29 Sqn "Phantom" & 392nd ODRAP "Bear" over South Atlantic 1982 [Archive]

Marcantilan

28th Sep 2011, 13:47

Two sides of the story.

On July 11, 1982, Colonel Georgy Bul'bénkov (Soviet Navy, Naval Aviation) was ordered to fly his Tu-95 Bear "D" belonging to the 392 ODRAP from Angola to a certain point in the middle of the Atlantic, near Ascension Island.

His mission was to check any battle damage to carrier HMS Hermes, returning home from the South Atlantic War.

Detecting the carrier, and shortly before flying above it (Hermes was in close company of RFA Tidespring), his plane was intercepted by a FRG.2 "Phantom" of 29 Sqn RAF (XV 484), operating from RAF Wideawake (Sqn Ldr Morle at the controls)

Here are very rare pictures of this obscure fact of the Cold War.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8838/85796578.jpg
Tu-95 crew took this picture.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8778/bear02p.jpg
HMS Broadsword crew took this one.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1964/harrierphantomsenascens.jpg
And here is two of the Phantoms at RAF Wideawake

Regards!

jamesdevice

28th Sep 2011, 19:02

Googling that Russian pilots name brings up a couple of interesting pages

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://basenaval.com/2011/05/sovieticos-en-malvinas/&ei=jmuDTuzUNIGt0QXU2LisAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DColonel%2BGeorgy%2BBul%2527b%25C3%25A9nkov%26hl %3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D6Tf%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns)

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://foros.cerolag.com/f-las-barracas-102/t-sovieticos-en-malvinas-67661.html&ei=jmuDTuzUNIGt0QXU2LisAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDgQ7gEwAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DColonel%2BGeorgy%2BBul%2527b%25C3%25A9nkov%26hl %3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D6Tf%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns)

Interesting Russian anecdotes re the increased use of Bears during the war, how the Russians found some of the Belgrano dead, and the behaviour of the UK fleet towards the Russian spy ship.
If the translation is accurate, it indicates that the Bear teams jumped from flying 200 hours / year, to 100 hours in April alone
"the missions that lasted up to 15 hours without any alternate aerodromes, often having lost radio contact with their base, usually ending in a thousand feet or less near the vertical of the two British aircraft carriers"
Apparently there were six Bear missions to spy on the fleet

wiggy

28th Sep 2011, 19:33

(Sqn Ldr Morle at the controls)

If memory serves me correctly I suspect that's a typo and it's more likely to be Morley........

Marcantilan

28th Sep 2011, 20:11

I wrote the second piece.

A better translation is here: Soviets in Falklands / Malvinas (http://www.rnsubs.co.uk/Community/Forum/index.php?topic=3064.0)

Regarding the first article, six missions are the number that a CIA declassified paper informed. I think the number is wrong, the "Bears" were there almosty three times a week.

Regards!

jamesdevice

29th Sep 2011, 00:40

very intrigued by your suggestion that the Russians were prepared to sink a British submarine if it launched a nuclear attack on Argentina.
Is that just your speculation or do you have proof?

Marcantilan

29th Sep 2011, 02:10

I did not suggest that, I just pointed to a version told me by a credible person from former Soviet submarine circles.

In fact, I pointed that "the version seems ludicrous" Of course, the fact that Mr. Galtieri disclosed to Mr. Haig that he received such offer from the Soviets, and the disclosure of the "Legend" targeting system first real utilization adds a sense of reality of that history.

But just a sense, I still maintain that version is hard to believe.

Regards!

Stu666

29th Sep 2011, 07:40

Marcantilan, interesting reading, thanks.

Your second piece mentions the use of satellites by the Russians. I wondered if you were aware of the book 'GCHQ' by Richard J. Aldrich (2010) which mentions the secret deciphering of Russian satellite intelligence by the Norwegians during the conflict, which was then shared with the British, effectively giving us satellite coverage that we wouldn't otherwise have had?

Marcantilan

29th Sep 2011, 12:22

Hello Stu,

Yes, I learned about that capability from a Norwegian TV show ( Norsk lyttestasjon viktig brikke i Falklandskrigen - Brennpunkt - NRK (http://www.nrk.no/programmer/tv/brennpunkt/1861285.html) , I use a translator...)

However, later I talked with former Soviet army personnel and with a former Polish navy officer and they told me that is unlikely, due to good ciphering and, most important, because all Soviet recon satellites had no radio links with earth stations to transmit gathered information.

Mr. Aldrich´s book gives more info about that?

Regards!

Thud_and_Blunder

29th Sep 2011, 13:12

I enjoyed the bit in the translated account about the Chinooks trying "to damage the masts and aerials" of the surface ship with their downwash - suspect the auth sheet merely reflected 'ruthless wazzing' rather than any more serious intent.

2 TWU

29th Sep 2011, 14:32

Well well, talk about a blast from the past. Thanks very much for the pictures, I have some of the ones we took of the Bears (there were 2 of them) but regret no means of uploading them onto Prune. The F4 crew was indeed Russ Morley & Nige Marks.

Marcantilan

29th Sep 2011, 15:27

Thud:

Look at the Chinook pilot offer at page 55 here: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/documents/Journal%2030%20-%20Seminar%20-%20The%20Falklands%20Campaign.pdf

And "Vulcan 607" (Rowland White) mentions that the offer was accepted...

2 TWU: Could I contact you privately regarding the pics you have?

Regards!

2 TWU

29th Sep 2011, 16:13

Marcantilan, drop me a PM but please be aware I'm away an awful lot over the next couple of weeks.

2 TWU

Marcantilan

1st Oct 2011, 20:08

PM Sent.

Another pic, in this case it looks like a Sea Harrier chasing the Bear.

(From HMS Antrim, copyright Chris Bolton)

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5072/bearandharrier.jpg

Regards!

Marcantilan

3rd Oct 2011, 15:15

More pictures from the same close encounter. Also from the Bear.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2712/392odrap.jpg

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/502/060904170403b.jpg

Regards!

Thud_and_Blunder

3rd Oct 2011, 22:21

Marcantilan,

Apologies for the delay in replying. Thank-you very much for the link, which I had not seen before and thoroughly enjoyed reading; it looks as though a well-known character managed to get himself into the printed record.

SkidMX

7th Oct 2011, 17:31

Blimey,
that is indeed me in the back seat of the F4.

Have just dug several shots of the Bears (there were 2 of them) out of my Ascension Island album - I will scan them & post them here later.

We had early int that the Bear Ds had launched from Luanda & were heading towards the flotilla steaming North from the Falklands.

Russ Morley & myself had just been handed over the Q1 slot. The night Q1 team had been alerted a few hours earlier & were hoping to get scrambled before the handover!

Heading South East from Wideawake I got radar contact at long range at high altitude but descending towards the flotilla.

We completed our intercept & shadowed them down to low level from where the pictures above were taken.

We were also joined if my memory serves me right by a sea harrier launched from Hermes.

Have just checked my logbook, & see we completed a 1:30 hr sortie with no AAR before landing back at Wideawake.

Will get the pictures up here over the weekend.
Skid

McC

8th Oct 2011, 10:58

I was the Q1 pilot who got woken up in the middle of the night and told to expect to be launched. Try getting to sleep after that! Then Morley and Marks breeze in after breakfast and off they go!! :{

More pics from Ascension,

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w70/mcc757/Ascension%20Island%201982/Untitled-6.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w70/mcc757/Ascension%20Island%201982/Untitled-1yty.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w70/mcc757/Ascension%20Island%201982/ASIF41.jpg

Stu666

8th Oct 2011, 13:57

Hello Stu,

Yes, I learned about that capability from a Norwegian TV show ( Norsk lyttestasjon viktig brikke i Falklandskrigen - Brennpunkt - NRK , I use a translator...)

However, later I talked with former Soviet army personnel and with a former Polish navy officer and they told me that is unlikely, due to good ciphering and, most important, because all Soviet recon satellites had no radio links with earth stations to transmit gathered information.

Mr. Aldrich´s book gives more info about that?

Regards!

The book simply states that throughout the conflict the Norwegian signals intelligence base at Fauske regularly intercepted the Soviet satellite intelligence data. It doesn't say how they did it but if what you say about the Soviet satellites having no radio links is correct then one wonders if the satellite intelligence recovered by the Soviets after an overflight was then being transmitted by other means upon which it was compromised?

downsizer

8th Oct 2011, 15:11

What was the Q load on those? 4x9Ls, Sparrows and a SUU?:confused::8

McC

8th Oct 2011, 16:43

4xAim9 G,
4x Skyflash or Sparrow
Gun SUU23
2x wing Tanks

Normal UK Q bird had a CL tank instead of the gun.

SkidMX

8th Oct 2011, 17:05

OK , here we go with some of the pictures taken using the standard 35 mm Pentax camera issued on QRA.
Have a close look at the rear fuselage closeup - looks like they had a rather bigger camera to use!

Skid

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/skidmx/img389.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/skidmx/img388.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/skidmx/img387.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/skidmx/img386.jpg

SkidMX

8th Oct 2011, 17:11

Here's a couple more extracted from my album....

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/skidmx/img391.jpg

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n570/skidmx/img390.jpg

Skid

downsizer

8th Oct 2011, 17:19

Why 9Gs and not 9Ls? Were the Ls not readily available at that time?

McC

8th Oct 2011, 17:46

Nice Pics Skid!

There were some Aim9L missiles around, I think the Navy had most of them. When we deployed to Port Stanley, we acquired some Aim9L and the aircraft had a mix of G and Ls loaded.

SkidMX

8th Oct 2011, 19:39

Ta McC!

Downsizer - the 9Ls were just coming into service & as many as possible were sent further South for use on the Shars.

Whilst the US weren't openly assisting the UK effort I believe the supply chain for more AIM 9Ls ( & a lot of other stuff) was hurried along!

Skid

Green Flash

8th Oct 2011, 20:00

If the Bear driver or crew are in Pprune (or if anyone knows them) it would be great to have their side of the story!

wiggy

8th Oct 2011, 20:37

the 9Ls were just coming into service & as many as possible were sent further South for use on the Shars.

:ok:

Evening gents,

As I recall it I think we went from 9Ls back to 9Gs on the Wattisham wing in the space of 24 hours a few days before the Task Force sailed.....

( even after all this time you guys have the better war stories....:})

SkidMX

8th Oct 2011, 20:48

We've never had a quiff like yours though Wiggy! ;)

McC

8th Oct 2011, 22:00

You can see that the inboard missile is a Aim9L and it's partner is a G.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w70/mcc757/walkround3.jpg

BBadanov

9th Oct 2011, 04:26

Blimey, that is indeed me in the back seat of the F4.

Hiya Nige, so it's "Skid" huh? You never did like "Nigel" LOL :p

Marcantilan

9th Oct 2011, 15:19

Wow, Thanks Skid for the images and info! Now, we have really the two sides of the coin.

You are also the ones that buzzed the Soviet trawler also?

I will try to contact any of the "other party" crewmembers to show here.

Regards!

wiggy

9th Oct 2011, 18:18

Skid/McC

Not wanting to high-jack your splendid thread and also not upset the "your not entitled, you're not in now" brigade I've put some other F-4/Phandet piccies in the History section..............

McC

9th Oct 2011, 20:17

Now look what you've started! Posted some of my own. 30 years!!!!

McC

:{

BSweeper

10th Oct 2011, 14:57

McC et al,

When we first went to Stanley, the standard fit was a single 9L and 3Gs mainly because we hadn't got many and we wanted to have at least one heat missile capable of head/beam attacks. The tricky bit was remembering where it was and cycling through to get at it.

By the way, except for your ability to dress up in strange green clothing with a funny thing on your head, you haven't changed a bit in 30 years.

Hope to see all on 11/11/11.

:ok:CP

APG63

7th Nov 2011, 15:48

C44+4

17,400 lbs of fuel!

APG63

7th Nov 2011, 15:49

Or C44+5 if you got the funny fit.

BEagle

7th Nov 2011, 16:29

There were comfier places from which to snap Boris:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/D.jpg

Taken with my Olympus PEN-FT half-frame with a 150mm lens long before we were given QRA Canons to use on the VC10K!

Chap in the back was quite friendly on that occasion.

Jabba_TG12

8th Nov 2011, 14:03

Some great pics and good anecdotes as well. Nice way to spend an afternoon going down Memory Lane... :):D

Marcantilan

4th Nov 2015, 21:48

A friend of mine find some other pics of the July 11th 1982 encounter, taken from RFA Tidespring:

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z392/lbalbo55/223847_118313811640510_598174234_n.jpg

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z392/lbalbo55/303688_118902861581605_332974497_n.jpg

To XV484 crew, members of this forum!

Best regards,

ORAC

5th Nov 2015, 06:59

Ref post 18 and satellite commas interception.

lEO satellites designed for real time war operations. Data relayed using ground sites, relay satellites and data links. Eminently interceptable, and wouldn't be highly encrypted due to data latency issues for targeting.

SOVIET SATELLITES REPORTED OVER AREA - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/03/world/soviet-satellites-reported-over-area.html)

RORSAT and EORSAT - Staring at the Sea

http://faculty.fordham.edu/siddiqi/writings/p14_siddiqi_jbis_rorsat_1999.pdf

Marcantilan

6th Nov 2015, 20:52

Thanks ORAC. I´ve read that Fauske intercepted data carried by Molniya satellites, which relays data obtained by US-A (RORSAT) and US-P (ELINT) birds.

About this interception, the Sqn report and HMS Hermes log says:

http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx73/AJAB62/bear10_zpsutoq1pzb.jpg

Marcantilan

16th Mar 2019, 20:28

This history in a book (more than deserved!!!) From "A Carrier at Risk" (Helion & Company):

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1798x1348/img_20190316_124350074_hdr_d6ca471561edbd2fdc05a7c71de6a5682 b113dd9.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_20190316_124414836_e8ada227b88164f11ad51fdb318e8182997d0 d1e.jpg

Regards!

k3k3

17th Mar 2019, 00:13

I've just received my copy...

dragartist

17th Mar 2019, 18:33

Thank you Mariano, very well put together. I am sure more will be revealed over time.

Marcantilan

27th May 2020, 19:54

Not related to the south atlantic, or 29 Sqn RAF, but the "Bear-D" (Tu-95RTS) from 392nd ODRAP were always there. Both photos taken from Kipelovo Airbase FB:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1929x655/99424009_3121376147927263_897458305834680320_o_bc7509a6fbc70 e07f752048c36f0f035877c2239.jpg
Royal Navy Phantom FG.1 'R-011' of 892 NAS escorting Tu-95RTs of 392 ODRAP (Kipelovo AFB) over Atlantic. Circa 1978. Archive of Evgeniy Kalinin (392 ODRAP).

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x729/100588233_3120969644634580_7722245116810756096_o_a2de55cf533 615383abd73256a275e1af2da3ca2.jpg
RAF Phantom FG.1 XV583 'B' of No. 111 Sqd. (AFB Leuchars) escorting Tu-95RTs of 392 ODRAP (Kipelovo AFB) over North Atlantic. 1970s. Archive of Evgeniy Kalinin (392 ODRAP).

Regards,

Whinging Tinny

28th May 2020, 02:45