E-190 over run Quito

[skidbuggy]

Not sure if it's been discussed here, if so, please move or delete.

Thanks



Accident: TAME E190 at Quito on Sep 16th 2011, overran runway (http://avherald.com/h?article=44313add&opt=0)

[denkraai]

Interesting post ...

Flaps/slats
By Mdlover on Saturday, Sep 17th 2011 17:07Z
Is there any mention on the flap/slat issues? Because that keeps happening to this aircraft almost every week.

:hmm:

[Shemya]

I have flown both the ILS 35 and the RNAV (RNP) 35 (which has CAT C/D of 3.0 km and a DA 542). The metar at the time would make for a challenging approach and landing. If the visibility was 3000S (reported at 3000) and you were on the glide slope at minimums flying the ILS just acquiring the runway approach lighting the PAPI’s would show high with 4 white lights. That is the norm flying this approach and how you compensate for being high on glide slope at this point dictates the touchdown point.

[Out Of Trim]

Why would the ILS Glideslope and the Papi Glideslope not match? :ugh:

Seems like a recipe for disaster right there. It would explain why the touchdown point is rather variable! :rolleyes:

[grounded27]

Why would the ILS Glideslope and the Papi Glideslope not match? :ugh:

Seems like a recipe for disaster right there. It would explain why the touchdown point is rather variable! :rolleyes:

Terrain/buildings, you are flying down a hill. The G/S is set at 3.2 deg, more than what it normally is, procedure is to go visual when able. Many a pilot are not prepared and fly the G/S all the way in. I have a great video on FB of a procedural landing in a DC-10-30 in less than optimal weather. (corrected G/S, my error)

[Broomstick Flier]

Yet another over run at UIO ..

http://elcomercio.com/quito/TAME-Mariscal-Sucre-Quito-septiembre_ECMIMA20110917_0012_25.jpg

Grounded27, any chance to have a link to the video?

Cheers

Edit: posting the image above

[PEI_3721]

grounded27 (good handle – location Earth - stay there !) Re “The G/S is set at 6 deg …”
Read approach chart and the details in the report; the ILS GS angle is 3.2 deg.
Shemya reports that this would be above the visual glideslope as indicated by PAPI.

[grounded27]

I think I may have copied it to my desktop before FB erased it, I will work on getting that link uploaded to youtube later. It was great, all call outs are clear, broken clouds, wet runway but visibility good on final, you can clearly hear the G/S aural warning as 2 red 2 white come into view and a thanks from the Captain as the F/O cancels the audio.

[Broomstick Flier]

ILS GP for 35 is 3.2° and PAPI angle is 3.12°...

Worth of mention is that the ILS threshold is displaced 500m

More images are surfacing ... does not look good :=
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2692/tame2.jpg

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7681/tame1.jpg


http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8586/tame3.jpg

http://modocharlie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/IMG_3916.jpg

[decurion]

A long landing was cited in several press reports. Of course we have to be careful to speculate on this and wait for the official report. However, long landings are often a factor in landing overruns. See e.g.:

A Study of Runway Excursions from a European Perspective (http://www.nlr-atsi.nl/eCache/ATS/14/919.pdf)

Landing long: Why does it happen? (http://www.nlr-atsi.nl/eCache/ATS/16/764.pdf)

Running out of runway: Analysis of 35 years of landing overrun accidents (http://www.nlr-atsi.nl/eCache/ATS/13/415.pdf)

A (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2009/AR2008018_1.aspx)TSB study on runway excursions (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2009/AR2008018_1.aspx)

[Hotel Tango]

However, long landings are often a factor in landing overruns

With all due respects I think that you're stating the bleeding obvious there decurion.

[decurion]

Not every long landing results in an overrun. It is one of the factors that play a role in landing overruns. If you combine this with say a slippery runway, late braking, high speed, your margins decreases...

[Lone_Ranger]

With all due respect........you just did it again

[GlueBall]

decurion ...Rest assured that unless there was a total brake failure, it was a late touchdown, as there is NO other reason for this small jet to overrun this 10300' (3139m) uphill pavement.

These home country boys at the controls landing at their home country airport should have known better not to land long, especially not on a wet pavement.:{

[safetypee]

What might be obvious to some people can be overlooked by others.
For example, the 10,300ft (3139m) long runway only provides a landing distance of 8,563ft (2610m) beyond the displaced threshold.
The approach path is slightly steeper than normal – requiring a higher vertical speed which adds to the already higher VS resulting from the high ground speed at the 10,000 ft altitude.
The ILS t’hold crossing ht (TCH) is higher than the visual ht, which together with the higher grnd speed tends to extend the flare before touchdown, probably resulting in a longer landing than with standard techniques (2500ft per 10kts, plus 200ft per 10ft above TCH; AC91-79).
There is no correlating visual glideslope when approaching on the ILS, – crews should not attempt to duck under as this can destabilise the approach – and an even higher VS.

Some not-so-obvious items are identified in a recent Norwegian report “… incidents involving slippery runways occur because the involved parties do not realize that the existing rules and regulations are based on a simplification of the actual physical conditions.”
An example of this might be the erroneous assumption that wet runway performance is reasonably consistent. The wet landing distance is only an approximation and even with certification factors the actual safety margin in comparison with a dry runway may be less; and in some conditions very much so, even none. Consider the difference between wet and contaminated data; compare the wet landing distance on a 2.5 mm water depth ‘wet’ runway, with 3.0 mm depth – what if the reported conditions ‘overlook’ these details - "what if".
Then consider the condition of the aircraft tyres (“… tread designs tend to lose their drainage capability when the tread is approximately 80 percent worn”. Horne NASA). There may be similar issues with the runway surface; it might be grooved but are the grooves worn, blocked, or the surface contaminated with rubber. How long does it take a runway to drain aftyer a heavy rain storm, how long can an aircraft hold-off before landing.

Of course, for those who have been off-the-end of the runway (now looking over the shoulder at the emergency vehicles arriving), all of the above is obvious, but why wasn’t it obvious during the pre landing briefing.

NASA Wet Runways (Horne) (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19750012279_1975012279.pdf)

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1492.pdf (and 1493, 1494)

[F111UPS767]

UPS MIA domicile recommended technique is to maintain GS until DA, then transition to PAPI. If good weather, transition down to PAPI slightly before DA possible. (CPT only airport) (Runway not grooved)

[grounded27]

UPS MIA domicile recommended technique is to maintain GS until DA

Sorry for the ignorant post above (3.2), CAC had been flying this route long before Brown took it. None the less, as promised.

DC10 30 approach landing Quito - YouTube

A fine firm approach and landing in a DC10-30

[denkraai]

I guess i'll have to fly the VOR then this week. Let's hope for CAVOK:) and/or visual 17...
I'm no Embraer pilot but i don't see slats deployed?:confused:
A little flap but no slats....

[decurion]

Total brake failure hardly occurs and is not a major factor in landing overruns (as expected from the certification assumptions in 25.1309).
There are several examples of overruns of small aircraft on very long runways in which the aircraft touched at the right spot, had functional brakes, and still could not be stopped on the runway. Main causes are often late and ineffective use of brakes on a slippery runway.

[MoodyBlue]

The Quito airport is rumoured to have bought some spare localizer-antennas after the Iberia overrun, so they might have the ILS back up pretty quick.

Edit: According to the NOTAM, they expect to have the ILS back up by 2359UTC on the 23rd!

Otherwise... the VOR is even more fun... :ok:

[Shemya]

RNAV (RNP) a nice thing to be able to fly.

[denkraai]

Talked to a guy who saw it happen. Apparently the crew decided to try and take off again when they realised they were not going to stop after a midrunway touchdown. :ooh:

[BigFootDriver]

UIO is unusually hazardous as the runway in not grooved. as a check airman that has qualified many captains and f/o's in this airport I can promise it's more dangerous than it seems.

Briefing points include....

Runway wet, expect braking action nil until less than 90 KIAS.
Due to hydroplaning on an ungrooved runway.
pilot must land at the 500 foot marker, no flare, to stop prior to reaching slippery black rubber on far end of runway.
Captain must brief f/o on how to silence gpws glideslope alarm that occurs when transitioning to papi.
From DA to papi intercept requires 1100 fpm descent.
Far end of runway disappears after spoilers deploy. Don't loose your cool and try to go around! Runway is humped.
Always apply max braking when runway is wet in addition to max reverse and spoilers.

Landing with 15 knot tailwind runway 35 approved by FAA. YIKES!

No room for error here.

[Pander216]

Look at the flaps...

So unless it was flap fail with flaps stuck in position 1, it was a RTO.