Confirmed Faker. Suggest next move?

[bytheotherside]

An A320 Captain in China has been found out as a faker and fired. He was confirmed as a low hour european f/o until very recently. All paperwork was fake.

I was surprised because of the amount of paperwork checks required by the Chinese but he made it through. It was clear to every pilot that he did not hold his command or even flight hours he said he had.

How do we as an industry ensure that people like this do not get ahead unfairly with their lies?
What will stop them from showing up at another airline claiming to be Captains once again?
Suggestions please.

[westhawk]

A diligent pre-employment screening process. Interviews, records, skills/knowledge assessment, background check... Just the usual things done by competent employers.

[flyhardmo]

Jail them. Prison time in china sounds about right. This is happening alot more than it should so the only way to deter idiots like this is charge them for a whole lot of offences such as fraud, endangering flight safety etc.

Unfortunately several months ago a whole lot of Chinese pilots faked their hours and were only given re-training. There will be many more in the future Unless someone does something about it. :=

[parabellum]

I agree with Jazz Hands, such fakers should be charged with criminal offences, if at all possible, "Unnecessarily endangering life" comes to mind but may be hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt. If the falsification of the paper work can be made a criminal offence, (maybe it is?), then a nice fat criminal record will make future jobs very hard to get, possible effect licence issue and certainly effect the issue of an airside pass.

[westhawk]

See my previous post for preventative measures. As for how to punish these frauds? Oh I'll go along with whatever you guys want to to do to them and more. I'll also reserve some scorn for the idiots who are responsible for the policies which failed to detect them all throughout the hiring/training/line checking process. Maybe just some caning or other public humiliation for them!

[nicolai]

If the falsification of the paper work can be made a criminal offence, (maybe it is?

In the United Kingdom, I expect that the Fraud Act 2006 would apply, "Fraud by false representation" (formerly "Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception", before 2007), and that's criminal law. But I am not a lawyer. I would expect that misrepresenting yourself to get money (Captain's salary!) would be illegal in most places!

[Mercenary Pilot]

A diligent pre-employment screening process. Interviews, records, skills/knowledge assessment, background check... Just the usual things done by competent employers. I agree with westhawk, it is lazy recruiting practices that generally allow this to happen. Its typically very easy to see a bull****ter via the sim and under line training by a competent checker, if they have even been allowed to get that far that is!

[flyhardmo]

Take away their licenses and ban them for life from the industry. Have their names and prints sent to every CAA worldwide.

[Capt Chambo]

As "most" foreign pilots in China are employed through a greedy agency perhaps the agencies too ought to be accountable. That would ensure that they did some proper background checks as well, before submitting an applicant! Just a thought.

[powerup]

Looks like another fake pilot in India, but for a change it's an aussie national. It took Rishworth 3 years to find out that he had fudged his flying hours.
See the article below....

Aussie pilot vanishes, derostered - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Aussie-pilot-vanishes-derostered/articleshow/9939667.cms)

:ok:

[Oakape]

Looks like another fake pilot in India, but for a change it's an aussie national. It took Rishworth 3 years to find out that he had fudged his flying hours

I was listening for over 30 minutes to a long & involved discussion on this & other subjcts on 123.45 last night.

All very interesting.

[BandAide]

It's not a new problem. Fate is the Hunter, the seminal pilot's story, has a good chapter on a fellow who did the same thing way back when. He was discovered while navigating West Coast-Hawaii, totally lost.

He was fired from that job, but managed to secure a captain's seat at another company where he ended up killing himself and all his passengers.

[Evanelpus]

An A320 Captain in China has been found out as a faker and fired. He was confirmed as a low hour european f/o until very recently. All paperwork was fake.

How long had he been there before he got found out?

I say take their licenses off them for life.:ok:

[DC-ATE]

How do you "solve" the fake pilot problem ? Simple. Put his/her picture on the front page of every newspaper in the World with the headline:

Fake pilot SHOT.

Sub headline: Don't try this at home !!

Storyline: Fake pilot caught and SHOT by authorities. Etc., etc.

[Clandestino]

Since the time he joined AI Express as a commander in 2008, Capt Goran Pavicevic has flown over 2,800 hoursDoesn't sound like tipical Aussie name or surname. Most probably ex-Yugoslav. Was he perchance flying for JAT/Aviogenex/Adria in 1980s?

He was fired from that job, but managed to secure a captain's seat at another company where he ended up killing himself and all his passengers. [pedantic mode] Actually the captain, identified by mr Gann as Dudley, survived the crash only to commit suicide later. [/pedantic mode]

[Mercenary Pilot]

Have their names and prints sent to every CAA worldwide. In my experience with a Western EASA regulated aviation authority, very little will happen (however of course it should still be reported). Its really down to the airlines themselves to detect and not hire these individuals.

[BandAide]

I shouldn't refer only to memory. Point taken. The lesson remains intact, however.

On reconsideration, though, he apparently did end up killing himself, eh?

[Dani]

Normally, NAAs (National Aviation Authorities) are able to produce letters of confirmation for all its license holders. It's strange to see that certain NAAs (in this case: China and India) do not make use of this institution.

A license holder's NAA could easily give answer to the career one has made.

[fdr]

looking at the AI doc:
http://www.airindiaops.com/aiops/downloads/supervised%20take-off%20and%20landing.pdf

the Hravskan's are pretty well represented. If the "Australian" has falsified docs, would think that a closer look at his mates would be of great interest to the authorities... :=

[bytheotherside]

The reason for this thread was to discuss things that we as pilots can do to put a halt to these guys simply moving from airline to airline each time they get found out. Eventually the rank/rating will stick and they will be flying aircraft they have never been trained for or operating in roles they have never been deemed suitable for.
Agencies and employers play a "dont ask, dont tell" game it seems, especially once the person has been hired. Aviation authorities wont go near the issue, especially when it involves flying in another jurisdiction.

Anytime a faker has been found out that I have heard of, they just move on to another continent or region. No long-term detrimental effect on their career from faking professional qualilfications and having put lives at risk.

Airlines just dont want the publicity. Any national press would have a field day with a scandal like a fake captain.

Understandably pprune have a policy of not allowing people to be named. Neither is corporal punishment practically an option I'm afraid... His location is unknown. But if he shows up in another asian country claiming to be a captain and instigates a hull loss in 3 years time who is responsible?

I've seen other threads in this forum get swamped by people wanting to drown this issue. In my mind only someone with a falsified background themselves (whether its experience, flight hours, rank or type) would want to bury this discussion. It's endemic in this industry.

[Molokai]

btos....bravo:D:D:D Agree with you 1000%!

I've seen other threads in this forum get swamped by people wanting to drown this issue. In my mind only someone with a falsified background themselves (whether its experience, flight hours, rank or type) would want to bury this discussion. It's endemic in this industry

These fellas roam these forums. Plenty of such characters in KAL, CAL, EVA, Vietnam, Jet, Indigo, etc

[big white bird]

Worked with this guy about four or five years ago.

He left the airline under a cloud for Emirates.

Someone at EK did a basic check.

"Hi, it's (so and so) from Emirates here. We're doing a background check on Captain (X). May I trouble you to ask how long he was the Fleet Manager, please?"

"Uh, who did you say is calling?"

"(so and so) from EK. Sorry to trouble you with this."

"That's alright. Perfectly ok. However you are in fact speaking with the Fleet Manager. My name is (Y), and I've been in this position for quite a few years. I'm sorry to tell you this, but (X) was never the Fleet Manager here, however he was a Captain. Let me assist you to verify what I've just said."

EK thanked the FM at my previous airline, and immediately rescinded the offer of employment to the pilot named in this link.

Mint Series | Foreign, but not entirely safe - Home - livemint.com (http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/12000656/Mint-Series--Foreign-but-not.html)

Fraud is fraud.

While the good book might suggest not casting the first stone, there is a limit to turning the other cheek!

[big white bird]

It's all well and good to say "oh, but he was just trying to feed his family", or some such lame comment.

This guy was not only a faker, but a deceptive liar of extraordinary temerity.

He maintained he was a test pilot for Boeing, and was head hunted by EK to run the B747-8 program.

Few took him at his word.

India apparently did, to what is no longer muted disgust.

Authorities should do something more concrete about this, something in the way of prevention instead of reaction.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

I guess he can state he has PIC time now for his next job application.
Albeit illegal PIC time.

[Left Coaster]

The guy in the article is a con artist of the "first water"! He has pulled the wool over the eyes of some first class airlines and aviation personnell providers! The list is long and distinguished! I would guess there are a few red faces out there after he was outed!:eek:

[Bokkenrijder]

Keep him in China and let him stay in the LHS!

The Chinese fake everything, from Louis Vuitton bags to Rolexes to DVD's, so he'll fit right in! :ok:

[kinteafrokunta]

They may manufacture fakes but they don't use them! Only first world cheapskates buy and use the fakes!:=

Jade Cargo, China Cargo helped manufacture many western fakes who ended in Korean, Asiana, Air Vietnam, etc!:=

[DX Wombat]

In the UK there is a scheme whereby troublemakers who are banned from one pub in an area are banned from them all - a simple message conveys the information to the other pubs. In these days of electronic communications would it not be possible for the airline which has uncovered the fake pilot to send a simple, general email to all other airlines stating simply that Fred Bloggs, Evan Evans or whoever had been sacked because of irregularities in his paperwork? It could also be accompanied by a recent photo - say a copy of his security pass photo. I know it sounds a bit simplistic, but sometimes the simple things work well.

[fdr]

"they may produce fakes...."kinteafrokunta

the RSA's very own SA CAA is hardly on the forefront of fraud suppression... given that (according to CAA sources) recently the SA CAA has moved to allow local pilots with a criminal record to be given licenses, persons that have cheated on exams to be given licenses, and in fact have not acted against those that were given the information as to what questions would be in the exams, and also given the answers.

Fraud is fraud. In a global workforce, the acceptance of fraud as a way of doing business affects the whole workforce. While the topic happens to be pilots, it is prevalent in other disciplines as well, such as medicine.

The authorities do not help, their arrogance and parochialism has resulted in the situation that there are some 180 different ways of complying with one international set of standards. A common standard would be far easier to evaluate, yet we cannot even agree on manner of recording experience, or standards of knowledge testing.

[Apparently crime does pay, the recent completion of career of a "character" from a North Asian Carrier culminates a history of fraud that spans since 1982 (according to Flight International contemporaneous reports and the AAIB supporting information)].

[Bokkenrijder]

In the UK there is a scheme whereby troublemakers who are banned from one pub in an area are banned from them all...Well, in that case you might as well ban China as a country. Oh, and why stop there: just ban the whole of Asia! :ok:

I' completely agree with all the concerned law abiding citizens in this thread that this is a huuuuuuge problem (much bigger than the race to the bottom deterioration of T&C's in our beloved industry) so therefore I'm pleading for microchip implants (you know, just like they already do with pets!) instead of pilot licenses and type ratings.

These microchips can then be automatically synchronized with a microchip reader installed in all cockpits of airliners with a higher MTOW of 5700kgs, which automatically logs flight time, type ratings, take off's landings and from which seat. Airline HR departments will, for verification purposes, also have these chip readers installed next to a hidden trap door in order to dispose of any bullsh!tartists presenting themselves at the interview! That will teach 'em! :}

[Postman-LEJ]

Pre-employment testing etc. will not do. Neither will interviews. If anything, only line training will show deficencies. If nothing else, you have got to give him credit for guts...or naive stupidity.

In the end, apparently nothing will deter a criminal mind; if caught, should be treated as such.

Leaves me to wonder if the DFO/TRE/TRI demigods have the eperience their credentials suggest.

Problem is in initial training! Every turd with money can get a ticket these days, since it's profit over quality in the competitive flight school business.

In 12 years of command, a picture is forming. The majority of the freshmen/women I percieve to have egos the size of Texas and matching attitudes. The emphasis has shifted working hard to learn the trade to OFF days, payscales and seniority. I am not surprised to see many disillusioned and cranky.

[Levraimatt]

If you bought your licenses and are a faker, there are very few chances you'll make it through IOE... It's a pretty good filter.

[Kirks gusset]

With the explosion in demand for Captains this problem will only get larger and the Fakers will turn up anywhere that English is not the mother tongue as they know they will not be too closely probed. I suspect many claim theyl come from airlines that have ceased trading so background checks impossible to a degree, as " work colleagues" will be alter egos of these guys as well. Having said all that, the "real deal" can be very quickly identified at screening, but of course, screening is sometimes pocket deep and bias towards the positive result due to the shortage. I would take away their licence, but that is not an easy thing to do, a criminal conviction would suit best as there is no escaping that by muddy waters and it would come up on the CRC checks. I wonder if the " command hours" as a faker count,, I suspect they do as the guy is operating and sitting in the LHS!

[Dan Winterland]

There is only one thing we can do - expose them wherever we find them to the authorities. Reputable airlines do check, but there are some who don't or don't seem to care. You can bet the insurers will care if a faker causes a claim and it's found in the subsequent investigation that they don't have the required hours for a command!

Here's a good example.

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Cheating pilot’s new career is flying high (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/51398)

[UK019]

DX Wombat - that would be the best way IF every airline was peopled by people of integrity at the top. My worry would be the nasty little outfit where a guy has, say, exposed some 'irregularities' in the operation. The method you suggest could be used to screw his career for life by the vindictive and the unscrupulous. Methinks this problem should always be handled by the Regulatory Authority.

Provided they are scrupulous, of course. Hmmmmm....... :(

[DC-ATE]

WHY are you people being so easy on this guy ?!?! He not only endangers the lives of others, but could be you or yours as well. Please re-read my prior post: SHOOT HIM !!

[HKPAX]

Can't they be tattooed on the inside of the little finger or whatever, 10 years hard labour as the alternative. Makes checking easier. Or is that too medieval?

[Microburst2002]

Since this problem is becoming more and more serious, ICAO should intervene by creating an office who would confirm any fakes and then publish the names, in a web page. All a recruiting team would have to do is check the web.
They should include name and other details, so if John Smith is a faker they don't ban a thousand pilots...

[parabellum]

Thr problem is Microburst2002 that if the job was given to ICAO to run the data base they would probably outsource the it to India!;)

[gtf]

Use of database doesn't even have to be mandatory. Just get FAA and/or JAA to participate and insurers will do the rest.

So Mr Dubious Chinese Airline, you want insurance? Give us your roster and we will run it by ICAO database or premiums go up 50%...

Once enough insurers do it, airlines will want only pilots in the database, so every legit pilot will want to be in. If not the insurance, then the lender, or the leasing company. You get the idea. If the database cometh, plenty will want it used.

Already done at the national level in many countries for many industries. My better half can't hire a van driver without letting the insurance have a peek at his record.

[launchpad74]

Hi guys . . yes pilots who fake their credentials should be dealt with harshly . .they are playing with peoples lives. Big scandals in India as well recently.
So what does one do when you discover someone who has knowingly faked their hours or credentials. I know of such a person, in Africa, who gained an ATP and admitted to faking his night hours. Yet he is the one being offered lucrative positions on CRJ's etc . . what to do?

[CAPTAINNIC]

..and in Turkey the copilots log PF ( pilot flying time ) as PIC time in their logbook and claim this is legal and in accordance of the company and Turkish DGCA.
I dont know about exact legality but it just does not sound right to log PIC hours when in fact you are a copilot..

==> so when a copilot has 4500 hours total time, 4000 as Copilot on say B737 and does an upgrade to be Captain, his logbook already pretends he has 2000 PIC time on B737 and he qualifies for selection as DECDR with Turkish Airlines.

also he is in advantage for all other airlines over the honest pilot who logs only real PIC time as PIC...

[Avenger]

The Turkish Co-Pilots log P1 hours for the ATPL release, but under DGCA rules they must have 5 yrs post CPL and 4500 TT on multi crew aircraft before being upgraded. Also, the situation is black and white as the log book also has a column for " Commander" and even if logged as PI in the Co_pilot logbook, the " Commanders Name" is present so it is obvious that it is not actually PIC time, the " Commander" has to sign off the entries.
This is a much better system than the guy who has 1500 P1 all on C150 being shown as part of his/ her total time, which is complete nonsense.
To make DEC with THY you will need a lot more than 2000hrs actual PIC, lets start around 6000 hrs as a ball park.