QF029 HKG - LHR turnback?

[zappalin]

Hi all,
So I received a message about 3 hours ago from a mate who was supposed to be in London by now on QF029. His message:
11hour flight to ****ing nowhere. Qantas didn't have official paperwork so weren't allowed in European airspace great work you pack of *****. Free accom and meal in honkers.
Indeed having a look at the Hong Kong airport departures and the 14 Sept, 07:35 departure is "Dly to 15/09".

So, I gather he is relaying the info they were told by staff, and if so, how could Qantas forget paperwork?? Any insights?

[1a sound asleep]

Current Status
QF29 Hong Kong to London (Heathrow)

Original Departure 07:35 (Wed) Arrival 13:30 (Wed)

New Departure 06:00 (Thu )DELAYED Arrival 11:55 (Thu)

:ugh:

[Keg]

It's happened a couple of times over the years. Invariably it's not due to any fault of Qantas but rather an error by controllers and/ or the administration of the ATC system by the respective State.

I have No specific information about this particular event and I certainly don't rule out a mistake at QFs end.

[dragon man]

This is a rumour network, i think you will find some very red faces. No charts for London.

[hotnhigh]

As someone said the other day, the greatest threat to the flight is the current industrial relations climate. ie. focus boys and girls,focus.

[Autobrakes4]

Not having charts for London wouldn't stop you from going in there, and forcing you to turn back! :hmm:

And if they did, the captain has a lot to answer for.

[Artificial Horizon]

Autobrakes,

How would you continue then if you don't have the legally required approach charts for the airport you are intending to use!!

I have been in an airline before who left the Jepp pack on the aerobridge and this was realised about 3 hours into a 5 hour flight. After talking to the company and relevant authorities they turned around and came back to the origin airport as they couldn't get permission to carry on without the LEGAL paperwork.

If they carried on to LHR and just happened to be ramp checked by the CAA they would be in serious trouble if not charts were onboard for the destination.

[Iron Bar]

How about divert to Frankfurt (or somewhere else suitable) in ten hours time and pick the charts up. . . . . .

I imagine this will be related to overflight clearance or something similar.

[C441]

Kazakhstan playing silly buggers?

Timeframe's about right.

Not having overflight clearances through European airspace sounds unlikely but being knocked back by Borat-stan doesn't.
Once you get to the border there, your options (as a QF flight) for other transit routes are quite limited.

[Veruka Salt]

Just landed in HKG myself; heard 'QF029D' enquiring about the chances of a departure in the 25 direction (07 is currently in use) due to a 'technical problem'. Told 'cannot' so perhaps they'll have to offload payload to get off on 07 ....

[dragon man]

If what i am told is correct and that is that the European Charts were not in the flight libary and the S/O didnt pick it up then im still laughing because i believe they havnt stood any crew down, wait for it, because they are short of that rank. We are in great hands.

[Bypass ratio]

If I didn't have the charts I would still go. It's all in the FMC and with the advent of iPads, I know I have always got a copy of departure, destination & alternate uploaded! The only thing I can think of in this case is that pilots are just ramming it up management's @rse. And so they should. QF management, what a complete circus of mammoth proportions......:ugh:

[fatmike]

It would appear that the" Qantas pilot for a Qantas flight"stuffed up ie the S/O. I hope he had his red tie on.
As for Dragon Man, Iron Bar Autobrakes 4 and other brave people I suggest you read the rules. To operate into airspace without charts is ILLEGAL unless of course it is an emergency. Artificial horizon has got it about right.
Keg, C441, you're incorrect. It was never about overflight clearances.
Dragon Man regarding standing the crew down, be careful you don't get what you wish for. Someone may take up your challenge.

[fatmike]

It would appear that the" Qantas pilot for a Qantas flight"stuffed up ie the S/O. I hope he had his red tie on.
As for Dragon Man, Iron Bar Autobrakes 4 By Pass ratio and other brave people I suggest you read the rules. To operate into airspace without charts is ILLEGAL unless of course it is an emergency. Artificial horizon has got it about right.
Keg, C441, you're incorrect. It was never about overflight clearances.
Dragon Man regarding standing the crew down, be careful you don't get what you wish for. Someone may take up your challenge.

[Transition Layer]

Getting into LHR would be easy enough without charts (legalities aside):
"Leave Lambourne heading 270..etc etc..." then "intercept 27R localiser".

The real issue would arise if you needed to divert somewhere else you're completely unfamiliar with. Which is most of Europe since we don't really fly anywhere anymore!!!

[almostthere!]

Why did the SO stuff up? You tell me where it says for the SO to check if the charts are on board? Even if they are how are you to know they are actually valid and the current charts? What if the charts are out of date, what would you actually check to ensure the thousands of pages in those Jepps are actually up to date?

[DirectAnywhere]

Almostthere - FAM 7.4.1

[DirectAnywhere]

Firstly, I have no idea why the aircraft turned back and I am not speculating on the reason here.

Regarding the charts that should be on board, there should be two hard copies of the destination and alternate charts and one hard copy of the enroute charts for Europe.

The problem is that flight libraries change depending on where the aircraft is going. There are three possible options on the -400, Pacific charts only, Pacific plus Europe or Pacific plus Americas.

Last minute aircraft changes mean the correct charts may not be on board. Flight libraries are supposed to pick it up but these things do get missed occasionally.

F/Os (and S/Os are delegated the role by the FAM when they are carried) are the last line of defence. It's an antiquated and outdated system that has caused problems and significant expense in the past.

There is a strong argument for an EFB capable of carrying all required charts - Pacific, Europe and Americas - in one easy to carry format. Now, where's my iPad?

[TSRABECOMING]

Are there normally one hard copy onboard? Or need to pick up by SO every flight?

[unionist1974]

And heres me thinking that Qantas Pilots are like the Pope . Infallible!

[Capt Kremin]

FatMike, you appear to be having a go at this crew for;

a. admitting the error.

b. Obeying the law by not continuing.

I can name you a dozen airlines, nay two dozen, that would have done neither.

In a Aviation industry that is yet to eliminate errors, you tell me which is the safer option?

[unionist1974]

But are the famous Qantas Pilots not the best ? surely they could never make a mistake . Oh , not like those Asian fellows , surely .Could I have another G&T please .

[Bootstrap1]

If it was VH-OEE, then not having Euro charts would make sense as it is predominantly used on the USA and Latin America sectors.

[KABOY]

All I can say is the buck stops with the Commander, if he departed without the correct charts who is to blame????

All this finger pointing does not absolve the Captain of his duties, complacency can be costly I'm afraid.

[fatmike]

you appear to be having a go at this crew for;
Far from it. I think they did exactly the right thing having realised the mistake, notwithstanding the subsequent fallout.
I find the comment re standing the crew down laughable just as I find the comments of the "press-on" merchants.
Yes the captain is ultimately responsible, notwithstanding the delegation of duties to the the 2 S/Os. These are the sort of guys who covet the RHS and LHS jobs and are very critical that their careers are being "rooned" (in Aussie lingo) but seem to have problems getting their current duties right, having let their captain down. The poor old captain has to wear it but it goes with the job.:=:=

[Poto]

No charts = big stuff up! However those of you who have never made a mistake can continue to Whine On!:ouch:

[fatmike]

And don't forget there were 2 lots of S/Os who weren't doing do what they are paid to do. The aircraft originated in Melbourne where, if the shortfall had been picked up, some recovery may have been possible. Maybe they were still unpacking their red ties:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Bypass ratio]

Fatmike, here is an excerpt from my Operations Manual:

Responsibilities & Duties - Commander (not all listed)

t. Ensure that the documents and manuals listed in the Operations Manual Part A Section 8 are carried and will remain valid throughout the flight or series of flights and be produced, when requested, to a person authorised by the authority.

Flight Preparation Instructions

A Commander shall not commence a flight unless he is satisfied that (not all listed):

g. Current Maps, charts and associated documents or equivalent data are available to cover the intended operation of the aeroplane including any diversion which may reasonably be expected (this includes conversion tables where necessary to support operations where metric heights, altitudes and flight levels are to be used.

Emergency Situations
Where procedures do not exist for a particular emergency situation and where the situation requires immediate decision and action, the Commander is authorised to take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate from normally applicable regulations, operational procedures and methods in the interest of safety.

I deem that in the interest of safety I would continue rather than to return to Hong Kong and dump however many tonnes of fuel so as to land below MLW.

I would've continued on that particular flight.

I agree that it is a stuff up and I am ultimately responsible, but that's how I would've run it.

Good aeroplane, good weather & I know London like the back of my hand.

Resources available: ACARS, SATPHONE, iPad charts, ATC, FMC etc.

I would submit an ASR upon landing and wait for the tea & biscuits email (which I'm quite certain would come after I arrived back in Dubai) lol

Kind regards

[Dixons Millions]

Couldn't agree more with you Bypass Ratio. I would have done exactly what you said.. The knock on effect was monumental.

Apparently it was noticed half way, called in and Capt then ordered to turn around by Head of Flying Ops...

[fatmike]

What do you say about CAR 233?
What if you had a medical/mechanical/operational problem that required you to go to a place that you didn't know like the back of your hand?
The completely safe option is to go somewhere you had all the charts for notwithstanding the fallout and the embarrassment.
The less safe and less prudent option is to press on in the hope and the expectation that nothing will change to cause other than a normal flight where you can consult the back of your hand and execute your approach into London.
I'd suggest to you that the latter is not the way Qantas expects its commanders to operate.
PS If you are with Emirates, I'd point out to you that unlike Emirates and others, Qantas doesn't sack its pilots for making an operational mistake.

[Bypass ratio]

Firstly I am not privy to CAR233. I suppose I could look it up on the CASA website but I couldn't be bothered. In my part of the world (ICAO signatory) my operations manual covers what's written in the regulations. I'm pretty sure QF would be the same.

If we go down the path of "what if" we could be here all day for me and all night for you.

For eg. You say "what if I get a medical diversion enroute". Okay, now the plot thickens. Question: am I completely devoid of charts or do I not have EGLL only?

If I don't have any charts whatsoever, I would then have to manage the situation slightly more cautiously. However I would still continue. Again I would use the same resources to get me into London as I would into BAKU. What geographical route do you take from VHHH to EGLL? I am fairly familiar with quite a few aerodromes between OMDB and VHHH. Weather - ok northern hemisphere summer is pretty good through Europe. Monsoon in Asia etc etc. Its all big picture stuff

In regards to your last comment Fatmike, all I can say is this: I flew with a Qantas subsidiary (as a Captain) many years ago. I was not considered good enough to be a Second Officer with mainline (which is quite funny given the topic at hand). I had to take my skills offshore to a place where as you mentioned, different rules apply. All I can say is that at 36 years of age with a Command on the 777 flying all over the world and earning the equivalent of 343000 AUD gross......it's a small price to pay.

[Capt Fathom]

It's the old story!

The buck stops with the Captain!

But in how many places can they be at any one time?

Things will slip through the cracks occassionally.

Who was responsible for putting the charts onboard in the first place?

[clotted]

.......................

[FlexibleResponse]

But why not an in-flight internet upload of the necessary maps and charts to the SO's iPad?

[Master Caution]

At CX all long haul airplanes have a worldwide library onboard (single copy).

Additionally there are two sets of "Mini Jepp" containing the departure, destination and primary alternates issued to the operating pilots at dispatch.

The S/O gets a glare if, when the Captain reaches for his chart book, the West charts are there instead of the East charts or vv. Fortunately it can be corrected by injuring one's shoulders and lifting the flight library out of the cupboard!.

I'm with the iPad crew - if only we could get ICAO to agree.:*



.

[ruprecht]

That's quite the chip on that shoulder of yours Bypass Ratio.:rolleyes:

ruprecht

[DirectAnywhere]

Master Caution, Cathay seem to have it right.

This shouldn't happen but it does. I'm not going to criticise anyone as I've had my fair share of f$&kups over the years. This is a real organisational failure however.

Having 3 possible flight libraries seems to be a recipe for disaster. This is not the first time this has happened in QF. I know of at least one, possibly two, other occurrence(s) in the last 10 years. Until such time as a decent efb is introduced with all charts why not put the Pacific and Euro charts on all 400s and also put the Americas books on the -ERs?

Cost analysis on the risk of a diversion anyone?

[Mud Skipper]

Does it surprise any line pilots this has happened?

The company continues to abuse the professionalism of the pilot group to be vigilant whilst it continues to ramp up industrial pressure unabated taking NO responsibility for its own actions which are severely detrimental to safe and harmonious operations.

That a few Second Officers or other crew may overlook such a thing is hardly surprising give they have been made to expect to lose their jobs through the machinations of AJ and his mob.

I tip my hat for to all the crew able to keep up their vigilance during this continuous onslaught.

Thank God we are only talking some embarrassment and nothing more serious.

[flying_a_nix_box]

As an SLF I was on QF29 on the way to London one day and we had to wait a few extra minutes to deport honkers. The reason for the delay was that the required maps were not on the plane and and to be procured.

[Autobrakes4]

36, 777 command, 343000 gross. What a hero!:D

[SOPS]

Its a worry:confused:

[Bypass ratio]

Pretty cool huh.......:)

[Autobrakes4]

It would be cool except you have to live in a s#*t hole!!!!!!!!!!!! :}

And before you ask, yes I've been there.

[Keg]

777 command, 343000 gross.


That's not possible. Olivia Wirth on Sky News yesterday said that QF pilots were the highest paid in the world. Surely she wasn't mistaken? Surely she didn't mis-speak? :ok:

[Nunc]

Looks like the QF Pysch tests got it right for once. Glad you like Dubai.

[waren9]

36, 777 command, 343000 gross. What a hero!

Well atleast he hasnt left any charts behind.

[indamiddle]

come april 2012 it won't be an issue in HKG or even BKK

[Bypass ratio]

I look forward to having you as my F/O....:)

[Autobrakes4]

No charts left behind waren, but didn't they take out a localiser on takeoff in Mel on 34? You won't be flying with me as your f/o bypass. I wouldn't live in the Middle East for all the tea in China, or all the sand in Dubai!

[bingo doubt]

shall we rename the thread "p*ssing match between those who've never made mistakes".....

[Nunc]

Good call Bingo. Cool,:O:ok:

[Tagneah]

but didn't they take out a localiser on takeoff in Mel on 34?

Just like the QF landing distance calcs using Runway, Stopway, Clearway, Fairway........:ugh:

[flyingfox]

It's a wonder 'long haul' aircraft can lift the 'egos'! Do you put them on the manifest for weight and balance? :ooh:

[slamer.]

OK... charts/docs shouldnt be left behind but these things can and clearly do happen. Surely 3/4 experienced pilots using FMC data, ACARS, Satphone co-ordination to LHR ATC to see if they will accept them and QF dispatch (or whatever they call it) to validate data for destination and a suitable alternate, Cant be that difficult or un-safe given some 5 or 6 hours to figure it out.

From whats written here the whole thing sounds sloppy. Maybe theres a "back story"

[Sunfish]

Slamer:

OK... charts/docs shouldnt be left behind but these things can and clearly do happen. Surely 3/4 experienced pilots using FMC data, ACARS, Satphone co-ordination to LHR ATC to see if they will accept them and QF dispatch (or whatever they call it) to validate data for destination and a suitable alternate, Cant be that difficult or un-safe given some 5 or 6 hours to figure it out.

I'm sure you are right Slamer, it could be worked out, however I don't think the legalities and insurance requirements are sufficiently elastic to accommodate you.

To put that another way, try telling a policeman that your car really is roadworthy without lights and windshield wipers because you have "worked out" a way of driving it safely, and let me know what happens :E

[slamer.]

So if you were half way to LHR and you discovered your charts (assuming you have them) are just out of date you'd divert because your not legal.

Most of the required data is already onboard, its just a matter of verifying it.

[Capt Claret]

Slammer, I'm with Sunfish. Imagine yourself in a court of enquiry after some incident that has nothing to do with missing documents, but with a Legal Eagle the calibre of Geoffrey Robertson quietly tearing you a new fundamental orifice, as you squirm trying to explain why you knew better to disregard some rule or regulation to avoid the inconvenience of a tuen back.

It wouldn't be pretty. :ooh:

[slamer.]

Sure and if they deliberately dispatched without current or any Doc's I'd agree. But I guess they should have thought about the "legal eagles" before this departure. Doesnt matter whether at destination or RTB the lawyers will take the crews professionalism to pieces in the event of a incident at either ... given the reason for diversion

Whatever ... Ill bet this crew is in for a higher jump for forgetting Docs and returning than forgetting Docs and completing the flight to destination, which is what their paid to do.... safely

[Artificial Horizon]

Can't agree Slamer, they had no choice but to return. They could have carried on and more than likely nothing would have gone wrong and no one would have been any the wiser until the next crew turned up for the return flight and said 'where are all the charts'. I would think this decision would have been taken in conjunction with the company ops anyway.

[Nunc]

Bad oversight by 2 crews, how did the aircraft leave Oz without the full route package. It is this second point that needs addressing by QF. There is something systemically wrong when this sort of event occurs, and this is not the first time charts have not been on board and a diversion was the result.

Trouble is it is easier for this current management to get the boys and girls in for tea and bickies then to go and find a solution to stop this happening again-ever. :ugh:

[Tankengine]

Slamer, my info is that the crew satphoned home and was told to divert by management.

[neville_nobody]

Bad oversight by 2 crews, how did the aircraft leave Oz without the full route package. It is this second point that needs addressing by QF

IF you are implying that then you are saying that SO's will need to check every single page before departure at SYD. Who knows where an aircraft will go after you hand it over.

Maybe QF should issue worldwide jepps to every pilot and make them do the amendments....that'll teach 'em:}

[Ken Borough]

Maybe QF should issue worldwide jepps to every pilot and make them do the amendments....that'll teach 'em

And how may credited hours will AIPA demand for each revision? Who would then be blamed when the incorrect charts were on board? :eek::eek:

[Nunc]

Not all Nev, crew have enough to deal with and I think QF have to have a more robust system in place to make sure the manuals are on board the aircraft. If a chart is missing in one book there is every chance it will be in the other, well that has always been my experience. I think in this instance there were no European chart manuals on the aircraft.

That said in the old days there was one Captain who gave the S/O a list of airport charts he wanted to be checked were on the aircraft before each flight. Good work to rule issue maybe??

[nomorecatering]

I find it ironic that today even a lowly C172 with G1000 can have jepp charts on the avionics system, and I believe that hey can be updated by sat internet. The newest Citations have a file server and that how its updated.

God knows how many $ were spent in this cockup, for want of a lowly laptop and a printer, whith Jeppview. The weight, maybe 3 pounds.

How many man hrs are spent each year updating paper chart packages at QF.

[ross_M]

When they turned around they were closer to LHR than HKG. What would be the reccomended procedure had they managed to ahem...."lose" the HKG charts too?

Maybe that was the expedient alternative in a pinch.......:E

[flyingfrenchman]

Do you require E1 from Aus to Asia??

[V-Jet]

An apparent screw up that would fall into the 'there, but for the grace of god...'

However, if my memory serves me correctly, it was a guy by the name of Max Surplice (not kidding) in charge of cost cutting that first came up with the great scheme of reducing manuals on aircraft to save money.

Bet he got a bonus for compromising an hitherto foolproof and successful system that had stood the test of time.

[Tempo]

I remember this happened a while back in Qantas. A classic departed out of Perth for Joburg without the appropriate charts.

Yep....the crew stuffed up. The person who signed the FSO folder (whoever that was) is probably the most to blame as it's his signature stating that the charts are on board.

However, to those who seem to be getting off on the fact that this Qantas crew and Qantas itself have been embarrassed, just remember. Aviation is all about making mistakes, recognizing them and then fixing them. I think we have all eaten a bit of humble pie over the years (with plenty left for seconds.....)

[Tempo]

The easiest guy to hang is the one who signed the FSOs, courtesy of the all-encompassing how-long-is-a-piece-of-string "ensure that the contents of the flight library are correct" motherhood statement in the FAM, which if taken to the n'th degree would mean signing on 4 hours before departure and doing an effective page and amendment check of about 20 books.

Yep.....true

one of numerous systemic problems the airline has had as a result of squeezing every dollar it can out of everything

Also very true!!

[DutchRoll]

The easiest guy to hang is the one who signed the FSOs, courtesy of the all-encompassing how-long-is-a-piece-of-string "ensure that the contents of the flight library are correct" motherhood statement in the FAM, which if taken to the n'th degree would mean signing on 4 hours before departure and doing an effective page and amendment check of about 20 books. However ultimately they all screwed up pretty much equally IMHO. I mean, each one of them, including the front seaters, would've had an obvious opportunity to spot the error. Plus the previous sector's crew too.

Regardless of that fact though, nobody's perfect. Some of us are just lucky enough to get away with our screwups.

But it all comes down to the fact that there's a systemic problem with flight libraries in Qantas - one of numerous systemic problems the airline has had as a result of squeezing every dollar it can out of everything. There are any number of ways to make the system more robust and error-tolerant but they all involve spending money, and that's just not the modern Qantas way.

[Autobrakes4]

Good point Dutch. Any money they have saved from the flight library's over the years just went up in smoke in the price of that diversion! $250,000+ :O

[ohallen]

Yes but it went to a good cause, the CEO remuneration pity the cost of these decisions is not taken back.

Then again IPAD's gifted to politicians and others could have been put to better use??

[frangatang]

Reminds me of when the first gulf war started , and we were over egypt somewhere enroute to Jnb. A call came from one of our 767s who had to divert to Nairobbery from Jeddah, without any aerodrome plates for said airfield, so he wrote it all down on a fag packet as we read the stuff out. No problem.

[flyingfox]

Great post Frangatan! From a time before pilots had been beaten into submission over 'what if's' by accountants, lawyers and legislators. Good old fashioned nous!!! :ok:

[OneDotLow]

The same thing happened on a JQ flight DRW - SIN a few years back. Fortunately when the guys got on the ground they were not out of hours and could continue.

Sh*t happens... Unfortunately sometimes it costs money.

Can all of the stone throwers attest to the fact that they have checked the charts every single time they have gone flying? Or have we all just been lucky to date.

[fatmike]

All this about a chart here and a chart there:
it's about extra books approximately 200mm X 120mm X 80mm all marked with an E for Europe. Extra books are needed to go to Europe in addition to the others. If you don't have the books marked with an E and you are heading anywhere west from the East coast of OZ past the sub-continent then you need them. If you only have a small number then you are short; if you have about twice the small number you probably have enough.
It not that hard especially when it is written as part of your job for each tour of duty.
Unless of course you are not doing what you are paid for, in which case what else are you not doing?

[Datum]

If the aircraft/crew didn't have the London plates on board, they also wouldn't have had the majority of the plates for the rest of Europe (Main airports and many of the alternates).. A Very High risk call for QF management to say 'Continue'.. Not a real problem, except if other isses (emergencies) were to compound the situation!..

[Transition Layer]

No-one has mentioned yet the additional requirement on the HKG-LHR sector to check the charts for the enroute alternates which form part of the escape procedure over China.

Some of those aerodromes (places like Almaty and Karaganda from memory) are in the Europe manuals.

It seems that specific pre-flight requirement wasn't met either :uhoh: