Did the Starfighter ever shoot anything down?

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

The US Zippers? No, I don't think so, despite some 104Cs serving in SEA.
Dutch? Not as far as I know.
The Japanese 104J? Nope.
Italians (zippy 104S) Nope
All those 104Gs in Germany? I don't think so.
Canadians? Nope.
Norwegians? ermm, nope
Turks and Greeks. A possibility???
Taiwanese? Hard to tell really.
Jordan.......?
Belgians? Come on!
Pakistan? Could be. not sure.


All that good work by Lockheeds and 'Kelly' Johnson brought them a Collier trophy and of course led to the U-2. Top marks to the Skunk works, as always.

But did all those thousands of 104s really enter/ leave service without a kill?

Standing by to be corrected!:ok:

[Archimedes]

Pakistani and Taiwanese F-104s are meant to have scored a few victories, IIRC.

[kbrockman]

From Wiki;
USAF F-104Cs saw service during the Vietnam War, and F-104A aircraft were deployed by Pakistan briefly during the Indo-Pakistani wars. Republic of China Air Force (Taiwan) F-104s also engaged the People's Liberation Army Air Force (mainland China) over the disputed island of Kinmen.
Lockheed F-104 Starfighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter)

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Anyone got anything more specific about the Pakistan or Taiwanese 104s?

Or anyone elses'. ;)

[ORAC]

Too lazy even to check Wiki? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter) :rolleyes:

ndia-Pakistan Wars

Main articles: Indo-Pakistani wars and conflicts and Aerial warfare in 1965 India Pakistan War

At dawn on 6 September 1965, Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam Khan in an F-104 claimed a Dassault Mystère IV destroyed over West Pakistan and another damaged, marking the start of aerial combat in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. It is claimed as the first combat kill by any Mach 2 aircraft, and the first missile kill for the Pakistan Air Force. Indian sources dispute this claim.[19][page needed] The PAF lost one F-104 Starfighter during the 1965 operations, scoring two kills in return. However, one of the F-104 Starfighter's victims was a Breguet Alize aircraft which belonged to the Indian Navy, which was shot down when a Starfighter was returning home from an aborted mission.[20]

The Starfighter was also instrumental in intercepting an Indian Air Force Folland Gnat earlier, on 3 September 1965. F-104s were vectored to intercept the Gnat flying over Pakistan, returning to its home base. The F-104s, closing in at supersonic speed, caused the Gnat pilot to lower the undercarriage and land at a nearby disused Pakistani airfield to surrender. The Indian AF claims Squadron Leader Brij Pal Singh (who later rose to be an Air Marshal) made a navigation error that led him to land on the Pakistani airstrip. Singh was taken as a POW and later released.[20] The IAF Gnat is now displayed at the PAF Museum, Karachi.

During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, two F-104As[21][22] were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark-infested waters, but was never found.[23] According to Western military analysts, the Indian MiG-21s had clearly "won" the much anticipated air combat between the MiG-21 and the F-104 Starfighter.[24][page needed]
[edit]

1967 Taiwan Strait Conflict

On 13 January 1967, four Republic of China (Taiwan) Air Force F-104G aircraft engaged a formation of 12 MiG-19s of the People's Liberation Army Air Force over the disputed island of Kinmen. Maj Shih-Lin Hu and Capt Bei-Puo Shih each shot down one People's Liberation Army Air Force MiG-19. This marked the first F-104 combat victory in the world. However, one F-104 did not return to base and its pilot was claimed as MIA.[25]

[ratpackgreenslug]

Never mind the Starfighter. Since WWII, has the RAF ever shot anything down? Own goals excluded (of course).

To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little.

[Edmund Spencer]

Well, Flt Lts Paul Barton and David Morgan albeit flying in Royal Navy Shars!
ES

[Lima Juliet]

Never mind the Starfighter. Since WWII, has the RAF ever shot anything down? Own goals excluded (of course).

To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little.

Oh, FFS, not this tired old question again?

Short version...

1948 4x Egyptian aircraft bagged by RAF Spitfires
1949 2x Israeli aircraft bagged by RAF aircraft - all hushed up for politics
1950s A bunch of MiGs bagged in Korea by RAF pilots on US F-86 exchange (RAF fighters not deployed to Korean War)
1960s 1xC130 bagged by a Javelin and a manoeuvre kill against a MiG17 by a Hunter - all hushed up due to politics
1970s - RAF pilot bags Yemeni MiG - hushed for politics (some of the Yemeni stories were only finally revealed in the press in Jun 11 by the Telegraph)
1970s - Lightning allegedly bagged an unmanned Harrier
1982- RAF pilots on exchange with the RN bagged some Argies
1982 - F4 bagged a Jaguar by mistake
1991 - Mudmovers bag a bunch of Iraqi aircraft on the ground - including a JP233 round that bagged a MiG on take off

Nothing in the past 20 years, but then there hasn't been a British air-air kill since then.

LJ

[izod tester]

Its a bit difficult to shoot down anything if there are no targets and the ROE prevented shooting down any of the numerous attempted incursions of UK airspace by the Soviets during the cold war. They were all intercepted though.

There were, however, numerous RAF aircrew who lost their lives practicing such things as low level intercepts at night. It might be nice if, during the RN sniping at the RAF, that the snipers took note of the human cost over the years. I also remember that the FAA lost lots of pilots over the years too.

[sooms]

A Luftwaffe pilot who I worked with at TTTE many years ago told me that his USAF Instructor on the F104 had shot down a B52 in a 104 by accident- may be B******T though.

Said USAF Pilot apparently became a Shuttle Astronaut according to him.

[dakkg651]

ratpackgreenprat

Hasn't it occured to you that spending all that money to maintain a viable defence actually worked in preventing a major conflict.

That is why people like you are still free to post such drivel.

And as for bastardising Churchwellian quotations :=

[Tourist]

Leon

Yes, and I shagged Brigitte Bardot live on stage at the Palladium, but it was hushed up for political reasons.........:rolleyes:

[Engines]

Leon and others,

Oh no, not this one again? RAF kills since WW2? Why so sensitive? Yes, I've heard from well informed historians about the 40s Spitfire kills. After that, the rest are by RAF pilots serving in others' aircraft, or own goals. The ones 'hushed up by politics' - go on, prove them.

That results in a pretty low total. Compared to say, for instance, the Fleet Air Arm, not many really. The main reason - most of the wars we have got involved in since WW2 have been in places that the RAF fighters have not been able to get to for some time.

Why can't we agree - the definition of an 'RAF' kill is an RAF aircraft, pilot of any stripe or uniform (after all, we don't try to divide up Battle of Britain kills by pilot service, do we?) under RAF command shooting down an enemy aircraft.

I know Dave Morgan well, and he would be the last person in the world to claim his Falklands kills as 'RAF'.

Izod tester, I know about the 'human cost'. Slightly miffed you chose to bring that one up that way. I'm not 'sniping' - as ever, I'm trying to stay with the facts. If you want to know what does get me seeing red, it's when senior RAF officers claim on TV that the RAF has shot down aircraft when they haven't.
There were plenty of targets in Korea and the Falklands - and the ROE let the FAA shoot them down. Just because the RAF wasn't there doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Best Regards as ever,

Engines

[Biggus]

ratpackgreenslug,

We haven't fired a SLBM at a genuine target since they came into service - I guess that means your quote:

"Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little."

applies equally to the money spent on the "few" boats of the SSBN fleet.

Are you suggesting we scrap the SSBNs, or just fire a few missiles at someone to make the money spent so far more appear more worthwhile? :=
















There is more to the RN than SSBNs, and more to the RAF than just air defence, and just because neither have been used extensively it doesn't mean they should be done away with.....and by the way, the RAF air defence assets are being done away with, slice by slice.....and no, I'm not an air defender, nor am I on SSBNs, but that doesn't mean I'm not able to appreciate the role they carry out!!




Tourist - how was Bridget, you lucky sod? I must admit, in my youth, I was more interested in Raquel......

[NutherA2]

LEON.........

1960s 1xC130 bagged by a Javelin and a manoeuvre kill against a MiG17 by a Hunter - all hushed up due to politicsThis old chestnut has been suggested before, but does anyone have any shred of evidence to support the claim? I flew Javelins with 60 Sqn from 1963 until 1966 and am quite unaware of any engagement of an Indonesian C130 by any of our (or 64 Sqn) aircraft at any time. We were regularly involved in ADIZ scrambles and border patrols over Malaya and Borneo, but never found a target to intercept; the Indonesian ground troops, however, shot down one of their own C130s on the Borneo border. In December 1964 there was an incursion by 2 Hercules dropping paratroops at Labis, Malaya, but we were not scrambled to intercept; it was rumoured that Gombak GCI had detected the incoming, but had not reacted "for sensitive political reasons". It was also rumoured that the Indonesians had launched 3 aircraft but that one was lost, probably having flown into the sea. Suggestions may have been leaked to Djakarta that we had in fact shot this one down. The following night Gombak got quite excited over a possible radar target nd this time I was scrambled, but nothing came of it.

Similarly, had a 20 Sqn Hunter found a Mig I am quite sure we would have heard all about it. These "kills" are simply a fairy tale.

Back to the F104 thread, there was, I believe, a Starfighter that shot itself down in the early days; it apparently accelerated during Vulcan cannon firing trials and caught up with its own shells!

[skwinty]

A Luftwaffe pilot who I worked with at TTTE many years ago told me that his USAF Instructor on the F104 had shot down a B52 in a 104 by accident- may be B******T though.

Said USAF Pilot apparently became a Shuttle Astronaut according to him.


No one is supposed to be able to shoot down the mighty B-52 Stratofortress bomber. But on April 7, 1961, someone did. On that date, an F-100 Super Sabre of the New Mexico Air National Guard shot down a B-52 with a Sidewinder missile.

Perhaps he was referring to this incident?

[NutLoose]

Tourist

Leon

Yes, and I shagged Brigitte Bardot live on stage at the Palladium, but it was hushed up for political reasons.........:rolleyes:

Jeez Tourist, you need to visit specsavers.....are you sure it wasn't just hushed up for good taste? She is well past her sell by date.....


http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYNJPZ2L0DGUGYMFYZG90UGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgBrigitte%20Bardot1.jpg

[langleybaston]

"To slightly misquote Churchill: Never, in the history of defence spending, has so much been spent on so few to achieve such little".

Never heard of deterence, then?

Perhaps my 41 years supplying Met. to the RAF were totally wasted.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

ORAC. Thanks for posting that info.

In your bottom para it says that the 1967 Taiwan Straits incident was "the first 104 combat victory". So can we discount the 1965 stuff posted above it as 'probable' or disputed?

Is the claim for the two MiG-19s confirmed?

I only posted because I've never read anything, anywhere about the 104 scoring an air to air kill.

Well, unless you count the downing of the XB-70. :uhoh:


NutherA2. I think it was 'Corky' Meyer who shot himself down while testing the Grumman Tiger.

[Tourist]

Don't be so picky!

I've had worse.....

As I like to remember her.........

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp121/Tourist_photos/BB.jpg

[sooms]

Skwinty..

You are correct, just googled it. It was indeed an F100.

[Kluseau]

Never mind the Starfighter. Since WWII, has the RAF ever shot anything down? Own goals excluded (of course).


This was fairly comprehensively discussed on PPRuNe back in 2004: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/154569-last-raf-kill.html

[foldingwings]

I seem to recall from the early 70s that a German Air Force Starfighter was scrambled to shoot down a pilotless (he'd Martin-Bakered) Harrier before it crossed the IGB and crashed in East Germany. Don't think he ever had to pull the trigger though as the GR3 hit the deck west of the Iron Curtain but in the ADIZ!

Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Foldie:(

[Archimedes]

Foldie - no,memory's fine, just your searching of the linked thread above which has let you down ;) (the reference below is from p3 of said thread).
http://www.pprune.org/1640468-post42.html

[foldingwings]

Thanks, Archimedes, old chap! Actually, I didn't look at the thread above as its title would suggest that it was the RAF (attempting) to do the killing rather than the GAF about to shoot down a Harrier!

Hey ho! Don't assume, check!

Foldie:ok:

[NutherA2]

BarbiesBoyFriend,

I think it was 'Corky' Meyer who shot himself down while testing the Grumman Tiger. Thanks for that, the story I believed for years must have been a mix of that and this:=


The cannon tests ran into snags: on 17 December 1954, Levier tried to fire a burst at high altitude and was rewarded with an explosion. The engine began running rough and Levier shut it down, gliding 80 kilometers (50 miles) to put the machine down safely. As it turned out, a 20 millimeter cartridge had exploded while being fired, blowing off the back of the cannon and sending it through the section of the aircraft behind it. In a sense, the XF-104 had shot itself down.
The aircraft was repaired and returned to flight test. However, on 14 April 1955 Lockheed test pilot Herman R. "Fish" Salmon was performing cannon tests, setting up vibrations so severe that they blew off the ejection seat door in the bottom of the cockpit. The cockpit depressurized and Salmon's pressure suit puffed up so much that he couldn't see what was going on. Had he understood the problem he could have gone to low altitude, equalizing the pressure and allowing him to get things under control, but he had no real idea of what had gone wrong and decided to eject, coming to earth safely. Of course, the second prototype cratered into the ground and was destroyed. An F-94C Starfire interceptor was modified to complete the armament tests.

[jindabyne]

Hey ho! Don't assume, check!

Which is what I hope you'll do in Dec - Black Grouse, one of!

[Archimedes]

I think it was Tom Attridge who shot himself down in the F11F - Corky Meyer refers to it in his book, if I recall.

And there was the case of the F-14 which shot itself down as well:

oops! (http://www.ejectionsite.com/F-14%20SHOOTDOWN.pdf)


(edit - if I'd actually re-read this link, I might have recalled that it mentions Tom Attridge and the F11F incident. :ouch:)

Getting back to the PAF 104s, you might find this (http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/ac/f104.html) of interest, BBF.

[Lima Juliet]

Conspiracy theories or not, all sometimes is not as it appears - even 26 years later...

RAF pilots carried out secret raids in Yemen
RAF pilots carried out unauthorised attacks deep inside Yemen in the 1970s without the advance knowledge of political masters in London, a new book has disclosed.


RAF pilots carried out secret raids in Yemen - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/8571133/RAF-pilots-carried-out-secret-raids-in-Yemen.html)

Now is that Elvis at the front door, or is he still in Area 51? :}

LJ

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Archimedes.

Thanks. Looks highly likely that the PAF scored some kills with their 104s.:ok:

Of course you're also correct about it being Tom Attridge in the Tiger. I was reading a book Meyer had written about the F-11 and had overlooked it not being him. Ta again.;)

[jindabyne]

Leon

Yes, we all know about Bill Stoker et al, but the guys were 'on loan' to the Sultan. It wasn't the 'RAF' that did the deeds, which is what, I think, we're talking of in this context. And there was no air-to-air.