OZ ATPL is enough to work in UK

[biggles72]

Can someone set the record straight.....

I have heard that an unfrozen Aussie Atpl will suffice to get a job in Europe (UK I am mainly talking about)

I have heard that the demand for pilots is so great that an Aussie ATPL will be enopugh to land a job. I heard the company will organise an ICAO licence conversion (no JAR required)and you can start work.

If the demand is so high for pilots, why dont British companies "sponser" eligable pilots like myself? That would solve alot of the pilot shortage problems they have.

Also, can i get a full work visa to work in the UK because i am I "professional" with a skill in demand in the UK? and Australia is still a member of the commonwealth

I wish to aviod the entire JAR licence conversion and UK ATPL theory thing, so i what i have heard is correct, it would be a bonus.

Any comments

[AYLGR]

Sorry, no shortage of pilots with new licences in the UK. I have never heard of this proposal before and doubt it would happen.

Bob

[biggles72]

was refeering to pilots with experience not "new pilots" but thanks for the reply, I can only hope you are wrong

[towser]

If you want to avoid the JAR license conversion then stay out of the UK!

[Flintstone]

I think this is one for throber69.

[PURPLE PITOT]

throber69 is in india annoying the locals, but i shall point out this thread when he returns on sunday.

p.s. see my response on wannabees

[Sheep Guts]

Biggles Mate,
Forget it, unless you have a spare 6 months and $40,000 AUD or if you have 3000hrs heavy time. If you have the latter you may get some exemptions,on some subjects I believe.By all accounts the new JAR Exams are pretty tough, though.Even the locals are having problems passing them.I still cant understand the reason for making it tough for us colonials.To convert to the U.S. Canadian or others, is much more user friendly. Maybe back in Oz, we need to adjust our conversion requirements to make it HARDER,NOT :rolleyes:!
Wake up Europe its a Global Community out there, your airspace surely isnt thicker than ours http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif! :) :) :)

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Props are for boats!Unless its a Kingair.

[DirectNewGalloway]

I believe that if I wanted to work in Oz or the US (which I don't) then I would have to convert my UK frozen ATPL, which would involve passing all the relevant exams and IR etc.

I therefore don't see any reason why pilots from these countries shouldn't have to comply with our requirements. Isn't the only reason why there is an influx of ozzies simply because there are not enough jobs for pilots over there?

[BIK_116.80]

biggles72, here is the real story.

To fly a G registered aircraft (UK reg) for hire or reward you will need either :

(1) A UK CPL/ATPL; or,

(2) A JAR CPL/ATPL; or,

(3) A foreign professional flight crew licence which has been validated by the UK CAA.

New UK CPL and ATPLs are not being issued any more, although UK CPL to UK ATPL upgrades are being issued for the next 18 months for people who have already done the UK national written exams.

You can go and do a JAR licence but it will cost you a lot of money, time, heartache and frustration. You should be well aware of the principles of wooden airframe construction and stellar navigation by the end of it though. (ie its a load of useless crap) There is effectively no "conversion" to a JAR licence from a non-JAR member state licence. You have to do 14 written exams and two or three flight tests just like someone off the street with no experience at all. You will also effectively have to do a 26 week ground school at an approved flight school.

Or, there is the licence validation route. You can fly a G registered aircraft for hire or reward on an Australian ATPL as long as it has been "validated" by the UK CAA. The validation process must be initiated by an employer, you can not seek a validation on your own (unless you are also a UK AOC holder). The process costs money and time for the employer and you must hold any needed type ratings on your Australian (or other foreign) ATPL. You are in fact flying G registered aircraft based on your Aussie ATPL. A validation can be used for up to 12 months.

Unfortunately, one of the main reasons why most Aussies volunteer for the lower standard of living in the UK is to seek career advancement onto larger equipment. Here is the trick part, I dont think that any airline will go to the time and expense of trying to organise a validation for you unless you already have substantial time on the type of aircraft they are operating. And while you are on a validation you are tied to that employer and aircraft type. So you dont actually get any career advancement out of it - at least not initially.

Then there is the process of converting the validated foreign licence to a JAR licence. You still need to do all 14 written exams, although you will probably be able to get out of the 26 weeks ground school. You will avoid the expense of the two or three flight tests since your sponsoring airline will have put you through those flight tests in the simulator.

Despite the fact that some UK airlines are parking jets because they cant find captains for them and none of the first officers have enough experience for command, the local unions are opposed to the idea of foreigners flying in the UK. Unless, of course, the year is 1918 or 1942. The word xenophobia does come to mind. You should expect quite poor treatment from the natives when you arrive and during your stay.

So, in short, YES you can get a job and can fly in the UK on an Australian ATPL, but ONLY if you already have substantial time on type and can get an employer to sponsor a licence validation application.

With regard to the right to live and work in the UK, you will need to organise this yourself before an employer will offer you work. The fact that Australia is a member of the Commonwealth of Nations is of no benefit to you in this case. The fact that UK airlines are parking jets due lack of experienced crew is also of no benefit to you with regard to work permits. In order to be allowed to work in the UK you can :

(1) Be a UK or EU citizen yourself; or,

(2) Choose your parents or grandparents (UK citizens); or,

(3) Choose your lover (marry a UK or EU citizen).

Best of luck with it all.


DirectNewGalloway, in enlightened countries pilots who hold foreign professional flight crew qualifications are able to take a genuine conversion exam. In the UK foreign pilots with 10 or 20 years experience are treated like they have never seen an aircraft before and are subjected to a syllabus which has very little relevance to post-war civilian flying. There is currently no genuine conversion process for a JAR licence, and there never was one for a UK licence. It appears that the CAA and now the JAA are using the flight crew licensing process in a political power play with the USA, and to implement protectionist employment policies, rather than for assuring flight safety.

[DirectNewGalloway]

Well BIK the commonwealth thing works both ways. Being in the commonwealth doesn't help Brits wanting to live in Oz so why should we help them?

As for 1942 etc didn't we also send large numbers of troops to the far east to save the desert continent from the Japanese?

At the end of the day the only reason people come to europe to fly is to get jet time and then bugger off back to the southern hemisphere.

[Sheep Guts]

Thanks Bindook,
With regards to DNG. Yes you did send troops to the FAR EAST, but they bravely ranaway,away! Read up on the fall of Singapore, and you will be enlightened.It was primarily U.S. and Australian troops that made the turn around in the East.All you have to do is go to the memorials through the Indonesian Archipeligo. PNG etc and see the graves. God rest their souls.Lest we forget.I dont think, bringing this subject into this thread is wise.

Regards
Sheep

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Props are for boats!Unless its a Kingair.

[This message has been edited by Sheep Guts (edited 24 January 2001).]

[ZAGY]

Guys and Mates,let's leave the wars out of it.I hold UK,CASA and JAR licence and fly in the land of pizza and pasta on a Italian validation.The fact that the nazies killed my g'father has never made any diff.really.The fact that the other survived has.Once I enquired about working in Oz and was told that the lic.is not enough.But there are Aussies flying 146s on UK validations in Italy,another fact.
What a mess....

[DirectNewGalloway]

I quite agree. What happened 60 years ago is not relevant to todays pilot recruitment market.

Let me make it quite clear that I have no objection to Australian pilots coming to work over here provided that Australia allows us Brits the right to live and work in Australia.

[This message has been edited by DirectNewGalloway (edited 24 January 2001).]

[redsnail]

DNG, Britain doesn't allow just any ol' Australian in. We must either have a UK passport or residency rights. Other wise it is the "whole immigration thing". For a Brit to come over to Australia they either must do the immigration bunfight or have the passport or residency... Same same.
Now, more Brits have emigrated to Australia than vice versa (After all, that is how Australia was colonised). Australia had a massive immigration policy for many years colloquially known as the "10 pound tourist scheme, then the $100 tourist scheme". ie assisted passage. That is why many Australians can hold dual citizenship.

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reddo...feral animal!

[foghorn]

So much for being in the Commonwealth: Australia requires British citizens to have a visa just to visit on holiday. Britain does not require Australian citizens to have a visa to visit on holiday.

Even the US lets Brits visit without visas!

Just an observation about enlightened immigration policies on a thread which seems to be descending into an opportunity for our Antipodean brethren to stick the boot into Britain (made by the same people who choose to live and work here!)

[foghorn]

Agree strongly, we should keep the wars out of this. But one comment before we do....

Sheeps Guts: in your enlightening reading about the Asian conflict in WWII, I suggest that you go and read up on the Burma campaign and then re-assess your comments about British involvement. 'Defeat into Victory: the history of the British XIVth Army in Burma 1942-45' by Field Marshal W. Slim is a good place to start. If you only look in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea (primarily a US/Australian theatre) no wonder you don't find many British graves.

For our tomorrow they gave their today.

Biggles72: Best of luck with your search wherever you choose to do it. I personally am rather dismayed with some of the comments regarding people's treatment here, despite the comments being in the middle of a Britain-bashing rant, we have to take them at face value. I for one _try_ not to hold 'xenophobic' attitudes, and I'm sure you'll find that extends to the majority of my countrymen. I think you'd find a much warmer welcome than certain people suggest.

[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 25 January 2001).]

[Blade1]

Quite frankly if you aren't prepared to put in the graft that we had to for our UK/JAR licenses - then you don't deserve a job over here! You prattle on winging and moaning about how dificult it is - TOUGH S#*t. We did it and if you think walsing over here saying you've got experience so you deserve a job you can sod off! the only experience you've got is piston or Bandit time because if you had serious time you'd be with Quantas and not bothering with UK - and you'd go back to Aus as soon as you have the required time anyway - the UK ain't a training ground for Aussie's to get the experience to take to Quantas as soon as they get the opportunity. Stay in Aus - PLS.

[DirectNewGalloway]

WELL SAID BLADE1

[Sheep Guts]

Well just a couple of replies,
Foghorn- Point taken, I will do some reading. But my response was directed at DNG for insinuating that you guys saved our souls. Well the answer is ofcourse you contributed, but the last line of Defence for Australain Soil was PNG and Indo etc.

Blade1. You are correct, maybe I should do more Studying instead of pruning.But with regards to your coment, of the U.K. being a training ground for us Aussies.
U.S.A and Australia IS a training ground for you guys. Just a look at the threads in the Wannabee Forum will prove this! :)

Time will tell, if the JAA makes there requirements in line with the rest of the world. I do realise the "monlythe" UK CAA will take probably take longer than my life time atleast, to change. Hey our CASA back in Oz isnt much better if any.! :) :)


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Props are for boats!Unless its a Kingair.