Life and lifestyle of a pilot

[EI 666]

OK, I'm seriously considering applying for BA sponsorship, and IF successful I will quite my MEng Computer Science degree. Am i wise?

Anyway, my question to all you pilots, what is your lifestyle like: working hours, relationships, family life, leisure time... etc, anything you deem important.

Right now I could go all the way for a big fat IT or investment banking job, making an absolute killing money-wise, but I am aware that pilots are well-paid (go on admit it) and have that smile going to work rather than an AK-47 to shoot the dumb-ass systems analyst who won't co-operate with you. Am I still wearing my rose-coloured glasses? :rolleyes:

Please help in these matters. I am facing a huge crossroads. Any help at all would be great.

Thx in anticipation,
P. :rolleyes:

[FlyFreeWbe]

I'm definitely no pilot (yet) but I do think that even if you're at a crossroads, you shouldn't just quit your MEng. I plan on doing the university thing and hopefully applying for sponsorship soon enough. The only reason I'm doing uni is that I'll have something to fall back on if I get the trouble that some of these other PPRuNers are having (i.e. getting to a certain level, but never making it).
Really think about how soon you really need (want) to be pilot and wiegh the costs. Sure, the lifestyle is a good thing to ask about, but do you really want BA to know that they've hired someone who started a MEng at uni, only to quit once they got a hold of "better things"?
Also think about the risk factor of the job you want to jump into. I can't seriously say I know everything, but I've thought damn hard about every possible pro and con.
You're certainly quite a knowledgeable guy to be doing a MEng at uni, but remember wisdom is what you do with that knowledge. Don't think badly of me but
Am i wise?
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/yeees.gif

[silverknapper]

I can't believe it is even a consideration. I completed an MSc, much to my great dismay - hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that.I consider it to be a waste of 5 years. Having been knocked back at 18 by BA, my biggest regret is not going down the self improver route quick enough and instead going to uni. In my opinion - one I share with many friends who are now in good airline jobs - if you want to fly there should be no question of waiting to finish degrees or what is the money like. This attitude suggests that it is the lifestyle and not the sheer thrill of flying an aircraft which appeals to you. It is a good lifestyle don't get me wrong but were BA to KB you (which i sincerely hope they don't)would you be prepared to put yourself in 50k of debt to reach the same goal. I may sound touchy on this. However I am in this position now and honestly have nothing but regret for my time at uni - if you get chopped from flying then consider finishing your masters

[LRdriver]

Yea, thats right, take a training slot from somebody who REALLY wants to be a pilot.
The fact that you look at it as a way to get dosh is the most ignorant drivel I have ever heard. If you don't have the real desire and love of aviation you will soon get pissed at the late nights and early starts, the hard work and never being home for the family every night. And if the BA thing misfires I doubt you even have the will and grit to work long hours for next to no pay, cleaning toilets in airplanes at 3 in morning, dealing with crap airplanes AND get up the next day and do it all again, just for the love of the job. My hats off to the self improver.
So just bugger off and find an IT job like the rest of the lazy gits..

My 2p..

[NigelS]

I'm at the beginning of what is going to be a long and expesive journey. I love flying and if I get a job doing it will be thrilled beyond belief. I would do it for next to nothing in fact.

Question though; the comment above mentions cleaning toilets at 3am.. I have never heard of such a thing. Is it true? I have a love of aviation but would seriously be averse to cleaning aircraft toilets. Please advise.. Thanks in advance

Nigel

[LRdriver]

My point was that in self improving and GA/corporate aviation, We have to wear many hats as we have many jobs. Take my job, captain for a private jet charter outfit, I have to deal with catering, loading bags, pax handling, getting the toilet serviced and aircraft cleaned at 3 in morning on some godforsaken ramp in a rainshower with some nitwit who doesn't speak english(result I will do it all myself to avoid damaging the 10£ million asset). Having once been a young'un myself I remember the 21 hour workdays and getting up the next day to do it all again for the love of the game. So if you genuinely love aviation you will find the resolve and commitment to stick with it.
I have seen many guys start the career and only see it as a jobwith good money (lets not forget that the money is good after 20 years of service and NOT as an FO), theankfully they have gone elsewere when their interest waned ("its not like I thought..boohoo")
Choose one or the other, Aviation does not pay short term..
Best of luck in your further endevours

[Devils Advocate]

What ?! ....... "I'm seriously considering applying for BA sponsorship, and IF successful I will quite my MEng Computer Science degree. Am i wise?"

No, you're not (and you're not that great at spelling either - A.K.A. attention to detail - a useful trait in a pilot, or IT professional ) !

Uhm, BA sponsorship, that's the one where 20000 people apply for 50 or so cadet places (i.e. odds of several 100's to 1) right ?! With odds that long I'd take-off those rose tinted glasses - and w.r.t. 'facing a huge crossroads' in your life - erhm, I'd have thought that simply making an application (and given the odds) is hardly a 'huge crossroads', e.g. I'd only start fretting about what to do if / when BA say "welcome onboard".


Now to answer your specific points:

Working hours - yes, lots of them ! Aviation is no longer the halcyon days of yesteryear. Nowadays it's dog-eat-dog commercially and you can expect to work VERY hard indeed - even at BA.

Relationships - Wife to me…. "Jeez honey you look beat ! Now I don't suppose that you want to go out, so please be a dear and look after the kids while I do...... Seeyaaa !"

Family life - "Mummy who's that strange bloke who comes in and out at all hours of the night and day ?"

Leisure Time - yep, I once had some of that.

Pay - I brought in a lot more from IT than I do from flying - that's why I still do IT.

Also remember that you're potentially only ever one medical (and I assume that you've passed a CAA Class One already ? ) away from the loss of your license and, god forbid that you should actually lose it, what would you then do to earn a crust ?

My advice is to continue towards your MEng, and in the meantime also apply to BA; You never know, you might get lucky and yield a result in both, but in any event one of either has to be good.

[Kermit 180]

Well paid? :confused: A life? :confused:

Maybe for those of us who escape the clutches of GA and wriggle into an airline job. It's a long long road...

Kermie

[EI 666]

Ok, I must say I've never come across such bloody condescension in my life. How the hell would you fit your head and that giant chip (on your shoulder that is, must be concise if I am to be a pilot after all) in the biggest of cockpits. I wholeheartedly apologise if my spelling and grammar were not top notch on that ocassion. I would like to ask is being a pedantic, condescending **** an advantage for a pilot also?

In reply to LRdriver I think I know where you should put your "2p". Now, was that the grammatically correct way to quote someone, Devils Advocate?

I think I'd imagine that any demanding job, IT or otherwise, will take over your life. Anything in life that is worth the effort is never easy. Get over your self-gratification.
:mad: :mad:

[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: EI 666 ]

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Back to the original question.

If you get selected by Ba all well and good, nice little earner for the next 30ish years, althuogh probably not as much as an IT thingie.

If/when you don't get selected by BA and decide to do it yourself, expect 1-2 years of hard work & little/no income, as you are training.

Possibily a couple of years instructing, with little pay but lots of work during the summer, and little work and even less pay during the winter.

When lucky you might get a turbo F/O position expect to be away from home for a fair bit, but at least you're earning a bit more, and from here the progress pay wise is generally on the up.(However as a turbo F/O myself I still have to work a day and a half to pay the plaster/plumber/electician etc for 6 hours work.)

I don't have exact figures, but generally pilots, as professionals, earn towards the bottom of the list compared to everyone else.But it is a great job!!

:D :D

[VFE]

Aside from the comments already made EI666, I thought I would add my story as it stands today.

I start a self-sponsored ab-initio course in October after months of writting business plans, grovelling to bank managers and begging parents to assist in whatever way they could. The result is that I have borrowed £54'000 from the bank which, when payed back, will be somewhere in the region of £84'000.
What I am trying to point out is, that as you can already see, there are loadsa folks out there willing to chop their right arm off to fund their flying career and with competition like that you would be wise to consider very carefully (as you already are doing!) before you attempt to enter the industry.

I am not surprised by some of the scathing remarks sent in reply to your original post but I do feel that more constructive advice could have been offered by some of those professionals.

Apply to BA if it's what you really want, if not, be a chap and leave the way open to those wannabes more desperate to get in the right hand seat.

At the end of the day my advice would be to have a few lessons (if you haven't already) and see if the bug bites you as hard as it does for most of us around here. If not, IT is probably the best route forward for you.

I hope you get a few more balanced opinions to the original questions you asked.

Best of luck whatever you may deceide,

VFE.

[LRdriver]

My apologies for stepping on some willys in here.. I agree with the previous post, Think long and hard about the impending move.
Whats even better (and my choice had I had the brains..) become a dot com'mer, get a PPL buy an old L-39 and have fun whenyou retire next year..see, have your pie and eat it :)
also I am entitled to my opinion and if we didn't express them this BBS would be a whole lot more boring..

[Mr moto]

I'd like to point out that for anyone who has to think about it, the answer has got to be not to fly.

As LRDriver and one or two others mentioned, its a long road that saw me sweeping hangar floors, cleaning aeroplanes, washing up, McDonalds, bar-tending, warehouse work, laying asphalt(without machines), and changing nappies on handicapped people in the middle of the night.

Was it worth it? Every minute!

However, I heard Richard Briers give some advice to would-be actors on Parky.
He said, "If you really, really, really want to be an actor,,,,don't!
If you can't do anything else, then go for with everything!"

I think the same is true for flying. And there's nothing worse than listening to brats who went through integrated courses and never tried real work complaining about their jobs!

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Jeez. Anybody would think pilots are the only people who have to put a hard days work in.

There are some serious to$$ers in here with their heads firmly up their own ********* Hope I never have the misfortune to meet or fly with some of you people.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: Jetdriver ]

[LRdriver]

I find that reply ironic, considering you are a heli pilot..
I would have thought that you out of all people would understand the work it takes to get a foot in. I may have over reacted in my first post but hey, this is an open BBS board in a free world..

with love,
LRdriver (with many friends in offshore and network jobs)

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Not directed to you alone Lrdriver :) but a bit of food for thought perhaps?

It’s not ironic just because I am a heli pilot, but realistic. Yes it can be a hard slog to get a “foot in” as you put it. It is also expensive. But show me anything worthwhile in life that is not hard work? Just because the guy is not a madly passionate wannabe does not mean he will not make a good pilot. I am not passionate about telecomms engineering in the same way I am about flying, but I am bloody good at it! :D I am sure there are many deserving people who save and work hard but will just not make it. Sad, but such is life I am afraid. :(


I get sick and tired of people claiming there is certain rights of passage that you must pass to do the job. It is all hard work and only the mad and workaholics need apply. Believe me I have worked harder in the past than any pilot I have seen.

It is just a job at the end of the day. Being a pilot is nothing more than any other profession when you strip away the layers of mystique surrounding it? It requires a certain type of person, but so does civil engineering. OK it is fun and satisfies certain people’s passions, mine included but you either have it or you don’t!

I thought people round here would have answered the guy’s questions rather than ridicule him, which is what happened.

Rant mode off…..Flame suit on :D

[Mr moto]

Hey Vortex, you said it yourself, "You've either have it or you don't!"

We just pointed out what 'IT' is!

It's passion and the folks who come quickly into this biz without it often end up dissatisfied because if you don't really really like it it can be a **** job.

I don't know how many thousand pounds it takes these days to get close to being a serious applicant but would you advise someone to spend the type of money that can buy a decent flat/house, for a qualification with absolutely no garuntees of a job?

You'd be crazy to take on that kind of odds!

And the people who are going to make it are going to make it despite all this honest advice!

[NorthernSky]

EI666,

If I could turn the clock back to the day I decided to take up a career in aviation, and un-make that decision, I would. This is something I think about every day, sad to say.

Why? All the points above about being over-worked stand up - and there's no better time to feel rueful than at 0130, driving to work after a few hours' scrappy sleep, and facing the prospect of doing a long duty to some holiday hot-spot with a sub-standard airport, unless it's at 1030 as you make your approach back into home base, eyes heavy from too many disrupted nights and too little quality R&R.

I, for one, will admit that the money is not bad. It's not good, but it's not bad.

The lifestyle issue is a big one. Cheap airlines now work their pilots to the maximum limits, and others have to follow suit to stay competitive. We're all, I believe, working harder.

I find a lot of the industry management to be seriously defective, especially in relation to safety issues. When you go to work every day knowing that you're about to do things a bad way, and that you can't get that changed because the people who make change won't or don't listen or care, or even have enough understanding to make a valid decision on an issue, it's hard to take pride in your job. (I'm not saying this happens everywhere, or at my own company, but there's no doubt it is widespread).

Before I pass the soap-box on, I'll mention professional pride and respect of one's peers. I have noticed, even in the last few years, how the manner in which people treat my colleagues and me has changed. Perhaps it's a consequence of all the stories blaming 'pilot error' for accidents, or the greater availability of air travel that has made it less 'special' than it was, but the respect accorded us is diminishing in volume and frequency.

But the one definite reason you should continue with your degree and into your IT or banking career, EI666, is that once in that career you can move around from discipline to discipline, get involved in different aspects of your business - in short - your skills will be flexible. Pilots can fly. That's all. Hit 40, and there's virtually no chance of doing anything with your life other than hurtling around the world at all hours and trying to save enough for an early retirement.

It's not all bad, of course, but there's no doubt in my mind that the bad outweighs the good by a considerable margin, and the fact that you end up with a single skill in a volatile and unpredictable market should tip your decision.

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: NorthernSky ]

[EI 666]

Thx NorthernSky for the 'plain facts'. I don't think BA or any other airline would publish those in their pilot scheme brochures! :cool:

[twistedenginestarter]

It's mainly non-stop sex. Which put some people off. :cool:

[Desk-pilot]

Northernsky,

Thanks for the candid insight! I always feel it's very sad when someone is in a career they now regret taking up. If it's any consolation I ended up working in Management and IT after Graduating in the early 1990's when none of the airlines were running cadet schemes (was actually waiting for final selection stage when BA froze recruitment!). I've worked for 10 years now sitting in stuffy offices having endless pointless meetings and staring for hours at a relentless tide of email hating nearly every blasted day of it. Rest assured the glossy Graduate brochures for Management careers don't tell the true story about office work either. The days of lavish expense accounts and nice perks are gone. The eradication of secretaries has meant that as a junior or middle manager you spend huge amounts of time on administrative tasks rather than things which utilise your specialist skills and the hugely increased workload and pressure makes for long days with often no breaks and little time for any fun or human contact. In addition budget constraints and a proliferation of bean counters mean that you can't just get on and change things - you have to fight the bureaocrats every step of the way. Nobody should live like this and I've reached a point where I'm about to get out of it and start an ATPL. I've spent 10 years staring out of my office window watching you guys up there in the blue and I'd like to join you!

Of all my friends it seems ironic that the happiest are either teachers, work for the Forestry commission or for themsleves - none of which are considered either 'sexy' or well paid careers.

Seems as though the quality of working life is diminishing across the patch!

Desk-pilot

[snooky]

Well put Northern Sky.
What I once thought would be a good career I cannot now wait to retire from.
The other problem to be faced is that with seniority being so important it is very difficult to shift between employers with a large salary loss.
I think that the job is truly ruined by mismanagement in airlines. Airline management seems to attract the most incompetent people with the largest egos. (with a few exceptions of course).
I would be truly dismayed if any child of mine wanted to follow this career.

[Mr moto]

It was starting to sound like a reverse Monty Python sketch, "We worked 25 hrs a day, 8 days a week....!"

Thanks for the balance in the above posts.

EI666, I'd like to give you the same advice as my father gave me. Go to college, go to university, (one with a University Air Squadron),get a good job to pay for your CPL. Then you also have qualification you can use when someone drives into you and you lose your medical.

You'll always have the degree once you've got it AND the modern airlines like graduates.

For the record, I didn't listen. He may have been right.

[trytofly]

EI 666

There's so much to the job. The stick and rudder skills are bread and butter these days. If you want to be a pilot..accept criticism without flying off the handle and being insulting. It's a close and confined office and personal skills are v. important.
Learn from what these people are trying to tell you..rather than ditch their experience in your bin because you think you know better. If you react like that on your first sim I guarantee it will be your last. :eek:

[mutt]

LRdriver,

Is England getting this bad?

on some godforsaken ramp in a rainshower with some nitwit who doesn't speak english

Mutt :)