JAA Logbook, Logging PF time for Co-Pilots

[320wonder]

gentlemen,

can i log my time as PIC(countersigned by the commander) when i as a co-pilot acted as Pilot Flying for that particular leg of flight? , there's no column for P1U/S in my JAA format logbook

in the old UK CAP logbook, we used to log PF sectors as P1U/S.

[ElitePilot]

Just add PICUS in the remarks section or /US in the P1 section...
Accepted for me with JAA and ICAO authorities when I applied for ATPL licenses. They do need to be countersigned though.

[320wonder]

thanks brother...

was wondering how to unfreeze my ATPL if i logged under P2 , because in the ATPL application form, it clearly asks for P1, P1U/S and P2 hours

[Denti]

It depends on licensing authority. JAR 1.080 c) (5) explains

(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.

For the UK CAA every flight with any captain is an acceptable method of supervision, it doesn't need to be a pilot flying sector either. For most other european authorities you can only log PICUS in a structured training environment, usually partly done during the initial license training and the rest during a command course.

As far as i know it will change again next year with the new european licensing rules anyway.

[menikos]

Hello,

I did a stupid mistake I logged my PICUS hours as P2 can I add simply add PICUS on the remark section and have the logbook stamped by the company and also whose name has to be filled on the column (Name of PIC) yours or the captain ?

Cheers.

[daladaladriver]

i don't think you can just change your hours after the fact... your logbook will look all suspicious. i'm still not sure how one can log what is essentially PIC, from the right seat without having an official left seat check. maybe i should go way back in my logbook, and change half of my navajo copilot time to PICUS, nice. that solves it, now i have 500 MPIC.

[gorter]

What country? The UK only require a letter from your employer confirming the hours you claim, whether they be p1 p2 or picus

[Level Attitude]

For my LIFUS period, i logged flt time in PIC and also DUAL when i was flying
but what about pilot monitoring ? Should i log like Co-pilot and DUAL?



I do not know what LIFUS stands for?

Did you perform different functions at different times during a single flight?
You cannot Log the same time twice!
If you add up your PIC + Co-Pilot + DUAL times in your Log Book the
number must be the same as Total Time of Flight (Column 6).

- If you were under Instruction then time goes in DUAL Column.

- If you were the Commander of the aircraft then time goes in PIC
and your name goes in the PIC Name column (Column 7)

In Multi-Crew Operations only
- If you were acting as the Commander (making all decisions about where,
when and how the aircraft flew), but being supervised (referred to as PICUS)
then time goes in PIC Column provided the actual Commander agrees and signs
your Log Book to that effect (their name goes in the PIC Name Column).
NB: Under supervision is not under instruction.
i couldnt find anyone who knows how to fill it or there many oıf them saying different things
Then you probably haven't got any PICUS time, so you were either
DUAL or Co-Pilot but not both.

- If you were required flight crew (eg Multi Pilot aeroplane), but you
were not PIC, then time goes in Co-Pilot Column.

NB: It is not relevant whether you were Pilot Flying or Pilot Monitoring, as
PIC (including PICUS) or Co-Pilot depends only on who made the decisions.


In 9 LANDING section, should i log landing even i am not PF?

No

can i write related FAA logbook hours down in JAA logbook and add to total landings and hours?
What do you mean by "related"?
Yes (if you haven't already counted them)
but
it is good to use from beginnig in JAA loogbook
would be better

[parabellum]

half of my navajo copilot time to PICUS, nice. that solves it, now i
have 500 MPIC.


The Navajo is a single crew aircraft under 5700kgs so logging as PIUS? No can do normally, unless your regulating authority treat it as a double crew aircraft? Otherwise empty legs, non-revenue and you might get away with it, subject to twin ratings etc.

[SloppyJoe]

i don't think you can just change your hours after the fact

Of course you can if you made a mistake. It would not look suspicious if you were operating a multi crew aircraft and had previously logged every sector as P2 and changed some to P1/US. Add a note about the reason or better still, with something from your company stating that the corrections changing 588 hrs of P2 to P1/US between 09/06/2011 and 06/07/2012 are correct, or something to that effect.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Bejasus, here we go again! PICUS, the never ending confusion of whether wearing a white shirt makes you Captain or only if you are touching the controls too.

Dual logged in a two crew operation?
Log landings when you didn't!

Oh my God! You couldn't make this up!

Does no one read their manuals/rule books to see what they say?

[Level Attitude]

Dual logged in a two crew operation?
Log landings when you didn't!

Oh my God! You couldn't make this up!


Agreed - But even more concerning is the belief that one can Log the
same time twice and be both PIC and DUAL at the same time!

Does no one read their manuals/rule books to see what they say?
To be fair to "firdof" he does say he has (at least) read the instructions on "how to complete" in
the front of a JAA Log Book but that he doesn't understand it.

How to have reached this (presumed multi-crew) level of training without
any Training Organisation (or indeed Licensing Authority) picking up on
this lack of knowledge is rather worrying.

[Wageslave]

Well, a bit worrying that anyone thinks the definitive source for this is the preface of a logbook and as some of those definitions (ie PICUS) are hotly disputed on a National level it would behove all student/aspiring pilots to at least know where to look to find out what is applied in their part of the world.

Someone who has got through a PPL training course unaware of the meaning of Dual hasn't been paying attention, but from a Commercial trainee!!!

[worldoffe]

Hey Guys,

sorry that I reactivate this old thread but I would like to clarify a question of mine.

I have a question regarding the required hours for ATPL issue in EASA land.

According to FCL.510.A the following is required:

FCL.510.A ATPL(A) — Prerequisites, experience and crediting
(b) Experience. Applicants for an ATPL(A) shall have completed a minimum of 1500 hours of flight time in aeroplanes, including at least:
(1) 500 hours in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes;
(2) (i) 500 hours as PIC under supervision; or
(ii) 250 hours as PIC; or
(iii) 250 hours, including at least 70 hours as PIC, and the remaining as PIC under supervision;

I am wondering if all the hours under number (2) are required to be flown on a multi-pilot aircraft or if i.e. 180hours as PICUS on an MPA and 70hours as PIC, but the PIC hours on a SEP aircraft would satisfy with (2) (iii)

Thank you!

EDIT: As (1) and (2) look like 2 separate and independent points to me, I guess that 180hrs PICUS on a MPA and 70 hours PIC (flown on a SEP aircraft) should satisfy with (2) (iii) or am I wrong?

[avoka]

Hi guys
I have couple questions in terms of filling up EASA logbook.
There's not special requirement to have my own logboog in my country (my company provides me special logbook).
Some times ago I bought EASA logbook.I would like to keep up to date it on my own.
The first question is in terms of "Operation condition time"- 9 column (night time-what time do I have to write up to this column? particularly,whether NIGHT TIME or NIGHT TIME AS PF???, "block" or "airborne" time????
The second one :what does it mean IFR time for A-320fleet? whether "block time" or "airborne time"
The third one: What time do I have to write up to 5 column "multi pilot time"?
And one more. There's IMC column in the end of the logbook (months/years outcome) What time do I have to write up to this column?
Many thanks in advance
Safe flights

[Wageslave]

Of course you can if you made a mistake. It would not look suspicious if you were operating a multi crew aircraft and had previously logged every sector as P2 and changed some to P1/US. Add a note about the reason or better still, with something from your company stating that the corrections changing 588 hrs of P2 to P1/US between 09/06/2011 and 06/07/2012 are correct, or something to that effect.

So at the stroke of a pen and after the passage of months or years you state that the person who thought he was in charge of the aeroplane at the time wasn't, and the person who thought he was P2 was actually in command contrary to what was understood and recorded at the time?

I find it utterly beyond belief that in UK it is somehow deemed acceptable for FOs to log their handling sectors as P1u/s without the Captain even being aware that he isn't actually in command at the time, or that P1u/s only occurs on handling sectors. Heck, why not just write it all as P1u/s? It's a meaningless exercise anyway now the oh so valuable pre-captaincy training tool of real P1u/s was diluted into this farcical and dishonest paperwork fudge.

Given that UK is so dramatically out of line with not only the rest of Europe but also it's previous CAA ANO regs it wouldn't seem surprising to me if we saw some future air accident investigation focussing on morally and logically fraudulently obtained licence(s) due to this fudge.
Surely the CAA is in an impossibly exposed position in requiring 250hrs P1 time for issue of a licence - presumably on the grounds that it is minimum essential experience for licence issue, and then contradicts itself by allowing all but 70 of those 250 P1 hours to be parker pen time. The lawyers would have a field day, wouldn't they?

[Intrance]

I am wondering if all the hours under number (2) are required to be flown on a multi-pilot aircraft or if i.e. 180hours as PICUS on an MPA and 70hours as PIC, but the PIC hours on a SEP aircraft would satisfy with (2) (iii)

Thank you!

EDIT: As (1) and (2) look like 2 separate and independent points to me, I guess that 180hrs PICUS on a MPA and 70 hours PIC (flown on a SEP aircraft) should satisfy with (2) (iii) or am I wrong?
Yeah, PIC time can be on SEP or MEP. The remainder in PICUS should be in MPA. I had about 120 PIC on piston powered aircraft and 130 PICUS in multicrew ops when I went for my ATPL.