easyjet F/A fired for reporting the Captain

[Reinhardt]

In french, sorry, but quite easy to understand.

She reported the Captain the day after, as he had been taking a female pilot he knew in the cockpit... and she was sacked.

Licenciée, l (http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/licenciee-l%E2%80%99hotesse-de-l%E2%80%99air-attaque-easyjet)

[Juud]

It appears that in EZ just like in real life, might wins over right.

Then again, are those rules forbidding a captain to allow whom he/she pleases in to the cockpit "right" or just nonsensical, hysterical, pretend-safety idiocy?

Even if EZ rules do not allow a captain to do what he did in this case, why did she feel the need to report it?
Did she feel that him allowing another pilot (whom he knew) into the cockpit posed a real threat to safety?
If she had not reported it, and it had later come to light, would she have been held accountable for what a captain did? Not very likely.

It´s a murky story, and if what that journalist writes is factually correct, neither EZ management nor the FA come out of it very well.

Still, most media stories bear little relation to the facts, so who knows what really happened here.

[crewmeal]

most media stories bear little relation to the facts, so who knows what really happened here.

Wait until the Daily Mail get hold of it:ugh:

[ross_M]

Still, most media stories bear little relation to the facts, so who knows what really happened here.


Yeah, I bet there's more to the story than what's been reported. Although I don't blame the F/A for reporting it. Doesn't the whole safety-culture paradigm depend on people reporting any violations of rules? She's perhaps a stickler for rules.

[A and C]

The first thing we need to find out is the state the aircraft was registered in, perhaps some one with much better French than I have can clear this up.

Not all states have the utterly stupid regulations that the UK has with regard to who the Captain can let into the cockpit.

I find it most refreshing that some states trust to the judgment of the Captain of the aircraft in these matters rather than to a bunch of faceless idiots who make rules with no idea of end result.

All that having been said on the face of this it seems rather harsh to fire someone for reporting this happening to the managment, I am sure that we are only getting half the story.

[bean]

All Easyjet aircraft are British registered. It is a British Airline operating within British regulations

[bean]

Quite right. Forgot about the Swiss

[A and C]

Perhaps now following MATT101's post why I asked the question.

[Matt101]

All Easyjet aircraft are British registered. It is a British Airline operating within British regulations

Apart, of course, from those that are niether operating under a British AOC or under British registration ;)

Easyjet Switzerland Fleet (http://www.taxiwayalpha.com/fleets/search.php?search1=registration&value1=&search2=airline&value2=4599&Search=Search)

Just because I assume that the media aren't really sure of the difference between easyjet and it's subsidiary which is the fact on which I assume you base your post.

Sorry I've lost the gift of good grammar in this post.

[Matt101]

Quite right. Forgot about the Swiss

Poor Swiss after all they've done for us! :) (Chocolate, Clocks, outrageous beer tabs in GVA....)

I have to say though I have had a look and can't easily find an answer to the question on Cockpit access in Switzerland - I'd be surprised if it was much different to the UK to be honest especially given the FA, one would assume, had a reson to report the cockpit access.

[flyblue]

I have read the article, and two things I think are relevant:

1) The company denies she was fired for reporting the captain, who was rightly sanctioned for carrying a passenger without a ticket (but not, as the Office Fédéral de l’Aviation Civile admitted, for endangering the security of the flight according to Swiss rules)

2) She not only reported the captain to the company (that already took action), but also to the Office Fédéral de l’Aviation Civile (OFAC), the equivalent of the British CAA.

Draw your conclusions...

[Piltdown Man]

...Cockpit access in Switzerland - I'd be surprised if it was much different to the UK to be honest

I don't agree. Worldwide I think it's only the US and UK who really know how to over-react and draw up mean minded, pointless rules that add nothing to our security. So far, the most pragmatic security I've experienced is in (believe it or not) Italy. I'll not write down what they do, but it's plain common sense at work.

For security in the UK and US to improve, you've got to get the right people to run the system. What would you say to your children if said they wanted to be airport security staff when they grew up? Exactly. We are also unfortunate in that the people who are employed by airport security are the very people who should have nothing to do with it. The only reason they work in these jobs is because they can find employment anywhere else. And the 'best' of these rise up through the ranks to create the policies which we have to suffer each day.

PM

[A and C]

A first class post that sums up the total stupidity of the UK security system that is a product of the politicly correct Nu Laba nanny state.

The whole system is viewed with utter contempt by most in the industry for being the best way to turn low grade labour into huge proffits, the management of these companys ramp up the security situation to increase proffits and most of the civil servents are too gutless to oppose them.

The DoT currently has a security consultation running, I recoment that all in the UK who involved take part, one of the issues is should CHIRP be given an offical role within the system.

CHIRP have been pushing the CRM shortcomings of the security system for some time but from outside the system (just the way the security industry wants it!) as being judge and jury in its own court is just fine by the security people.

My submision to the consultation is along the lines that the self perpetuating security parasites must be kept under control, on the operational level by an independant body and from the CRM perspective by CHIRP.

I urge all those of you who have to endure the UK security farse on a daily basis to take part in this consultation and try to rid the aviation industry of the worst excesses of these security parasites.

[usualguy]

another FA who think she is the commander! after 4 week course and 0euro invested in her license.
it s like these nurses who think to know all,and treat patients without doctor's order.


captain has FINAL AUTHORITY! based on this, he can accept who he want, he can kick out who he want...even OFAC can not go against his decision.

[Reinhardt]

Apparently she had done this reporting idiocy, then she was stongly suspected of having been involved in a bomb phone threat in UK (but without proof obviously) then probably add some attitude problems - so reporting the Captain was the last nail in the coffin - BYE BYE !!

I know an Irish airline where the purser reported the Captain "for turbulences unavoided during the flight" to get revenge as she had been arguing with him beginning of the flight for a passenger matter, and she wanted to be the one "in charge of everything behind" .... BYE BYE also !

Good it happens from time to time.

[bondim]

Usualguy,

"another FA who think she is the commander!", you sound like another Commander who thinks he is God! :=

[Juud]

bondim, on the aircraft, they are God.
That´s just the way it is, and if we as cabin crew can not accept that without resentment, we should get a different job.

The good Gods are knowledgeable and benevolent. They know what they don´t know, and delegate accordingly. They treat all crew members with respect, yet do not hesitate to enforce their decisions when necessary. They always take the end responsibility and stand in front of their crew when (management) sh!t hits the fan.
They are leaders in the best sense of the word, and a pleasure to work with.

The bad Gods KNOW they know it all, and are a malevolent influence. They throw their weight around in a way that antagonises others and creates a sullen atmosphere. They treat cabin crew with thinly veiled disdain, micro manage what happens on both sides of the cockpit door yet are nowhere to be seen when trouble arrives.
They are self important bullies and a nightmare to work with.

Thankfully, there are many more of the first than of the second variety.

IMO, good, professional cabin crew will work with both these extremes and all variations in between, to jointly ensure a safe and comfortable flight for the pax.

... a frustration-venting post on PPRuNe is a good way to let off steam after a flight with a God of the Second Variety. I speak from experience. ;)

[Dawdler]

Well done Juud!

[usualguy]

a FA who go against the authority of a captain has no place in this industry.
the captain has his crew, his plane ,his license and his power.he has final authority. It 's printed black on white.Even the OFAC can not do anything against the captain' decision.He can even break air laws if he wants.

Easy was right to kick this lady out, she can find another job.

what is the job of a FA ?answer: take care of the cabin. do you have any authority in the cockpit? which one?
if you want take decisons on board of an airplane , become a pilot first, then you can play with rules as much you want.

[swissmen]

Good day

It was Easyjet Switzerland and according to the newspaper her release was not because of reporting the Cpt. but rather because of another "story"!

You have to know the the newspaper "Le Matin" is like "The Sun" in UK. Kind of low level journalism...

Have a good one!

[Evanelpus]

a FA who go against the authority of a captain has no place in this industry.

So, if a FA thinks the Captain is under the influence of drink or drugs, he/she is to say nothing? You can't have it both ways.

[TightSlot]

I think we've got the message usualguy - especially since you have essentially repeated your own post, this time with a little added hysteria. I have left your posts visible but restricted your ability to post further on this thread - This is a serious subject that deserves better than teenage rants.

[blind pew]

Can't stand snitches
Got her just dues - had enough of uppity cabin crew who thought they ruled the aircraft.
Look at Swissair 111 disaster where the CC were given the only circuit breaker for the pax entertainment system and when it caught fire the flight crew couldn't isolate it.
They had a ignorant habit of continually resetting the system - recipe for disaster - as they didn't know better.
Did two years training b4 I got on line not two weeks...
We had a bright yellow trench coat style raincoat - we looked ridiculous - courtesy of SR cabin crew - the Italians nicknamed us the tennis balls.
Gave it to my mother and she wouldn't even do the gardening in it.
Leave the CC to serve the drinks and evacuate when the flight crew decide.

[A and C]

I can't help wondering about the CRM skills of some of the pilots who have posted above, in twelve years of flying with cabin crew I have always treated them with respect and have without had that respect reurned.

I have never had to take an issue with a CC member further than a descreet word, however I did have to go to the management about one FO who had such a poor attitude with the CC that I felt it was a a flight safety hazard........... on the very same flight he refused to check an ATC clearance that was in doubt (he got it wrong) and then attempted to take off without clearance.

The CC member who had to take his rudness and abuse got my respect for the way she contunued with her duties dispite the way she was treated, the FO gets no respect what so ever from me for his attitude.

In some posts above I see some of this FO's attitude, it is a very poor pilot who has such a view of the CC, they have their part to play in the safe operation of the aircraft and as pilots we would do well to remember and respect them for that.

[bondim]

I never questioned the authority of the commander or chain of command! BUT, captains are NOT Gods, they cannot do as they please! I appreciate that they are far higher trained in all matters relating flight safety than cabin crew are, and never claimed otherwise. The condescending manner some posters above talk about cabin crew, however, suggests that these people don't quite grasp the importance of CRM, as A and C so succintly pointed it out above.

[TOGA 10]

to Matt101,

in Switzerland we have a so called cockpit permit, which is an offical FOCA (Federal Office of Civil Aviation) form, which enable the commander to admit a person on the jumpseat. I have always one in my crew bag, and when I use it I get a new one the next day. So yes, we lost the common sense on the price of the beer but not on other matters:ok:

Ciao,

TOGA 10

[bughunta]

#17 That was a very good post judd, relevant to managing relations in the workplace whatever the industry...

[Young Paul]

The captain may be "God and the law" rolled into one, but only until the doors open. At that stage, s/he is accountable for everything that s/he has done to a higher authority, namely the ops manual of the company that s/he works for.

Pilots can't "play with rules as much as they want." In fact, any circumstances in which they "play with rules" should be open to scrutiny - if there isn't time during the operation, then afterwards. Otherwise, why bother writing rules and SOPs in the first place? I write this as a pilot.

Nobody likes a snitch. But nobody likes being put in a position where they are compromised by somebody else's disregard for regulations.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

A good Captain is a person who fully understands and readily accepts that whilst the buck may well stop at him/her they are not God, and not even godlike :ok:

A good Captain understands that there quite a few things about operating the aircraft that he/she does not fully understand but others on board will.

A Captain that thinks he/she is God, now that is truly scary :=

[Matt101]

to Matt101,

in Switzerland we have a so called cockpit permit, which is an official FOCA (Federal Office of Civil Aviation) form, which enable the commander to admit a person on the jumpseat. I have always one in my crew bag, and when I use it I get a new one the next day. So yes, we lost the common sense on the price of the beer but not on other matters:ok:

Ciao,

TOGA 10

What a thoroughly sensible idea - which is why I doubt we'll see anything similar in the land of the CAA (and those that adhere) any time in the future.

Usualguy, I know tightslot has already dealt with you really but I couldn't stop myself from reading your post and then taking an instant dislike to you and so I have had to have the rant below (I am sorry mods).

a FA who go against the authority of a captain has no place in this industry.

Rubbish, people in authority make mistakes all the time, it's not about going against any ones authority. Good day, good CRM; the whole team will pull together for a successful outcome.

the captain has his crew, his plane ,his license and his power.he has final authority. It 's printed black on white.Even the OFAC can not do anything against the captain' decision.He can even break air laws if he wants.

Bizarre statement, you seem to imply that the hundreds of pages of legislation that my Air Law instructor droned on about for months was irrelevant. If so can I have those few months back please? If maintaining the safety of the aircraft requires you to take action that contravenes an "air law" I am sure you'll find that said law provides leeway for such circumstance. You make it sound as if a Captain can rock up, fill her up and get from A to B anyway she/he damn well pleases, free from judgement or higher authority, which is absolute manure.

Easy was right to kick this lady out, she can find another job.

what is the job of a FA ?answer: take care of the cabin. do you have any authority in the cockpit? which one?
if you want take decisions on board of an airplane , become a pilot first, then you can play with rules as much you want.

Please lord tell me you don't have an ATPL?

I am lucky to have worked on both sides of the metal door to which I often feel we owe a severe dislike. In some ways I think that for the increase in security we have gained from the phase 2 door, we have also lost a level of safety, (a potential blockage for one of those Swiss cheese holes), by dividing physically, and it seems from this thread mentally, the resources onboard.

I've been lucky that the forward/aft CRM has generally been good on all flights, but I wonder if the locked door has lead to a reduction in good practice and an increase in a them and us mentality.

What a shame for us personally, and how dangerous from a safety standpoint.

Yes we all have different roles onboard but we all share the same goal, a safe operation on the day, some posts on this thread would seem to imply the presence of cabin crew is nothing but a hindrance - foolish.

anyway nuff said.....

[tomkins]

"Once the doors are closed the captain in God and the Law rolled into one"
oh dear think Im gonna puke:{

[EZYA319]

As a cabin manager/purser what ever your individual airlines might call my role I would love to meet some of you folks who have made these narrow minded, idiotic and scarily poor CRM comments, and tell you exactly what I think of you, however I would not want to fly with you as my pilot!! I too HATE grasses but like I said if you can make comments like this on a public forum, then your attitude onboard would be of grave concern to me and I would probably not wish to fly with you again.
Blind Pew you state that the CC were to blame for the Swissair 111 disaster?? How many disasters have been caused by pilots not listening to their fellow Cabin or flight crew???
I am lucky enough to fly with some of the nicest flight crew in the industry and i'm pleased so many of you have been disgusted by some of the things that have been said on here!

I pity your opinions and I feel sorry for the wonderful cabin crew you will work with!

[PURPLE PITOT]

Coffee, white none please love

Sorry, couldn't resist:ok:

[Baywatcher]

Well said Usualguy!

[Teddy Robinson]

My take on this goes a bit like Newtons equal and opposite reaction.
"Gods" are infallible, I am not, that's why we have a team of people looking after the safe operation of public transport aircraft, rather than an individual.

That team should be not separated by rank or for that matter the cockpit door, if it is it's integrity is compromised.

I have watched some individuals laying it on thick with the "address me as captain" line with their crew, result being that they (the rest of the crew) felt intimidated ... not good.

There is a time and place for pushing the gold bars to the fore, and stating where the buck stops, but that is truly the last resort, you earn respect over time rather demand it on the spot for ego purposes.

So far as flight deck policy goes, ultimately (in many non UK/US airlines) captains may still use their discretion after consulting the other members of the crew, out of both courtesy and with crew security in mind, it's not something I would just do.

Then again, if any member of my crew had a valid objection it would be taken into account before flight, not stuck in some unseen "report" after the event.

TR

[UK019]

Juud. Your post No.17: I am going to read that out, word for word, on every command course I run from now on. I have never, in 26 years of airline training, seen it put better. Absolutely first-class, every sentence.