Unions not the only ones unhappy with Qantas management

[Talkwrench]

Interesting story in The Australian today about the Australian Shareholders Association's position regarding Qantas AGM

Shareholders, unions target Qantas executive pay | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/shareholders-unions-target-qantas-executive-pay/story-fn91v9q3-1226157580247)

[1a sound asleep]

DEATH threats have been made against Qantas CEO Alan Joyce and other senior executives in what appears to be linked to the ugly union dispute enveloping the airline.

Read more: Guards for Qantas boss Alan Joyce after death threats | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/guards-for-qantas-boss-alan-joyce-aftre-death-threats/story-e6frfq80-1226158582460#ixzz1Zp8k6PUm)


Death threats are definitely going too far. But maybe somebody could take this ******* filthy little weasel and buy him a one way NO return allowed ticket to Dublin. How the filthy board at Qantas can allow such a pathetic excuse for a CEO to earn such a filthy amount of cash out of our National Carrier makes me ill

[600ft-lb]

Seems as though he's getting more then he signed up for..... after all it was only supposed to be a few years at the helm, $12million/year pay packets then onto the next public company.

But yes, if it's true, this is going too far.

[Marauder]

I agree death threats are over the top.

But given Olivia and Alan's accuracy with the truth recently were they really threats?

Also there are a lot of pi$$ed off shareholders, years of no dividends shares worth less than 1/4 of what they paid.

[stubby jumbo]

Agree Death Threats / letters to home or property damage is totally unacceptable.

.......BUT

I seem to remember "a certain Qantas Exec" referring to "some staff Qantas members" behaviour as KAMIKAZE.

This sort of bullying / threatening language is also unacceptable.

[adsyj]

Totally unacceptable. I really hope none of it happened otherwise we have lost the public in one hit.

In saying that management have shown a willingness to bend the truth to suit there agenda.

If management were even one tenth as keen to manage the airline as they are the media then maybe we wouldn't be in this battle to start with.

I know some of you don't agree and emotions are running high but we have to play the ball not the man or woman. Otherwise we will all be tainted and that helps nobody.

I saw this coming when management spoon fed an article to the media recently which was heavily critical and quite nasty regards Steve Purvinas and the tactics allegedly being used by the Lames.

Our claims (all unions) are valid and just, we as a group of employees just have to keep plugging away. Let us hope sanity prevails and we get the support we need from major shareholders, institutions and the governmenent. What has been alleged by Qantas puts us behind the eight ball.

We must fight to the end but lets use the weapons we have, unbelievably loyal and committed staff and leave the bully boy stuff (if it happened at all) to the real bully boys (management) and continue to expose our current board and executive as incompetent.

We have to keep playing it smart and maintain the rage in the proper form.

[mates rates]

This is the oldest trick in the book.When the company executives are losing the PR war they cry threats.The newspapers and TV channels are happy to publish the sensationalism because it sells newspapers and attracts viewers.It's much harder to disown these threats than to make them.It shows desperate times for Qantas management.

[Barry Mundy]

I do not condone threats of any nature in this regard. Being ex defence i know that living in an environment where you feel unsafe is a very worrying predicament.

However i could be a dummy but where is the death threat in the words released to the public i.e. It's coming soon Paddy. You can't even see it"
Doesnt this relate to the AGM and the notice of no confidence and a possible removal as CEO.

Also the "All your evil plans ... will come back to you very swiftly, & kick you (sic) Irish FOREIGN ARSE out of the country." doesnt infer a death threat.

Is this company now struggling to get a hold of anything to turn against its workers.

On Sunrise this morning OW stated that it was straight out of the American Union playbook that the unions were now using. Can i ask how they believe that a union is involved in this?

This is getting very messy and level heads needed.

[Angle of Attack]

The QF Management know they have lost the PR war so its just another dirty trick they are playing to try and turn public opinion against the unions, it will be in the news for a few days then dissapear, then they realise they are still losing big time! Bring on the AGM thats going to be interesting!

[Worrals in the wilds]

Even if there was a genuine nasty letter...anyone can write a nasty letter. Doesn't have to been written by an employee, a union member or even an aviation worker. Given the level of media attention around Qantas at the moment, they could have been from a crack pot with no connection to the company.

Accusing the unions of supporting or driving this kind of thing could be seen as defamatory. I assume Qantas management don't have any evidence of this or they would have proudly waved it around on Qantas Today, sorry...Sunrise.

[fl610]

Yes Staysharp, do you remember standing up in the IRC and telling everyone about the disgraceful behaviour of your locked out employees? Skinned dog in the employee carpark etc. Still waiting to see the evidence of that one! (Not holding my breath!)

I know most of you lot think that most of us former employees from that year are a bunch of worn out old wankerrs,:E however chaps and chapesses, be careful out there as these clowns will stop at nothing to ensure that their version of the truth is the one that makes the headlines.

I do hope that you have more up your sleeves other than wearing red ties to work!:eek:

[Ka.Boom]

While we all agree that death threats are unacceptable it should be remembered that management have been threatening and intimidating the Qantas workforce for years.
Joyce is concerned about this behaviour now its happening to management.Its about time he sat in on a few KPI reviews to see first hand how shop floor employees are treated.

[ohallen]

Having AJ sit in on anything would be a complete waste of time because he doesn't care and the minions are merely doing what they are either told or encouraged to do.

There is an interesting guy doing the rounds of the ABC at the moment sprouting a book on psychopaths and hearing him talk about how they operate, it sounded liked the Rat Rule book.

The most interesting aspect was the way the model talked about management of subordinates by instilled fear and how the particular environments are created to gather like minded people so they can be managed to the desired outcome which was often delusion in intent.

[stubby jumbo]

Maybe this is the book you are referring to(nothing more to say):

"All that year the animals worked like slaves. But they were happy in their work; they grudged no effort or sacrifice, well aware that everything they did was for the benefit of themselves and those of their kind who would come after them, and not for a pack of idle, thieving human beings."
- George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 6

[Ticking Timebomb]

Engagement survey points to 35,000 suspects, not just union members ? No one is happy out there.

Another management PR stunt me thinks. Front page of the Sydney Telegraph has a smiling joyce on front cover. Doesn't look like someone who's had death threats to me. I'm sure if its true his mate Murdoch knows who it was after reviewing the phone taps.

Strangely enough 2UE smashed Qantas management on radio this morning for making this public and said was obviously a PR stunt to draw attention away from a failing management team and the real issues. OUCH !

Obviously they missed someone when handing out the chairmans lounge memberships over there.

Then there was poor old Olivia on TV, sorry can't type anymore too busy laughing ! What an embarrassment.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Or this one...:}
Proposed Revision | APA DSM-5 (http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=438)

ANTISOCIAL/ PSYCHOPATHIC PERSONALITY DISORDER TYPE WITH MATCHING AND TRAITS
Individuals who match this personality disorder type are arrogant and self-centered, and feel privileged and entitled. They have a grandiose, exaggerated sense of self-importance and they are primarily motivated by self-serving goals. They seek power over others and will manipulate, exploit, deceive, con, or otherwise take advantage of others, in order to inflict harm or to achieve their goals. They are callous and have little empathy for others’ needs or feelings unless they coincide with their own. They show disregard for the rights, property, or safety of others and experience little or no remorse or guilt if they cause any harm or injury to others. They may act aggressively or sadistically toward others in pursuit of their personal agendas and appear to derive pleasure or satisfaction from humiliating, demeaning dominating, or hurting others. They also have the capacity for superficial charm and ingratiation when it suits their purposes. They profess and demonstrate minimal investment in conventional moral principles and they tend to disavow responsibility for their actions and to blame others for their own failures and shortcomings.

[600ft-lb]

Steve makes a good point
Qantas death threats could be made up: union | Alan Joyce (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-death-threats-could-be-made-up-union-20111005-1l7ud.html)
‘‘If I’ve received a death threat, and I’ve advised the people that it is likely to have come from that that behaviour’s unacceptable, I’ll put it in the hands of police,’’ he said. ‘‘I think it’s then a very strange step for him to have taken, to have then gone public with it as well.
‘‘I think he should have left it in the hands of police and allowed them to investigate and informed his staff members, which he’d done, but it looks a little bit fishy from our perspective the fact that he’s then had it splashed on the front page of newspapers.’’
A Qantas spokesman said he was ‘‘not going to dignify’’ Mr Purvinas’ comments with a response.But at least now a Qantas spokesman has found a subject to have dignity about.

[ampclamp]

Was the letter signed by someone personally?
Perhaps a pseudonym like I'm a grubby unionist?

Fair dinkum it could be from any crackpot nationalist with nothing to do with the IR war.

AJ just wants the public to jump to what appears to be a logical conclusion in the PR battle.

Could even be a stitch up by other vested interests. Anyway, let the police deal with it. I note the TWU guy has released threats made to their people too. Disgrace all round.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Have the coppers released a statement at all? There's not a lot of credibility to any of this without something from them.
I still don't see any threat to kill in the published letter.

[600ft-lb]

Qantas claims unions involved in a pay dispute are behind death threats sent to executives | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-claims-unions-involved-in-a-pay-dispute-are-behind-death-threats-sent-to-executives/story-e6frg95x-1226158994199)

Another one, almost media watch worthy.

Qantas claims unions involved in a pay dispute are behind death threats sent to executives



by: Steve Creedy
From: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/)
October 05, 2011 11:08AM


Although Mr Joyce, who has received one of the threatening letters, does not believe union officials are responsible, he says the tone of negotiations needs to be "more conciliatory and less aggressive"."I absolutely believe that they are calling on their members ... and anybody out there that this is the wrong behaviour and cannot be tolerated," Mr Joyce told Fairfax Radio in Melbourne.
He said both sides of the dispute needed to be more sensible.
"We've asked the union leaders, we've asked all of our people to make sure that the tone is a lot more sensible than it has been," he said.
1) So the headline is a complete lie, does not represent the actual article.
2) Alan Joyce admits his team's tone has not sensible and needs to be more sensible.

It's a given that industrial thugs like the AIPA and the ALAEA are totally insensible, all they do is fly aircraft full of people and maintain aircraft full of people. But to admit the Qantas side full of poorly remunerated corporate battlers hasn't been sensible. I'm at a total loss for words.

[Cactusjack]

boofu#kinghoo. Seriously. This bloke has been screwing the lives of thousands of workers, thousands of share holders and he has the nerve to finger unions?? Even half the Australian public think he is little toad and he should pi#s of back to Ireland. You also have the opportunists who are totally unrelated to this mess and may be psychologicaly unstable and are joining the fracus by committing acts of mischief just for fun ?

I know I will get bagged for saying this but 'good, who cares'. Let them feel what it is like to have security and safety uncertainty thrust upon you. Let them have the sleepless nights, fear of the unknown and loss of life's enjoyment while clouds hang over your head.
I am not provoking or encouraging such acts, but I have no empathy for the execs and nor could I give a flying f#ck. This is what can happen when you play in the big sandpit and out of sheer greed screw tens of thousands of people. Doesn't this fool realize that you can only push people so far before society revolts, and he is copping a taste of that.
It is amazing that when their comfort zone is threatened, their moral rights are interfered with and their rights to go about daily business taking care of family, friends and future are threatened they cry foul.

No doubt his 'security protection unit' are linked to friends or a family business and getting paid massive dollars? Maybe there is a KPI bonus for the amount of guards each exec hires?

[Pinky the pilot]

There's not a lot of credibility to any of this without something from them.

My thinking also Worrels. (How are ya, BTW?) Also, having read the newspaper article which quoted the supposed threatening letter, under the heading 'Death Threat...' I fail to see where any such threat was made, inferred or otherwise.

Something just doesn't smell right about this incident.:hmm:

[What The]

Is the International part of the business paying for the security guards?

[Fris B. Fairing]

Was it really a death threat or did he just fall off his skateboard?

[packrat]

He fell off his stilettos

[buttmonkey1]

this snippet from aap stock market news...

QAN - QANTAS AIRWAYS LTD - steady at $1.375
The aircraft engineers' union has questioned the authenticity of death threats
sent to senior management at national carrier Qantas, suggesting they may
have been concocted to garner public sympathy.

[Angle of Attack]

BOOM!

Their little stunt already has them on the back foot only a day after they came up with this little stunt! Any Joe Bloe knows if there were credible death threats they would not have come out in public like this before the police investigation was finished! GOLD!

[TIMA9X]

if there were credible death threats they would not have come out in public like this before the police investigation was finished! GOLD! It appears so, reading between the lines,

‘‘I absolutely believe that they are calling on their members ... and anybody out there that this is the wrong behaviour and cannot be tolerated,’’ Mr Joyce told Fairfax Radio.
Ms Wirth, who has also received the threatening letters, told the Seven Network unions were resorting to US-style intimidation.
"They're personally attacking management, it's one of those ways you can try and influence the outcomes of the industrial dispute - it's very unhelpful

Read more: Death threats: Qantas pay spat heightens | Transport Workers Union (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/death-threats-as-qantas-pay-spat-heightens-20111005-1l7t9.html#ixzz1Zt3KViFC)
The use of plural "They are" and "They're personally attacking" Does smell a bit rich and deliberately skewed to implicate or target the unions. Trust they have evidence for this...also the story was leaked to the Daily Telegraph first who love this kind of stuff....

Guards for Qantas boss Alan Joyce after death threats | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/guards-for-qantas-boss-alan-joyce-aftre-death-threats/comments-e6freuy9-1226158475079)

I am now curious to find out on what basis AJ & OW could come up with this assumption.. Already the story has dropped out of the main headlines at the smh.

[bandit2]

It's interesting to note, that there has been no bulletin or such put on the QF Intranet home page regarding these threats! Now all of of a sudden AJ's had a brain wave & asked the QF security to look into the threats? Wouldn't they be your first phone call after receiving the letters! During most investigations the authorities prefer to keep the news out of the press eg: Front pages of news papers, no Kochie etc.

If people are faced with redundancy, emotions do run high. Especially if you have a family, mortgage, bills etc. Not all of us are on $5 million per year & when someone on $5 million a year tells you a 3% payrise is too much. I know I get pissed off.

[neville_nobody]

Not all of us are on $5 million per year & when someone on $5 million a year tells you a 3% payrise is too much. I know I get pissed off.

Especially when his was 70% with the shareprice at record lows.

If these threats were made up by Joyce then it would be a pretty low act on his behalf and a sign of desperation.

[VR-HFX]

AF 447 springs to mind after reading this thread. This time it's not one airframe but the whole train set.

[SimonBl]

When I read this today, I wondered both "Where's the threat in that?" and "Wonder if it's made up to make the unions look bad?". Looks like I'm not alone on both fronts :)

I, too, agree that it's probably backfired if it was made up.

[QFBUSBOY]

I imagine most employees would have completed the Safety & Security exercise as part of their ongoing training.I seem to remember a part in there about how the company receives threats almost on a daily basis, which are evaluated by Corporate Security.Having just heard on the news that these threats were allegedly made in May, it seems strange that now 5 months later, AJ has gone public, and has asked the police to investigate.

I only half believed that threats were made when I first heard about them, and now I am absolutely sure in my mind that the alleged threats are no more than the rant of the normal,everyday crack smokers who make threats against Qantas daily.

To blame those members of his staff, some of whom may be union members, is absolutely despicable.

[600ft-lb]

When I read this today, I wondered both "Where's the threat in that?"
That's just the point and they know it. People don't read past the headline. Their minds are made up within the first 20 words.

Steve Creedy even published the article today on The Australian website saying
Qantas claims unions involved in a pay dispute are behind death threats sent to executives

yet the article explicitly states the complete opposite

Although Mr Joyce, who has received one of the threatening letters, does not believe union officials are responsible

Mr Joyce does not believe union officials are responsible.

And where is the content of the supposed "Death Threat" ?

There is none, yet you read the comments sections and everyone is talking about thug unions being evil etc. People's minds are made up in the first 10 seconds when it comes to print media.

Qantas knows this, their PR firm of choice, owned by GD's mate, know this, Qantas pays good money to these guys to put their point of view across.

I don't know where supposed journalists get off, publishing headlines that are misleading at best to the content of the article.

Especially when News Ltd. code of ethics seems to not apply at times when Qantas is involved.

For Info
Professional Conduct Policy | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/help/editorial-code-of-conduct)
1. Accuracy
1.1 Facts must be reported impartially, accurately and with integrity.

1.2 Clear distinction must be made between fact, conjecture and comment.
1.3 Try always to tell all sides of the story in any kind of dispute.
1.4 Do not knowingly withhold or suppress essential facts.


15. Personal gain
15.1 Employees must not request or accept any money, travel, goods, discounts, entertainment or inducements of any kind outside the normal scope of business hospitality.


I'd love to see the Chairman Club membership list.

[Worrals in the wilds]

There is none, yet you read the comments sections and everyone is talking about thug unions being evil etc. People's minds are made up in the first 10 seconds when it comes to print media.


Exactly. However, now the talkback radio audience are getting elderly and infirm, newspaper website comment sections have become the new crackpot rant outlet of choice. Even though they are published (online) by newspapers there seems to be little if any editorial control, so they're free game for anyone with a soapbox and an internet connection. After reading a lot of them from several papers about various issues I don't believe that the comments sections on these sites are ever an accurate representation of nationwide opinion.

Having watched 10, 7 and ABC coverage of this issue, I think they were all fairly cautious in their reporting compared to the initial Telegraph report. Lots about "Qantas claim..." and not too much in the way of absolutes. I could be wrong, but my impression was they were a bit sceptical.

...the company receives threats almost on a daily basis, which are evaluated by Corporate Security.

Most companies do. Banks and unpopular public service departments like Centrelink and the ATO receive absolutely dreadful threats on a daily basis. That's not to condone the practice, but it's hardly unusual.

(G'day Pinky, btw. Hope you're well too)!

[TIMA9X]

Having watched 10, 7 and ABC coverage of this issue, I think they were all fairly cautious in their reporting compared to the initial Telegraph report. Lots about "Qantas claim..." and not too much in the way of absolutes. I could be wrong, but my impression was they were a bit sceptical.

It appears to me as well the television networks played it down the middle as the day went on..

For those who missed it, the ABC news tonight..

ZEIUEuNsLiM

I smell a rat.

[QF94]

Is the International part of the business paying for the security guards?

The International part of the business is paying for the rest of the business. That's why it's "bleeding red ink" as was reported in an article today.

For a company that "only" made $500million and has to shed international routes to remain viable while other airlines, including Virgin Australia are expanding at the same rate QF International is contracting makes me wonder and should be making others wonder also.

Nick Xenaphon was chasing up the cost shifting of Jetstar costs onto QF. Hopefully this has the momentum to keep going and expose what is really going on. Jetstar as a standalone entity would fail before long without bleeding QF International.

As for the alleged death threats in today's papers, we can call AJ, OW and the remainder of the executive board all sorts of names, but why? If the employees can band together as a united group and force their hand, we stand a much better chance. Until then, the agenda is set and we are well along the path they have made for themsleves and us.

Let's not get caught up in the media hype. If the management don't get the reaction they're after, they look the fools. Not us.

Disregard what is reported in The Telegraph. Their owner is being investigated for their own wrongdoings, and it is only a glorified tabloid at best.

[TIMA9X]

If the management don't get the reaction they're after, they look the fools. Not us.yep starting to already..

No respite in Qantas war of words (http://www.smh.com.au/national/no-respite-in-qantas-war-of-words-20111005-1l9no.html)
A RESOLUTION to a bitter industrial relations battle between Qantas and key unions is further away after the two sides traded barbs over the decision to publicly reveal allegations of threats against executives.
Unions have condemned alleged threats made to Qantas managers, including the chief executive, Alan Joyce, and other staff but two officials have questioned whether the airing of the allegations was part of a public relations campaign by the airline aimed at winning public support.
''This is either a serious allegation or a serious fraud by the company,'' the Transport Workers Union's national secretary, Tony Sheldon, said yesterday.

Mr Joyce, who had received an explicit death threat, refuted the suggestions it was part of a ''PR stunt'', saying he had decided to inform its 35,000-strong workforce because of the threat to their safety.
Qantas passengers face further disruptions to flights tomorrow when baggage handlers and other ground crew will strike for two hours. The airline's licensed aircraft engineers will also stop work for four hours on Monday in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
The unions representing pilots, engineers and ground staff have been locked in a bitter battle with management for months over inserting job-security clauses into new wage contracts.
The police said the author of a threatening letter sent to a senior Qantas executive in May had been identified.



What, back in May? old news revamped :confused:

[Flying Spag Monster]

he had decided to inform its 35,000-strong workforce because of the threat to their safety

Gee he does care about you guys, took him 5 months to tell you of the danger....

[Dockie]

And just remember there are no double standards at Qantas!!!!!!