ATSA Overtime at PC

[Rocket_Science]

With so many disappointed applicants to the latest Hard Rostered Overtime Agreement, why has so many offers of tactical overtime texts gone out today?

Surely, staff won't buy the excuse that management could not foresee the requirement. Open your eyes! They have "bought" less than they require on a forecast that there will be the usual pension raising element filling the gaps. We are told the "budget" is exhausted yet ATCOs will be getting £800 per attendance!

Can anyone explain why PCS did not negotiate a per attendance allowance (£100 - £150)?

OUR UNION IS LETTING US DOWN.

[ZOOKER]

The figure you quote for ATCOs, £800 per attendance, presumably that is before tax?

[Rocket_Science]

The figure you quote for ATCOs, £800 per attendance, presumably that is before tax?

FFS YES!!! And so is the meagre £100 - £150 per attendance I mentioned for ATSAs. But as you want all of the cake, that is why everyone else suffers...or haven't you noticed!

[FUNKYATCO]

we negotiate our cake, something that your negotiating team haven't the first f##king clue about

[Rocket_Science]

we negotiate our cake

"our cake"...just about sums it up.

[Air.Farce.1]

PCS need stronger reps who are not so "close to management" . Union rep promotion has been endemic for years. When local reps dream up new posts and promotions, write the job description which is beefed up and embellished to warrant more dosh and then apply for these posts and get them........ :suspect:

Of course it could just be pure coincidence that the negotiating team have all been promoted recently :D

You will need to have a vote of no confidence in your local reps, stand up and be counted !

[Geffen]

Just guessing, but surely the ATCO hard rostered agreement includes a TOIL with the ability to sell it back, hence the £800. Does the ATSA agreement include TOIL?

[BDiONU]

Of course it could just be pure coincidence that the negotiating team have all been promoted recently :D
Or, just possibly, that these people have demonstrated that they're pro active and willing to dig in and get their hands dirty. Which is something which tends to get you promoted faster than sitting on your hands whinging :ok:

BD

[Air.Farce.1]

I would stick to EFD Mr BD, you are out of your depth here, come to think of out you are drowning in EFD :ok:

[Ceannairceach]

PCS members have only themselves to blame - not the negotiating team.

The result of the second PCS pay ballot was around 80% in favour of accepting the deal. So it's the membership who capitulated, as well as the upper echelons of the union (quite a few of whom are based at PC, appropriately enough).

That was the time to stand up and be counted. And that was the time to moisten any well-dried powder. Once EFD comes in and we're into a surplus situation any "power" once held at PC by that trade group will be long gone.

With regard to overtime all the company have to do is waft a bit of cash in front of noses and they get whatever they want. This is proven by the number of people who seemingly applied for the latest hard rostered overtime tranche despite constantly saying to anyone who'd listen on sector that they weren't going to apply for any. And by the number of people I still see around the place doing tactical shifts.

So, if you ask me, the ATSAs have only got themselves to blame I'm afraid.

And in the long run, that, and their fanatical worship of the early go - will be their undoing.

[DC10RealMan]

RS.

I think that you will find that in both the CAA and NATS ATSAs have always been regarded as second class employees.

[Rocket_Science]

Or, just possibly, that these people have demonstrated that they're pro active and willing to dig in and get their hands dirty

BD...you have not obviously been introduced to some of the ATSA leadership team at PC then.

So, if you ask me, the ATSAs have only got themselves to blame I'm afraid.

CCeach... You're partly correct, but I would argue that people are led and PCS have got their objectives all wrong.

I think that you will find that in both the CAA and NATS ATSAs have always been regarded as second class employees.

Correct. But there are those that strive to better themselves but get tarred with the same brush as the newspaper reading bunch.

You will need to have a vote of no confidence in your local reps, stand up and be counted !

Now that is thought of the day!!!

[Ceannairceach]

RS, I agree with you about PCS. But instead of people complaining about them, now is the time to act.

If you're not happy with the way your reps represent you then replace them with those that will carry forward your collective objectives.

Any union will only ever be as effective as it's membership and it's will.

For me PCS seem to sweat and take issue with the small, local, stuff whilst quite happily taking the management line on the bigger and some would argue, more important issues - when the reverse should be true.

Senior ATSA PCS reps have always had an element of self service about them; a look at what happened to those ex-MACC reps who negotiated lovely redundancy packages for themselves whilst leaving their colleagues moving to PC with pretty much nothing in the form of union support illustrates that perfectly.

Ultimately though, unless those of you that are unhappy with your union colleagues do something about it, in the form of putting your heads above the parapet and committing time and effort to your union, then I'm afraid you RS, and your colleagues shoulder an equal amount of the blame for the current malaise as those with their objectives wrong, as you put it.

Out of interest will you be putting yourself forward as a union rep RS, next time the ballots do the rounds on the unit?

[401167H]

22 years ago, on my first day as an ATSA at LL, I was told about the 'us and them' culture I could expect to encounter; the ineffective ATSA Union (CPSA then, IIRC); the lack of professional 'respect' or acknowledgement from the Mgmt with regards to anything or anyone ATSA-related; the lack of support from the ATCO Union for what were/are supposed to be their working colleagues. This was definitely the case when pay awards were on the agenda, and which always inevitably lead to a two-tier pay award, with the ATSAs receiving the smaller renumeration.

There was also talk of the early-go's on offer (something to which the ATCOs were also party to, I may add); there were the newspaper readers, the can't be ar$ed ATSAs, the Union 'militant' members who always talked a good argument, but rarely placed themselves in the firing line, and the honest, loyal and hard-working ATSAs who tried their best to provide good service and dare I say it, value for money, despite all the obstacles thrown in their way.

Good and bad points on both sides, across all grades. Nobody can lay claim to the moral high ground - everyone was 'in it for what they could get' just like everybody else.

In my time at LL, I found that the single biggest issue (but not the only one) was the persistent reluctance of the ATCO Union representatives to support, deal with, and acknowledge the ATSA Union and its ATSA membership. I do not recall the ATSAs or their Union ever asking the Company or the ATCOs for 'equality' in anything other than the basic percentage pay awards, but despite words of support from some ATCOs, the official and tangible Union support which the 'poor relation' required was never forthcoming.

The rules of taking industrial action are complex, and faced with the threat of dismissal for breach of contract, combined with the lack of support, its hardly surprising that the majority of ATSAs simply accept what's on offer rather than making a stand. There was never a need for Mgmt to employ divide and conquer tactics here - having two Unions representing a single workforce effectively created it without any interference from Mgmt!

and 22 years later, I see (with much regret, but no surprise) that the situation is basically the same as it was on my first day, and on my last.

yes, DC10, 'second class' indeed. And with no hope of a solution whilst the two-Union arrangement exists.

RS - you have my sympathies, but you're banging your head on a brick wall. Without the genuine Union support of the rest of the workforce, PCS cannot mount an effective and meaningful challenge to today's Mgmt policies and arrangements. For most ATSAs, I would expect that just having a job and enduring the two-tier system that is endemic within NATS is better than having no job at all.

[Rocket_Science]

fanatical worship of the early go - will be their undoing.

:ok: Exactly the problem but, the excuse you'll hear is "ATCOs get them". The point they miss is ATCOs are not staring down the barrel of redundancy and, in my mind, compulsory redundancy. Current PCS policy seems to be not to increase the membership, so that jobs will only be lost through natural wastage / voluntary means. WTF! Secure new jobs. Look at current jobs we could be doing and doing a lot cheaper than others. Yes, this may mean treading on a few Prospect toes, but do we not want a secure income through to retirement for ourselves?

why should I worry if the training gets done or not

If I was at your stage in my career, I wouldn't worry at all. But with many years left to run before I get to the sanctuary of retirement I feel there is a need to be a bit more pro-active in securing our collective futures. Being professional and being seen as professionals is the first step in that process. When it comes to new posts being developed, management will have to consider the merits of having a motivated and professionally minded ATSA rather than take another highly paid and skilled ATCO out of the operation.

Out of interest will you be putting yourself forward as a union rep RS, next time the ballots do the rounds on the unit?

Sigh!!! :( I have thought about it...hard, but I am just not what you would call "union material".

[chiglet]

After 12 months or so at Brum, I arrived at Manch Tower.[1969] I was greated by Dave Close, (acting Sup) with the words...."You are on Team B. We work as a Team, so we don't have Watches"

I have had the privelidge [sp] to work with some of Natures finest Gentlemen in my time at Manchester [Airport, PATCRU, Sub Centre, Tower and MACC[ Pete Perry, Les Miller, Alex Stark, Wall Scott in the old days, and latterly Alex Bristow.

I have NEVER been [to my knowledge] treated like a second class citizen.
DC10 would not believe me when I passed on the ethos of Manchester when we met.
Rose tinted spectacles? NO! I have been in Retirement now for just about 20 months. On reflection, would I do it again?

You bet I would.

[401167H]

Chiglet - I can also look back at my first 15 years with CAA/NATS, and despite the two-tier system (and I concur with DC10 - it does exist!) I think 'yep - that was the dog's sphericals'. If it had remained like that then I would never have left. But times change, people change, Companies change, technology changes, and not always all for the better.

I would venture to say that, as ATSAs, you, me, DC10 and a host of others who did 20 years or more and have recently left the arena - we probably saw the best of it. :sad:

Rocket Science - PM for you.

[Ceannairceach]

RS : if you won't stand up for what you believe in, and put the time and effort needed for union work in - then why should anyone else do it for you?

Also, be careful of what you say on a public forum. Your initial post could be interpreted by some as incitement to unofficial industrial action. Be wise and be mindful of the company rules on internet usage and postings :=

[Air.Farce.1]

Does NATS have rules on internet usage? They have rules on intranet usage at work which is totally different.......perhaps someone,( "Moderators") can enlighten us ?

[Geffen]

Air.Farce.1,
NATS released an email to all staff about not bringing the company into disrepute through internet postings. Any negative postings could be taken quite seriously if traced back to the owner. Last year there were reports in the press of other organisations firing staff for postings on web forums, social networking sites etc.

[Air.Farce.1]

Not a lot more we can say then :uhoh:

[BDiONU]

( hence the lack of debate about EFD ).
Lack of debate? Blimey you must have been on a different PPrune to me ;)

BD

[Rocket_Science]

then why should anyone else do it for you?

Because that's what union reps agree to do when they put themselves forward for nomination - represent the membership and the views of the membership.

Also, be careful of what you say on a public forum.

Thanks, point taken and post amended.

[Ceannairceach]

But your union reps aren't doing that RS, are they, according to you?

So vote the current bunch of reps out and vote reps in who will represent you.

A union is a democracy where the majority will have the final say.

[AyrTC]

BD I mean discussion on the reintroduction of EFD.:=
AyrTC