View Full Version : Monitored Approaches
Secret Squirrel
31st May 2001, 19:34
I know this subject has been broached before and my intention is not to start a slagging match. Indeed I have a sensible question regarding this issue.
As some of you know, I work for CFE and we are about to be instructed in the arcane and bizarre monitored approach method of operating our aircraft. Now I have my reservations about the validity of this method but it is, I am told, inevitable and imminent; they pay me to do the job their way and that is the way I shall do it.
My query stems from the fact that I like to hand fly my aircraft raw data as often as I can and only when I consider that it will not put too great a burden on my colleague (i.e. weather's nice, rested and firing on all four hairdryers). So, my question is simple and it is this: do you still have to hand over control at DA to the Non-handling-flying-landing pilot if you are doing a visual approach?
Would appreciate an answer from a BA man/woman, please.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 01 June 2001).]
IMHO, monitored approaches are a good idea. In my company, it doesn't matter who is flying the aircraft up to TOD. Once the decision has been made that a monitored approach will be flown (due to specific weather criteria), the FO either continues to fly, if he is PF, or takes control at TOD and flies the approach down to DA/DH.
At that point the captain will take over and land if he has the required visual cues or call 'nothing seen', at which point the FO will carry out the missed approach, staying on the guages throughout. The idea behind it is that if you're going to lose the plot, it's usually going to happen when you go from guages to visual, especially in crap WX.
I think it's a good system that works well regardless of the length of the sector and has the added bonus that the FO gets to fly more approaches than he/she otherwise would.
Sensible
1st Jun 2001, 11:46
Does this help?:
*** British Airways Flight Operations Department Notice ***
There appears to be some confusion over the new pilot role titles. This notice will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings.
The titles P1, P2 and Co-Pilot will now cease to have any meaning, within the BA operations manuals. They are to be replaced by Handling Pilot, Non-handling Pilot, Handling Landing Pilot, Non-Handling Landing Pilot, Handling Non-Landing Pilot, and Non Handling Non-Landing Pilot.
The Landing Pilot, is initially the Handling Pilot and will handle the take-off and landing except in role reversal when he is the Non-Handling Pilot for taxi until the Handling Non-Landing Pilot, hands the Handling to the Landing Pilot at eighty knots.
The Non-Landing (Non-Handling, since the Landing Pilot is Handling) Pilot reads the checklist to the Handling Pilot until after the Before Descent Checklist completion, when the Handling Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Non-Landing Pilot who then becomes the Handling Non-Landing Pilot.
The Landing Pilot is the Non-Handling Pilot until the "decision altitude" call, when the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Landing Pilot, unless the latter calls "go-around", in which case the Handling Non-Landing Pilot, continues Handling and the Non-Handling Landing Pilot continues non-handling until the next call of "land" or "go-around", as appropriate.
In view of the recent confusion over these rules, it was deemed necessary to restate them clearly.
From PPRuNe Humour.
SS, if you like to hand fly raw data approaches, then the BA monitored approach is just for you. If you are the non handling pilot, the a/c will be handed to you prior to TOD and you can do what you like to put it in a position from where the other guy can land. Normally he'll call visual and take it from you when he sees the airport. Could be 2,500' on a good day or 210' if the weather is down. If it's a good day, just brief and ask to hold it down to minimums.
If it's your sector, then you should be visual when you take control so no more "raw data". The system works very well on a crap day as it saves you the transition from the panel to the world outside close to DH. It's a daft system that must still be followed when it's CAVOK and the non handler flies the autopilot round to 2,000' or so.
Rod
Secret Squirrel
2nd Jun 2001, 01:17
Thanx Chaps/Girls, whatever.
I am aware of what is involved; we do this for CIII & CII approaches also. My problem really arises from the fact that I don't just fly the approach raw data I usually fly it from about 7,000'. At 7,000' I could still be at Timba or even ten miles this side of Kenet. I stress that I do only do it on a clear and gustless day as much because I know my limitations as not to burden my FO.
So, technically speaking I may see the airfield at, say Mayfield, but will soon lose sight of it down wind on radar vectors until they turn me onto base. Even then it may be a hazy day and I might not see the airfield until I am 2-3 miles away.
Thus, if my understanding is correct this is going to be a thing of the past for me.
Some people ask me why I bother; these days in the simulator the AP goes in as soon as the flaps are up and doesn't come out again until they go down. Even then the FDs are in and the AP goes back in for the subsequent exercises. Well, I recently changed seats and one of the exercises involved a loft trip whereby I lost all four generators (two engine driven, APU and a hydraulically powered one) As unlikely as this is, it is nonetheless possible and in any case a mandatory exercise. Without wanting to blow my own trumpet too much I was commended by the training captain for my handling abilitites using a golf ball sized AH, tiny alt, no VS! and an RMI, not to mention no N1 guages. I must admit that the FO was the best I could have wished for and a constant speed reading helped no end. Also, in such cases the FO is really busy running through checklists and whatnot.
Also, in my four years as an FO, I have seen many a captain blanch when whilst flying a manual flight directed appraoch the FD bars disappear. The subsequent roller coaster ride has once led to a go-around.
I heard recently from a BA chappie that the 747 and 777 crews are being rostered an extra day in the sim just for hand flying exercises. It's not so much your reactions and ability that deteriorates, it's your scan. Anyone who has done a raw data and is rusty will know how easily it can all go to pot.
Be honest with yourselves and think, when was the last time you tried levelling out at, say, 2,000' in a turn to intercept, or otherwise, slow down and remember to apply power when required. Let me tell you it is not easy and I ask you to have a go at your earliest opportunity if only to convince yourselves of how your scan can really deteriorate. So, when people ask me why I bother, I say: because I'm crap at it and I need the practice.
You only have to NEED to do it once in your lifetime in an emergency to make the difference between safe and unsafe.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
When I fly a raw data approach - I take the autopilot, autothrottle and F/D off at around 7000' and fly the approach. Configure the aircraft for landing, complete the approach/landing checklist and once that is done then the other guy will land it... I get my landing on the next sector, following his approach.
CCCcccccc......ough
Secret Squirrel
2nd Jun 2001, 01:59
And can you do this even whilst not visual with the airfield?
The reason I ask is because you hear so much crap about peacock pilots who interpret the SOPs in their own ways. In our forum one of our pilots witnessed a very snotty FO who nearly caused a visual approach to turn into a go-around because he wanted to complicate a perfectly straightforward approach in 50k's vis. Apparently the captain had to maintain control all the way to a very nice, safe, stable landing because the FO got himself into a tiz about stability/precision app coupling and wanted to go around for no good reason.
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
Yup, you can fly raw data for the other guys landing provided that the cloudbase is at least 1000' above the decision height. Otherwise its coupled approach time (which is sensible!)
You have probably heard the most awful rumours about the coupled approach, but in reality, it is no worse that a regular approach - You still have to do it as a team, and respect the others worries. If he is not worried. Grin - Time to fly!
CCCcccccc.....ough
.. heard recently from a BA chappie that the 747 and 777 crews are being rostered an extra day in the sim just for hand flying exercises
Not true. Recency for FO's in BA means just sitting in the seat for a sector once a month and a landing once every three months. For Captains, it's a monthly landing. If this is likely to be compromised due leave/sickness etc, then a quick visit to the sim for a recency ride is planned for an hour or so, but certainly there is no "day in the sim hand flying".
Rod