Black Buck, Victor and Martel ARM...

[cokecan]

Afternoon Gents,

while reading Vulcan 607 again, i noticed a piece about the frantic efforts to marry the Martel ARM to Victor tankers in the very early days of the war, and that subsequently the SEAD role had been undertaken by Vulcans armed with Shrike ARM's - that absolutely weren't from the US, oh no siree... - and i wondered how far the Martel/Victor project had got, and why (if) it foundered?

i remember the Nimrod/Sidewinder capability, but were there any other bizaare (ingenious) ideas for progressing the war that either never saw the light of day, or did, and never got the regognition they deserved?

cheers.

[Fitter2]

The book covers in passing some of the effort to fit/refit refuelling capability, but does not mention the frantic efforts at Boscombe Down to rapidly add refuelling capability to several types. From memory six out of seven type's modifications were completed and operational before the end of the conflict; the last one was estimated to be one week away from completion. On reversion to peacetime timescales, a further 18 months elapsed.

[air pig]

Well known problem, do mods to a/c in ten days, can't charge for two years of pratting about and paper shuffling. Contractor loses money, oh dear what a blow how sad.

[Bengo]

Or, in the case of the SHAR, do UOR mods to HUD WAC software in the SHAR SSF/SIM, then pay manufacturer to spend two years afterwards sorting out the mess.

The problem was not achieving function, but documentation and the airworthiness trail, though the end result was a lot more capability.
N

[small_dog]

Regarding the Martel missile, I was told by one of the people involved that after they had fitted it to the Vulcan, somebody read in one of the tech manuals that the missile couldn't withstand prolonged exposure to extremely cold temperatures (i think the missile was originally designed for the low level role)
I can't remember the limiting temp nor the time limit but it ruled out any flight from ascension to the Falklands.
Whilst you've asked about the Victor/Martel combination, I think this covers it.

[downsizer]

Probably would have had airworthiness issues too....:zzz::\:rolleyes:

[foldingwings]

Twas certainly launched from low level from the Buccaneer, however we did transit at high level with them (or their training equivalent ARAMs) but certainly not the distance that it might have covered getting 'darn sarf'! That said, I flew successfully from Honington against a Soviet fleet in the Iceland/Faeroe's Gap with ARAM - but it wasn't 8 hours plus at 35K feet, more like 2, and included AAR!!

Foldie:hmm:

[cheese bobcat]

If my memory serves me right, there was a trial flight where a Vulcan launched a Martel at Llanbedr range against some old ship radiating a signal. This following may be my old memory playing up, but apparently the missile took a liking to the Dublin television transmitter and went on its merry way in that direction. The safety cell decided that war with Ireland was too much to bear at that particular moment and pressed the destruct button.

[The Oberon]

I seem to remember that there was some concern with collateral damage if Martel was used, hence another reason for Shrike.

[Pontius Navigator]

One idea that was considered, and would probably have floundered for lack of crews, was to fly the Shack down to the task force.

In all seriousness they wanted to know how long we could remain on station before ditching.

As our endurance was about 14 hours and range speed about 180 kts I rather think we would have been a little short of the FIPZ. We could not have sustained that effort for long either - like 4-5 days :)

Even getting to ASI would have risked an outbreak of scurvy amongst the crews.

[Biggus]

PN,

The time has finally come for me to ask...."who are you?"

First of all your stated age is 68, although it appears people can put what they wish in there.....

You have just talked about being on Shacks in 82, which must have been the AEW variant, as that was all that was left by then.

You have talked on other threads about being at ISK and on the Nimrod fleet.

I believe you also mention having flown Vulcans and Phantoms - but maybe my memory is playing tricks.

On a recent thread you talked about Khormakkar "47 years ago", so if you were 18 then you must be at least 65 now.

You said the other day that you marched into a quarter for someone recently....


So, based on my memory of your contributions over the years, you are a 65+ yr old ex-nav who has flown, Shacks, Nimrods, Vulcans and Phantoms, who is currently at Waddo, presumably as some sort of civil servant?

I'm never sure whether you have had one of the most varied and interesting careers in the history of the RAF, or are the ultimate wind up merchant/walt who has been laughing his socks off at getting away with it for 9 years and 7,475 odd posts...?!

No accusation intended...

Anything you would care to say by way of enlightenment would be appreciated.

[cornish-stormrider]

Ok I have the popcorn machine up to full speed, the coffee on the go and plenty of malt for the worthy - I'm looking forward to this one.....

I'm charging a PBT for ringside, a slab for all other seats.

roll up roll up.

[davejb]

Anyone giving odds?
I fancy a flutter on PN here....

Dunno about Phantoms, but Vulcan, Nimrod, then AEW Shack is not improbable.... still being employed around the periphery less common but not impossible.

Could you avoid buttering the popcorn, the smell makes me gag.

[jamesdevice]

That begs the question of how the Navy expected to get the AEW Gannet that was rebuilt at Yeovilton's museum by the apprentices down to the Atlantic.
Were they intending to launch it off Bulwark without a catapult ??? (remember resurrecting Bulwark was seriously considered, despite the boiler and corrosion problems).
Or was it rebuilt in knowledge of the often repeated tale that the USA offered us the loan of Oriskany? Which in itself begs the question - how quickly could Oriskany have been manned up and populated with Phantoms and Buccs? Were the aircraft still carrier capable at that stage, and did we have enough manpower for the carrier?

[Marcantilan]

Interesting, I read somewhere that Oriskany was offered to Argentine Navy AFTER the war.

I think they want to get rid of Oriskany any way or another. Well, finally they sold it to the fish.

Regards!

[unclenelli]

The book is being televised to mark 30th Anniversary.

Expected to air on Channel 4 (UK) in May 2012 (My money is on a bank holiday weekend, probably the 1st one)

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, I confess, all true.

What you failed to pick up is I also flew Lancaster.

I am the age stated and I retired just under 2 years ago.

I set out to navigate and do as many different things that I could; I think I achieved most of what I set out to do.

[Just This Once...]

I guess PN has pretty much outed himself now; he can only be the one and only............!

Respect.

[Pontius Navigator]

JTO, as I have now retired I feel less need of the heavy cloak. As a matter of interest the late and great Gainsey recognised me several years ago from an article I had written. He recognised me not for what I had written, although that helped, but from how I wrote.

[Shackman]

I also heard talk of the Shack providing AEW cover to the fleet - but from a source within BAE who said they had been asked to look at providing the venerable lady with in flight refuelling capability. Apparently the powers that be failed to realise the difference between AVTUR and AVGAS!

[Navaleye]

I have met PN and if you ask him nicely he will tell you how they intercepted the same Bear twice in one sortie in a Shack!

[Pontius Navigator]

Not to mention the 18 hours to get there and 18 hours to get back. Assume 8 hours on task that would need 44 hours flying time and 2 aircraft with a 4 hour turnround.

Fuel quantities would have been quite modest, at a guess around 9,000 gallons per sortie. It would have been very sporty trying to offload fuel from a Victor at low level assuming the Victor could manage a split fuel system.

The limiting factor would undoubtedly have been the carriage of water and fresh food. :)

[Biggus]

PN,

Thanks for the expansion - a varied career indeed!

Your "user name" is singularly appropriate!! :D

[Union Jack]

Thanks for the expansion - a varied career indeed!

Your "user name" is singularly appropriate!!

Biggus - And because that's very big of you, so is as least half of yours!:ok:

Jack

[davejb]

Where do I pick up my winnings?

[Biggus]

The Beastie, where else.. :=

[Hoddy]

Martel ARM loaded to Victor outboard pylon in place of flight refuelling pod. Plan was to wire Bucc control panel into cockpit. Victor never flew in this fit as AAR had priority so the ARM role transferred to Vulcan. There are some photographs at Marham somewhere!

[cornish-stormrider]

Bodge tape, a beer bung and chinagraph.

Thats how to make it fit and work. Muchos kudos (he is Boutros's mexican cousin) to all involved .

Oops, I forgot the epoxy rattle fix.

[Pontius Navigator]

Returning to the Shack idea. We looked at the feasibility of operating from a friendly country. It would have involved a trans-atlantic, staging through the US and then down the Pacific coast. We didn't get much further than back-of-a-fag packet. We looked at all the potential staging points and considered whether they were neutral friendly or neutral hostile. We found a show stopper where the distance between neutral-friendlies was a touch far.

Had we gone we would then have had to consider the routing to a barrier patrol that avoided proximity to opposing forces. Quite an exercise and would have been very sporty.

I guess the real stow stopper was the lack of less-neutral and more friendly bases.

[Fareastdriver]

Apparently the powers that be failed to realise the difference between AVTUR and AVGAS!

That should have been OK once the engines had warmed up. The Fordson tractors of the same vintage used to be started on petrol and then switched to paraffin.

[ZH875]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/IMG_1657.jpg

Martel ARM on Vulcan at Ascension.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Interesting.

Was talking to a friend today who worked in ATC at the time. He'd been shown a flight plan for some Buccs that ended in Chile. Did any actually make it? I know the Canberras did.

[acmech1954]

I remember standing with Bill Rose(HP/Bae Rep of many years) when photo's were being taken of a Martel armed Victor, he had a very worried look on his face. In his opinion, if they ever flew with this thing attached, he thought that they would have to fire both sides at the same time, otherwise the Old girl would turn on her back with the forces needed when launching just one, as it was so far away from the centreline. Luckily he was never proved right or wrong.

[jamesdevice]

Photo of a Martel-armed Victor at
Victor - Falklands - Anti-Shipping Role - Britmodeller.com (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47762)

and from RAF Marham - Memory 5 - Lynne Braithwaite 1982 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafmarham/aboutus/memory5.cfm)
"Yet another interesting exercise was being carried out. The design and construction of Martel Missile Pylons to fit on the Victor wing in place of the Mk20B pods. The stress and design men arrived from BAe and worked in OC Eng's ( Wg Cdr Carruthers) with their drawing boards etc. Stn Workshops manufactured each part as soon as the design was completed. The Martel technicians were working flat out alongside the Victor Techies to devise the wiring and fitting of the control panels. Well in about two weeks the job was done and one a/c was actually fitted with the pylons and missiles and that was as far as it went."

[foldingwings]

Ewan,

He'd been shown a flight plan for some Buccs that ended in Chile

Not during the conflict but subsequently 4 Buccs deployed to Stanley just to make the point! My bro-in-law led them.

Foldie:D

[Lower Hangar]

By Bengo:
"Or, in the case of the SHAR, do UOR mods to HUD WAC software in the SHAR SSF/SIM, then pay manufacturer to spend two years afterwards sorting out the mess. "

No UOR mods done to SHAR HUDWAC software for the conflict. 2 Software updates (tapes actually) for FALK 82 (added SEAM into HUDCASS 2) and FALK LOFT 82 ( provided LOFT capability as alternate fit) - both updates produced by the Chief Engineer at Smiths Cheltenham - picked up on the Sunday before the Task Force sailed and delivered by yours truly to SHAR AEO's on Invincible and Hermes.
One NAVHARS update ( sets of programme cards /aircraft) dropped to us in the South Atlantic - provided capability to bomb point 'offset ' from that being marked by the Blue Fox -a lighthouse I think !! -That update came from Ferranti Edinburgh.

[Pontius Navigator]

then pay manufacturer to spend two years afterwards sorting out the mess..

Like Nimrod flight-refuelling system.

[pontifex]

PN. I think calling the Nimrod FR conversion during Corporate "a bit of a mess" is a little unfair. In the first place it had been decreed that the Ninrod was incapable of receiving AAR ( Boscombe pronouncement by a TP who had never prodded!) Once it had been judged actually easy, things went ballastic and a dummy probe was ready and fitted in about a week if memory serves. This was shown to be feasible with the addition of small finlets on the tailplane to restore directional stability. After a further week the working version was ready and two trial sorties were flown: one to show it worked and the other to demonstrate a max onload. On landing from that flight a BAe Devon was waiting on the tarmac to take the RAF TP (who just happened to be a former AARI) to Kinloss to train 4 pilots to do the business (they had been receiving intensive training in flying close line astern). Ernie Banfield then took on the AARI role after he had been suitably fettled.

Yes, I know it was a lash up but it worked and was never intended to be permanent. The decision to perpetuate the capability came later. p.s. Since you have flown all those types plus the Lanc I probably know you. Care to PN me?