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QF029 HKG - LHR turnback?

Old 14th Sep 2011, 14:30
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QF029 HKG - LHR turnback?

Hi all,
So I received a message about 3 hours ago from a mate who was supposed to be in London by now on QF029. His message:
11hour flight to ****ing nowhere. Qantas didn't have official paperwork so weren't allowed in European airspace great work you pack of *****. Free accom and meal in honkers.
Indeed having a look at the Hong Kong airport departures and the 14 Sept, 07:35 departure is "Dly to 15/09".

So, I gather he is relaying the info they were told by staff, and if so, how could Qantas forget paperwork?? Any insights?
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Old 14th Sep 2011, 17:44
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QF29 Hong Kong to London (Heathrow)

Original Departure 07:35 (Wed) Arrival 13:30 (Wed)

New Departure 06:00 (Thu )DELAYED Arrival 11:55 (Thu)

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Old 14th Sep 2011, 17:57
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Lightbulb

It's happened a couple of times over the years. Invariably it's not due to any fault of Qantas but rather an error by controllers and/ or the administration of the ATC system by the respective State.

I have No specific information about this particular event and I certainly don't rule out a mistake at QFs end.
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Old 14th Sep 2011, 21:22
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This is a rumour network, i think you will find some very red faces. No charts for London.
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Old 14th Sep 2011, 22:05
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As someone said the other day, the greatest threat to the flight is the current industrial relations climate. ie. focus boys and girls,focus.
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Old 14th Sep 2011, 22:23
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Not having charts for London wouldn't stop you from going in there, and forcing you to turn back!

And if they did, the captain has a lot to answer for.
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Old 14th Sep 2011, 22:42
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Autobrakes,

How would you continue then if you don't have the legally required approach charts for the airport you are intending to use!!

I have been in an airline before who left the Jepp pack on the aerobridge and this was realised about 3 hours into a 5 hour flight. After talking to the company and relevant authorities they turned around and came back to the origin airport as they couldn't get permission to carry on without the LEGAL paperwork.

If they carried on to LHR and just happened to be ramp checked by the CAA they would be in serious trouble if not charts were onboard for the destination.
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Old 14th Sep 2011, 23:24
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How about divert to Frankfurt (or somewhere else suitable) in ten hours time and pick the charts up. . . . . .

I imagine this will be related to overflight clearance or something similar.
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 00:08
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Cultural Learnings of Qantas for Make Benefit Glorious Nation.....

Kazakhstan playing silly buggers?

Timeframe's about right.

Not having overflight clearances through European airspace sounds unlikely but being knocked back by Borat-stan doesn't.
Once you get to the border there, your options (as a QF flight) for other transit routes are quite limited.
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 01:00
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Just landed in HKG myself; heard 'QF029D' enquiring about the chances of a departure in the 25 direction (07 is currently in use) due to a 'technical problem'. Told 'cannot' so perhaps they'll have to offload payload to get off on 07 ....
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 05:50
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If what i am told is correct and that is that the European Charts were not in the flight libary and the S/O didnt pick it up then im still laughing because i believe they havnt stood any crew down, wait for it, because they are short of that rank. We are in great hands.
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 07:12
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If I didn't have the charts I would still go. It's all in the FMC and with the advent of iPads, I know I have always got a copy of departure, destination & alternate uploaded! The only thing I can think of in this case is that pilots are just ramming it up management's @rse. And so they should. QF management, what a complete circus of mammoth proportions......
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 08:19
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It would appear that the" Qantas pilot for a Qantas flight"stuffed up ie the S/O. I hope he had his red tie on.
As for Dragon Man, Iron Bar Autobrakes 4 and other brave people I suggest you read the rules. To operate into airspace without charts is ILLEGAL unless of course it is an emergency. Artificial horizon has got it about right.
Keg, C441, you're incorrect. It was never about overflight clearances.
Dragon Man regarding standing the crew down, be careful you don't get what you wish for. Someone may take up your challenge.
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 08:21
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It would appear that the" Qantas pilot for a Qantas flight"stuffed up ie the S/O. I hope he had his red tie on.
As for Dragon Man, Iron Bar Autobrakes 4 By Pass ratio and other brave people I suggest you read the rules. To operate into airspace without charts is ILLEGAL unless of course it is an emergency. Artificial horizon has got it about right.
Keg, C441, you're incorrect. It was never about overflight clearances.
Dragon Man regarding standing the crew down, be careful you don't get what you wish for. Someone may take up your challenge.
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 08:30
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Getting into LHR would be easy enough without charts (legalities aside):
"Leave Lambourne heading 270..etc etc..." then "intercept 27R localiser".

The real issue would arise if you needed to divert somewhere else you're completely unfamiliar with. Which is most of Europe since we don't really fly anywhere anymore!!!
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 09:29
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Why did the SO stuff up? You tell me where it says for the SO to check if the charts are on board? Even if they are how are you to know they are actually valid and the current charts? What if the charts are out of date, what would you actually check to ensure the thousands of pages in those Jepps are actually up to date?
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 10:12
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Almostthere - FAM 7.4.1
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 10:15
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Firstly, I have no idea why the aircraft turned back and I am not speculating on the reason here.

Regarding the charts that should be on board, there should be two hard copies of the destination and alternate charts and one hard copy of the enroute charts for Europe.

The problem is that flight libraries change depending on where the aircraft is going. There are three possible options on the -400, Pacific charts only, Pacific plus Europe or Pacific plus Americas.

Last minute aircraft changes mean the correct charts may not be on board. Flight libraries are supposed to pick it up but these things do get missed occasionally.

F/Os (and S/Os are delegated the role by the FAM when they are carried) are the last line of defence. It's an antiquated and outdated system that has caused problems and significant expense in the past.

There is a strong argument for an EFB capable of carrying all required charts - Pacific, Europe and Americas - in one easy to carry format. Now, where's my iPad?
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 10:16
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Are there normally one hard copy onboard? Or need to pick up by SO every flight?
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Old 15th Sep 2011, 10:19
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And heres me thinking that Qantas Pilots are like the Pope . Infallible!
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