Seniority: Good or Bad?

[ManUtd1999]

The majority of airlines use a seniority system to determine everything from promotion to work rosters, but others (Easyjet, Ryanair), don't use seniority at all. What are people's views on this?

Personally I'm against promotion based on seniority. I don't know of any jobs where people are promoted on that basis and why should aviation be different? The best candidates for command aren't necessarily the ones that have been with the company for the most years. What about hours logged with other airlines which could have given someone lots of valuable experience? Obviously some means of differentiation between the 100s or even 1000s of FO's that would apply for command, but setting a minimum number of total hours would reduce the volume of applications substantially. Everyone that is eligible could apply like you would for any other job, and recruitment team could make judgements based on any exams they chose to set, reports from current captains etc. Out of interest, how are command decisions taken by Easyjet and Ryanair?

Then there's the question of bid-lines. I don't think it's morally fair for a few long-serving captains to work practically when they want while newbies have to work ALL the bad shifts for their first few years. However, the ability to bid for work and have input into your own roster is surely a good thing. My ideal system would be one where promotion is taken out of the seniority system and the bid system is reformed slightly. I'd keep the system of bidding and lines being made on the basis of seniority, but I'd put in more rules whereby every roster has to include say 1 weekends work per month and 1 Christmas/New Year in 3 where appropriate. This would ensure the unpopular work is at least shared out a bit.

[leeds 65]

I understand the viewpoint that seniority is somehow 'unfair'.

However it is a safety valve against unscrupulous employers such as Ryanair. For example in a seniority based airline there is usually a step salary system ( increases the longer your in the company to a defined maximum after 15/20 years lets say). Thats proper order in most professional industries.

In ryanair you have 'contract' guys (not really) in the company 5 mins earning more than people who have been in Ryanair for 15 years ! Thats wrong.Another example - recently brookfield ( the 'contract provider') decided to increase the pay of captains by a token amount per hour.They stated that this increase is valid when your current contract expires! So basically you could have a new upgrade earning more than a fella here for years,because the fella here for years could have penned a contract 2 months ago for a few years.So he is frozen on lower rates compared to a new DEC or an FO who is lucky his contract is expiring around the time he upgrades !



Things like staff travel get better with experience/rank as well. In ryanair/loco = none.

Seniority works very well in tandem with a strong union - like BA,Virgin,Monarch etc. Even without a union in the company,seniority would ensure a rising defined career path getting better the more loyal you are.

For me it looks like a safety valve against pikeys like Ryanair who use the absence of a union and seniority to take the p*ss.

[macdo]

Suggest you use the 'search' function. This topic has been done to death for years and the only purpose it ever serves is to prove that if you are young/new to the industry seniority is seen as a disadvantage to your furtherance and if you are old/senior you see it as the main safety net protecting your income/job. End of...

[PPRuNeUser0204]

However it is a safety valve against unscrupulous employers such as Ryanair. For example in a seniority based airline there is usually a step salary system ( increases the longer your in the company to a defined maximum after 15/20 years lets say). Thats proper order in most professional industries.

What other industries?? Not in Construction, Finance or Law!

[OPEN DES]

Getting rid of seniority would only work if all airlines at the same time would stop applying it. This would never happen for many reasons.

If it would happen in theory, it would be a good thing. Half of the guys in the LHS, the others in the RHS. Ability to move between companies purely based on merit and experience would be great. Finally we would all have common interests.. and be united.
Am I missing something here?

[Narrow Runway]

OPEN DES,

Yes. You are assuming that nepotism and cronyism do not exist.

But they do. They are alive & kicking.:mad:

[PPRuNeUser0204]

Pardon Roy?! Most jobs it's a flat rate unless you get promotion. So belt up :ok:

[ManUtd1999]

Narrow Runway - this would be a potential problem but even if a few people worked their way up because they were well connected, it wouldn't be the norm and the laws regarding interview procedure are quite stringent nowadays to try and prevent this.

[Desert185]

Macdo:
Suggest you use the 'search' function. This topic has been done to death for years and the only purpose it ever serves is to prove that if you are young/new to the industry seniority is seen as a disadvantage to your furtherance and if you are old/senior you see it as the main safety net protecting your income/job. End of...

+1

Eliminate seniority? Yet another redistribution of wealth scheme...with the company ultimately (and often discriminately) controlling everyone's destiny...young or old.

[Narrow Runway]

WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SMOKING?

Interview standards may be stringent in the world you occupy, however, there are MASSIVE variances around the globe.

Do BA operate the same upgrade policy as Ghana Airlines for instance? Or do China Eastern for instance follow all the same procedures as American Airlines?

I have never, never, never ever read such a fatuous reply as yours.

The mind boggles at the naivety of some people. At least mine does.:ugh::sad::ugh:

[ManUtd1999]

Narrow Runway - its not a case of being naive, I have already said that there are problems with a non-seniority based system - nothings perfect. Is it really better though to have a system where people are given command based on length of service as opposed to ability?

[20driver]

There may have being good reasons for it in the legacy world of regulated airlines with limited opportunities to move but right now seniority is win win for companies.

One reason is it makes the very vexing scheduling issue easier to deal with.

The big bonus is it keep the pilots as effectively indentured servants. No other industry does this, not one. The one thing that all managers fear is employees, particularly employees with expensive training, heading for the door. Only airline pilots face starting over at the bottom as a penalty for leaving so they logically will sit there enduring death by a thousand cuts.

Spare me about the unscrupulous operators, etc. They will always be there.
Don't go on about how I did , so you can suffer through - that is the problem.

It would be simple enough to have a system thats rotates bidding rights fairly among all pilots and pays for seniority based on time in the company and not on equipment or routes. If your pay and work conditions are not going to be impacted what you fly and what you get paid why would you care where the newbie comes in at ?

Command upgrades could be an issue but that can be worked out.

If pilots were smart they would work a system where they were truly freelancers working for the highest bidder. The insurance companies will control the bottom end as they will force companies to have standards. (That is assuming there is a correlation between cockpit competence and loss rate, there is right?)

[Aerlingus231]

But how would you measure ability? In the majority of businesses you are paid more for finding the more creative ways you can come up with to solve problems.We are paid to follow the flows of the checklists. While experience makes a difference among pilots, you can't simply say, "He seems like a good pilot, he deserves a raise". While seniority within a company may not make sense other than to promote loyalty, a seniority based system based on TT is probably the way forward, but then the issue arises of companies not employing the more experienced pilots as they would be more expensive than 200hr types.

Just my €0.02

[ManUtd1999]

As 20Driver says, airlines love seniority because it effectively removes competition from the pilot job market - and they have even managed to get pilots believing its good for them.

Ability could be measured using all sorts of things. Total flying time and experience as an initial sift, after that quality of applications, performance reports from current captains, interviews, exams - there are lots of possibilities.

[Tooloose]

Are you suggesting that there should be a rigorous system of assessments and checks in the simulator and on the aircraft plus a review of the individual's training and employment record before he/she is considered for promotion to captain?

[Check Airman]

Good or bad depends on where you are on the list. If you're at the top of the list, seniority is great. If you're at the bottom, it sucks.

Seniority is not what removes competition from the job market. Pay does. I'm all for a national (heck, international) seniority list, but the pay structure would have to be modified.

Thus if a 15 year United Captain chose to go to Delta, he would be at the bottom of the seniority list, but be on 15yr pay. Thus he would be properly compensated for his experience. The current nonsense of new company = yr1 pay has to stop.

[stilton]

It's the fairest system and while seniority (or the lack of it) affects your quality of life enormously when one gains a little it does not mean your simulator / line checks / conversion courses / command / upgrade training get any easier.



I don't know how it works in the Doctor / Lawyer / Accountant world but I do know they have nothing to do with being an Airline Pilot.



No matter how senior you are, if you can't cut the mustard, at the least you will
never see the left seat and at most you may be asked to leave !

[parabellum]

Spot on Stilton, a point many seem to overlook is that all pilots are expected to achieve and maintain a basic standard that is sufficient for them to command a public transport jet, if they don't then then don't gain the promotion to captain or, if already a captain, they lose that position.

If all qualified pilots** are of the required standard then promotion by seniority is the only way, if some are below standard they get passed over.

The young bloods who think they are the bees knees and promotion by meritocracy is the only way are the very ones who sometimes stumble on a command course.

qualified pilots** = Appropriate licence, sufficient experience, suitability and a required level of competence. You need a tick in every box.

[Dr Eckener]

Seniority is a terrible curse for pilots, and I just cannot understand why any support it. It stifles the job market, reduces pay, and leaves pilots stuck with a particular employer. Without seniority 'strong unions' would not be required.

Proposing Ryanair and the likes as a reason to maintain it is a falsehood. They tend to get stuck at RYR because of other companies seniority systems, so are open to abuse by MOL.

Even the senior pilots who, according to some, are the beneficiaries of this nonsense don't actually benefit.

[Mikehotel152]

What's all this about promotion being based on merits?

Never really saw that it the legal profession or with friends and family in the City. Plenty of the best professionals are passed over or abused by their more unscrupulous colleagues to get to the top of the ladder.

In most industries, unless you go self-employed, your career path is determined by the whims of your superiors. If kissing bums and talking the big talk is what you regard as a meritocracy, then I'm not really interested.

In a stable airline where people's length of service with the company is broadly reflected by the number of completed pages in their logbook, is not seniority ladder sensible?

As was stated above, seniority does not ensure promotion, merely the order in which those who merit promotion actually achieve it. Ergo, you may find that there are people in the LHS at some airlines who got there through meritocracy who might not achieve the same exhalted postion in an airline that promotes on the basis of seniority...

As for rostering and holidays, I think I'm right in saying that there are mechanisms to ensure that being at the bottom of the seniority ladder does not consign you to working every Christmas etc.

;)

That said, it ought to be possible to move between airlines and be slotted in to a suitably senior position. That certainly does happen in other professions. Reform rather than revolution?

[Trossie]

Read Ernest Gann's "Fate is the Hunter": seniority was a curse in the 1930s and 1940s and I suspect it still will be in the 2030s...

[Peter47]

Here is the view of someone who is not a pilot but has had experience of the airline & rail industries. My father flew for the RAF but things are different in the military.

I can see the argument for seniority when you are up against nepotism - doubtless that is why the system was introduced many decades ago - but there is also the question of gradient. Everything improves with length of service - pay rate, ability to choose the best days to work, fleet, etc. Compare this with the rail industry where there is effectively a flat rate and in many cases (not always) a standardised roster which shares work equitably between all staff. As a result drivers and other staff were quick to move between employers - helped the union in negotiating higher rates no end when there was a shortage of trained drivers.

You could change the system so that increments are flatter (BA already has, by comparison look at US legacy carrier rates on ppjn) and introduce a system so that the most senior pilot gets his first choice, then the second most senior gets his choice etc. Once everyone has picked you start again. Its still seniority based but far flatter. (I saw a discussion of Carmen v Bidline on another thread.)

Seniority is essentially a zero sum game. Its up to the pilot workforce to push for changes. Why would an airline management wish to take on a union on an issue where there is no overall benefit to it? I seem to remember that in the days of the BA shuttle with its BAC111 back up flights a group of pilots who who spent most of their hours in the crew room getting bored waiting for a back up flight did start a job action (Rage) but I dare say that the senior pilots weren't that interested.

The question of merging seniority lists is interesting. The AF/KL & BA/IB approach of course is not to. With US carriers its a question of how stong the carriers are (pushed to its exteme with AA/TW where all the TWA staff went to the bottom of the list). I suspect that European employment law would prevent a repeat of AA/TW but what would happen is that the failing carrier wouldn't be taken over thus all pilots would go to the bottom of the list of their next employer. It could be interesting to see if a large number of BMI slots are sold if it could be argued if it is a TUPE transfer (probably not but I might try it if I flew for BD).

Seniority basically means that you get a better deal the younger you join a carrier. When will someone challenge this under EU ageism legislation?

A few years ago BALPA asked why the status of the pilot had decreased. I suspect that the status of a BA pilot is still quite high but years ago if you joined a flag carrier you didn't expect it to fail it was a job for life (and doubtless you got loss of licence insurance). These days airlines fail. The relative merit of AA & TWA pilots was based on the relative strengths of their carriers not how good they were. In most professions you can gain a reputation and carry it with you. Not in the piloting profession. Is this leading to a loss of status?

[A-3TWENTY]

With the recent pilot`s shortage the market is improving and are the contract pilots who are somewhat pushing the salaries up.

Contracts have been better paid through out the latest years , specially in Asia and the pilot´s constant moving from one company to another made HRs pay you better in order to keep their pilots.

Since pilots are more and more keeping away from unions ,we are now in the era of supply and demand.

I think seniority is bad for us all in this moment.

My2cents

[Sciolistes]

I think seniority is essential in a role that is that of an operator. In business things are different, one generally has to justify ome's pay with your performance. With some roles, a good decision can directly loose or save thousands, if not, millions. Of course, without six monthly recurrent sim, the politics of seperating the bull****ers from the doers can be problematic.

With flying, our ability and suitability is easily measured, even if one disagrees with the metric. Therefore a merely competant pilot is unlikely improve the company's bottom line measurably more than Mr Situational Awareness. A pilot's lot is that the path is generally laid out for us (SOPs), all we have to do is follow it. Dealing with business related problems is genrally about flexibility (discretion, working on a day off, etc). Managing operational issues, are generally about remaing legal and identifying when plan has to change. This will never be a direct benefit to the business and caution usually costs a lot of beans.

So, in the same role, how can anybody justify a better package, other than loyalty?

[Pepperseed]

" Managing operational issues, are generally about remaing legal and identifying when plan has to change."

"when" plan has to change.... agreed..
But equally importantly "WHAT" new plan should be adopted with obvious implications costs wise. Some pilots - based on experience and knowledge - are better than others on that front in spite of their [sometimes] lower seniority within a company.
If they are not promoted before their less capable but more senior colleagues thats a potencial loss for the company. Winter ops will kick in soon: typically the kind of circumstances where real experience makes the difference in terms of non standard situations management with serious costs implications down the line...

[Sciolistes]

I hear you, but a competant pilot is, by definition, able to cope. Their solution may or may not be optimal, but it will be safe and it will be appropriate. Competantcy will be perceived by some to be a subjective assessment. But organisationally, it will be objective. Hence seniority.

[Aerlingus231]

...or they'd only hire the low 200hr guys and anyone who has any experience is thrown to the side as they're more expensive...

[Aerlingus231]

Try telling that to short term focused managers. Do you seriously think airlines like RYR or others focused on cost and not service are gonna pay more just for the "Privilege" of having experience in the cockpit?

[kanetoads]

So why would the airlines wish to operate in the same Darwinian reality as the rest of the world? Why would they want to be exposed to the harsh reality of those that fail are swept away, and the creme rises to the top? Better to hire robots that do what the airline says, because in the end, they just want guys to warm the seats. They haven't wanted pilots for years.

[White Knight]

I don't think it's morally fair for a few long-serving captains to work practically when they want while newbies have to work ALL the bad shifts for their first few years.

Stop blubbing you nonce:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Seniority is the ONLY way for a large group of professionals in the same company. It's NOT like law or medicine - show me a law firm that employs 3,000 lawyers!!!!

As for promotion - you get your go when your number comes up! If you haven't got the minerals then you fail. Simple!

One seniority number across all the airlines is not possible - too many variations in training, culture etc etc.

[ManUtd1999]

It would be easy to implement a worldwide seniority system to allow people to keep the same payscale when they move between airlines, but airline bosses will never want to do it.

As for the bid-line aspect of seniority, it seems like its the same old scenario of people defending it when they have something to gain out of it and most other people supporting a change.

[G.S. Willy]

What seems fair to me, will seem blatantly unjust and unfair to you. Truth lies in the eyes of the beholder.

I know of no pilot union, in any company wanting to get rid of the seniority lists, actually they insist on it as it regulates upgrades, preventing DEC( ask any SFO with 10-15 years in the right seat how he/she would feel about this)

I agree with some of the arguments against seniority lists, but they do contribute to peace and calm among the pilots in a company, giving them a chance to stand together against a management using divide and conquer tactics.
I will argue that you will find the most satisfied pilots in companys with a union and a seniority list, as predictability is important to many of us.

We do have a choice, if a quick command is important to you, choose contracting, and chase the best opportunity the market has to offer at any given time, if predictability, pension, and other benefits are more important, choose a company with a union and a seniority list. Simple ;-)

[Joe le Taxi]

My abiding memory of a seniority airline, is the CC, made up of the most senior pilot 'reps', feathering their own nests very nicely thank you, always at the expense of the junior pilots. :rolleyes: The disparity just got wider and wider, year after year. It was divide and conquer at its most effective. If there had been no seniority, their interests would instead have been aligned with all the other pilots.

Yes, we did try to get a junior bod in, but it wasnt easy, not least because they kept leaving, due to the terrible terms for junior pilots!

[SMOC]

I'm for seniority when it works, at CX we have a seniority list.

BUT

We have had DECs
We have had DEFOs
We don't get leave in seniority
We don't get rosters in seniority
Upgrades in seniority are loosely based on the list but it's abused.

Our pilots don't leave because they can't afford to go to the bottom of another seniority list.

The most junior pilots got up to a 50% payrise our most senior 0%

Plus we have legal system that is completely corrupt, read "The 49ers the true story".

The sooner we're all guns for hire the better.


Correction we don't have DECs we have "Rapid Commands" you're hired at the bottom of the seniority list as an S/O, F/O or whatever within a week you're a Captain. This is what happened when CX took the Oasis crew.

[ManUtd1999]

Out of interest, how does promotion work at Easyjet/Ryanair in the absence of seniority?

[eagerbeaver1]

Every man for himself.