Black Buck, Victor and Martel ARM...

[cokecan]

Afternoon Gents,

while reading Vulcan 607 again, i noticed a piece about the frantic efforts to marry the Martel ARM to Victor tankers in the very early days of the war, and that subsequently the SEAD role had been undertaken by Vulcans armed with Shrike ARM's - that absolutely weren't from the US, oh no siree... - and i wondered how far the Martel/Victor project had got, and why (if) it foundered?

i remember the Nimrod/Sidewinder capability, but were there any other bizaare (ingenious) ideas for progressing the war that either never saw the light of day, or did, and never got the regognition they deserved?

cheers.

[Fitter2]

The book covers in passing some of the effort to fit/refit refuelling capability, but does not mention the frantic efforts at Boscombe Down to rapidly add refuelling capability to several types. From memory six out of seven type's modifications were completed and operational before the end of the conflict; the last one was estimated to be one week away from completion. On reversion to peacetime timescales, a further 18 months elapsed.

[air pig]

Well known problem, do mods to a/c in ten days, can't charge for two years of pratting about and paper shuffling. Contractor loses money, oh dear what a blow how sad.

[Bengo]

Or, in the case of the SHAR, do UOR mods to HUD WAC software in the SHAR SSF/SIM, then pay manufacturer to spend two years afterwards sorting out the mess.

The problem was not achieving function, but documentation and the airworthiness trail, though the end result was a lot more capability.
N

[small_dog]

Regarding the Martel missile, I was told by one of the people involved that after they had fitted it to the Vulcan, somebody read in one of the tech manuals that the missile couldn't withstand prolonged exposure to extremely cold temperatures (i think the missile was originally designed for the low level role)
I can't remember the limiting temp nor the time limit but it ruled out any flight from ascension to the Falklands.
Whilst you've asked about the Victor/Martel combination, I think this covers it.

[downsizer]

Probably would have had airworthiness issues too....

[foldingwings]

Twas certainly launched from low level from the Buccaneer, however we did transit at high level with them (or their training equivalent ARAMs) but certainly not the distance that it might have covered getting 'darn sarf'! That said, I flew successfully from Honington against a Soviet fleet in the Iceland/Faeroe's Gap with ARAM - but it wasn't 8 hours plus at 35K feet, more like 2, and included AAR!!

Foldie

[cheese bobcat]

VULCAN AND MARTEL

If my memory serves me right, there was a trial flight where a Vulcan launched a Martel at Llanbedr range against some old ship radiating a signal. This following may be my old memory playing up, but apparently the missile took a liking to the Dublin television transmitter and went on its merry way in that direction. The safety cell decided that war with Ireland was too much to bear at that particular moment and pressed the destruct button.

[The Oberon]

I seem to remember that there was some concern with collateral damage if Martel was used, hence another reason for Shrike.

[Pontius Navigator]

One idea that was considered, and would probably have floundered for lack of crews, was to fly the Shack down to the task force.

In all seriousness they wanted to know how long we could remain on station before ditching.

As our endurance was about 14 hours and range speed about 180 kts I rather think we would have been a little short of the FIPZ. We could not have sustained that effort for long either - like 4-5 days

Even getting to ASI would have risked an outbreak of scurvy amongst the crews.

[Biggus]

PN,

The time has finally come for me to ask...."who are you?"

First of all your stated age is 68, although it appears people can put what they wish in there.....

You have just talked about being on Shacks in 82, which must have been the AEW variant, as that was all that was left by then.

You have talked on other threads about being at ISK and on the Nimrod fleet.

I believe you also mention having flown Vulcans and Phantoms - but maybe my memory is playing tricks.

On a recent thread you talked about Khormakkar "47 years ago", so if you were 18 then you must be at least 65 now.

You said the other day that you marched into a quarter for someone recently....


So, based on my memory of your contributions over the years, you are a 65+ yr old ex-nav who has flown, Shacks, Nimrods, Vulcans and Phantoms, who is currently at Waddo, presumably as some sort of civil servant?

I'm never sure whether you have had one of the most varied and interesting careers in the history of the RAF, or are the ultimate wind up merchant/walt who has been laughing his socks off at getting away with it for 9 years and 7,475 odd posts...?!

No accusation intended...

Anything you would care to say by way of enlightenment would be appreciated.

[cornish-stormrider]

Ok I have the popcorn machine up to full speed, the coffee on the go and plenty of malt for the worthy - I'm looking forward to this one.....

I'm charging a PBT for ringside, a slab for all other seats.

roll up roll up.

[davejb]

Anyone giving odds?
I fancy a flutter on PN here....

Dunno about Phantoms, but Vulcan, Nimrod, then AEW Shack is not improbable.... still being employed around the periphery less common but not impossible.

Could you avoid buttering the popcorn, the smell makes me gag.

[jamesdevice]

That begs the question of how the Navy expected to get the AEW Gannet that was rebuilt at Yeovilton's museum by the apprentices down to the Atlantic.
Were they intending to launch it off Bulwark without a catapult ??? (remember resurrecting Bulwark was seriously considered, despite the boiler and corrosion problems).
Or was it rebuilt in knowledge of the often repeated tale that the USA offered us the loan of Oriskany? Which in itself begs the question - how quickly could Oriskany have been manned up and populated with Phantoms and Buccs? Were the aircraft still carrier capable at that stage, and did we have enough manpower for the carrier?

[Marcantilan]

Interesting, I read somewhere that Oriskany was offered to Argentine Navy AFTER the war.

I think they want to get rid of Oriskany any way or another. Well, finally they sold it to the fish.

Regards!

[unclenelli]

Vulcan 607 on TV

The book is being televised to mark 30th Anniversary.

Expected to air on Channel 4 (UK) in May 2012 (My money is on a bank holiday weekend, probably the 1st one)

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, I confess, all true.

What you failed to pick up is I also flew Lancaster.

I am the age stated and I retired just under 2 years ago.

I set out to navigate and do as many different things that I could; I think I achieved most of what I set out to do.

[Just This Once...]

I guess PN has pretty much outed himself now; he can only be the one and only............!

Respect.

[Pontius Navigator]

JTO, as I have now retired I feel less need of the heavy cloak. As a matter of interest the late and great Gainsey recognised me several years ago from an article I had written. He recognised me not for what I had written, although that helped, but from how I wrote.

[Shackman]

I also heard talk of the Shack providing AEW cover to the fleet - but from a source within BAE who said they had been asked to look at providing the venerable lady with in flight refuelling capability. Apparently the powers that be failed to realise the difference between AVTUR and AVGAS!