Pac Blue operating Oz Domestic

[Defective]

Virgin are deploying NZ based Pacific Blue crew (both pilots and cabin crew) on Australian domestic sectors due to 'increased demand'. I know there is precedence for overseas based crew operating domestic sectors tacked on the end of international flights but will be interesting to see how DJ manages this one.

[500 stable]

What a load of crap

[Defective]

I can assure you that an email was sent out to DJ crew today stating this was their intention.

[fizzy piss]

Yes

confirmed for several weeks in Nov/Dec 1 x 737 - 800 .. Air Nz to cover some additional Trans Tasman flying to free up the aircraft. Temp capacity increase for Domestic flying due to extremely high loads.

[737NG_Girl]

Email said that this was intended only for a few weeks over November & December, and that the PB Cabin Crew would be paid a supplementary payment to ensure they received the same amount as Aussie based CC would receive if they were doing the flying. No mention made in regards to duty hour limitations (eg NZ or AU conditions).

Not sure how it looks for the Pilots - if there is similar "gap" payments being made?

[SilverSleuth]

Well I wonder what the Senior VB FOs will think of this???
What ever is said, it is still NZ Labour flying in OZ. A very ballsy move with an EBA negotiation just getting underway.
A real test now for the unions in how they will handle/react to this one...:rolleyes:

[MonsterC01]

Dam right SS,

I've already contacted my union about this and let them know I'm definitely not a fan of this option. And every Virgin Australia pilot should do the same.

Surely if we need the aircraft to increase capacity we are capable of crewing it ourselves. The company put out an e-mail 2 weeks ago asking pilots to nominate DO's, Blank days and Leave to help them increase capacity and maximize aircraft utilization.

Like many VA pilots I was happy to help out and nominated all of my DO's and Blank days for possible call outs. I've had 7 already this roster period and haven't received a single call. On top of this I'm only rostered for 52 hours this RP. And i'm sure i'm not the only one on these sort of hours.

Surely VA can crew this aircraft with VA pilots. smells to me like management trying to see just how far we're prepared to let them go with this kind of arrangement.:= What a great way to undo a lot of the good will that existed between JB and the pilot group.

Not a smart move during EBA negotiations. Many pilots will be looking to the unions now to make it hurt!

The Monster!:E

[Tee Emm]

I've already contacted my union about this and let them know I'm definitely not a fan of this option. And every Virgin Australia pilot should do the same.

Jesus wept! What childish attitude. Like a small child running to Mummy.:ugh:

[GAFA]

What about making use of the spare 190 that was put into the system and all the Ejet Captains sitting on reserve?

[MonsterC01]

There's always one Muppet that can't proffer or articulate their position on an issue so they'll come out with the usual nugget of stupidity like " run home to mummy", just in case we needed them to demonstrate just how dim they are.

Don't like my opinion Tee Emm, that's fine! great understanding comes from the collision of opposing ideas. It's the pillar on which democracy is based. But don't just come on here, try and slag someone off, and contribute nothing. It doesn't make you appear witty or clever, just incapable of defending your position.

I love my job. And i love my country. It affords me the rights and protections hard won by those that have gone before me to belong to a unified organization that provides me with an outlet to voice my concerns and gives that voice volume and an audience.

I see all the T&C i enjoy in my job as hard won and worthy of being protected. Regardless of weather or not the PB crew are being given some kind of gap payment, I'm sure they are not being afforded all of the protections I am guaranteed under my EBA.

If Virgin is willing to put all Pac Blue crew on the Virgin Australia EBA permanently, then i won't have a problem with this. But until that is the case I'm very much against foreign crew being used on domestic routes for 7 minutes, let alone 7 weeks..................... let alone indefinitely?

That's my position, and I'm willing to stand up and argue it. If you disagree with it then argue yours. I'm sorry but I don't equate doing that to........."running home to mummy", quite the opposite in fact.

The Monster!:E

[PPRuNeUser0182]

Australian Airlines (mk2), test the waters first!

[On Guard]

My understanding is Nz pilots topped up to VA conditions. I personally have no problem with this. It is extraordinary circumstances and i think goodwill towards the company is warranted.

Those with other attitudes, well I dont agree. VA have been v good in recent times and to throw your toys out when one thing upsets you is poor form.

If you remember PB gave us NZ flying at the start of GFC.

[DJ737]

Isn't there a Trans-Tasman agreement that permits New Zealand or Australian airlines to operate domestic services in either country?

[Yeh Yeh Yeh]

"If Virgin is willing to put all Pac Blue crew on the Virgin Australia EBA permanently, then i won't have a problem with this. But until that is the case I'm very much against foreign crew being used on domestic routes for 7 minutes, let alone 7 weeks..................... let alone indefinitely?
"

Love or leave it ...get used to it , this is the first part of the integration process being implemented, the integration manager has been appointed with a view to have all crew flying on the PB contract within the next 12 months.

[ad-astra]

One of the most interesting and what I think professional attributes of Virgin Blue/Virgin Australia/V Australia/Pacific Blue flight crew is that for the most part they avoid running to their computer to tell the world of their "Virgin" woes hoping that the doyens of PPrune will either agree with their opinion (first priority) or solve their problem (not likely)

Alas we have some who either are too lazy to sign up to our own pilots web sites or are too concerned with signing up under their real names on the respective union web sites to discuss the issues that concern them.

Perhaps talking to their peers they might become more informed - though I doubt it.

Jesus wept! What a childish attitude. Like a small child running to Mummy!

I could not have said it any better!

[Keith Nash]

Childish............................................Perhaps, but make no mistake this is how bad things start.

JB certainly has earned the benefit of the doubt, but that said, a good manager would have recognised the potential bush fire that this would create at any time, let alone in the midst of a bargaining period.

Keep in mind, this is exactly what QF are in industrial action over. It started for them when AIPA turned a blind eye to Jetstar. Now look where it has led.

What was needed here was genuine consultation with the unions prior, not just a couple of dismissive emails and one meeting. Followed by a quick and dirty agreement that clearly outlined boundaries etc. Everyone happy and trusting each other.

Good fences make good neighbors. Trusting management has no place in industrial relations. Sure, we should trust them to negotiate in good faith etc, but at the end of the day the serious stuff needs to be in writing. Once everyone has walked away from the table and all that is left is the words on paper, then great intent is useless, it is only the words that are enforceable.

The words around bridging the gap between the two markets are vague and would not mean much if tested. Does it include super for instance? Is there a defined and agreed end to it? There is nothing to say that the Company can't bring another aircraft, then another, then another. If we just accept this one, it will be harder next time. There is no guarantee that the QF mess will be cleaned up by christmas. The demand may get larger and larger, therefore the Company may want more and more PB crews.

The point is that I don't know what the future holds, and neither does any one else. So lets get some agreement between the pilots and the company as to what is reasonable in the short term, and what is required in the long term.

I agree that we should be supporting JB to the hilt, and in return they should be smart enough to engage with the unions and be prepared to put details in writing that are enforceable. Not that anyone expects to have to use that, but it would give comfort to the workforce in knowing that the company is prepared to commit to agreed positions. Trust is hard earned and easily lost. There is a tenuous trust at the moment between management and pilots. Things like this, if handled badly, could blow it apart.

[piston broke again]

I see no great issue with this as it's purely a temporary solution to increase the bottom line of the company and we all have a vested interest in the company doing this! Plus it leads to a bit more bargaining power when it comes EBA time. As long as they have 'exhausted' all our local crew so to speak, then I see no issue. What I do have an issue with is idiots who create a new profile name to post private company emails on this site.

[Mr.Buzzy]

What I do have an issue with is idiots who create a new profile name to post private company emails on this site.

Very true!

[Goat Whisperer]

If you are affected by this issue, or think you might be, then the (closed) forum for company pilots would be a more appropriate place to discuss it.

[chickoroll]

Jetstar is looking good now

[Lester Burnham]

Will Virgin Australia pilots be making the following PA:

Ladies and gentlemen, this is (insert rank and name), together with (all participating crew) may I briefly have your attention.
On behalf of all Virgin Australia pilots we would like to thank you for choosing to fly with Virgin Australia. We are proud of our profession and our airline and trust you will support us in keeping Virgin Australia pilots in Virgin Australia aircraft and ensuring our great iconic airline remains uniquely Australian.
For more information and to register your support, please make your next destination virginaustraliapilots.com.au (http://www.qantaspilots.com.au/)
Thank you.

The red ties probably aren't a great idea as everyone would mistake them for a flight attendant.

[drop bear ten]

I do not work for VB but observe:

1. QF is in industrial turmoil that will continue for many months. eg A look at the kangaroo route for today 28th shows over 200 empty seats on all sectors via Singapore.

2. VB has a golden opportunity with its rebranding and #1 above to make substantial inroads into:
a. market share (nick pax off QF)
b. improve yield management

by increasing frequency on key routes

3. JB has a reputation as a manager etc that those of Irish stock can but dream of. :{

How about ya let the bloke do his job (manage the f#$king company) while you do your job (fly the f#king pax safely from A to B).

The ability or otherwise of Virgin in the short term (at one of the busiest times of the year) to capture disgruntled QF customers will pay dividends for a LONG, LONG time and will invariably lead to MANY. MANY progression opportunities for all staff in the new year and beyond. Right seat to left seat, little plane to big plane etc

Run the figures on a 5 or 10 percent increase in market share. You will experience it if you allow a tactical strike for a longer term strategic advantage :ok:

Not too long ago VB could have laid off about 60-70 pilots. They chose to keep them on and bear the cost. Now is the time for the pilot group to return the favour and cut the man some slack.

[B772]

Many years ago Ansett ordered 6 x B737-500's for Ansett NZ as a replacement for the B737-100's. The intention was to operate the B737-500's domestically in NZ, Trans Tasman and some domestic services in Aust. This was to obtain sufficient round the clock utilisation to make the aircraft viable.

When it became obvious the (AFAP) pilots were not going to agree to the proposal the B737-500 order was cancelled and BAe146's were ordered instead with the a/c going into service in July 1989.

History can repeat itself.

[1a sound asleep]

How about the employees of a company support their employer for once. Recognise that this a Golden opportunity for the airlines to grown and expand, ultimately make more profits and secure your job.

[LeadSled]

DJ 737,

Fundamentally, quite correct, under the TTMR Treaty.

In addition, it would be quite possible to bring in other aircraft, foreign registered and crewed, and operate on the Virgin AOC, as QF did (Canadian, as I recall) during the Ansett end game..

It seems to me that, industrially, Virgin management have done everything right, in contrast to the QF approach.

Tootle pip!!

[DJ737]

Thanks for that Lead Sled, thats what I thought.

I wonder how long it will be before Jetconnect start domestic service in Australia?

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

While I don't have an opinion either way about JB. I think he's probably a good bloke, but he was in Qantas during the implementation of a lot of the businesses that are causing the mainline pilots so many sleepless nights now.

How about ya let the bloke do his job (manage the f#$king company) while you do your job (fly the f#king pax safely from A to B).

Be very careful guys. Thats what we did. And look at us now.

[Nose wheel first]

Clearly Virgin need another aircraft here. It makes sense to pick one out of another part of the "network" rather than lease from overseas, especially if it's a short term lease.

The question I have (I don't know the answer but maybe someone in the know will) is can the Aus crews legally fly a ZK registered aircraft if they don't hold a NZ licence? I don't believe they can. (Even if you are to convert under the TTMRA it takes a few weeks for the licence to come through... they need aircraft and crew now, not in a few weeks)
I know there are a lot of NZ licence holders flying for Virgin but if they are already allocated in crewing, perhaps the only way to make it work in the short term is to use a NZ rego'd aircraft and NZ crews.

I'd give it a few weeks before crying foul on this one!


EDIT: Now that QF has pulled the pin from Monday might I suggest that there wll be more than one PB aircraft flying around...

[mikk_13]

Time to make some money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I bet V will have every bit of metal in the sky they got.

[SINGLEREDLINE]

It does not seem that long ago that VB pilots where weathing out the GFC flying for PB. I was lucky enough to fly with some of those guys in NZ and found them to be humble, professional and down right good blokes (can only remember flying with one ********). No one at PB seemed to care because it was helping secure their company’s future. The same is true of the current Qantas situation. It is a once in a life time opportunity for JB. While on a personal level I feel for all those involved at Qantas. Clinically there is a short but definite window of opportunity for Virgin Australia to increase its market share.


Please comment on the following.


1-As I understand the PB pilots will be given additional cash over and above their nz money so they are not undercutting us in Australia. In fact if you factor in accommodation and travel they probably cost the company more than Australian labour.


2-The PB pilots are being instructed by their union that its ok to apply for the short term Australian domestic work.


3-The PB pilots are being told the Australian unions are aware and understanding of the limited Oz domestic flying


4-As nose wheel first has mentioned the need for additional aircraft is now, and the paperwork required to allow Australian crew to operate ZK aircraft will take a while. Waiting for this will cause the company to miss the window of opportunity.


5-Some of the whining on this tread is being written by people who do not appreciate the magnitude of what is going on in the marketplace, or do no care about anything other than when their command is coming up. Some of you have been flying red jets for less time than PB crew.


I’ve had many a beer with PB/VB/Voz pilots on overnights. One thing that seems to set us apart from our institutionalised mates from other airlines is that we generally get on.. Yep sometimes the gap in pay, conditions, lifestyles and promotions can cause interesting discussions, but I’ve never seen an argument. Generally we respect each other, and acknowledge we work for the same group. What is good for the group is good for us under our current management. Provided there is no undercutting and this PB domestic thing is short term and good for the broader company I don’t see a problem.

[SW3]

In a time of need, use whatever capacity possible and keep these passengers coming back!

[drop bear ten]

Even if the QF thing were to be resolved today, the forward bookings that will flow to VB will be a boost for months to come. Other than cost, the other reason people choose a particular carrier is certainty of schedule.

[ohallen]

Other than cost, the other reason people choose a particular carrier is certainty of schedule.

Suggest also that they also choose a carrier because of bad experiences with another. In this case abandoning loyal business, families and high frequency travellers offshore will not be forgotten in a hurry.

Would not also underestimate the anger of the politicians on this one.

The only thing that may save the Brand damage is the collective heads of the Chairman and the CEO both publicly on display on regulatory poles.

[always inverted]

I had also herd that the pb crew were told that the aust unions were ok with the flying.
You must also remember that pb operated the bali flights and dempasar flights...Now the vb crew do them, did the pb crew moan that aussies were taking their flying ? Also havent the honiara flights been taken from pb and given to the vb crews, do you hear the moaning ? no...
The problem is, that some idiots on here hide behind the mask of a private identity and slag everyone. Aussies are very pro australia( and that is a very good thing) but they are also really great at pointing the finger at "scabs" but rember that the 89ers also went and flooded the market in other countries and took jobs from locals, as they did in nz at the start of the pb days...

pb now has alot of ausies flying for them I hear but apparently they get along well with each other, as should you guys. The greater good of Virgin as a company should be the number one priority. JB has done an excellent job thus far and taking advantage of qantas screw-ups will increase their market share dramaticly.
I guess if you work for virgin and you have an issue with the arrangement then take it up with the man who sent the email out, dont hide behind the mask. Or stand up and say F#$k Yeah, virgin is an awesome company and we are going to be the national carrier of australia, I guess the intergration of the co's is eventually on the cards but I hope that if I get the chance to work for V that the crews on both sides of the tasman are able to get along not back stab and bitch like little girls.
Maybe those on here that are doing the pointing are small minded "gen y's" that stand there with their hand out or think they work for a great company by right.

:ugh::ugh:

Standing by, but Always Inverted.

[porch monkey]

Pb pilots have never operated dps and hkt. Has always been wet lease vb crewing. Under the oz aoc as well.

[DJ737]

02NOV11
DJ134 1430SYD-1605MEL 738
DJ135 1645MEL-1810SYD 738
Operated by Pacific Blue

[porch monkey]

There will be more, and they're welcome as far as I am concerned as long as it is a temporary measure, and they are paid accordingly.

[always inverted]

alas porch monkey, you are miss informed...
Do the flights say virgin aust pr pb ? mmm? yep, thought so...pb.:=

[Voz1]

Who cares, it's going to contribute to the bottom line, period... Pax don't care what the plane has painted on it, they buy a Virgin ticket, it is Virgin. I'm all up for the temp messure JB has put in place, PB guys are welcome if the T&C are topped up to DOM-EBA. This is all about bums on seats, simple. That why a VA B777 will operate SYD-MEL-SYD in the morning to assist in getting people to the Melbourne cup. :ok: First 777 to operate domestically in Australia:D

[Artificial Horizon]

Careful Voz1, you just stated that it is alright for foreign crews to operate each others sectors as long as it helps the companies bottom line and is done on local terms and conditions. I have heard that line many times from my boss who goes by the name BRUCE. Allowing the kiwis to operate in Australia 'could' be the start of a slippery slope.

[snakeslugger]

Porch Monkey is correct....Pacific Blue NZ has never operated to Bali or Phuket. Yes, they are generally Pacific Blue branded aircraft but have always been crewed by VB crew.

[Voz1]

AH, thats my view, call it a democracy. I don't see the problem. Virgin are going to top up the T&C to match the DOM-EBA. What do you think is going to happen with the PB guys in the long term? Are we going to whinge and bitch if they fold them into the VA EBA, are we going to whinge and bitch if they dont? Get it! it's a tempory messure to get extra bums on seats, that would otherwise be lost. Im more than content to give JB the benefit of the doubt, after all his name is John not Bruce;)

[ad-astra]

Always Inverted

Alas - you are as your name suggests.

Call signs and crew and operator can be very different.

[DJ738]

Pacific Blue (New Zealand) has never operated to Bali or Phuket.

[porch monkey]

Speak up, Always Inverted! I can't hear you! Oh, I'm sorry, you are! I see your head is firmly up your own arse! Edto isn't relevant, neither is your timeline. Please accept that what I and others stated is accurate. You obviously don't work there. PB crew have never operated DPS or HKT. As far as Honiara is concerned, VB did some Honiara, and Nandi for that matter, at the time of the GFC. Was handed back to PB a long time ago. And yes, VB did Port Moresby too. Also now done by PB. You're either fishing, or you have NFI. Don't need you to find out "specifics", several of those who have corrected you actually work there. Maybe you should check your sources as you mentioned. Making sure they still work at VA would be a good start.

[On Guard]

The PB guys went to NZALPA and asked them to confirm the ok from AIPA/VIPA before undertaking this flying. I think we should be grateful that we have a great team culture and our Kiwi colleagues understand the line in the sand.

The guys at PB should be commended and thanked for 1. Their support and 2. Their integrity.

They were understandbly rather nervous about this whole thing.

It is a good thing that the majority of Virgin is supporting this also as it is PB doing us the favour NOT the other way around. If we do this right there will be more aircraft and promotion.

[virginexcess]

This all seems as you would hope it to be.


Opportunity presents itself,


Company engages with 3 unions in 2 countries to try and avoid bad/over reaction from workforce.


Company pre-empts concerns with offer to not undercut local conditions from CEO.

Unions accept.


Company makes good on said opportunity and improves bottom line.

Unions demonstrate to CEO that workforce is willing to be open minded and flexible as long as reasonable protections put in place.



All good from where i sit.
:D:ok::D:ok:

[porch monkey]

Yes, we finally have a management that wants to work with us to have a better future for the company. The least we can do is help them.:ok:

[overhere]

VB did some Honiara, and Nandi for that matter, at the time of the GFC. Was handed back to PB a long time ago. And yes, VB did Port Moresby too. Also now done by PB. You're either fishing, or you have NFI.

BNE/HIR is now being operated again by VBA.

[ad-astra]

....stand with JB and make VAus a better company than it is now

Correct...

[1a sound asleep]

I wouldn't worry they did a DJ9502 with VH-VPE 777 SYD-MEL Monday and despite all the stranded pax it flew with about 100 pax.

Things are back to normal and there is plenty of empty seats across all 4 carriers