Difference btween "Make left/right orbit" and "Make 360"

[crosspoint]

Hi,

Is there a difference between ATC instructions "make left/right orbit" and "make 360"? I mean a difference as execution from pilot's side or something.

Thank you.

[Not Long Now]

No difference

[crosspoint]

Are you sure? I mean is there any connection with angular velocity or with wind compensating if pilot executing orbit or 360?

Thank you!

[ILS 119.5]

"orbit left" gives a direction of turn for example if you are downwind right in a circuit pattern it will keep you away from the airfield "make 360" gives no direction and you could therefore turn in any direction: In the circuit or in the vicinity of an airfield you may well be given a direction and even in the upper air. If I'm asked to do a 360, then I ask for a direction.

[hvogt]

Yes, there is a difference. To orbit means to hold at one's present position, i.e. to fly in circles until further advised. To make a three sixty means to complete a full circle and proceed further once the circle has been completed.

Both instructions can be combined with a direction of turn (MAKE A THREE SIXTY TURN LEFT [or RIGHT], respectively ORBIT LEFT [or RIGHT]).

Reference: PANS-ATM 6.5.5.10 and 12.4.1.5.

[Danscowpie]

Huge difference.


For spacing orbit right/left and report again (position).


Is the only approved UK phraselogy for aircraft approaching visually.

make 360 is not even approved phraseology for the radar environment.
Its gash RT and means nothing.

[ILS 119.5]

It is approved in other European countries- "make a left/right three sixty" ("reason") and that's staight from the book.

[divingduck]

is not even approved phraseology for the radar environment.
Its gash RT and means nothing.

Haven't posted for a while, but couldn't let that one thru to the keeper without comment :)

You really need to get out more if you think that is non approved phraseology.
Doc 4444 may be worth a read.

Mind you, this from the country that after the read-back of coord says "coordinated" then hangs up..I mean "gash" or what?:ugh:

[Roffa]

is not even approved phraseology for the radar environment.
Its gash RT and means nothing.

I'll just add that at the moderately busy UK airport that I do approach for, where probably at least circa 50% of the crews are foreign, 'orbit' is not unknown to cause a blank stare from the cockpit... well it would if you could see it. The obvious confusion in the reply sort of suggests it anyway.

Whereas "make a 360 to the left/right" works 99.9% of the time. Given that I am often 'orbiting' out of any of four holds I like phraseology that works.

[reportyourlevel]

UK MATS Pt 1 contains the phrase "make a 360 turn left/right (reason, e.g. for spacing)" in the Appendix E, in the section ATs surveillance services, subsection delaying action. A little reading required, perhaps, Danscowpie? :-)

[tow-bar]

in manual of radiotelephony annex 10 and 9432-АN/925 you can find that examples for "orbit" are given on VFRs and "360" on IFRs

[slackie]

I don't have any documentation to back this up but as a controller if I asked for an orbit I would expect a rate one turn completed 2 minutes later... a 360 would imply a turn of the pilot's choice, probably not rate one, and probably lasting less than 2 minutes and with further instructions to follow another aircraft... and yes all VFR.:}

[mad_jock]

If your talking to a VFR only PPL they will more than likely not have a clue what a rate one turn is or for that matter know it should take 2 mins to complete. And there is no requirement for a turn and bank indicator to be fitted to VFR aircraft.

I see you NZ the PPL's might be taught it down there.

What you will get though is a 25-30 deg banked turn and how long that takes will depend on how fast the aircraft will be going.

[ILS 119.5]

An orbit or a 360 does not require a rate 1 turn as commercial a/c flying above 240k will probably not do them as the angle of bank is too steep. Easy calculation is TAS/10 + 7 will give near enough the angle of bank for a rate 1 turn if you want to do one.

[rymle]

How it's used on multiple airports in the country of polar bears;

'orbit left/right ...' = keep circling until I tell you otherwise
'make a left/right 360' = make one turn, then continue whatever heading/downwind you were on

[landedoutagain]

I know of someone who, when asked to do a 360 on final to give time for an inexperienced pilot ahead to land, did a loop. He said afterwards "no-one said which way to do it, so i did a vertical one!"

[Wojtus]

That's why you need to say left/right :8

And, with 4444, it's not "make orbit", is just "orbit left/right" (until further notice). Of course it's not comfortable with IFR, so we have holdings for them.

Anyway, it's common for pilots and atcos to mistake orbits and 360s.

[aditya104]

Yes, there is a difference. To orbit means to hold at one's present position, i.e. to fly in circles until further advised. To make a three sixty means to complete a full circle and proceed further once the circle has been completed.

Both instructions can be combined with a direction of turn (MAKE A THREE SIXTY TURN LEFT [or RIGHT], respectively ORBIT LEFT [or RIGHT]).

Reference: PANS-ATM 6.5.5.10 and 12.4.1.5.

I have read the same in the textbook JAA ATPL Oxford Jeppessen-Communications Pg 8-1(141).

Qs.3 'ORBIT RIGHT' means:
Ans (b) Continue to make right hand turn until advised

Does anyone know where this could be in Australian CASA regulations or FAA/JAA regulations?

[Andy Mayes]

Thinking about UK VFR operations OCAS and outside the ATZ for instance, when approaching the ATZ boundary whilst joining the circuit, at a previous unit it was common that we had to hold those VFR joiners outside and it was not wise to issue a direction, IIRC the approved instruction at that unit was "hold at 3/4/5 miles", no direction of orbit was given, if we were required to orbit then inside the ATZ, the direction of orbit was given or if no preference, it was left to the pilot.

[Eric T Cartman]

Many moons ago @ Liverpool :
Tower : "Shamrock XXXX, make a 360, backtrack & vacate via the fast turn-off"
Shamrock : "Is it alright if we stop at 180?"
[ATCO name witheld to protect the guilty ;-) ]

[hvogt]

Does anyone know where this could be in Australian CASA regulations or FAA/JAA regulations? Don't know about regulations down under or in the US, but you'll definitely find no JARs with regard to radio phraseology. The Joint Aviation Authorities was a supranational organisation that doesn't exist anymore; their regulations (the Joint Aviation Requirements - JAR) were to be implemented into national legislation and are now in the process of being transferred into EASA rules, i.e. rules of the European Union, and there never were any JARs concerning radio phraseology in the first place.

I imagine all this is as confusing to you as the structure of your CASA regulations is to me.

[aditya104]

The Joint Aviation Authorities was a supranational organisation that doesn't exist anymore; their regulations (the Joint Aviation Requirements - JAR) were to be implemented into national legislation and are now in the process of being transferred into EASA rules, i.e. rules of the European Union, and there never were any JARs concerning radio phraseology in the first place.

Thanks for that information. :ok: So, EASA is the organisation presently responsible.

I imagine all this is as confusing to you as the structure of your CASA regulations is to me.
CASA should make something like this. Found it on EASA website (http://www.easa.europa.eu/regulations/regulations-structure.php).
http://www.easa.europa.eu/regulations/img/regulations_structure_600px.jpg (http://www.easa.europa.eu/regulations/img/regulations_structure1440x681px.jpg)

[aditya104]

I have read the same in the textbook JAA ATPL Oxford Jeppessen-Communications Pg 8-1(141).

Qs.3 'ORBIT RIGHT' means:
Ans (b) Continue to make right hand turn until advised

I wonder where the book authors got this from.

[mad_jock]

I wonder where the book authors got this from.

From the ATPL question bank. Its the answer in one of the exams.

[windowjob]

And when you don't want someone to do a complete hold but can't vector them off the fix first time - "at xxx make a 360 Left/Right, then fly heading xxx"

Some pedant will probably now tell me you should say "enter the hold (delay) followed by hold cancelled fly direct to xxx then heading xxx" but the first is simple, and obvious and less R/T time and used all the time.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Used to work fine for us, eh M??