View Full Version : Procedural question
tubby linton
20th Oct 2011, 15:42
Just had this scenario in the sim.
In the Dayne hold at minimum holding altitude.Manchester arrival radar has failed and the clearance is for a procedural VOR approach on 23R via the MCT. My question is whether you can route Dayne- MCT and go straight outbound or does it require a course reversal in the MCT hold as the arrival route track is not within 30 degrees of the outbound track of the procedure?
I vote reversal. (Procedurally/sim, of course....:hmm:)
tubby linton
20th Oct 2011, 17:08
The instrument approaches at MAN from the MCT do not join up with the arrivals so I was interested to get a controllers perspective on what he would expect an aircraft to do. I went straight outbound without any problems as we are allowed to use Nav outbound in the procedure and it turned exactly onto the radial.
ZOOKER
20th Oct 2011, 17:49
Never seen this done in reality as EGCC have 3 radars they can use, the airfield-sited 'Watchman', and the St. Annes and Clee Hill long-range radars. The chances of Manch going 'procedural' are fairly slim. Even if Approach lost everything, Scottish would probably provide a limited radar service to the airport.
I would expect DAYNE-MCT with a right-turn to enter the procedure.
Interesting conundrum - how can you use 'Nav' on a 'Procedural'? Should that not strictly be an 'RNAV' arrival?
ZOOKER
20th Oct 2011, 20:39
BOAC,
My thinking goes way, way, back to the days before the MCT. The southern hold at Manch was the Congleton NDB. There were 2 NDBs, the 'MCR', (in Knutsford 25nm range), and the 'ME', (in Edgeley, 15nm range).
The non-radar procedures at that time were CON-MCR-ME, (due to the ME's limited range). Although holds were published at all the beacons, no reversal procedure was ever mentioned in training. This was all in the days of 'clockwork instruments' of course.
A cunundrum indeed.
Can you remember the Kestral RNAV trial with BUSBY, TRAFA, MELLA and ETLEY? A precoursor of 'Point-Merge'?
tubby linton
20th Oct 2011, 21:51
Company approval allows us to use Nav mode to the end of the outbound leg on any approach procedure.
Tubbs - that's fine with me and immensely practical and safe, but my query is a 'regulatory' one regarding how do 'procedural' v RNAV mesh now-a-days.
An ATC answer would be useful!