Easyjet captain PA and use of ldg lt

[I-WEBA]

Hi everybody, differently from many other airlines where captains say the most different things and at the most different times , in ezy i have seen that they say quite the same things at the same times. A PA just after boarding dealing with flight time and always reminding to pay attention on the safety demo. Is easyjet captain PA standard and written in the sop ?
I have seen that during climb they turn off ldg lt just after flap retraction , in descent they turn ldg lt on either at gear down or flap 2 and in mad i saw about fl100 , few mins after seat belts sign on. Does anybody know what their sop tell about it ? Just a curiosity

[Grasscarp]

On most flights of all airlines there is a PA after boarding about the flight time, weather at destination and please pay attention to the safety briefing etc. The way that an Ezyjet flight is flown will be in accordance with their training and checklists.

[DooblerChina]

Thomson: Nose gear light on for taxi, landing lights on when cleared for take off. Nose gear light off on gear up, landing lights off at 10000.

Landing lights on again at 10000 in decent, nose gear light on when cleared to land.

This is fairly common in most UK airlines, Easy i suspect is similar.

Our PAs are on boarding, top of climb, top of decent. The content is up to the person.

Hope that helps.

[easyflyer83]

There are standard PA's as in a PA book like the cabin crew have. However, like many cabin crew members, the PA's from the flight deck are usually ad-libbed which is perfectly fine aslong as relevant information is conveyed.

[Polorutz]

To clarify, I fly for EZY.

There are recommended PA's but you can add or remove things from them as long as you cover the safety elements, there is no SOP for PA's but training is the same across the board so you'll tend to hear roughly the same thing.

The landing lights turn off after flap retraction because they create drag and at high speeds there is no need to have them out during climbout.

The SOP for Landing lights on descent is only "can be turned on below 10000' but should be on by final approach". We do this in several ways, if we forget, lights come on after gear down by PNF action, if we don't forget we normally ask for them sometime before but close to localizer interception.

In some situations they come out to help us descend quicker, if you're left high, the lights add some drag that helps get down or slow down quicker. In Madrid or anywhere where airspace is busy and they do parallel approaches you turn them on earlier than normal to help be seen.

That's mostly it.

[Capetonian]

Our PAs are on ........ top of decent

Reading this is worrying, to say the least!

[Agaricus bisporus]

The landing lights turn off after flap retraction because they create drag and at high speeds there is no need to have them out during climbout.


Clearly "no need" while the rest of the world seem to think it is a good idea to be seen in the busier lower levels up to FL100, esp in London and other busy TMAs...And FL100 was always sop on the Boeing - whatever changed the industry-wide requirement for visibility. Safety over a miniscule amount of drag - no contest then.

In some situations they come out to help us descend quicker, if you're left high, the lights add some drag that helps get down or slow down quicker.

I'm speechless! Using landinglights to assist descent! Whatever next? Open the doors? Stick your clipboard out of the wndow? What happened to the mistake handle if you've misjudged your approach planning (or had it misjudged for you)? As if half a square foot of landing lights is going to make any difference at all? Bejasus!

Yet more examples of accountant-led dogma being unquestioningly swallowed at the expense of common sense and airmanship.

[Nightstop]

Actually the drag landing lights create is equivalent to 4 kgs fuel per trip. Multiply that by 204 (the number of aircraft in the EZY fleet) and again by 8 (sectors per day) and again by 364 and you get a fuel saving of 2.4 million kgs per year, not a miniscule amount I think. The lights are of no use in cloud or during daytime during climb or descent, so why waste fuel using them :ugh:.

[de facto]

Makes me think of volvo who first introduced lights on with ignition,stating than even in day light,people see you better when your lights are on.
Save your fuel another way...i d say.

[Nightstop]

But now we have TCAS, a far more useful aid than lights in busy TMA's.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, Nightstop is clear that instruments are far more use than any other means for identifyying threats so we can all abandon our lookout while we bask in the self-righteous knowledge of saving a propaganda supplied figure of 4Kg of fuel per trip.
The company's rung the bell so Capt Pavlov obediently says sod airmanship, it saves fuel.

QED

Personally, I'd prefer to think through the matter...and act accordingly.
Nav lights off too? Cabin light to dim?If not why not?

[de facto]

One seems quite sure it is not.....:eek:

[I-WEBA]

In italy an airline with A320 uses ldg lt at gear down and gear up. I think the old standard of FL100 is being replaced by many airlines.
Another question ezy's airbus are all enhanced ? Do you still do brake check as many airlines just to know if braking is ok or there is no need ?

[Capetonian]

Our PAs are on boarding, top of climb, top of decent.

Can someone explain what 'top of decent' means, or even top of descent!

[Alt Crz Green]

A320 landing lights to increase rate of descent? Are you on crack or is it stronger than that?

As for the fuel saving argument; lights on are about the best warning to birds. A few kilos more vs possibly avoiding a bird strike? Try some airmanship.

[Piltdown Man]

Let's be a little realistic shall we, I think the line

please pay attention to the safety briefing etc.

achieves absolutely nothing. Those who wish to listen will, those who don't won't. But really gets me is the dreadful way the safety briefs are given. I watched (suffered?), with a few other pax (a very small minority) an EasyJet safety brief a few days ago. Well, I can understand why people don't listen. It was a bit pretentious, humourless and in parts, inaccurately described. Features, equipment and procedures were all unnecessarily described as "safety features fitted to this aircraft". It's time airlines (mine included) ditched this crap and replaced it with something sensible.

PM

[NigelOnDraft]

Contrary to what some think, A318/9/20/21 Ldg Lights do cause drag, vibration and fuel burn - they retract when "Off".

When was the last mid-air avoided by Landing Lights? We are also exhorted to land with Flap 3 by Mgmt, to save a similar single digit Kgs of fuel/sector. Try adding 10K to your landing speed, higher nose attitude, low thrust on approach and see some genuine safety implications to save a few Kgs :=

You can criticise all you like, but as shown above, it is fairly common practice to turn them off fairly quickly / only put them on quite late. Not just by pilot choice, but airline / manufacturer SOP.

NoD

[Tall Boy]

Airbus landing lights add between 100 - 200 fpm to RoD in my experience (4000 hrs on type).

[I-WEBA]

Do you land flap3 only on long rwys or also medium lenght rwy flap3 is ok ?
After landing usually in some A320 airline ldg lt are put in off position and they are retracted only when taxi lights get off , in ezy too?

[FatFlyer]

A320/319 lights work well as additional speedbrakes, as Tallboy says, they help give you an extra rate of descent if needed, those of you who say this is rubbish might like to try it !
Ezy prefer flap 3 landings on runways which, after carrying out a landing distance calculation on the LPC, are suitable. This depends on factors such as wind, best exit, taxi distance, use of low autobrake etc. Obviously on a short or performance limited runway flap full would be used (unless required by QRH) when a bit of extra brake wear would not be a factor.
The drag lights create does use extra fuel which when operating 1000+ flights a day adds up. There are airmanship arguments for and against light use which is why Ezy does not insist on when they should be on or off but allows the crew to make a decision according to the conditions.

[Capetonian]

John R : I was confused with TOC. Humble pie was eaten last night.

On the subject of safety briefings, I flew a couple of weeks ago with Manx 2. The video safety briefings on screen were done by children, a very good attention grabbing idea and I think it worked! Certainly made a nice change.

[fa2fi]

Well I don't see what we can do to make the safety briefing less pretentious, less dull. We don't have video screens so we can't show something like the horrendous Manx2/Thomson Airways kids videos.

I do think safety videos are a lot more attention grabbing, espcially the Air New Zealand ones, Deltalina and Virgin. But equally there are shockingly bad ones such as the THY/Man Utd video which makes me cringe.

I believe the pre-recorded annoucement was better received by passengers than being read manually, improving passengers feeling of being "safe and secure".

I feel it's formal and does the trick. And as for talking and not listening, I make sure people pay attention, espcially when I'm doing the demo mid cabin. It only takes one person talking loudly and before you know it everyone is talking and laughing along and those sensible ones who are listening cannot hear.

I also feel it's technically accurate. So I can only assume you are referring to a safety brief that was maybe read manually?

I honestly don't see what we can do to make it better. The day they have us do a Cebu Pacific style safety demo will be the day I resign.

[Agaricus bisporus]

My impression with EJ is that their PAs are FAR too wordy - far too long and often patronising. The overall impression in the cabin is of being talked to death with PAs and that just makes people ignore them. If ever there was a case of less is more it is here.
And why do the flight crew have to tell pax about the weather on every PA? Surely once on the welcome aboard and at ToD is more than enough? Not much imagination goes into those, (and like the pax the FO's never listen to what the Capt said on the welcome aboard hence, I suspect, the duplication) but then there is no training whatsoever for pilot pas, just a rather poor and inimaginative guide in some obscure corner of a website somewhere. PAs are, imho, one of EJ's weakest points.

[fa2fi]

I must admit some PAs can be a bit long. Especially flight deck ones. Like when you're trying to serve passengers but the flight deck are describing every park bench you are going to fly over on the way to Destination X, first in English, then in French.

Get's very tedious. I do sometimes think "who cares, it's cloudy anyway, and we're still going to get there whether we know the route or not". But on the other hand it makes up for the lack of moving map which I know a lot of pax miss.

I like to use the pre-recorded ones as much as possible as the automated one is much more discreet and unobtrusive. I'd rather that at 6 am than someone shouting down the PA trying to sell me a cheese and ham melt! It's better for the flight deck too as they don't hear the pre-recorded standard PAs.

However, at my base we score very highly on the quality of PA's when we do customer service surveys and that includes both cabin and flight crew annoucements.

But, one PA you can't help but love is the automated funcard PA.:O

[I-WEBA]

Just to know. Do you prefer a captain's (or FO) pa about 1 min long in which he tells the name of the first officer, the name of the purser , the reminder of the safety demo, the departing rwy, the heading we will follow (north,south etc) flight time, weather along the route and finally cruising altitude. Or a quite short pa telling flight number, flight time, weather at destination and when he will do a pa again in flight for the route and time at destination ?

[Capot]

means the last section of the cruise before the descent is initiated

"the point at which the descent is initiated", even.

[The African Dude]

It could probably mean both, Capot, but does it really matter?

I've been taught that some people like lots of PA talk (as rightly pointed out above, to make up for the lack of a moving map), some people like none at all and quite a few people just like some soothing pilot babble to reassure them they aren't going to arrive 3 hours late in a different airport to that expected. But you have to work very, very hard to fill more than 2 minutes of chat. Is that so hard to bear for a business traveller on a mid-day flight when half the cabin is going on holiday?

I'm sure there is no "right" answer, but hopefully we find the right middle ground more often than not.

By contrast, RYR service from East Mids to Belfast managed so many different PAs in the 35 minutes it took to get across the Irish Sea, at such great volume, that even reading became impossible. Which, I guess, was probably the point!

[Mr Optimistic]

On one recent EZY flight teh Cpt stood at the front to explain a delay and again on exit. Thought it very sweet thing to do. Don't much care really about differences though I wouldn't be overly impressed by a safety video with children.

[siftydog]

Yes, the landing lights in the A320 can help a little with descent when you've been left high and close in. You don't want to put them out too fast though - quick way to strip the gearbox and they're costly units.

In the 737 at one stage we would have everything out at 10000 as SOP; it quickly changed when gearbox's were stripped regularly. Then it changed back again with increased bird strikes, then back again when fuel became expensive......you get the idea.

[DooblerChina]

This thread has yet again shown me why I shouldn't bother trying to help, a reasonable question has been turned into a debate about my spelling (sorry) A320 landing lights & the style of safety videos with (I suspect) mostly non pilots telling pilots they are idiots.

Waste of time.

Don't bother responding, I won't read it.

[Nicholas49]

I think the line "please pay attention to the safety briefing etc." achieves absolutely nothing. Those who wish to listen will, those who don't won't.

Piltdown Man: I beg to disagree. I think that a firm and persuasive message from the Commander to listen to the safety briefing can encourage some naughty passengers to listen. I've seen it happen with friends, especially when using clever ad-libbing.

As for the recorded easyJet safety demonstration, I thought it was pretty good, but I've only heard it once. It's calm, clear, audible and understandable (and my God is that a common shortcoming in safety PAs, as I've said here before). Whether it describes the safety points of the A320 aircraft accurately, I am not qualified to say.

My two pence worth on the flight deck PAs is that a lot of passengers do appreciate them. In fact, they and the safety briefing are the only ones I listen to properly. But you'll never please everyone - some people have no interest in the flight details, others (like me) find it the most interesting aspect of the entire experience.

What are problematic, though, are mumbling/inaudible/waffly PAs. They really don't give the right impression. A friend (and 'nervous flyer') once said to me that she really wished some pilots didn't pause before giving the destination, as if they just needed to check. If you speak quickly, it's possible to say:

Ladies and Gentlemen, good afternoon from the Flight Deck. My name is John Smith. I am the Captain. My colleague on the Flight Deck is Senior First Officer Alan Jones. Alan is the pilot flying for this sector, so he will fly you to London Stansted this afternoon.

Our flight time will be approximately one and half hours. We'll cruise at 38,000ft and our routing will take us out to Paris, then up to the Channel, over London and into Stansted most probably from the East.*

The cabin is supervised by Jeremy#, who is assisted by Katy and Holly. They will shortly run you through a safety demonstration for this Airbus A320. This briefing is for your benefit alone, so please pay them the courtesy of listening to it. It will only take a couple of minutes.

I hope you enjoy the flight. We'll update on our progress once we're in the cruise. Thanks for your attention.

...in less than a minute. What's the problem?

Nick

*Apologies for invented/implausible flight routings!
# Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[easyflyer83]

In my experience I get more attention paid to the demo when i read it. Theres is nothing wrong per sa with the pre-recorded one but I personally feel that my demo voice is more authoratative. Reading that, some here may think i'm being above my station but thats what is needed IMO. On a lively flight to TFS or PMI, you need to make sure it's loud and clear and the PRM doesn't always achieve that. And pre-recorded funcards/sales PA's just scream that the crew can't be arsed.

Some crew admittedly shouldn't be let near a PA and I cringe at PA's made by some of my colleagues. Ideally, PA's should be fairly short and snappy and made at the discretion of the crew. For example, a PA for the bar/food service shouldn't list every product in the brochure but one or two crew members do.

The number of PA's are sometimes necassary, sometimes not. Ultimately, we all, generally speaking, pay too little for our fares and this has to be made up through onboard sales. On my flights, the full lot will get read on a longer flight as they can be spaced out nicely but on shorter flights I make sure they are condensed and sometimes tagged onto another PA. Again, on a busy longer flight I might combine a 'final drinks' PA with something that is definitely practical......i.e landing cards.

[The Flying Cokeman]

Landing lights extended on the Airbus gives you 3% of drag, so there you go.

[I-WEBA]

I found excellent in ezy i think because of the delay in flight mad-mxp and olb-mxp. The english captain made his PA only in english explaining the cause of the delay then the purser translated in spanish and italian the captain pa. It had never happened in others airlines

[de facto]

Next time ATC requests to increase our rate of descent, ill just call for the landing lights:E

[The Flying Cokeman]

Probably don't have the same effect on your John Deere 737 ;)

[HPbleed]

Landing lights are an airmanship issue. As long as they're off by 10'000ft it's pilot discretion at easy when they're used. In London TMA I try to leave them on if there is a lot of traffic, as even if you can see other aircraft on TCAS, it's nice to be able to pick them out against the sky so you can see which way they're actually flying - TCAS isn't THAT accurate for tracks. For small airfields I put them on below 10'000ft so that GA traffic can see me, I would hope they also have their lights on so they can be seen.

I tend to turn them off in situations such as cloud, speeds above 250kts and low visibility (to help pick out runway lights and avoid the reflecting light blinding us.)

PA's for pilots at easy are up to the individual. Yes I'm boring and say the same stuff every time. Normally boarding, TOC and TOD if a long sector or just TOD for a short one.

[cyflyer]

There seem to be two parallel discussions on this thread, landing lights and PA's. A small comment on PA's. Beyond the standard announcement mentioned by Nicholas49 which is clear and precise and to the point, I think they vary as much as the individual characters of the person making the PA. I enjoy the captain informing passengers and saying "if you look out to right you will enjoy a view of such and such..." . I remember many years ago on a Cyprus Airways flight as we made our way over the Aegean Islands towards London, the Captain began pointing out the various islands as we flew over them and talking about the Greek mythology associated with each place in a lighthearted and humerous way. He had everyone enthralled. I thought it was a wonderful gesture and showed great character on his behalf.

[I-WEBA]

In easyjet usually who perform the PA? In Italy, generally, on ground always the captain, during flight the pilot flying.
On ground is only the captain the pilot flying or even first officer can taxy the aircraft?

[BerksFlyer]

As it is an extra option that costs money, most LCCs don't have tillers installed on the FO's side. Do not know specifically about easyJet but I would guess that this is the case with them.

[Paolo]

no, when the f/o is PF then he/she will taxy the a/c..... capt will ALWAYS park the a/c on stand.

[Denti]

@Berksflyer, i believe on the airbus the second tiller is actually not an option but standard equipment. On the 737 it is optional though and i know only of KLM that has ordered it.

[I-WEBA]

So the FO when PF vacates the runway. I believed captain to take control while decelerating on the runway

[fireflybob]

Actually the drag landing lights create is equivalent to 4 kgs fuel per trip. Multiply that by 204 (the number of aircraft in the EZY fleet) and again by 8 (sectors per day) and again by 364 and you get a fuel saving of 2.4 million kgs per year, not a miniscule amount I think. The lights are of no use in cloud or during daytime during climb or descent, so why waste fuel using them .

Surely anything which makes the a/c more conspicuous when below FL 100 is a bonus - there isn't much fuel saving in having a midair with (for example) a light aircraft?

[billybuds]

Yep exactly right, the F/O will taxi until they approach the parking stand at which point they will hand it over to the skipper who will park.

[Sky Wave]

So the FO when PF vacates the runway. I believed captain to take control while decelerating on the runway

This was the case on the 737's because they only had a tiller on the Captains side.

On the Airbus, when Pilot Flying the FO will control start up, push back, taxy out and every phase of the flight right up to the point when the aircraft is just about to park on stand. FO's don't park the aircraft because a lot of stand guidance systems are designed for left hand seat only.

Hope this helps.

[wheelie my boeing]

With all due respect to the non believers that landing lights create drag, in my company many (another UK airbus operator), many people lower the landing lights for drag. Our policy is when gear is up landing lights are off and when gear down landing lights on (although the manual does state if we want them on we can leave them on - no one does).
Lowering the landing lights on the airbus gives you an extra 100/200 feet per minute rate of descent, which when you are flying a continuous descent can help you just that little bit extra which prevents use of speedbrake.
But why not just use the speedbrake you say? On the A319 there is an anomally where when flap is out if the speedbrake is used then the autothrust will not fly the target speed. It flies approx 10 kts above the target speed, which is a pain in the butt when ATC at LHR require accurate flying... So lowering the landing lights DOES have benefits depending on type and conditions :hmm:

[HPbleed]

Or, reset the autothrust, 2 button presses too much for you?

[wheelie my boeing]

Nope, not for me, but I'm in the right hand seat and my company is against "resetting" the autothrust. Like it or not, I follow my company SOP's...

[RTO]

Curse you Brits for bringing us Volmet listening all day, inability to be cleared for an ILS approach, using 121,5 as a practise pan chatroom and now: Continuous dull and patronising PA's. This last bit is for some reason spreading like a plague.

Poor pax having to listen to blabber all day. A normal departure would go like this now: I'm capt. Morgan, welcome onboard please pay attention to the safety demo. A few seconds after a CA welcomes all on behalf of capt. Morgan and 15 minutes later the FO can announce that he is sitting together with capt. Morgan. Did we have enough introductions yet? How are you set for smalltalk? And NO, pax will not become more attentive just because you ask them to.

[Airbus_a321]

:D wouldn't have said it better

[I-WEBA]

For example an italian cpt, in a ej flight departing from italy and arriving in italy can perform his PA only in italian or he is suggested performing in english too?