested properly when stuff happens for which they have not been specifically trained and for which there are no checklists. These guys passed all the tests, and as you can see from this, they didn't stop when the pax had been disembarked either...

Handling The Big Jet: the human story of QF32 - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2011/10/handling-the-big-jet.html)

[jackharr]

"....saw a huge dense flock of birds...."

But, I got real stick from ATC at Amsterdam some 15 years ago for refusing to begin the take off roll when I saw a large flock of geese from right to left just where we would have been lifting off.

"Take off immediately or you will lose your slot". Needless to say, I didn't take off and didn't lose my slot.

A photo I took in northwest Norfolk earlier this week shows a typical flock of Pinkfooted Geese; I posted it on a Bird Forum. You'd want to miss a flock like this:

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/data/527/11-11-28-084-Pinkfeet.jpg

[shortfinals]

"What we routinely do is a skill that with a big wallet and some time my granny can learn."

Like many others in this thread I disagree radically.

As a former QFI in the RAF I know that everyone who arrived to be trained had gone through exhaustive selection procedures and aptitude tests - which had a very, very high failure rate - and I also know that some of them still struggled on the course. It's no different in the airlines, even where careful selection has taken place.

Among those who have self-selected for training, if they get a job in the first place some of them will struggle to keep a job with any respectable outfit. But even self-selecters tend do do their own selection: they drop out of training when they realise they aren't good enough.

I don't know about your super-granny, but I think mine and most others could make it to first solo in the circuit and then they'd fail on the navexes, but even if they got a PPL that would be about it. Flying safely isn't something everybody can do, and flying really well, with deep reserves, which a professional airline pilot should, is a sophisticated skill that needs a big knowledge base to back it up. And while a high level education helps, I have chopped graduate entry pilots into the RAF along with those straight out of school. It's about much more than just academic ability.

[woodyspooney]

Nicholas.Nickle wrote :

Having said that, let me say that there are many many other unsung heroes/heroines who saved aircrafts from harm with their pro-active actions pre - empting any big drama.


On the same vein, when I was flying for a major Pacific Rim carrier some years back, a colleague pre - empted a more serious fuel leak problem when he countermanded the explicit instructions from company maintenance control and despatcher. He had a engine fuel leak; however the leak rate was moderate and coupled with the well known tendency of the B777 FQI to vary quite a lot inflight made trouble shooting extremely difficult. He could not definitively ascertained that it was an engine fuel leak ( lack of visual cues, and other engine / fuel parameters ) but he certainly nailed it as a fuel leak. However the wonder boys at maintenance were analysing real time data from data link and concluded that there was no leak! They ordered him to continue or if he wanted to divert, he had to come back to them at main base. He told them to stuff it and diverted to ANC whereby an real moderately atomizing engine fuel leak was discovered! Had he diverted as suggested to some stormy lightning stricken airports ( as their enroute airports were that particular day ), they could have ended up as a giant fireball! Instead gratitude from the company, they tried to cover up the inadequacies of the maintenace and despatch departments...in so doing they employed many tactics to cut him down to size. I was utterly disgusted with the attitude of the company management pilots that I refused to renew my contract after my fifth year and plied my skills elsewhere.

[shortfinals]

Woody

Your story paints a pretty much universal picture of how pilots behave toward each other, unfortunately.

Life tells us that we are, on average, too individualistic and self-serving for our collective good, though that very individualism can be essential in saving a tricky airborne situation.

As a collective, I don't like pilots much. They think they are naturally loyal to their fellow pilots, but they'll slag them off and dump them in the doodah at the drop of a hat. Most are are too individualistic to be loyal when it comes to the collective crunch.

But maybe this aimless little musing of mine could be directed at any bunch of professionals whatever they do for a living.

[Lessnessman]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=HK#/watch?v=6_lLJjb1BBQ)

[OKhalsa]

nicholas.nickle wrote : I remembered in another life as a training captain in SEAsia, I was conducting line training for a 744 F/O newly upgraded to trainee captain on the B734. We had a great, uneventful flight to BKK. However departing from BKK as we were cleared for immediate takeoff, with yours truly running through the final before takeoff checks, the trainee captain spooled up the engines once the checklist was comleted. I looked into the skies ahead as we began to roll down the long clear runway feeling really wonderful that we were taking off into the clear skies on the way home for a well earned rest. Suddenly the trainee called " abort " and went through the whole jing bang rejected take off thingy. I must said that I was taken by surprise; " what the hell??? " before I recovered, announced to BKK tower that we were rejecting. As I looked in askance at my trainee on the left, I saw a huge dense flock of birds ( later learnt that they were starlings ) from the left moving across the top of the golf course lying between the 2 runways. No need for any questions; we requested for the first exit on the right, alerted ATC ( who were none the wiser ). To cut a long story short, I could not have scanned the skies to the left that well but as we hit TOGA, the trainee had spied the flock of birds making the way across towards our runway. It was an excellent call for the trainee to reject the take off.



nicholas, you are a perfect gentleman!

Thank you very much for giving your trainee captain the credit. I know a lot of blokes would have appropriated the " feat " for themselves.:D

Woody, you did us proud with your principled stand and I am sure your colleague appreciated your support and encouragement.:D

[b263354]

but lets get honest here...

(and I know A LOT of flyboys are going te get ticked of by this) lets look at the facts present on the flightdeck..

How many aviators were present? captain, training captain, training captain in training, a flight officer etc? If they couldn't have held it together with this much brain power and hands/ears/eyes on deck well shuck's, really time to eliminate all pilots, give raises to the cabin crews and go center in command from gate to gate.

A good job, and some coool heads up there (I think, can't here the voice recorder). But another honest thing here; the real "iron knuckles" pilots that considered flying as hard work and not as a hobby are by now going for full retirement, leaving the gross of pilots/my collegues left who are in it for the money and the uniform!

It's a catch 22, I knows. A pilot doesn't earn anything anymore unless he has to take command of an abnormal situation. But as the autopilot can handle with more consistency and often much better the normal flight procedures, pilots are at a disadvantage here already with the management breathing in their neck with acars reports and what have you not. When you train you cost money, and then putting extra training in for the "special occasions" (AF447!) airliners just as rather skip those and put them on the flight deck saving simulator time, hotels,replacement flight crews, training captains, pocket money, meals etc. Aircraft are designd these days to fly so "sharply" saving gas, wear and tear etc. that a normal pilot can hardly keep up anymore and he needs a physics degree with IT on top of that to keep up, let's just round it off to the titel of an aeronautical engineer? But what have we/I besides me more often then not: a young man(woman) barely finished high school who's mom or dad upfronted the money because he/she always wanted to fly and they see/saw it as a good return investment. And the uniform does look sharp doesn't it?

I think we need to take a good look at where aviation is going, and most importantly the knowledge, wisdom and real flying skills we are about to loose with the last generation of real pilots that are going for retirement right now! When I don't fly I just don't feel comfortable with what I see going upfront, both of them sometimes not older then 30, and the performances I am then subjected to in "flight"


And at last, spare me the details of their dinner ball and smug faces, this isn't present at any other "mishap" that happens when something goes wrong in aviation land, and personely if they consider this a feat with all surrounding circumstances present it is a sorry day for all of us because they need all this just to bring things these days to a good ending?!

:ok:

[framer]

How many aviators were present? captain, training captain, training captain in training, a flight officer etc? If they couldn't have held it together with this much brain power and hands/ears/eyes on deck well shuck's, really time to eliminate all pilots, give raises to the cabin crews and go center in command from gate to gate.


True, there was a lot of combined experience there. That was advantageous but.....only because they managed the resources well, and communicated well. I can easily imagine that many people involved being a hinderance if they weren't really well coordinated,knowing when to speak, when to listen, whats important whats not etc etc. Not every group of pilots/cabin crew would get a good result out of that scenario communications-wise. Well done I say.

[4Greens]

Forget all the posts.

After all the analysis- it was an extremely difficult problem handled brilliantly by a well trained crew

[Gretchenfrage]

Not saying they didn't handle it well!

But reflect on this:

- The FO was working on ECAM
- The supernumerary instructor was working in the AOMs and basically directing operations, he was assisted by the second supernumerary captain handling satcom.
- The supernumerary FO was inspecting the wing through the cabin
and ...
- The designated captain and PIC was handling the stick, and basically only that, as the AP said goodbye and the aircraft was difficult to handle

Is that a normal airline cockpit environment?
Is that a normal work and command distribution?
Is a complex modern airliner with a complex abnormal situation only able to be handled with so many cockpit occupants?

Well done, but honors??


Food for thought

[mm43]

...spare me the details of their dinner ball and smug faces...The episode that brought them to our attention has nothing to do with the number of pilots on the FD at the time of the incident, but the controlled and considered manner in which they all dealt with the issues as they arose.

Given, a normal flight would have been down by two, but as luck would have it the day was saved by the combined experience of all. So lets not denigrate those involved, they all contributed, and I'm sure the pax are highly appreciative of that small fact.

[Gretchenfrage]

Nobody is denigrating the involved.

What somewhat bothers me is that the laudatio covers in smoke the fact that had there been only two, the incident might have turned bad.

I simply miss the question raised, if this aircraft system got too complicated to be handled by the regular two man cockpit.

[4Greens]

Could be. It is a concern that you could have such a complex emergency faced by a two person crew.

[Molokai]

The QF A380 crew in this incident deserved the awards for a fine job done; at least they did nothing to aggravate the incident unlike an Air Transat A330 pilots who got the Air Pilot's Guild award after stuffing up a simple engine fuel leak problem ending up with a dead stick landing at Lajes. Not too long ago, some EK spin doctors almost make heroes out of the crew who took off grossly under powered in MEL, almost crippling the A340 and then landing unscathed with a partly damaged plane.

[framer]

Not too long ago, some EK spin doctors almost make heroes out of the crew who took off grossly under powered in MEL,

Really? Where do I find a copy of that? I thought the crew 'resigned´promptly after the incident. Why would EK then talk them up?

[cattleclass waif]

I have had this A380 near disaster on my mind ever since it happened and to me there has always been a dulling of the sheen on the heroic crew that saved the day.

I clearly remember a great PR exercise involving RR and it's trumpeting announcement that it had successfully detonated charges in a (at the time) new A380 jet engine at full power, to prove that its nacelle would contain all the debris of such an exploding jet turbine.

Since then, we have witnessed a catastrophic failure of a nacelle follow through in the real world and where is the outcry from an industry so proud of its safety records?

Please don't for a minute think I'm trying to belittle the heroic crew, for you would be way off the mark. Their names should (if anything) be the very start of an Australian aviators' hall of fame.

[Harry Ainako]

Really? Where do I find a copy of that? I thought the crew 'resigned´promptly after the incident. Why would EK then talk them up?

Me thinks he was referring to some friends or colleagues of the EK crew who tried to put a positive spin with some posts after the incident. I had seen some of those but I believe they were removed after some time. Smart eh?

[iceman50]

cattleclass waif

I standby to be corrected however, I am sure that the test is of a FAN blade detaching NOT a TURBINE DISC breaking up. You are comparing completely different kinds of failure and all the manufacturers only test for FAN blade release damage / containment not turbine disc failure.

So that is the reason there is no outcry.

[cattleclass waif]

... now that my non-airman status has been embarrassingly exposed and my cattleclass waif status is worse than useless, are there any seats available in the wheel well class?

[AR1]

Uncontained engine failure doesn't even begin to cover it does it? That with so many seniors on hand the messages were prioritised, the plane was flown and correct decisions made. No time for Ego's just a time for teamwork.
Fantastic. :D

[Hardbutt]

I see the aircraft with all four engines attached parked at SIN Changi. After 15 months looks like shes going home. :D

[Spanner Turner]

After 15 months looks like shes going home.

Looks can be deceiving ! :{

[Mariner]

Saw her today at Changi, parked at the east services apron. Awaiting parts, maybe?

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz268/erikschumacher/photo.jpg

She's not quite ready to fly, many parts still missing. Engine 2 was wrapped in plastic, because most of the cowling wasn't there. Patches everywhere. New mid-span slats.

It’ll be a while, I would say.

But back on subject, what an outstanding piece of airmanship that was. :D
Shows what we can do, and makes you feel proud to be a pilot.

And Airbus ought to give 'm a medal, too. ;)

[quiquevitocar]

Video Interview With Capt. Richard De Crespigny Part 1


J.A. Donoghue, editor-in-chief of AeroSafety World interviews Capt. Richard de Crespigny, captain of Qantas Flight 32 on November 4, 2010, an Airbus A380 that suffered a massive engine failure. Thanks to the actions of de Crespigny and his crew the damage did not precipitate a catastrophic accident, and 469 people returned safely to the ground at Singapore. Part 1 of 2.

Video Interview With Capt. Richard De Crespigny Part 1 | Flight Safety Foundation (http://flightsafety.org/media-center/fsf-news/video-interview-with-richard-de-crespigny-part-1)

Video Interview With Capt. Richard de Crespigny Part 2 | Flight Safety Foundation (http://flightsafety.org/media-center/fsf-news/video-interview-with-richard-de-crespigny-part-2)

[Nervous SLF]

Mariner, please excuse a 'civvy" posting on here but yesterday I was talking to a couple of Australians who know a Qantas mtce engineer in Australia. He has told them that the latest that he had heard was that she will never fly again.

Agree 100% about the crew.

[11Fan]

He has told them that the latest that he had heard was that she will never fly again.

He should have made them a bet.

Qantas makes is a point not to lose airframes, and this is not about to be the first.

[500N]

Interview on the Australian 60 minutes last night, mainly with the Captain
but also the others that were on the flight deck.

It was very interesting and for me, showed some more close up pictures / film of the holes in the aircraft.

I liked his description that it looked like the wing (and body) had been cluster bombed. I didn't realise how many pieces hit the fuselage.

[allrounder99]

It will be on a par with the Sioux City DC10, Hudson River A320

Whoa, big call. However, awesome job chaps.

[sabenaboy]

It will be on a par with the Sioux City DC10, Hudson River A320

Let's not forget the crew of the 2003 Baghdad DHL attempted shootdown incident. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Baghdad_DHL_attempted_shootdown_incident)

[601]

I have nothing but admiration for the crew in getting the aircraft back on the ground.

However, with the questions being asked at the Qld flood inquiry in relation to operators (pilots?) following Operations Manuals to the inth degree, will pilots in future have any latitude in not completing checklists for all the items that appear as faults on an electronic checklist (or however presented), even though completing all checklists may result in the loss of the aircraft due to time/fuel/CofG constraints.

[LeadSled]

601,
At least, in Australia, we have a NSW Supreme Court (sitting as an Appeal Court) finding that the PIC can take whatever action he or she deems necessary, in an emergency, including overriding the SOPs, Operations manuals in general, and published Emergency Procedures in particular.

The NSW Court of Appeal found that the Cth regulations defining the rights and duties of the PIC meant exactly what they say, and the authority of the PIC cannot be circumscribed. There was no appel to the High Court of Australia, so this stands as a very strong precedent.

The way some airline ops. management now behave, it is clear that they and (all too often) their tech, crews, simply do not understand the law.

Look for Markey, G v ??

Tootle pip!!

[4dogs]

Markey v Wansey & Ors [2002] NSWCA 221 (11 July 2002) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/cases/nsw/NSWCA/2002/221.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=Markey)

With the minimum of respect, I couldn't find anywhere a judicial statement that gives effect to what Leadsled reported. By my reading, none of the reported issues were even debated. := := :=

Maybe I'm reading the wrong decision... :hmm: :hmm:


Stay Alive,

[HappyJack260]

I read that appeal judgment as one that addresses the first trial judge's reasons for coming to the conclusions he did. The trial judge said that lowering the gear contributing to an increased rate of descent and therefore should not have been done, in contravention of the POH. The appeal judge said that the first judge had not considered whether the second stage of the engine failure - going from partial to full loss of power had actually happened, and therefore that it was unreasonable to attribute failure to make the field solely to the pilot for lowering the gear. The POH called for gear up in a crash landing; until the second stage of the power failure, there was not going to be a crash landing, just a normal landing, albeit with less than normal power available, and on a normal landing ground.

None of the appeal judgment addresses the pilot's discretion to ignore the POH; indeed, it's not apparent that he did ignore the POH.

[airsound]

According to Flight International, VH-OQA has been airborne already, and she'll be going home on 21 April.

I have to say, it seems to have been a praiseworthy down-route repair - for all concerned.

Qantas completes first test flight on QF32 aircraft (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/qantas-completes-first-test-flight-on-qf32-aircraft-370705/)

airsound