Can Airport Management ground an ac for not "properly" deiced?

[xcris]

An who's the final responsibility to establish if ice occurs and what measures to be taken? Not Captain's?!

Carpatair pilots refuse to de-ice planes because of costs. One pilot tries to trmove frost with a broom (http://bucharestherald.com/dailyevents/41-dailyevents/26783-carpatair-pilots-refuse-to-de-ice-planes-because-of-costs-one-pilot-tries-to-trmove-frost-with-a-broom)

[TURIN]

The deicing operation is strictly related to the commander’s competence and decision and applies based on the weather conditions on the airport at the time of take-off. This morning (Monday), the Cluj weather was with clear sky and temperatures above zero, and deicing was not necessary.

I'm sure there's supposed to be something about the condition of the flying surfaces somewhere. :suspect:

[xcris]

TURIN: According to LRCL airport representatives at the time (Monday 0700z) the airframe was contaminated (there is a video proving that) and the CPT asked for deicing equipment to be present at the ac. Meanwhile the sun started to melt the ice and he, as a second tought maybe, refused the deicing, waiting for the ice to be melted naturally. He eventually tookoff with a (+1 hr) delay.

[TURIN]

So, a non-story then. Blown out of all proportion by the press.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?;)

[xcris]

Actually there is a story here, since both the Airport Management and the company (Carpatair) filed accusations on eachother to the Romanian Aviation Authority on this topic... Further, Carpatair announced they will cancel the operations from CLJ (1 flight/day), fire all personel, and is accusing CLJ manager for harrasing them and trying to make profit out of them, forcing them to deice at high price (EUR 7-800 for that airframe) doesn't matter it's required or not... On the other side the manager said they have taken the decision to leave earlier beimg almost in insolvency and this is only parade. Things are evolving wight now.

Beyond all of this mess, I have only a basic question is: Can the airport management block an ac on ground for not being properly deiced?!

[grounded27]

Can the airport management block an ac on ground for not being properly deiced?!

If they have influence over the tower I suppose they could refuse T/O clearance. This is poor business, obviously the airport was attempting to extort money out of the airline and probably had been for some time. The captain should be the final word on deicing.

[happybiker]

I think the Regulations are pretty clear on this it is the operators/commander's call whether to de-ice or not. The airport management does not have the competence in respect of the specific aircraft

EU-OPS
OPS 1.345

Ice and other contaminants — ground procedures

(a) An operator shall establish procedures to be followed when ground de-icing and anti-icing and related inspections of the aeroplane(s) are necessary.

(b) A commander shall not commence take-off unless the external surfaces are clear of any deposit which might adversely affect the performance and/or controllability of the aeroplane except as permitted in the Aeroplane Flight Manual.

[Dufo]

Having flown to Cluj several times, I somehow understand that crew.
We had to negotiate, pay in advance a certain amount (in cash), close the doors and hope they will de/anti ice all areas.

Overall strangest s*ithole place around :{

[Northbeach]

Normally, at a civilian airport, the pilot in command (Captain) would have the final authority regarding the requirement to de-ice.

[airman13]

yeah,...... mr. petrov is short of money.

[Hansoff]

and when it is snowing most Captains can't see the state of the control surfaces, have no idea if the ground crew really did de-ice with the proper stuff, but have to decide to go ....... nogo.

[Spitoon]

Can Airport Management ground an ac for not "properly" deiced?It will depend on the local legislation.

In my experience it is - as it should be - entirely the aircraft commander's decision. Any/everyone else has a responsibility to advise the commander of any information that might affect the safety of the aircraft - and armed with this info, the commander makes the necessary decisions.

The issue of whether de-icing is done properly is a bit different. Again limited to my own experience, in most cases there is no way for the commander to check whether de-icing has been done satisfactorily. Sometimes a representative from the operator (with the necessary competence) has been able see the results but more often either there's no-one there or the aircraft is de-iced in a remote location. In an ideal world the operator will set standards for the airport/handling agents to work to and will check/audit that the standards are being achieved. The State CAA should also ensure that the airport is set up to perform such activities competently before certifying the aerodrome.

[dusk2dawn]

Airport Management is just that: Airport Management. They do not posses any particular inspection authority and can only deny operation if you don't pay the stipulated charges. The case described should have been dealt with by designated Civil Aviation Authority staff, like a SAFA inspection team.

[xcris]

Thank everybody very much! Your inputs were very helpful!
Cris

[xxxpil]

No, its not their responsability.

[Piltdown Man]

Fortunately, airport's don't have the authority. And I, like the Captain in this story, will not waste money de-icing unless I have too. But that doesn't mean that I'll take off with a contaminated aircraft. The sun can do a marvellous job at de-icing an aircraft and why not use it when you have the possibility. The important thing is that you do a proper inspection before departure. So in the end it looks like the airport got a bit miffed because they couldn't extract the extortionate fees they were hoping to. Maybe one of its directors owns the de-icing concession?

As for the broom - well the cost difference in brushing snow off with a broom instead of using de-icing fluid is thousands of Euros, yes thousands! I've seen an invoice.