Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?

[LNAV VNAV -]

According to the below article in Greek, a Thomson 737 landed on the taxiway at Paphos airport this afternoon. :eek:



21 Σεπτεμβρίου 2011, 20:16 EEST
SigmaLive
Παρολίγον τραγωδία θα συνέβαινε στο αεροδρόμιο Πάφου, όταν στις 4.30 το απογευμα, μποϊνγκ 737, της εταιρίας Τόμσον, με 192 επιβάτες και 7μελες πλήρωμα, αντί να προσγειωθεί στο δίαυλο του αεροδρομίου Πάφου, προσγειώθηκε στο διάδρομο τροχοδρόμησης, το γνωστό taxi-way, τον οποίο χρησιμοποιούν τα αεροσκάφη για να προσεγγίσουν το δίαυλο ή για να απομακρυνθούν από αυτόν.
Το λάθος αποδίδεται στον πιλότο του αεροσκάφους της ξένης αεροπορικής εταιρίας ενώ το ευτύχημα είναι ότι εκείνη τη στιγμή δεν υπήρχε κανένα αεροσκάφος στο διάδρομο τροχοδρόμησης.
Σε κίνδυνο τεθήκαν και οι ζωές των 199 επιβαινόντων του αεροσκάφους, αφού ο διάδρομος τροχοδρόμησης δεν διαθέτει καμιά υποδομή για προσγείωση. Ούτε καν σήμανση.
Λόγω της σοβαρότητας του περιστατικού άρχισαν αμέσως έρευνες, με τον πιλότο να παραδέχεται το λάθος του. Μάλιστα συμφωνά με πληροφορίες του Σιγμα, όταν ρωτήθηκε πως έκανε ένα τόσο τραγικό λάθος, απάντησε: «Δεν ξερώ, τι να σας πω».

Ο εκπρόσωπος τύπου των αεροδρομίων, Αδάμος Ασπρής, είπε επί λέξη οτι πρόκειται για μια εξέλιξη που ουδείς ανέμενε. Πρόκειται για ιδιαιτέρα σοβαρό περιστατικό και για το λογο αυτό οι αρμόδιες Αρχές θα το διερευνήσουν σε βάθος και με πολλή προσοχή.







http://www.sigmalive.com/files/imagecache/content_image/files/node_images/0/2/6/421026/thomsonfly.jpg (http://www.sigmalive.com/files/imagecache/full_image/files/node_images/0/2/6/421026/thomsonfly.jpg)

[757_Driver]

thats all greek to me.

(pic is of a 757 too - not a 737)

[Airbus321-200]

Care of google translate:

Near-tragedy would happen in Paphos airport, when at 4.30 in the afternoon, Boeing 737, the company Thompson, with 192 passengers and 7-member crew, landed instead on the bus for the airport of Paphos, landed on runway taxiing, the famous taxi-way, which use the aircraft to reach the bus or to evacuate him.
The error was attributed to pilot the aircraft of foreign airline while it is fortunate that at that moment there was no aircraft taxiing on the runway.
At stake were the lives of 199 persons on board the aircraft as the runway taxiing lacks any infrastructure for landing. Not even marking.
Given the seriousness of the incident immediately began investigations by the pilot to admit his mistake. Indeed, according to information from the Sigma, when asked how he made such a tragic mistake, he replied: "I do not know what to say."

A spokesman for the airport, Adamos White, said verbatim that this is a trend that no one expected. This is a particularly serious incident and therefore the competent authorities will investigate thoroughly and very carefully

[kriskross]

Well, even with 189 pax (max) on an -800, 4 cabin crew and 2 pilots, it was thus unlikely to have been a 737, so the 757 is more likely.

[TSR2]

The passenger total could have included infants.

[Airbus321-200]

Unless they have counted in infants and possibly a C-reg 737 ( needs 5 cabin crew) or an extra to crew doing a flight review or a newbie (doubt it). Still could be a 737.

[MATELO]

A Thompson B738 landed just after 4.30 from Robin Hood airport shortly after 16.30.

[Airbus321-200]

On robin hood airport website TOM3351 is delayed until 0424. I was due in from Paphos at 2050.

[Dani]

Paphos airport is a tricky one: long and narrow runway, parallel to a taxiway which is about the same width and length. Easy to confuse. No disaster, because it is intended as a military emergency strip. Unless there is taxiing traffic of course...

[500 above]

They were using 29 earlier today at PFO. Pretty hazy day, no real clouds. Runway not into sun at that time, ILS guidance on 29 etc... I doubt they accepted 11 with the wind at Pafos today. TWY B (parallel) has been used in the past for arrivals and departures, however.

From the airport website...

18:00 DONCASTER TOM3351 Delayed - New Time 01:30 *

IF it was the 3351. Big if...

[racedo]

AF last week

Thomson this week

[VaniosLenos]

If Rwy 11 was in use, the VORDME straight in approach to Rwy 11 in Paphos, brings the aircraft slightly offset, aligning the aircraft with the parallel taxiway, which is on the left, from the platform height down to the MDA. Usually during daylight, only PAPIs are on. Disconnecting the automatics and you have to turn slightly to the right to align with the runway.

[500 above]

Yassas Vanios

Even so, although hazy, September Cyprus conditions usually you can see the airport from TOBAL. The only clouds there today were over Troodos. BTW the RWY QDM for 11 is 107, the app crs RWY 11 is also 107...

[VaniosLenos]

Correctly said, however operating in & out of PFO for many years, LNAV and VORLOC for 11, on the 738 does bring the aircraft slightly offset..
And pilots do accept a light TW for a straight in when controllers offer it...

[500 above]

I am aware of that Vanios, and the tailwind issues. Pretty windy today though, and a Wednesday - the airports busiest day (Sundays also as I'm sure you know, assuming you're ex Helios or ECA) Just fortunate no mil helos or other ac using TWY B.

Update,

I now have it on good authority that it was indeed RWY 29 in use during the incident. Another crew was flown in to operate out.

[Dairn]

Also, having been there recently, the taxiway is longer than the runway, the same width (as previously mentioned, it's intended to be used as a runway), and quite a lot brighter as it's not covered in rubber. It's contrast in most lighting conditions makes it more obvious than the main landing runway, especially during a circling approach. Also, last thing promise!, the landing runway is closer to the passenger terminal than the taxiway, in most places the parallel taxiway (or emerg runway) are closer to the civilian apron (logical airport layout). It all adds up to a potential trap in developing a mental model of what you're looking at. As we all know, it's hard to change that model even when presented with evidence to the contrary at a late stage, such as runway markings, approach lights, PAPI's etc.. All good briefing points when having your chat before TOD.

[Right Way Up]

I'm fairly surprised the Tower controller did not notice the misalignment.

[LNAV VNAV -]

Maybe he was eating his tiropitta! :E

[Airbus321-200]

Incident: Thomson B738 at Paphos on Sep 21st 2011, landed on taxiway (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=44355a86&opt=0)

Here is some info.

[ron83]

I'm fairly surprised the Tower controller did not notice the misalignment.
Well do you know exactly visual perspective from the tower?:ugh:
Better to say,how both pilots didn't notice there are no RWY markings they are landing at?

[silverhawk]

Other factors to be considered before damning the crew out of hand,

3 hour delay

End of a long Summer Season

Fatigue issues, especially as Thomson have been scheduling Sharm all Summer on impossible to achieve schedule times, to reduce crew costs but causing repeated discretion usage.

There is a cost to safety that can only be borne by slighty smaller profit margins.

[ZeBedie]

Poor sods. I hope there's an open and honest inquiry.

[westhawk]

Prior to modification of the taxiway markings, Both KSEA and KLAS had some taxiway/runway visual ID problems too. I seem to remember there being some caution notes somewhere in the Jepp pages as well.

[Forum old Bart]

Very good res. satellite pic here if you zoom in, which shows the layout;

Paphos International airport | Marathounda Google Satellite Map (http://www.maplandia.com/cyprus/paphos/marathounda/airports/paphos-international-airport/)

[Dani]

I such cases, I always ask the controller on short final: "Confirm, RWY is right and TWY is left" (or the other way round). Better safe than sorry.

[Right Way Up]

Well do you know exactly visual perspective from the tower? :ugh:

Stop doing that RON you'll give yourself a headache.

It is already a fact the crew made a mistake, however sometimes someone else can stop the holes lining up. If the tower can see the runway, an aircraft lined up incorrectly will look wrong to the controller. It certainly isn't the controllers fault, and indeed many controllers have saved crews bacon in the past.

[Mike-Bracknell]

So my suggestion the last time this happened, of colouring the taxyways red, seems to be still valid.

[captjns]

Curious to know if a contributing factor may have been the runway markings, numbers, piano keys, and centerline were washed out from the light of the sun. Was the taxiway ever used as a temorary runway where the numbers were never properly erased.

[500 above]

Captjns

There have never been any runway markings on the taxiway, to my knowledge. Poor sods indeed.

[Syntax]

This is such a shame.

Technology exists that could all but eliminate these occurrences. Certification acts as a barrier, acting in the opposite sense from which it should. Airlines are unable or unwilling to pay for the equipment. Regulators stand idly by when they should be mandating said equipment.

Will we have to experience a loss on the scale of Tenerife before runway advisory systems mature and become a mandated fit? It seems it might be just "the cost of doing business" in the airline industry and that it's easier to keep on blaming crews rather then asking some hard, inconvenient or expensive questions.

[kotakota]

I am not being flippant , and I feel very sorry for the crew involved , but nobody / nothing got hurt , and I doubt very much whether they would have landed on a taxiway if there had been another aircraft on it .
Its been a few years since I was operating in/out of Paphos and cannot remember where the Papis are for 27 - are they between the runway and the taxiway ? ie Left of the runway , and right of the taxiway ?

[BOAC]

Anyone seen the latest Specsavers ad on UK TV? Classic!

[break_break]

Thanks for the google map link Forum Old Bart.

Many known factors could have contributed to this unfortunate incident. Though I must say it's not too difficult for someone to mess this one up looking at the close up pic.

Poor lads for sure, and yet another reminder for us, to include another cross check on your own before making a full visual, usually short cut/time savings approach and landing.

[fireflybob]

BOAC, you mean this one?

Shuttle arrival

[El Grifo]

A lot of use of the word "poor" here as in "poor sods", "poor lads".

Is the term being used in the sense of sympathy or poor airmanship ?

[thebeast]

maybe the runway was on strike due to government austerity measures and the taxiway bailed him out?

[A and C]

Oh dear ! Another pprune storm looking for a tea cup.

[blablabla]

Did he land it in the touchdown zone ? Did he track the center line and land right on the white center line paint ? Did he come over the threshold and look to the right and wonder when Paphos had built that lovely Parallel runway ?

Very Poor Airmanship....no Runway numbers...no touchdown markings...no piano keys....no center line...and a new Parallel runway right out the window thats not on any charts and wasnt there last time haha 2 Pilots miss all the visual cues and land on a Taxi-way...I`d be afraid to get on-board with these 2 "Professionals"

[Bike]

Being another (ex:{) frequent flyer out of PFO I can admit that when on a visual approach on 29 at late afternoon near sunset, it is easy to get confused and align on the parallel taxiway which is placed quite near the rwy. On the other hand, these are considerations which should be addressed if a proper briefing is conducted plus all the other backups like localizer indication etc.

It's not my intention to either condemn or justify. At least this unfortunate but in the end "harmless" incident should drive the Cyprus DCA to add an awareness note in the AIP info for PFO that a parallel taxiway exists and crews should be cautious. I don't remember if such a note exists on approach plates currently in force.

My two cents

[Wisden Wonder]

If the Flight Engineer had been in the seat, [I know the 737 never carried one], the throttles would have been up to climb power, a call of 'Overshoot' would have been made, and the Pilot Flying would have been clearly informed that he made a cat's arse of the approach and must do better. We are now the size of a packet of 20 cigs, but how many accidents did we prevent when we were operational in that super middle seat.

[MachBuffet]

Can't believe the level of ill-informed debate on what is supposed to be a "professional pilots' " network. PPLs and a bunch of microsoft sofa jockeys once again casting their retrospective aspersions on a couple of highly trained individuals who made an all too human error.

[El Grifo]

Not "highly trained" enough perhaps ?

[GeorgioCy]

I totally agree with Dani. The Paphos runway is tricky. The taxiway is not a real taxiway but a back-up military runway. It is longer and wider that the actual runway and the most tricky of all, it is placed not on the side of the parking of the planes and the buildings of the airport but on the opposite side that drives to the military parking. An employee of the Cyprus civil aviation told me that the same incidents happened in the past but the airport authorities did nothing to correct it. A simple look on Google earth will make you understand.

[RHINO]

Surprised it has not happened before. It is quite easy to line up on the taxiway. It invites you by its more prominent visual cues. Much brighter than the runway. Also not conventional as it is further from the terminal than the main runway. Before you all start bleating about the ILS it is turned off from time to time.

Maybe a little mention on the charts would help to educate folk. My guess that will be the outcome.

Wonder if the nice people in MAN atc record all the mistaken taxying that goes on at that airport......or will 'something' have to happen.....

[little-paddy]

I love the sympathy and "it's an easy mistake" the boys are getting just because it's Thompson and not Ryanair/easyjet or some similar outfit. Ya see, any pilot can make an error that has nothing to do with their call sign.

They all walked away and fair play. Maybe a few should remember that, the next time they call their low cost colleagues "cow boys" on here.

Safe flying to one and all from the senior man at the best flag carrier to the guy on his first day line training with the dodgiest outfit out there.

[Weary]

I think for posters on this website who have done and do operate regularly out of PFO, there is an element of sympathy for this crew.
Whilst, for the pretenders, it is easy to imagine that a crew has all the time in the world to peruse the runway in detail before landing, in reality "the office" is moving at 3 miles/min and you are very busy heads-down running check-lists, extending flaps, and monitoring speeds etc. The point being, even on the most visual of days, the B738 is still not a VFR aeroplane and was never designed to be.
Yes - the flight crew screwed up. But, as others have pointed out, the airport layout of PFO lends itself readily to the possibility of this sort of confusion. At the very least, the counter-intuitive layout of PFO is testimony to the fact that others involved in the Swiss Cheese business are often rather less circumspect in their application and dedication to the priorities of flight safety when they know that ultimately it will always be the pilots who are left carrying the can.

[A and C]

So guys, an aircraft lands on a runway that is about 50m displaced to the north of the runway intended..........what is the problem ?

Any one hurt ? any thing damaged ?................NO!

Don't the multi thousand hour Microsoft pilots think that if another aircraft had been on the standby runway (taxiway) then this would not have happend ?

Now is the time for those of you who are currently not allowed out without adult supervision to cop on to the fact that we are all likely to make errors and admitting that you can make errors is the first step in reducing those errors or at best stopping them before the error becomes an accident.

Now grow up be thankful that it was not your error and learn just how easy it could be for you to be sitting in the Chief pilots office next week trying to avoid a very one sided interview.

[Northbeach]

There is nothing new under the sun. That which has been done is that which will be done.

Landing on the wrong runway, closed runway or some unauthorized piece of parallel concrete has happened many times in the past, continues to happen today and will happen again in the future.

The important lesson here is to understand why the crew landed on the wrong piece of concrete so that you and I are not the next crew to make the same mistake at that airport or anywhere else. "It's going to happen" just make sure it does not happen to you! Assigning derogatory adjectives to their airmanship, intelligence and performance may be personally satisfying on some level but does little to nothing in preventing such occurrences.

There is a reason that aviation regulations require landing crews to have the navigation facilities that are available tuned, identified an followed (if operational) and the training departments have all those policies, required briefings and callouts.

A quick look at Google Earth to evaluate the airport design should be obvious to anybody who flies for a living that this incident has happened at this airport before. I want to strive to understand what broke down in the process and why the failure occurred in order to decrease the probability my making the same error.

Some of the questions that need to be asked include; how long had this crew been on duty on the day of this incident, how many hours have they been on duty that week and month? What, if any, did scheduling practices and fatigue contribute to the underlying cause of this event? How many other incidents have occurred on this runway, what has the airport done to mitigate mistaken runway-taxiway identity at their facility? What navigation facilities are available for this runway, and were they operational? How about the approach lightening and runway markings, are they up to current regulatory requirements and all functioning correctly?

There is usually much more to the equation than "look at that dumb- son of a &@!!"; he/ she, they (demographic/region/particular airline) are terrible pilots.

This crew will face discipline, they will "pay" for their error. I am not advocating they get a pass for their error. That is a given; missing the runway will result in great pain for them. None of us put on the uniform on any given day thinking we will mistake a taxiway for a runway, land long and fast then depart the "prepared surface" or commit a gross navigational error on some long range flight. The truth is we, the pilots actually flying these fast moving anti-gravity machines not the "flight sim video game aces", operate in a high threat environment where things can go from routine to dangerous in a fraction of a second. When errors are committed many of those errors will be highly visible and scrutinized.

The Canadians have a safety publication with the following summary statement I have found accurate and worthwhile: learn from the errors of others, you will not live long enough to commit them all yourself.

[Out Of Trim]

If the Taxiway/Temporary runway was actually marked as a runway it would probably be safer. Crews cleared to land on 29L rather than 29R would make them visually look for both to make sure they got the correct one.

[Piloto2011]

I feel sorry for the crew and do not wish to be in their shoes right now.

We all should recall we can get easily distracted in a split of a second and forget to do the main things. No matter how much experience.

As I have not flown a fast-moving jet yet by no means am I to judge. But here's what I do before flying into an unknown airport: study the plates carefully the day before; check Google for a satellite image and remember that picture; always have a chat with colleagues who have flown into that very airport before; on final look for and check the numbers (no numbers at all no good); check tire markings and white markings. And if still in doubt I check with ATC.

[captjns]

Most airlines provide their crews with special detailed airport briefs where possible conflicts may occur such as this. Does Thompson provide the same for it's crews.

[fireflybob]

If the Taxiway/Temporary runway was actually marked as a runway it would probably be safer. Crews cleared to land on 29L rather than 29R would make them visually look for both to make sure they got the correct one.


Out of Trim, quite agree.

Rather than apportioning blame we should be seeking to avoid this type of event ever happening again. The Paphos brief for the company I fly for indicates that the taxiway is sometimes used as a "runway" which emphasises the point that some sort of better signage might prevent this type of incident.

[RHINO]

However, think of how ATC at PFO would cope with all the verbiage this would generate......

[mattman]

Wow I am a little shocked by some of the comments, leaving the poor sods out of the equation, there is no excuse for a professional crew to have done this, if it was such a challenge for you airline boys maybe you should have a standard brief for Pahpos?

If it had been a PPL in a 150, a 8000 hour cpt in a Global you wonder boys would have ripped them a new a-hole.

This airport is not a challenge it was day VFR and it is used daily by airlines. If reading the plate or planning your arrival was not high on your agenda then you should not be up front.

Jeez guys what would you have said if the aircraft had landed on a helicopter or a guy just chasing birds or metal splattered everywhere?

This is basic airmanship and if this is considered a challenge then flying is not your vocation.

Just so you ding bats who want to critize, I fly a business jet based out of Cyprus.

[Right Way Up]

This airport is not a challenge it was day VFR

Mattman, if this was at night or ILS to minimums this would not have occurred. It was because it was DAY VFR this happened.

[Sciolistes]

Rather than apportioning blame we should be seeking to avoid this type of event ever happening again. The Paphos brief for the company I fly for indicates that the taxiway is sometimes used as a "runway" which emphasises the point that some sort of better signage might prevent this type of incident.

I agree that there is nearly always a systemic factor to these kinds of mistakes. Knowing and therefore mitigating such factors prior to the operation can reduce the chance of the error being precipitated. Even so, such errors are nearly always trapped before any kind of incident occurs.

If flight crew have been diligently filing reports on how such confusion can arise at PFO, then this crew may have an easier time of it. If PFO isn't that much of a problem, or as is often the case, crew are reluctant to report the potential hazard then the problem will be harder to work with and crew may not be as prepared as perhaps they should be.

I for one, have misidentified a taxiway as a runway, the Captain didn't and as usual, CRM trapped the error so this wasn't an issue because we were still a couple of miles out. But what if he had the same perception? As a result I can understand how easy it is to make the mistake and am much more cognisant of such errors than previously. Report duly submitted too.

Also, I do honestly find it hard to understand how a landing could be completed without a centre line or touchdown zone. But I have also had glimpses of how the brain simply erases such concerns when everything else appears completely normal.

One thing is for sure, assuming these guys have a good history and assuming this incident is handled correctly, this crew will be a much more capable, experienced and safe crew.

[Deep and fast]

I feel sorry for this crew.

You do a million things right. So what.

You drop a bollock once- instant arsehole.

So, you go from hero to zero in one nanosecond and they just look at you, a-shaking their heads. How could you? A man of your experience?

To the investigators I just say this.

Fly the f*ckers yourself and lets see how long before YOU f&ck up!

Been there, done that and moved on. Management just like to cover there arses by kicking pilots out on their arse.

Proper training both on the ground and in the sim and good rostering are key to stoping incidents like this. When I joined my last company there were 5.6 first officers per aircraft, when I "left" there were 3.4! Same schedule being flown too!

Eventually something has to give and unfortunately it's most likely the crew.

D and F :8

[Capt Scribble]

I agree Mattman, any airport with multiple parallel runways needs careful briefing. I would never say it wouldn't happen to me but I would accept that the buck stops with the Captain in this case. PFO needs a little care if its hazy but its a regular destination and pilots are paid to use their experience. A spot of bad luck for this crew and a lesson for the rest of us.

[757_Driver]

Once again, what should be an informative threat about an important incident for the rest of us to learn from (note: thats what most professionals do - they learn from incidents) has turned into an immature willy waving contest from a bunch of 16 year old flight simmers.
Its a real pity that there isn't a more professional forum for people to discuss these sort of things sensibly.

[Hotel Tango]

We can discuss sensibly all we like but what we don't know is the exact mindset of the crew in question at the time. What puzzles me is that they must surely have operated into Paphos dozens of times before (it's a very regular Thomson destination), so while I accept that with a setting sun conditions may have been visually impaired (with regard to runway markings etc.) they should have been aware of the airport layout.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

It is fairly apparent to me that the crew did not deliberately land on the taxiway - therefore there must be a reason. It seems likely to me that they were a competent, capable and appropriately trained crew who only wanted to do a professional job that day - we should also recognise that taxiway landings and take-off have occurred numerous times over the years. To berate the crew is not the answer - we have to recognise that the human propensity is to err and we have to develop mehanisms to ensure this does not happen over and over. Step One is to realise that it can happen to anyone. Step Two is to get inside the crew's heads to work out what they saw and what led them to the view they were landing on a runway. Step Three is to revise training to ensure that the visual cues used in these numerous incidents are highlighted and trained out. Murphy's Law says, 'If it can happen, it will happen'. My own experience over many years as an airline pilot has borne that out, and therefore I want to understand what happened here rather than be too self-righteous about it.

[ron83]

I'm fairly surprised the Tower controller did not notice the misalignment. Quote:
Well do you know exactly visual perspective from the tower? :ugh:
Stop doing that RON you'll give yourself a headache.

It is already a fact the crew made a mistake, however sometimes someone else can stop the holes lining up. If the tower can see the runway, an aircraft lined up incorrectly will look wrong to the controller. It certainly isn't the controllers fault, and indeed many controllers have saved crews bacon in the past. You said that you are surprised and I just gave you one of the possible reasons why controller didn't notice it. I'm sure if he noticed it he would challenged the crew.
If we look at google earth Tower is almost 2000m from threshold RWY 29.
Also for some other posters, Taxiway displaced some 180m north from RWY not 50m. Measuring with google earth taxiway seems to be narrower than RWY and measures about 35m wide.
Whilst, for the pretenders, it is easy to imagine that a crew has all the time in the world to peruse the runway in detail before landing, in reality "the office" is moving at 3 miles/min and you are very busy heads-down running check-lists, extending flaps, and monitoring speeds etc.Well, I don't think they suppose to be heads down on a visual approach do they? 3 miles/min on short final,maybe time to go around.
I also have a question could the sun blind them so strong they weren't able to see any markings?:sad: Otherwise strange to aim at "RWY" with no touchdown zone markings:hmm:

Here is also a link on approach to RWY 29:[YOUTUBE]Cessna 172 Landing at Pafos/Cyprus RWA 29 - YouTube

[500 above]

From today's Cyprus Mail...

UK plane lands on wrong runway in Paphos
September 23, 2011
By Patrick Dewhurst
A FLIGHT narrowly dodged disaster on Wednesday afternoon after landing on Paphos airport’s taxiway instead of the main landing strip.
The Thomson Airways’ Boeing 737-800 flight from Doncaster had 192 passengers and seven cabin crew on board and was fortunate to avoid a catastrophic crash on the empty taxiway.
According to the online aviation news site, Aviation Herald, flight BY3350 was on approach to and cleared to land on runway 29, but aligned with and landed on the parallel taxiway.
Hermes Airports’ spokesman Adamos Aspris confirmed the reports yesterday: “It seems that the captain of a British Boeing 737 landed on the taxiway instead of the main runway.”
The weather conditions were reportedly slightly hazy, but cloudless and with good visibility.*
Asked about the potential dangers of such a landing, Aspris said: “This was a least expected occurrence, and it is a big issue for us. There is research being undertaken by the relevant authorities who will investigate the matter thoroughly.”
The main authority involved is Cyprus’ Air Accident Investigation Authority (AAIA) who yesterday assigned three staff to begin gathering information on the case.
AAIA Chairman Costas Orphanos told the Cyprus Mail this was the first incident of its kind at Paphos airport: “We are collecting information from the pilots, air safety reports and on weather conditions, and we are in contact with the UK’s accident investigation authority.”
Orphanos said that such incidents have occurred elsewhere, such as in the USA, UK and Italy.*
“We have the authority to make recommendations to the government and they will make changes if necessary,” he said.
By yesterday morning, the story had caused a stir on the popular pilots’ message board pprune.org.
According to one commenter on the website, the particular layout of Paphos airport could have played a part in the incident.*
‘Dani’ said: “Paphos airport is a tricky one: long and narrow runway, parallel to a taxiway which is about the same width and length. Easy to confuse. No disaster, because it is intended as a military emergency strip... unless there is taxi-ing traffic.”
While another, ‘Dairn’, said: “The taxiway is longer than the runway, the same width and quite a lot brighter as it's not covered in rubber.”
“Its contrast in most lighting conditions makes it more obvious than the main landing runway, “he added, “especially during a circling approach. Also... the landing runway is closer to the passenger terminal than the taxiway; in most places the parallel taxiway or emergency runway are closer to the civilian apron”.
These factors, Dairn suggests, could lead pilots to creating a wrong mental model that is hard to change even when presented with runway markings and approach lights in the final stages.*
A third poster expressed surprise the control tower did not notice the misalignment, while another was perplexed the pilots did not notice any markings on the taxiway.
Following the incident, a replacement crew was flown to Paphos. The aircraft departed for the return flight BY-3351 nine-and-a-half hours after landing, reaching Doncaster with a total delay of 10.5 hours.
*
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[top9un]

Northbeach

Excellent post, illuminating for the many people reading here who probably don't understand the number of factors that combine to give the end result of an error chain.

The Airport Authorities at PFO must be made to ask themselves why they don't feel the need to label this peice of tarmac as a disused runway with an X at each end or if they need to use it as a runway on the odd occaision then a proper runway designator such as 29R to avoid confusion.

The layout is the opposite of several other airports with parallel TWY and RWY with the terminal nearest the TWY.

The position of the sun wouldn't have helped, PAPIs are often completely invisible until on very short final.

[500 above]

The PAPI's on 29 have never been the brightest anyway. Perhaps some strobe lighting here would have helped? Even on a visual though you would have thought the guys had the ILS tuned as a backup.

Remember this...

Gatwick near-disaster is blamed on aviation body
CHRISTIAN WOLMAR Transport Correspondent
Wednesday, 15

THE FAILURE of the Civil Aviation Authority to take sufficient action after an aircraft landed on a taxiway at Gatwick in 1988 nearly caused a major disaster in a similar incident last year.

A report released by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch yesterday found that the incident, when an Air Malta Boeing 737 carrying 101 passengers and crew landed on the taxiway last October, would have been avoided if runway lighting had been altered after the first incident.

The pilots of the jet were confused by the lighting on the two runways and the taxiway, which all run parallel to each other, and mistook the taxiway for the right-hand runway 26R, which is normally a taxiway but is used for landing and taking off when the main runway is closed for maintenance. Fortunately the taxiway was not in use and the aircraft landed safely.

The report does criticise the pilots for not having familiarised themselves with the lighting of runway 26R after they circled for 10 minutes after being told they would be using it, but lays most of the blame on the CAA for its failure to respond adequately to the first incident. In 1988, a BAC 1-11 landed on the same taxiway in darkness after the flight crew thought it was the main runway. The subsequent report blamed the 'similar visual appearance' of the runway and taxiway.

While the CAA did carry out some of the recommendations, it refused to accept two relating to the green centreline on the taxiway.

Yesterday's report, however, criticises the chaotic state of lighting at the airport and further confusion caused by lights from contractors' vehicles on the runway. 'Investigation of this incident has revealed a lack of procedures to ensure the co-ordinated management of all the airfield lighting at London Gatwick, so that undue prominence of a particular feature, such as the taxiway, is not inadvertently displayed,' it said.

The AAIB recommends a review of all lighting, emphasising again that the green centreline on the taxiway should not be visible to pilots landing at the airport.

The CAA has now accepted all these recommendations and says the work will take place in early 1995.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

This is what happens when pilots disconnect the automatics and are practicing those darned manual flying skills instead of staying glued to the magenta line and letting the aircraft autoland like the management want us to. ;)
This is a known "human factors" trap. Pilots are human ergo eventualy one will stick his foot in it.
A bit like landing with the gear up, these pilots will be the least likely guys to make the same mistake again but somebody will!

[MrBenip]

The guy who landed on the wrong runway at LGW in 1988 found it a good career move, he became fleet manager!!

[Right Way Up]

MrBenip,

I think he missed both runways :ooh: and landed on the taxiway.

[Paphian]

Several years ago the Taxiway was the main runway, when the military moved in a new main runway was built.
It seems strange leaving the runway to taxi, then crossing it to the terminal buildings.
but of course this is Cyprus.:)

[Shiny side down]

Another interesting event, that yes, should serve as a learning tool for the future benefit of us all. No doubt, as much as might be gained from this, the negative effects for those guys is going to be fairly bad.

I have to admit, my first reactions to news of this event were along the lines of-
oops, Bugger, silly sods, lucky escape, how on earth?

Having read much of the previous dialogue on this, it demonstrates why it is always worthwhile formulating questions and thinking through the situation, rather than commenting so quickly.

Most of the better comment is related to RWY29, and the absence of markings, perspective, identifying, and the 'how on earth did they miss' not having these.
Having never landed or lined up on, the taxiway, (there but for the grace of god?) I am curious what the perspective is as you reach the point at about 2miles from the 'threshold' of the parallel taxiway, at that time of day.

My last trip into PFO was a little over a week ago. A bright, clear, sunny day, that instantly turned murky and indistinct, once established on the localiser for the ILS29. 4pm ish, local time, sun in faces.
The taxiway always seems quite prominent.

I'm a coward. I like the procedure from over the top of the VOR!

[silverhawk]

Easy fix





Go procedural everywhere and charge the passengers an extra 20% to cover the costs.


Sick of accountants jeopardising safety...........

[moist]

Nowadays airlines accept too many destinations/airports with insufficient equipment or indeed none and still send their crews to pick up the tab.

This could happen to a crew after having been dealt with a lousy week of schedules, weather etc. and a lot of fatigue and grief.
This is unacceptable and the 'mistake' by this crew should make all cost cutting airlines sit up and smell the coffee.

But it won't, so this WILL happen again, as so many have written above! :ugh:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I'm of the view that Thomson and the crew and their Union will handle it in a professional way. Its also important that folk like Silverhawk dont "blame" the airline also.
If questions are raised about fatigue, bean counters, there and back to Sharm then surely you have to ask how many days off the pilots have sold also?.....

[scodaman]

On a lighter note, they should be grateful they landed at the correct airport at least!

At City of Derry, (LDY, EGAE) we had a total 'wrong airport' incident several years ago which made headline news at the time!

BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Plane lands at airbase by mistake (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4857962.stm)

Ryanair flight drops in at wrong airport - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article699176.ece)

Official AAIB report.
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A320, EI-DIJ (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/publications/bulletins/january_2007/airbus_a320__ei_dij.cfm)

[rjay259]

It never ceases to amaze me that people still manage to get the name wrong, I mean for goodness sake its in the title of the thread. There is no P in Thomson.

There are over 800 pilots in Thomson so while it maybe a regular destination for the company, for the pilots they may only go there once a month or fewer.

It has become increasingly difficult at PFO due to fewer controllers being around, the tower controller being the area controller and the ground/tower controller too. It makes for an interesting approach when you are number three and the atco is giving out departure clearances.

So to those who were very quick to lay blame, get out of the house and into sunlight and shut your cake holes about what you know nothing off. You were not there, you dont know any facts, you have no idea what was happening in the flight deck at that moment in time. Until the report comes out which does have facts, lay off the blame train.

The pilots at Thomson are very professional and it is a pleasure to fly with many of them.

[inbalance]

I made a HD video during a visual approach at Pafos the last time I have been there. It gives a good view of the runway and the taxiway. Looking for webspace to upload it here.

I put it on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq1HdoAYs6A

At 0:44 you can see a view from approach direction 11.

Inbalance

[Buster the Bear]

For whatever reason, they apparently landed on the taxiway, but as a result of this incident, every pilot flying into Paphos will be doing a little bit more monitoring.

My first thoughts when I saw that this flight was delayed by over 3 hours was fatigue? They fly the plane out and back on a trip. Cyprus is a long way from Doncaster. Standby crew called in?

All that I hope is that the crew, who after all are professionals, are not castigated on here or by their employer, or even the regulators. Safety comes from experiences. Lessons are learned.

Before we 'hang em on high', let us wait to find out the facts and hope that safety issues are shared?

Mistakes are seldom made on purpose, plugging the Swiss Cheese is incumbent of all of us!

[macdo]

Yes, this is the old Swiss Cheese holes lining up. I can feel this one being adopted for next years CRM courses already!
Clearly messed up and could easily have been a disaster, there but for the grace of god etc..
There are any number of airports, particularly ones in Greece where if you let your concentration lapse for a moment this could happen. Poor ATC, markings, radio aids (if any), language, weather - all there to get ya!
Its the best part of being a holiday jet pilot. Radar vectors to the ILS 4 times a week would drive me to distraction. But, beware the swiss cheese...
Assuming these guys Mea Culpa, I would expect re-training and back on the line ASAP.

[Thrush]

Backtrack

A "Standard Landing" for the 738, according to Mr Boeing, is with 2 autopilots engaged down the ILS to an autoland. It does not have to be anything to do with Cat 3.

There but for the grace of God etc..... Poor sods. Human Factors must have played a huge part in this and I wonder if Thomson employ children like other airlines, instead of high hours crews?

The experience levels in the Left Hand Seat as well as the Right are a cause for concern that the CAA must look at. Just because a co pilot has 3000 hours, there is a modern-day assumption that a Command is a god-given right. It's not.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Thrush.

You mean 2,000 hours, right?

[VFD]

Mentioned up thread KSEA (Seatac) had 8 landings on taxiway tango between dec 99 and nov 08 (about one a year) until the new 16R/34L was built. There were multitudes of go arounds. Most were by pilots with experience with KSEA and a multitude of operators. The airport even placed a giant yellow "X" at both ends of tango, there were still landings on tango and go arounds on tango.
The common element at KSEA, before the new runway, and Paphos is the placement of the taxiway in a configuration that placed the taxiway away from the terminal.
This is a human element, the human brain often reacts to what it expects to see. Throw in as many human elements that add up: long duty day, delayed flight, get there itis, last leg of the day, last day of a tough schedule, infrequent visitor to the airport, the list goes on.

[El Grifo]

No Excuses but :D :D :D

[westhawk]

I couldn't get the technical issues related to linking a google maps sat view properly so I'll just suggest taking a look yourselves. Search Las Vegas Airport (KLAS) and zoom in on the taxiways adjacent to the Rwys 19L&R thresholds to see one pretty handy solution to the taxiway/runway identification issue. Note the squiggly lines painted over the taxiway centerlines at the north end. Using these for taxi guidance is NOT recommended!

Yes, mistakes happen. In the case of landing other than where intended, there are a great many reasons why this might happen. Those reasons should be addressed wherever possible. The most effective way to trap errors is to be looking for them. Whether in the air or or on the ground, a pilot needs to be on constant watch for anything that doesn't look right. This is more true than ever when tired or distracted. Everyone makes mistakes. The sooner you catch them, the better chance there is that they can be corrected before they snowball.

The way I see it, anything that can reasonably be done to aid pilots in properly identifying the landing surface should be done. But when I'm an assigned pilot crewmember I fully realize that the responsibility is mine if a mistake is allowed to turn into an incident or worse. I look for that approach to personal responsibility in any pilot I fly with too. That's the only acceptable attitude as far as I'm concerned. I'm not perfect either. Yet I fully expect to be judged by the same standard.

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Agree A and C, greece, it's only by the skill of the crews that there aren't more accidents, money has gone, disappeared, no investment in runways / markings or aids, EVER.

Ok, all the visual / NPA rubbish airports have got an inch thick of approach stars and sids courtesy of the greek bureaucrats.

Cyprus, not much better, compare that to Turkey with state of the art everything, makes the UK look like Africa.

No one was hurt, nothing was damaged but pride.

Maybe there's a hope that the airport might paint something as simple as an X on the end of the taxiway, because boy's and girl's, these pilots are not idiots and but for the grace of god.

[Serafim Kamoutsis]

Paphos airport it is NOT a tricky airport !! As captain in olympic airways for more than 22 yrs i landed at least 20 times, and also during night ! The incident is due to captain carelesness !

[CocoBongos]

Serafim Kamoutis
As a presumably intelligent Captain with Olympic Airways one would thought that you would have the decency not to make a presumption until the result of the enquiry.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

[rjay259]

Thrush, newest fo at Thomson has five years with company, and about 3500 hours tt. Captains are about 10000 hrs. No excuse but we don't know what happened in the flight deck to cause this incident.
Serafirm- 20 landings at pfo in 22 years. Hardly experienced at the airport I would say. Think I have done 15 in the last twelve months at pfo.
We will all wait and see what the reports say.

[BOAC]

Gents - As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions. - never assume! 20 in 22 years - obviously a slacker.:) No wonder the country is in difficulties if folk work that hard.

[Pub User]

rjay259

There are over 800 pilots in Thomson so while it maybe a regular destination for the company, for the pilots they may only go there once a month or fewer.

Thomson also have a lot of destinations. In nearly 8 years of flying with them my MOST frequent destination has averaged at less than once a month, and I've been to PFO eleven times.

[ZOOKER]

I wonder what the ATC side of the enquiries will look like?
When I was at school, I got a b*llocking for looking out of the window.
When I was doing Aerodrome ATC, I got paid to look out of the window.
Having said that, looking at inbalance's superb landing video, the angle of both the touchdown points from the VCR appears to be fairly similar.

[aristoclis]

@BOAC


- never assume! 20 in 22 years - obviously a slacker.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif No wonder the country is in difficulties if folk work that hard.


Serafim beiing a slacker or not, you being an idiot or not, pilot's or ATC's error, fact is: Paphos is not a tricky airport.

Dear Mods, I am really fed up with people in this forum grasping at every single oportunity to offend Greeks in general. :=

[PT6A]

Sounds like a good case for fitting RAAS.....

Helps to stop this type of incident if all else has failed.

[ZOOKER]

Or fitting another pair of eyes in the VCR.

[jumpseater]

I wonder what the ATC side of the enquiries will look like?
When I was at school, I got a b*llocking for looking out of the window.
When I was doing Aerodrome ATC, I got paid to look out of the window.
Having said that, looking at inbalance's superb landing video, the angle of both the touchdown points from the VCR appears to be fairly simil

We must have had the same teacher...

The tower is on the north side of the runway, facing south into the sun, to view the runways. Depending on the ergonomics of the tower controllers position, adequate sun shading/blinds, dirt on the windows etc etc, there's the potential, (regardless of workload) that the tower controller may have had a compromised viewpoint to notice any missalignment.

[Hooligan Bill]

Simple answer: Leave runway approach and runway lighting on during hours of operation, therefore no chance of misidentification.

[ZOOKER]

Sounds good to me Bill. There must be enough sunshine out there to provide some some solar energy input to the approach lighting system. EGCC are working on this I believe.
Checking your location indicator it could mean 'light at the end of the tunnel'.
10/10 for thinking out of The Box.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

I used to into CDG (a lot) and when a runway was out of use, the frogs would put up a giant flashing red 'X'.

It must have stood 20 feet tall and they stuck it on the threshold.

It was 100% effective.

Why not stick something similar near this taxiway before someone gets killed?

You can always switch it off or fold it down in the unlikely event of having to press this taxiway into service as a runway.

[ZOOKER]

I remember doing a 'fam-flight' to LFPG and seeing for the first time a big red band across the link with 'RUNWAY AHEAD' painted in large friendly letters.
Simple, cheap, and (hopefully), effective.

[Prober]

All the excellent suggestions could be incorporated and they may well save the odd incident. In many years of ops, I experienced two near ‘misses’ in this arena. One going into Ovda, VOR let down, breaking cloud on limits, 30 degrees offset. 2 parallel r/ws and a narrow parallel taxiway. One r/w was completely dug up (Notamed). Almost sunset, r/w wet, sun reflected off the taxiway giving the appearance of lighting. At about 2 miles, serious doubt flooded in – it looked frightfully narrow. I realized the error just as the tower said “That’s the taxiway!” A quick side-step saved the day and, fortunately for me, the CAA inspector who was on the jump seat, said that he had been fooled as well. Phew!
The other occurred at LHR. Absolutely inexplicable and well may be in the same category as the Paphos incident. LHR Easterlies land only on the Left of the two parallels. T/O’s are from both. ILS idented AA for L and BB for R. With 2 very (very) experienced operators, we established on the R until Tower (many, many thanks), queried it. We had both idented the ILS, both were based at LHR and both had operated there for at least 20 years. Why? I have often wondered and tried to analyse this, but to no avail. I am afraid that, every now and again, sh*t happens.

[westie]

Prober - excellent post. There for the grace of God go I ??

Some other excellent posts plus some who really should be ashamed of themselves, including the apparently experienced pilots. It makes me laugh how the 20 hour ppl hopefuls think they have a wealth of experience in the airline world, but it shows when they post some absolute cr*p.

[macdo]

"
"Paphos airport it is NOT a tricky airport !! As captain in olympic airways for more than 22 yrs i landed at least 20 times, and also during night ! The incident is due to captain carelesness !"


judging by the posters age, a good example of previous generation arrogance that gave us lots of 'Pilot Error' accident.

I am a superpilot I can't be wrong....really?

[westie]

Macdo - yep and the quote you mention is an example of an apparently experienced pilot who has had his finger up his ar*e for the last 20 years and is quite honeslty a liability. He should know better than to make such an idiot post as that, but then the world is full of idiots.

[Karsten99]

Prober i think you summed it up best
sh*t happens ...

All we can do is to reduce the probability but nothing will be ever a 100% perfect thing.
Such a post is a refreshingly honest statement compared to many others made before. :ok:

[FL370 Officeboy]

The experience levels in the Left Hand Seat as well as the Right are a cause for concern that the CAA must look at. Just because a co pilot has 3000 hours, there is a modern-day assumption that a Command is a god-given right. It's not.

That will not have been a factor in this incident and so your comment is totally irrelavant (in this particular case, although I agree with it as a generalisation).

[PGP737]

O.A. never went to Paphos!!! the last 20 yrs. not even as charter!!!
Paphos was the alternate but as I know, it was never used.

[OverRun]

Runways are my business, as those of you that visit 'Tech Log' will know. I'm not a commercial or ATPL pilot, nor am I a human factors specialist or air safety investigator.

But as I look at it, he landed on a runway. It may be convenient to call it a taxiway or more likely it is called that as some weak military subterfuge, but that thing is a runway.

I went to the proper Google Earth and measured it as 45m wide, which is the civil requirement for that aircraft. The ends have been beefed up in concrete (which is good runway engineering for that application), and the western end has a proper runway turning node.

I'll leave the discussions about training, markings, local airport experience, and kinked instrument approaches to those better qualified then me. The comments about marking the two runways there as "L" and "R" make sense to me in a normal civil sense. The juxtaposition of the 'declared' runway and taxiway relative to the terminal is indeed there. However I find that I understand the Greek engineering better from the perspective that they are clever and subtle engineers.

The length here (of the taxiwayrunway) is 3075m. This is not just a runway that they landed on, but a very serious runway that they landed on. And given its location, of serious intent. And of serious strength as can be seen from techniques which I will not discuss.

I don't think my point can materially help the Thomson pilots. I have learned something of Greek airports, both civil and military, and a little of their design and documentation approach. I would not expect anything to emerge on paper which confirms my assertion. But if it is some small comfort to the pilots, they landed on a runway.

[oversteer]

But if it is some small comfort to the pilots, they landed on a runway.

.. that other aircraft might well have been taxi-ing on

[Weary]

Overrun - quite.

Just a little bit of paint - "L" and "R" - as you say.

So why don't they? - airport safety mechanisms rarely come as cheap as that!

[Shytehawk]

As BOAC reminds us "those posting on this site may well not be whom they appear to be".

The poster who calls himself Serafim Kamoutsis says that he was an Olympic Airways Captain and that Paphos is not a problem stating that he had landed there 20 odd times in 22 years. Interestingly he gives his age as 79. He would therefore have had to retire 19 years ago so presuming he landed there in his last year of commercial flying he would have to have landed there first 41 years ago. From Paphos airport's website I see that the airport was built in 1983. He must have been landing in a field or on a road!

[ZOOKER]

OverRun,
if it is a runway, it should be adorned with the appropriate visual markings, it should display the correct lighting, and should have published approach/departure procedures. But you know all this, as "runways are your business".

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Having been in a similar situation myself many years ago I can sympathize with the crew.

It is all too easy to make a mistake and everyone should remember you're never too old or too experienced to have an incident/accident.

I will never forget the stewardess who came to the flight deck after the flight to report all was ok.

We almost killed them all - and a couple more aircraft flying that same approach had a similar fate.

No casualties, no damage - but the sight of high ground and cliffs ahead when you should have been higher is sobering to say the least.

The company and the AAIB were accommodating but I will still remember the sight of the cliffs ahead and wonder how the :mad: we managed to get in that situation?

The approach was changed and an ILS installed, but for the grace of God I'm still alive.

Fate is the hunter indeed and I personally feel for the crew.

These incidents, with hindsight and from the comfort of an armchair, seem incredible.

The old adage: thinking time 3 seconds, investigation 3 years comes to mind!

Whether it will be 'lessons learnt' or 'apportion the blame' remains to be seen.

I was 'lucky', 'fortunate', 'grateful', but I lived to fly for many years and NEVER made the same mistake again (or any other significant for that matter).

A friend said: He would fly with me knowing that I had erred and learned about flying from that.

I hope the crew in question obtain a similar fair hearing.

[Aerlingus231]

.. that other aircraft might well have been taxi-ing on

But if there were aircraft taxiing on it them the Crew would've gone around just like they would've if there was an aircraft on any runway when they were about to land on it. No?

[hetfield]

...lands on a taxiway..

Okay, not a good idea.

Anyhow, IMHO they wouldn't have landed the aircraft if the taxiway wasn't clear.

Too simple?

[overun]

lf it`s good enough for Gatwick it`s good enough for the Greeks.

That was a 1-11 obviously.

Flying Officer Kite, dream on.

[fmgc]

When you read about this incident it's very easy to think "idiots" and "I wouldn't do that", it is a natural human reaction.

Then one day everything happens all of a sudden and you have made a mistake which potentially could have been disastrous, and now you are thinking "how the hell did I do that".

Serafim,

It may well be an easy airport but more often and not that leads pilots to being a little conceited and concentrate less.

[d71146]

I personally think we should wait for the official report to be published into the circumstances of this particular flight.
It seems there are a number of flight simmers spouting off on here judging by some of the postings.
It should be remembered that the boys involved could be reading these posts as well.
Just my own views.

[Alycidon]

Pinhead, without wishing to drift off topic, the main reason Thomsonfly (remember?) had to recruit "a few "low" experienced Captains" was because nobody from mainline wanted to fly the 737, so the company had no option but to go for DECs who had not benefitted from long years in the RHS at Britannia gaining experience of BY's very demanding operation.

Now, is it relevant that a DEC (and I don't know who was driving) was involved and if experience is proved to be a factor (a big if), then who's fault is that?

[500 above]

Quote

"lf it`s good enough for Gatwick it`s good enough for the Greeks."

Or even the Cypriots, Overun... Let's get the Country correct.

[Pub User]

Alycidon

One of the major reasons that T'Fly recruited DECs was to bring some recent 737 experience into the airline, and as a result some of the most experienced TOM 737 captains are DECs.

The captain involved in this incident is not one of them, by the way.

[lederhosen]

I was flying in that part of the world that day although not at the exact time and we were substantially delayed by the greek atc strike. There were big CBs in the general area. Last time I flew into Paphos we were offered a visual. It would make sense that they accepted one wanting to get on with things and lined up on the taxiway which is substantially brighter and where you might expect the runway to be. Turning final on a visual you could easily miss the strange ILS indication. I think we can all learn from this one.

[shortfinals]

A reasonably balanced view of the situation here Landing on the taxiway at Paphos: not so difficult - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2011/09/landing-on-the-taxiway-at-paph.html)

[Alycidon]

Pub User
One of the major reasons that T'Fly recruited DECs was to bring some recent 737 experience into the airline, and as a result some of the most experienced TOM 737 captains are DECs.


Well actually a good few were not 737 type rated.

But I take the point, very well made.

What I was querying is Pinhead's assertion that there are a few "low" experienced Captains at TOM who got in at the right time
which seemed to be aimed at the command selection process or DECs

I was hoping for some expansion on this as I didn't think anyone got into the LHS just by seniority as there was a rather high failure rate if I remember correctly. Ability was required to meet the very high standard.

I believe that this is a human factors issue and not necessarily anything to do with experience.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I've been following this and other threads on pprune mainly from my cell phone since I'm never home now...and it strikes me that it would be more productive for the pilot community to discuss preventive measures for this type of incident rather than enter a cyclical argument. I agree this type of error will manifest itself from time to time and everyone can make a mistake---personally I always {for takeoff and landing} confirm that the runway is correct and clear so far its worked-thankfully- but an examination of the issues at play would make this discussion far more productive as it is a free learning experience for us all...remembering that Delta means Don't Ever Land on Taxiway Again:ouch:

:):):)

[Pub User]

Alycidon

You are right about the failure rate, I think it stood at about 40%, so it is by no means an automatic thing with seniority.

There may have been some relatively low experience captains at one time, but there have been no promotions for over 4 years now, so even those people will be clocking the hours up by now.

[FBW390]

You want more positive informations? Preventive actions? Here are some:

Before touching down always check quickly it is a rwy! It must have:
Threshold markings, touchdown markings, fixed distance marks, and a runway number!!!
There is nothing of that? The runway number is wrong? GO AROUND!

And in case of visual approach: check and re-check, do not assume! Use the ILS if it's working! Much better as well to perform a nice stabilized approach in the last 500ft. And again check the runway markings are there; otherwise you will be on a taxiway! Read the runway number: if it's not the good one: GO AROUND!

For take-off be as well extra carefull for the presence of these markings: identify the runway by it's number, magnetic heading, localizer centered! And at night it must have white lights only! If they are blue and green it's a taxyway!

Hope this helps!

[LNAV VNAV -]

Two other candidate airports for a mistake like this: Hurghada and Luxor. And I am flying to both of them tomorrow. :eek:

[FBW390]

Don't worry LNAV, just check you are landing on a rwy (markings) and on the good QFU ( rwy numbers ) and everything will be safe!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Bless the pprune arm chair heroes. Who after downloading the latest Greek airport patch for their sims think they have the right to make a comment. The pilots made one hell of a mistake, one which they will never make again. But they landed on a strip of Tarmac bigger than the runway and all walked away. Lots of reasons why the cheese got lined up and I'm sure the truth will come out. What is more scary is the airport have done nothing since the last incident. My understanding is that safety is everyone's responsibility from the loaders to the drivers and all the bits in between.

[Spitoon]

I am not a professional pilot, just a simple controller. Having watched this debate evolve I have a few thoughts to offer.

First, I feel for the crew - as has been pointed out, no one goes to work planning to make a serious error. I sincerely hope that they have had a fair hearing.

What matters now is that we - that is to say, everyone involved in this business - understand how an experienced and normally completely competent crew got suckered into making this error. By learning all of the lessons from this event hopefully other will see the holes in the cheese lining up in enough time to prevent a recurrence.

And without in any way pre-judging the proper investigation into the event I feel certain that every part of the system can make changes that can contribute to preventing recurrence.

As a controller I have worked at airports with similar traps and wouldn't like to guess at the number of times I've offered a brief comment to highlight a possible error being made. I've also worked at a very simple airport and had to prompt a few pilots to bear left a bit as they headed toward another airport about 15 miles away. My reason for mentioning this is not to point finger at pilots but rather to point out that we are all part of a 'team' with the same aim. And it wasn't all one-sided - there were a good few times when I issued a duff clearance and it was queried by the pilot just as I spotted my error, and a couple of times I'll admit when I hadn't spotted it. I was (and still am) grateful to the crews. In all these cases, one way or another, thanks were passed and I don't ever recall a hint of offence being taken on either side. And I could come up with a range of other similar examples where members of the 'team' contribute to doing aviation safely.

Trying to hang the problem on low experienced crew members (I only pick this example because it's higher up this page) or some other single factor is simplistic. More importantly it fails to take the opportunity to see every weakness in the system that contributed to the end result and so do what we can to fix them.

[de facto]

If i read correctly the approach was a NONE PRECISION one.....wait im not finished..:E
It was i believe a VOR approach slightly offset,with the SUN in their face...
As someone posted[QUOTE]Hooligan Bill
*
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Box Hill or Bust
Posts: 152
Simple answer: Leave runway approach and runway lighting on during hours of operation, therefore no chance of misidentification.

Leave these damn light ons,dont cut cost!!but greece...not really the time for extra costs i guess.

I feel for the crew and im sure they will for ever remember this mistake and this will never catch them again...

Briefing about PApis relative to runway is a goodnadd on to a brief... LIGHT system in VFR, yes VFR DAY LIGHT,we need lights with the sun in the face!:suspect:
Yes it is a runway used as a taxiway..glad outcome was ok.

[500 above]

De Facto

Firstly, 29 has an ILS which was serviceable that day.

Secondly, Cyprus is not Greece. It just happens to be a Greek speaking island.

[de facto]

They flew an ils and then offset to the 'taxiway'?Sh,,,i t
aplogies, yes cyprus is not greece...no offense intended...its just full of people running away from justice:E
Loved the place when i went there...

[500 above]

Check what I said...

"Firstly, 29 has an ILS which was serviceable that day"

Your comment

"they flew an ILS and then offset to the 'taxiway'"

What do you think? Does that sound logical? No...

As far as "people running away from justice" - what does that have to do with this thread, and what the heck do you mean by that?

[de facto]

I meant they flew an ils..so in order to land on the taxiway the must have done an offset when they decided to fly visually, an ils as far as i know is pretty accurate lateraly:E

Concerning my other remark, Cyprus does not extradite.

[500 above]

De Facto

Rather obviously, it would appear the crew did not fly an ILS or this would never have happened.

Cyprus, being a full EU member certainly does extradite. Perhaps you are thinking of the breakaway TRNC state in the north, which only Turkey recognises. Not that Asil Nadir has anything to do with Thomson...

[de facto]

Point(S) taken.
So training flight?raw data practice?then yes maybe briefing was lacking...

[FBW390]

So training flight?raw data practice?then yes maybe briefing was lacking...

Training flight? raw data? Maybe it was the case...Yes, you might align on what is not a rwy. But that highlights my point: on short final check you will touchdown on the touchdown zone markings! Why do you think they are there?
If they are not there at all? No rwy markings? No rwy number? GO AROUND! It was not a rwy!
You don't land on a piece of concrete because it's wider or longer than a rwy!:ugh:

And this is real life safety, not armchair ppruner tips;

[crazypilot]

Just curious to know...why at this airport are the taxiway & runway the "wrong way around"?...ie runway closer to the terminal than the taxiway? Are there pylons/masts in the way on short approach to the "taxiway"?

Surely it would make more sense for the "runway" to be the strip of tarmac further away...otherwise all taxiing aircraft are going to have to cross the active runway each time for take-off and landing?

Surely just makes more sense from an airport operations point-of-view, as well as for a safety one.

Taxiway is also quite a bit longer than the runway..surely they could put that to good use?

CP

[FBW390]

Crazypilot,
Maybe the twy is not built as a rwy! I mean, the PCN may be too low...

[riverrock83]

Would designating the runway 29L instead of just 29 make this much more obvious our would it make pilots complacent at other airports?

[sammymoyo]

well for starters i think having it as 29L helps with little clarity.but then again as pilots it does not matter how small the info may seem,we need it regardless...it helps in many ways but one.

[smith747]

Link to Cyprusus Mail story

UK plane lands on wrong runway in Paphos - Cyprus Mail (http://www.cyprus-mail.com/aviation/uk-plane-lands-wrong-runway-paphos/20110923)

[Mowgli]

They made a mistake; they are human; humans make mistakes. Humans make more mistakes when they are tired. Paphos and back in a day is a long shift. Who knows what their rosters had them doing before? It will all be looked into. They work for a charter company, and at the end of the knackering summer season they are probably dulled by cumulative fatigue. The proposed Euro FTL changes will exacerbate the problem. What happened here just is the sort of mistake that usually diligent and professional people make when they are tired.

Some of the comments here are no doubt made by people who've never actually experienced an airline roster.

[FBW390]

Mowgli,
At least be sure I have experienced airline roster for years and years now; short, medium and long haul; right and left seat...That's why I mostly give suggestions and not only comments;
Yes, you are right, after such a summer season you have a lot of accumulated fatigue; it has obviously played a big role it that huge mistake;

[flieng]

At one time Thomson pilots were deemed (mainly by themselves) to be 2nd to none and used "rigorous" initial testing to enter the Company (along with the occasional unfair discrimination). This, I believe is about the third such serious incident in 2 years. Either their recruitment policy is flawed or indiscipline and arrogance has crept back in to the Pilot workforce, again!

[Mowgli]

flieng

The arrogant ones are pilots who think that they are not capable of making a mistake like this. The best selection procedures won't guarantee preventing errors. If you want to reduce errors, reduce fatigue. Also, look at safety culture. An organisation practicing good safety culture accepts that errors are inevitable, adopts practices to mitigate against them, and learns from making them or almost making them. We can all learn from the mistake made at Paphos. There have been some great suggestions here which could prevent this happening again (eg annotating L and R runway designators).

[cresmer]

I think he is likely to be spot on the money

[beamer]

Mowgli

Thank you for some sensible comments upon this issue - certainly the introduction of 29L/29R designation would help in the future.

[Jonty]

I think reading the Airfield Plate before making an approach would be a more cost effective way of preventing a reoccurrence. :E

[Willard Whyte]

Pah. If it was here I might have some sympathy:

http://img.airnav.com/aptdiag/FAA/06039AD.gif

The taxiways stand out almost as much as the runways.

EDIT: Yes, briefing the plate at TOD is always a sound plan.

[BN2A]

Ah, the two groups of pilots. Those who have made a mistake, and those who haven't made a mistake yet....

There by the grace of God, etc etc....

[Big Trevor]

I recognise that I regularly make mistakes and miss things; thats one reason why there's 2 of us up there. Briefings before ToD can be really effective or pointless depending on if you are just regurgitating plates or chatting through the 'how' you are actually gonna do something; what you are looking for and some what-ifs?

PFO is a long day out, but flying out there is only half way in to that long day (stating the bleeding obvious but hopefully you are not that fatigued to be drained after 3.5hrs) and the visual on to 29 was good fun; but I always had the ILS tuned too so a quick glance at that as I swung round on to finals backed up what my eyes were telling me.

Isn't it military to the north of the rwy hence the taxiway that side?

Would never comment on the guys as aviation is a great leveler.

[vespasia]

You'd love to think that r/w lights on at all times would be possible, but I'm sure the beancounters would kill that idea in no time.

In the Gatwick Air Malta incident (at night) the runway and taxiway lighting was all displayed correctly and the crew still landed on the taxiway. Changes were subsequently made so that no taxiway lights are now visible when landing on the northern runway i.e. at night you can't see there's a taxiway there until after you vacate.

The idea of adding r/w markings to the taxiway also sounds good, but creates a 2nd runway with all of the regulations and procedures that have to go with it - again, expensive, and doesn't necessarily remove the problem. If LCPH had a 29L would that really stop an aircraft landing on it instead of 29R since now the only difference is the runway numbers?

The best hope for preventing this kind of thing is to understand why the crew made the error (whether through fatigue/poor visual cues or any of the other factors already mentioned) and I hope the investigation approaches the incident in such a way as to make that possible.

[macdo]

Big Trev,
your comment on fatigue may be true if their previous duties were Days Off. Most likely, their roster was like mine, where Pafos is the 2nd. or third duty after an very early start on Saturday. Usually finishes with a delightful night trip to Bodrum, where I can tell you I'm well whacked on the outbound sector. (please, no TSGR tonight!). I'm not excusing the error, but like all a/c accidents, multiple factors lead up to it.

IMHO all these Eastern Med flights to Cyprus and Egypt should be Level 2 variations or nightstops. Airlines are so desparate to save a few dollars/quid that they stretch us to breaking point and then wonder why we make mistakes.:ugh:

[Smudger]

Macdo agreed.. as all of us that do this know it's not just what you've done in the days leading up to a trip but it's the result of long term fatigue after doing such flights throughout the summer... it takes it's toll.. bean counters will never take that on board.. "it's legal so get on with it".. hopefully the accident that is waiting to happen (and nearly did at Paphos) won't be too costly. I'm not criticising that crew in any way.

[Mowgli]

I could not agree more with the last 2 posts. All bean counters take note!! Being safe may cost you but nothing compared to the cost of a hull loss..:=

[EGCC4284]

@flieng

Hope you are well wherever you are ?

You said along with the occasional unfair discrimination

Sorry you still feel this way after so long. My sim partner when I was doing my type rating on the 737 back in 2007 was an ex Britannia eng, so things did chnage although I think he had left the company and worked in Europe contracting for a while before returning ?

You also said Either their recruitment policy is flawed or indiscipline and arrogance has crept back in to the Pilot workforce, again!

I don't think this has anything to do with making a mistake on the day ?

Just to add, I was with Thomson for 3 years and flew to Paphos once, at night time in the dark. Would still class myself as never been.

Thoughts with the crew and hope they are back flying soon.

Great bunch of guys and apart from the new management that came with the merger, great company to work for. Would hve stayed there until I retired, but, thats life. Now getting use to the 320 and the dessert :-) and in no rush what so ever to return to the UK

[BOAC]

IMHO all these Eastern Med flights to Cyprus and Egypt - well, I have worked a busy charter roster over several years, and a fairly unforgiving BA 737 shorthaul roster out of Gatwick in the past (TLV and back standard day, not even Level2?).

Whilst I sympathise with the sentiment, I think that to ask for Level 2 on 'Cyprus and Egypt' is unreasonable. Several longer Egypt flight do fall into Level2, and Cyprus is not that long a day.

[Sleeve Wing]

>>Cyprus is not that long a day.<<

Used to do LCA and return out of BFS in a 734. Sometimes took over 5 hours to get back and just final reserve on the ramp from full tanks. Brain working like stink from Greece onwards, to make sure we got it right. Thank goodness for good F/Os and also to other aircraft willing to swap levels so we could get out of the winds.

Yep, BOAC, only a 2 sector day but right on FTL limits (without taxying times). One was expected to not end up in STA, EMA or MCR.

Oh, yes, TCI/rtb. the day before and 4 sector BGO/PMI the day after; min rest.

No, not that long a day..............but I'm sure you have further horror stories.

Crews have been used for years. Admit it. :ugh:

[BOAC]

but I'm sure you have further horror stories - haven't we all? Night NCL-LCA-NCL with tank over-ride in LCA to get the fuel on? I'm not sure that swapping 'war stories' is any good, though. My point remains - it does not need to be L2. A day LCA out of BFS should be well inside the 13 1/4 'old money' FDP let alone the blessed 'new'?

No-one is suggesting it was enjoyable, nor was LGW-TLV-LGW on a Classic (5:15 each way with a 1:15 turn) but it was do-able, even if excess (30%) discretion eventually caused the 'sleeping regulator' to step in (and it went to a 3 day main-line trip, poor dears:))Crews have been used for years. Admit it..- of course, but did they still take the job?

[papa600]

Just returned from PFO (passenger) and cannot for the life of me see how two pilots can each / together mistake the taxi way for the runway under any circumstances. From the ground and from the air not to mention a chart for reference it just seems impossible.

No markings on the taxiway whatsoever - clearly visible runway markings - piano bars, numbers, centerline and heavy tyre marks all down the landing areas of the main runway from the passenger seat after departure and turning downwind at 3-4 miles - even if not visible on approach from far out surely to god clearly visible on short finals.

[BOAC]

papa - more important to focus on WHY they did and not why they should not have done. They did.

[Nubboy]

Papa 600. Thank you for your informed comments.

I too have been to PFO, except I was up front. We took a visual to avoid heavy showers in the afternoon. Wet tarmac (reflective surface), into sun, ground markings not visible. I can see all too easily how such a mistake could happen.

Neither you nor I were on that flight deck that day. Neither of us can pass judgement on how they made such an error.

[oceanhawk]

When the chaps turned up in the crew room and when they did their approach brief, i am sure they did not brief to land on the taxiway !

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Mowgli
I guess when the Cypriot investigation is published it will mention what the crew did prior (albeit they normally state number of fly/duty hours)
Then and only then can you summise what bean counters should be thinking.
Currently its 50/50 on you eating humble pie

[BitMoreRightRudder]

papa600

You are passing judgement from the confines of a window that faces sideways? You sure that is a good basis for comment?

In a similar vein to what Nubboy said, I've landed at PFO, I can see how this could have happened. If it happened to them it could happen to another crew. Hence most of us would rather find out why, and avoid joining the ranks of armchair quarterback.

[OverRun]

FBW390 - thanks for your useful summary of markings a couple of pages ago; I've just had to look at turning a runway into a taxiway and leaving it available for possible emergency use at a later stage. You made a good start on the markings to be removed . . .

Before touching down always check quickly it is a rwy! It must have: Threshold markings, touchdown markings, fixed distance marks, and a runway number!!! There is nothing of that? The runway number is wrong? GO AROUND

[talkpedlar]

I wonder what fellow Ppruners think is the appropriate treatment of crews by their airline-employer in cases such as this. Sack'em? Retraining? Tap on the wrists?

On the one hand, in this particular case, there was a happy ending.

On the other, it could be argued that the error was serious, unforgiveable and could have resulted in a tragedy.

Any opinions? Please?

[d71146]

There are various schools of opinion including the flight sim specialists pontificating on this.
Personally I think we should wait for the official report to be published before some folk on here hang the boys out to dry.

[Green Guard]

we need to start thinking about present runway markings and LIGHTINGS seen from 1 Nm or less in APP, and whether they are ideal and safe.

PS. even a double check for your runway using FMS shall bring you to correct airport but NOT NECESSARYLY to correct runway.

[PPRuNeUser0190]

As a side note :)
I just went there 2 days ago. I don't think anyone will be landing on the taxiway now... It was CAVOK and the full approach lighting system was on.

[Lancman]

This is a classic chain-of-events incident.


1. An airport is built at Paphos with a parallel taxiway on the opposite side of the field to the terminal building.


2. The United nations embargoes the export of arms from Iran.


3. A U.S. Navy ship intercepts a Cyprus registered ship in the Red Sea carrying arms from Iran to Syria and orders it to Limassol, it's port of registry.


4. The Cyprus Government orders the unloading of 2,000 tons of explosives and ammunition and stores it next to the Island's main power station.


5. Two years pass by. BANG! Severe electricity rationing is enforced.


6. Two pilots with the Sun in their eyes approach 2 similar strips of tarmac, neither of which is lit but only one of which is marked with paint. They land on the wrong one.


7. Return to item 1, or 4, or 5, or 6.


Fortunately no harm was done but a long chain had been forged and lain unnoticed for a long time: it's lucky that it only lead to a banana skin!

[cambridge]

Lancman. Thank you. As you say, "a classic chain-of-events incident". We got there in the end. Thank you again. :D :ugh::ugh:

[Out Of Trim]

Sorry Lancman, I don't see the connections!! :rolleyes:

[Bobbsy]

Out Of Trim, THIS (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/cyprus/8629594/Cyprus-explosion-knocks-out-islands-electricity-plant.html) might explain why there was no lighting on the runway or taxiway at Paphos.

[500 above]

The airport area has had no power cuts since the explosion. Also, both PFO and LCA have large banks of backup generators.

[Shiny side down]

Several years ago, when taxiing out at Linate, we were confronted by an Alitalia making a very stable approach to the Taxiway! Nice clear day, from our position on the ground. All of our lights on, and a very busy ATC frequency, so we couldn't get a word in.

Fortunately, they realised their mistake, and made a very obvious turn to the correct runway at what appeared to be fairly low height (we guessed about 300feet) and all ended happily.

It happens.

Many things that happen in aviation can be looked at from a number of perspectives. But once it's happened, one most important thing is to understand the 'why', to avoid the repeat as best we can.
I'm sure that since this event, a great many of us have been reviewing in greater detail, the presence and orientation of the taxiway at PFO. I'm sure also that there are some who have dismissed the event as something that cannot possibly happen to them.

We can discuss at great length the 'poor choice' of having the runway between the taxiway and the apron, but worldwide, airports have a lot of unique features, and repeatable features. Parallel runways, long parallel taxiways, designated runways that serve as taxiways (DLM 01L is Taxiway F, most of the time). PAPIs on the left/right/both sides. Side step procedures that get thrown at you unsuspecting (unless you briefed it). Obstacles on the approach. Approach lights, unless they are turned off.

I would like to say it will never happen to me. But I am sure I am NOT infallible.
Of the best people that I have flown with, all are cognisant of their ability to make a mistake.
Of the worst people that I have flown with, all are convinced that they are the best, incapable of error, and the mistake is by someone else. (this latter group seem to encounter more problems/incidents, strangely)

[stuckgear]

it's just made news on the daily wail website..

Passenger jet packed with British tourists narrowly avoids disaster... after pilots land it on WRONG side of airport | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061408/Passenger-jet-packed-British-tourists-narrowly-avoids-disaster--pilots-land-WRONG-airport.html)

and from the article...


The incident has also caused heated debate on a respected pilots forum website, with one telling of his disbelief at the blunder and criticising the pilots for missing the runway despite clear markings.
He wrote: 'Pilots miss all the visual clues and land on the taxiway. I'd be afraid to get on board with these two professionals.'



The 'media' sees us as a respected pilots forum !

... just hope the media don't wander into T&E

[Sciolistes]

The incident has also caused heated debate on a respected pilots forum website, with one telling of his disbelief at the blunder and criticising the pilots for missing the runway despite clear markings.
He wrote: 'Pilots miss all the visual clues and land on the taxiway. I'd be afraid to get on board with these two professionals.'
These things need to be discussed, but we really need an aircrew only private forum to discuss these things away from ignorant eyes and possible manipulation.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Why do the Daily Wail insist that there is a p in Thomson whenever they write about them?

[stuckgear]

These things need to be discussed, but we really need an aircrew only private forum to discuss these things away from ignorant eyes and possible manipulation.


True, but also in respect to the meeja; when have the facts ever prevented a good story?

[silverstrata]

If flight crew have been diligently filing reports on how such confusion can arise at PFO, then this crew may have an easier time of it. If PFO isn't that much of a problem, or as is often the case, crew are reluctant to report the potential hazard then the problem will be harder to work with and crew may not be as prepared as perhaps they should be.



Come off it, chum. Responsible safety reporting went out of aviation with the advent of a certain Irish airline and Low Standards flying.

Too much safety reporting results in P45s, because it slows the operation down and makes it safer. And the CAA don't give a damn, because they are wimps who quake at the knees at the sound of an Irish accent. Best keep the head down, and keep the wife and kids in with a roof over their heads (and that's just the CAA desk jockeys, not the flight crew.)

[blind pew]

Sadly Silverstrata you are only too right.

Made two reports to the IAA which got "lost", eventually spoke to one of the overseers who virtually told me that I was a liar.

The one I didn't report was when one carrier lined up on the closed runway at MRS and only burnt the approach around 500ft when even a blind man could see the tipper trucks and rollers on the runway - we landed 15 mins later.

But don't be too hard on the Irish it goes on in many countries.

[silverstrata]

But don't be too hard on the Irish it goes on in many countries


Indeed. I was actually talking abut the UK CAA, who are more in fear of an Irish accent than anyone else in Europe.

[carbonfibre]

It's great how opinion is divided, TOM pilots defending, then state wait for the report......so wait for the report

Also - Re-training should always be considered.

Mistakes happen, however if there had been a plane on the taxi way would we all have been saying the same?

We are assuming that none of the crew had been there before also.

It's good to squalk :-)

[Hotel Tango]

Since visibility at the time was not that bad, I suspect that if there had been an aeroplane on the taxiway they would have realised their error and simply gone around and no one apart from the F/D would have been any the wiser.

[Checkboard]

I went to Pafos for the first time today. I have to say: the taxi way is the same colour, same orientation, the PAPI is between the two (so looks like it could apply to either) ... and the configuration is unusual in that the taxiway is opposite the terminal side.

It's an easy mistake for an unwary pilot ...

[Shaman]

According to my Navtechs, the PAPIs for RWs 11 and 29 are indeed on the LHS.

The RW is nearer to the terminal than the parallel taxiway.

If you are approaching RW 11 then the PAPI is between the RW and the taxiway; if you are approaching RW 29 then the PAPI is not between them.

[Racing Snake]

The PAPIs are not in between rwy 29 and the taxiway they are to the left of the RWY.

[aergid]

I have been informed of an URAL Airways Aircraft landing on the same Taxiway in PFO this morning!!!!!

More to follow.....:uhoh:

[Smudger]

Checkboard... no pilot should be "unwary", especially on approach.. and there is no way you can mistake the runway for the parallel taxyway at Paphos.. I have flown in there several times , including yesterday, and I still can't figure out how anyone can manage to land on the wrong piece of tarmac.

[HPbleed]

Smudger - had you flown in therefor the first time in exactly the same conditions as the TOM then who's to say? CAVOK it might be easy to differentiate but in a setting sun with a bit of haze it could be really tricky.I'm sure the Air France boys would have looked astounded at anyone who pulled back in a stall and said they would never have done that, but look what happened...

[yeoman]

If there is no way you can confuse the two Smudger then how the hell did these guys do it:mad:

They must have done it deliberately, for ****s and giggles maybe?

Still, if they did do it deliberately, just for ****s and giggles, they are both a whole world safer than you because you are clearly infallible as your assertion that something that couldn't happen ( but still did) would attest.

Oh, and BTW, I know both of these guys personally and no way did they do it deliberately, even for etc

[yeoman]

And of course there is no way someone else could do it again.

[Christodoulidesd]

Article this morning in the biggest Greek newspaper of the island confirms It but says its not the taxiway they used but the parallel secondary runway used by the military base which sits inside the airport and next to the civil aircraft facilities. Article says Russian airline with 123 pax and pilot apologiSed immediatedly after realizing his mistake. http://www.philenews.com/el-gr/Eidiseis-Kypros/22/111259/se-lathos-diadromo-prosgeiothike-rosiko-aeroskafos-stin-pafo

[Ed Set]

There IS no parallel second runway-it's a taxiway-and marked as such!!

[500 above]

Correct, but the Jepp 10-1P states TWY B (parallel twy) may be used for arriving and departing traffic, and indeed has been used as such.

[A and C]

It is a Military standby runway and so bigger that your average taxiway......that is way it attracts the eye of pilots.

You are correct that it is marked as a taxiway however you are unlikely to see these markings untill you are committed to a landing or go around, what is most unlikely is for an aircraft to land on the military standby runway/ taxiway if another aircraft was on it as these incidents all happen in daytime VMC.

I agree that this is a problem at this airfield and perhaps it should be addressed by putting a white strobe light each side of the runway threshold to attract the eye of pilots on approach.

What won't stop this happening is sixteen pages of posts telling these pilots what idiots they are, it is clear that this airfield tricks pilots into making a mistake and so measures should be taken by the airport authority's to make the mistakes less likely.

As for those who still think these pilots are idiots for making this mistake that you could not possibly make it is time to take a look at your attitude because if you don't it is only a matter of time before you are the subject of pages of "advice" from the pprune guild of perfect pilots.

[BN2A]

Daytime VMC.. Exactly!!! At night, you can't see ANYTHING except the runway in the surrounding blackness....

Daytime, if there was an aircraft on the taxiway it would be seen, therefore sidestep to runway or go-around!!

Problem needs to be addressed by Paphos Airport/Cypriot CAA, and not by the Guild of Perfect Pilots previously mentioned!!

:=

[500 above]

Problem needs to be addressed by Paphos Airport/Greek CAA, and not by the Guild of Perfect Pilots previously mentioned!!

I do agree with you, with the exception that it would be the Cyprus DCA, not the Greek CAA - wrong country. Hermes Airports as the operator of the airport should also be taking an active interest in sorting this problem out.

Rumour has it that after the Tfly incident they were going to mark them as 29L/R but obviously that's not happened.

[Smudger]

To my critics... of course I'm not infallible but I stand by what I say. When I make a similar mistake then I will eat my words. Fair enough ?

[Shytehawk]

Smudger,

You are the perfect example of those on whom CRM and a reporting culture are totally wasted. I just hope that when you make your first ever mistake that you don't take others with you.

[nosmo king]

Having operated into/out of PFO for the 15 years I have sat on the apron and watched civil and military aircraft, from first world airlines and first world countries line up on the taxiway and then make jink to the left when they realised they were looking at the "wrong RW". I can only conclude therefore its an incident/accident waiting to happen and will happen again.

There for the grace of god go I.

[Chronus]

Just cannot see what all the fuss is all about. Some have landed on runways already occupied , others have piggy backed on those already there, some have run off the end, there have been those who have landed on runways that are not on their FP to find no terminal building anywhere in sight. Tuning in the ILS is not exactly a guarantee of success either, eg slight finger trouble in dialling up Monsieur DeGaulles instead of Le Bourget can certainly improve your vocabulary in Gallic argo. What could have happened is not the same as what happened and is there a lesson to be learned, no I don`t think so.

[Smudger]

Shyte, .... all I said was I couldn't understand how the two runways could be confused ! I find your remarks insulting and uncalled for. You assume far too much about me. I have been flying professionally, both military and civil, for 40 years (which I know is no guarantee of current performance) and I do have a sound understanding of what CRM/airmanship is all about. I will take no further part in the discussion on this thread.

[GAPSTER]

Aha...the withdrawal method.Not 100% guaranteed to work:E

[BOAC]

The POW camp was full of Army officers who had sworn to die rather than surrender - paraphrase the Goon Show:)

[yeoman]

Smudger

"When" you make that mistake is a bit late. Why not learn from this saga and instead of saying it can't happen, when it has, twice, try thinking.

IMHO the fact that you started your flying career in the military some 40 years ago reinforces Shytehawks comments.........:hmm:

And if you have a difference of opinion with your FO (big assumption you are a Capt), do you withdraw into your corner of the flightdeck in a hissy fit then too?:E

[WindSheer]

Smudger

You made a comment (oh and I am not trying to turn this into a lets gang up on smudger post) :

I still can't figure out how anyone can manage to land on the wrong piece of tarmac.

The risk of landing on the taxiway at this airfield (with a slightly abnormal arrangement - taxiway furthest from the terminal) was obviously not covered in the approach brief otherwise it would have stuck out like a saw thumb. Because of this it can be all too easy to miss the bigger picture with nothing to pull the mindset away from landing on the strip ahead. Add a bit of fatigue or stress and it becomes even harder.

I have no doubt that the two drivers will look at that approach dozens of times over the coming years and still not believe what they did, because they are human and that is what we do.............:\

[Smudger]

Thank you Windsheer, some common sense and reason displayed at last ... now I'm out of here.

[cyflyer]

Was sitting in the back seat of a Piper Senecca a few weeks ago, and this is a photo of the aforementioned runway and taxiway, I took as we approached. Not my best of photos as I was a bit queazy at the time, but hopefully this will help the discussion as to which is the runway and which is the taxiway.

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/eurocypria/DSC_5079.jpg

[Pub User]

Smudger's comment puts it quite well (my underlining):

all I said was I couldn't understand how the two runways could be confused

:)

[A and C]

Nice photo on a nice day presented to people who are in a low workload situation.

Now what is the view like when the sun is going down in the west, there is a bit of haze, no aircraft in view and you are doing the landing checklist?

This mistake has been made by a few people now so it is a bit of a trap and not clear as your photo might sugest........ Oh and the approach lights are on , not something I have seen a lot of during daytime landings at PFO.

[BN2A]

10,001 metres viz and late afternoon sun is still CAVOK... Looks nothing like the photo though!!

As for lights, you can't see the PAPI's until the last mile or two, even when it is clear!!

:uhoh:

[papa600]

OK lets assume that due to late afternoon haze etc none of the obvious RW markings / lights are clear. All you can see are two parallel "landing" strips

How exactly does this then cause someone to confuse right as being left?

[yeoman]

And there we have exactly the question: It is not a question as to whether or not it can be done despite assertions to the contrary. The question is, HOW or perhaps more pertinently, WHY?

Shortly after this event I received 4 emails from people who had managed to line up with the taxiway at PFO in exactly the conditions described, low sun, haze, pale tarmac blending with dry grass etc. Happily, all 4 spotted the error in time to make a correction and there is now a focus on catching the "nearly" safety events.

I can make it 5. A few years ago a very senior Captain with vast experience lined up with the taxiway. I spoke up and the correction was made in good time so no issue. His comment after shut down was one I try to remember - "I've been flying for 40+ years and I never cease to be amazed at the new ways I still find to :mad: up and the number of scenarios I still see for the first time". I regret that we didn't consider filing a report, a regret echoed in all 4 emails above.

As for the how or why, I have no idea although there were extenuating circumstances.

The lights I believe are now always on as a result of this incident and the findings from the investigation.

And I'm sure you will have seen that a military type has just managed the same trick in the Tampa FL area, landing not on a taxiway but at a nearby municipal airport. Again, how, why?:(

[Spitoon]

Ok, I'm not a professional pilot - but I was a controller for many years with a similar interest in making sure things happen right.

I think yeoman has summed things up very neatly - rather than saying I would do anything as daft as that we should be looking for the WHY....and then doing whatever we can to fix the underlying causes. It's in everyone's interest!

And one other thing that strikes me is the difference between yeoman's Captain's "I've been flying for 40+ years and I never cease to be amazed at the new ways I still find to :mad: up and the number of scenarios I still see for the first time" and the rather different attitudes expressed by some other ostensibly very experienced posters. :ugh:

[tom775257]

Some high intensity strobe LDIN 'running rabbit' lights would stop this happening again I reckon.

[beamer]

Yeoman

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the incident in question please don't go down the pointless route of bringing up the age old Civil/Military issue.

Beamer - civ/mil flying for your company !

[waveskimmer]

CYFLYER

A tad late on the roundout,Hoskins :E

[PPRuNeUser0178]

When I fly into PFO I always keep the AP in and do the procedural ILS. We always seem to arrive when the sun is low in the west. Thomson a/c more often than not are screaming in behind me on a visual expressing a bit of frustration in their tone that the ezy is slow and in their way. When my autopilot takes the LOC I am reasonably happy I'm pointing at the correct bit of Tarmac. Going visual into PFO from the west to land west means dumping height if you actually want to make a shorter approach than the procedure prescribes, to achieve this I have heard countless Thomson a/c declaring their intention to go visual at 14000-20000 feet. In my mind this involves speed brake, high speed etc etc to get that height off so you don't have to wander all the way out as far as the procedure states. So high, fast, no radar cover and then you turn finals with a low sun on your face and increased workload.

More than once I have urged caution to FO's wanting to go visual early on and they have been might surprised at the viz when they turn finals as when tracking east in cavok and the airfield in front of you this problem is just not apparant.

I don't know if the crew in question were in this scenario at all, but I am well aware of the pitfalls of deciding on an early visual decision going into PFO and for that reason I'm afraid I continue to frustrate those behind me desperate to save 2 mins by asking for a visual approach at 15000 feet.

[BOAC]

ezyd - as one of the 'visual' when I can' brigade in my time, I would point out that the procedure is still 'long-stopped' since it is (in my experience) - and indeed company policy - the 'norm' to have the ILS selected for the runway of 'intended landing' even on a visual as a safety check on one's vertical and lateral path, so it should be apparent?

However, you are absolutely right to point out the down sun/up sun phenomenon to the lads and lassies. Ah, takes me back to 420 knots at low level down sun over Germany in the haze and then turning 180..............................:eek:

[windytoo]

Exactly, turning back 180 degrees into Brit VFR.

[yeoman]

Beamer

yep, I have absolutely no issue with the ex military, I'm one too although non flying!! I do have an issue with some ex military who appear to believe that experience is somehow a counter to all things stupid. All experience is vaild to some degree or another, it's a question of how you use it.

And it's not my company. :E

I just happen to work for it. Slavishly at times it appears.:ugh:

[westie]

ezyd - unbelievable post. Good job you don't wear caps or your head wouldn't fit in it anymore. Are you the one pilot I have been dying to meet who has never put a foot wrong.....oh and before I finish i remember this cowboy of an ezy pilot who.......oh but that would not be doing the right thing to admonish a fellow professional.

PS - thought you'd like to know a couple of weeks ago I was 'cut up' by and ezy airbus when taxying out at pmi. He totally ignored the clearance he was given. That can't have been you though I guess.

[Smudger]

To my detractors..... you are all so clever aren't you ... I'm so glad that I am leaving this site comfortable in the knowledge that it is in the safe hands of people who know everything there is to know about aviation and aren't afraid to say so. Goodbye and good riddance.

[svhar]

I have to agree with the 'O' bird, even if it hurts. If you are doing a visual, you have the plates in front of you and all the navaids tuned.

If you see two strips that look like a runway, you land on the runway that the chart depicts, be it left or right. Regardless of a setting sun. A visual does not mean throwing the charts away and shutting down the navaids. And doing a visual into a setting sun might not be that bright either.

Either you are visual or not.

[westie]

svhar - ah another perfect pilot, so pleased to meet you as well, i bow my head to you.

You know it's well known amongst the professional pilot community that if you think you've completed the perfect fligtht then it's time to retire as you're becoming complacent and possibly a danger. It's worrying in the extreme to read posts from ezydriver and svhar who seem to be exactly that, the perfect pilot. God help those who fly with you.

[cyflyer]

A tad late on the roundout, Hoskinswaveskimmer, LOL , very observant. Unfortunately I'm only a backseat rider so don't want to comment on what you pros know. It was a very very choppy day and we were rolling and pitching non stop, and the novice pilot was practising touch-n-goes, and nature had decided that my day was not going to end well.

On some of the discussed above, an ex-Eurocypria SFO friend of mine did say to me regarding this discussion, that while with Eurocypria and on visual approach to said airfield in conditions of low setting sun, his captain of 20 yrs experience did line up with said taxiway also, until being reminded by my friend and going into 're-alignment' mode in due time. And those guys supposedly know that airfield like the back of their hand.

There is another aspect to this also. Ural airlines, Russians. The previous week, the Aeroflot Il96 came in for a heavy landing at LCA, bursting a few of his tyres, veering off the runway, and effectively closing the runway for a while as the mess, and Il96 were cleared up, I believe there was an emergency evacuation. The previous week, a Transaero 747 coming in at LCA, again in perfect early evening conditions, at about 100ft of the deck, aborted and did a go around for no apparent reason to the hundreds of people watching from the beach (including myself) . That was 3 out of 3 incidents/events to the Russians. As Boney M said in one of their songs, "oh those Russians !"

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Yes Westie I am that perfect pilot you have been dying to meet, I never make mistakes and caps are not made big enough to cover my knoweladgable brain.

Despite the matter that all I reported was based on nothing more than my experience of flying into PFO when I am usually surrounded by a large proportion of the Thomson fleet you have some how deduced that I am attacking my fellow pilot?

I reported nothing more than facts observed by me into PFO. Often I find myself in between Thomsons who have gone visual at an early stage and when I turn in to the ILS the viz has been crap.

This incident happened and unlike others I am not asking how on earth they could have made such a mistake, but I do see a trend of visual approaches into PFO from this particular airline, FACT, and the low sun causes issues FACT, a Thomson a/c landed on the taxi way FACT. Am I incapable of making a mistake, make them every day, FACT. Knowing the problems with PFO I pointed out how I tackle it to prevent such mistakes iny operation having learned from others missfortunes and advice FACT.

If passing this on in trying to answer the questions about why this continues to happen and what we can do about it harms you I can only assume you have a fragile ego and don't take well to a bit of frank discussion that learns from others experiences.

The guys involved in this will probably have done much sole searching as to how they possibly could have done this. We try to break the chain of events, this event may well have commenced at the point "tell them we are visual" was muttered in the flight deck or it might not have.

Either way it gives us all the opportunity to learn from it and I am grateful for that, you clearly want to pick a fight.

I would suggest your post has said more about you than mine did about me.

Thank you for reminding me why I never post on here much these days though.

My children could have provided me with the response you did.

[rmac]

Sounds to me like Easy has some professionals who do a little extra to make sure they are in the right groove. Any idiot can be unprepared, a real professional can enjoy a visual safe in the knowledge that he/she have backed themselves up against the unexpected Mr Murphy.

[jonseagull]

After 20 years of going visual into PFO, and thoroughly enjoying it, I am amazed how it has suddenly apparently become such a difficult airport to operate into. Come on chaps. It's just one of these things. They happen every now and again in our business.

[Shytehawk]

These thing will happen. 90% of us will say " There but for luck goes I" and try and learn from and hopefully avoid such incidents in the future. !0% will learn nothing from it and insist that it will never happen to them as they are too perfect. It is interesting that when Smudger found that the majority of posts opposed his opinion he threw his toys out of the pram and said that he was not going to play any more. That said it all. I know that the two guys, or gals, who were involved will have learned a lot and it will never happen to them again. I believe, also, that many others will have gained something from this. If I learned one thing from my 40 years in military and civil aviation, it was that I was far from perfect and that the day that I thought that I was, was the day to retire.

Safe and enjoyable flying to you all.

[papa600]

Smudger and Ezydriver have both posted sensible, informative and valid points as experienced professionals flying this route. However because they have not closed ranks but chosen to challenge the opinions of those defending the original mishap as one of those things that can happen to anyone are now subjected to something more akin to the playground.

[BOAC]

We should also remember that it is not just PFO where we can have 'problems, as per my post about low flying in RAFG. ANY airport where the air is hazy and you go from down to up sun can catch the unwary. Having an approach aid (which SHOULD be SOP) to back up the 'visual' is vital and a quick shufti over the shoulder when downwind, back towards the field, before a final decision is made is a very good idea.

[A and C]

My exact thoughts on the right way to go about a visual approach, but I have noticed that pilots of some airlines are very reluctant to make visual approaches even on very good VFR days.

I can't help thinking that there is more than a little de-skilling going on in some airlines and this usually accompanied by aggressive use of FDM.

[WindSheer]

EZYD

From my angle you are displaying some very positive CRM markers, don't let the ego of others influence you into thinking otherwise......

I am with your way of thinking...:ok:

[JOSHUA]

Having operated into Paphos myself, Ezydriver makes some very valid points and certainly does not come across as egotistical.
We all operate at different levels that we feel comfortable with, Ezydriver's 'line in the sand' may well be different to mine - whether opting for an ILS or visual should not matter provided we thoroughly brief and share our mental models.
Westie - your comments help no-one, the majority of us realise we can make mistakes, which I suggest is why Ezydriver shared his experience and methods to manage the threats at this airfield.

[westie]

Joshua - maybe my comments don't help anyone however consider the comments from ezyd where he appears to be continually taking a swipe at TOM crews as a result of the unfortunate incident. I will say no more on this subjext as it;s pointless apart from....there for the grace of God go I.....incidents can happen to anyone and we should all learn from it rather than taking apparent pleasure from others misfortunes.