EXPAT fake with Jet Airways

[Rajesh8452]

Well I flew with an expat Captain recently who joined jet airways on the ATR. The amount of BS that came out of his mouth during the sectors made me think there is something about this joker so did some searching and found this thread from a few years ago.

It seems that this "captain" managed to go from almost 0 experience in 2008 to being a captain with Jet in 2010. That is a lot of work in two years.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/298039-what-would-you-do.html

Wonder if the DGCA will look into this or may it be that there will be far too many problems when an expat is found to be taking the Indians for a ride.

It is not furtunate that the links in the old thread are not loading.

[sunset_contrails_10]

It is more likely that you are the "fake" than the expat is. Give it your best shot, believe me, it has been tried to call out "fake" expat many many times.

[Akbar Al Sabah]

Rajesh, do your best.....expose all the fakers! Send them off to their sunsets. What you post here certainly touched a few raw nerves pretty fast!:ok:

[itsbrokenagain]

Before you jump the gun here do some research.. is the Pilot operating under a FAA license ? If so search the pilot database and check out the dates he/she got their licenses. You cant base your search on things a person says on a forum.

From how I got my fata it would actually be pretty hard to fake it, they were very very thorough with license validations , investigations and log book signoffs, they... the dgca also questioned me about my experience in my logbook.

[captjns]

Rajesh... your accusaions need to be backed up by undisputed substantiated proof rather than just acting on pure emotions. The FAA data base is quite accurate... bullet proof??? no... but pretty damn close to it. However be prepared and be a man by stepping up to the plate to pay for the consequences if your actions and accusations should they be false.

emb145gearslinger... IMO your diatrive is most unprofessional and clearly denotes your level of experience or lack thereof, your tolerance, and maturity... or again, lack thereof too.

Perhaps you should hang up the goggles so you will never have to listen to foreign accents over the airwaves:ok:. I don't think you would be missed by the aviation community.

[kwaiyai]

Why dont you simply report it Rajesh to your flight ops manager and then let them check into it. Surely the DGCA will check into it right? why would it
be a problem or cause problem to do that?

[DesiPilot]

EMB,

My grand father gave me a very good lesson. He said "if you don't like something either leave it or fix it." And I think this lesson works perfect for you.

I did leave USA as I refused to work for Regionals for pennies. You are here in India for a reason, and I am sure it is your job and not the love for India. I worked in India and now I am in Vietnam and I know why I am here.

Again, if you don't like your ears bleeding may be it is time to go back; I hear all the regionals are hiring and they will pay you $18,000 a year, which is as close to poverty line as one can get. I also hear that FedEx, SWA, Jet Blue and US Airways is also hiring. I am sure you would love to cut your misery short and go work for them; but then again, you need someone to recommend you for a job and with attitude like yours no one in correct state of mind would.

Good luck with spreading your cheeks, I am sure your parents will be very proud and will show that edition to everyone they know; in the name of liberty and freedom.

Rajesh,

How do you know that that Joker faked his hours? From 2008-2011 it is possible to get your command. In IndiGo, I saw a lot of young pilots get their command in A320 in same amount of time. So, your theory based on time fails. It all depends on airlines' requirements, and they keep lowering their minimums to meet their requirements.

I am sure both Jet and DGCA had done enough digging around to let him fly in India. Unless you can come up with some solid proof I'd say you are just pissing in the wind and don't ask me what happens when you piss in the wind.

[kwaiyai]

Desipilot totally agree with your second point.
If Rajesh has proof he can do something with it otherwise
better stop blowing hot air.

[masalama]

Rajesh,

Seems like you might have something in this after all. I suggest you talk to your flight safety team , you have a line pilot/flight safety representative for each of the fleet. Talk to them about your concerns . Worst case, they check it out and you get egg on your face , but you can sleep easy .It's a tough call but it could be his knowledge , behavior , conduct,attitude gave you the red signal about his history.

There's nothing worse than sitting on your hands when you know something is amiss. I don't care if a faker is brown, white, yellow, black ...indian , pakistani, american or whatever...a faker needs to be caught, period.

All the best, masalama.

[pilotbaba]

@captjns

Do you work for jet airways........

@rajesh

If you are 100% sure this guy is a faker, then don't stop, we need to weed out all the fakers. Just make sure that you don't harm an innocent guy......

[AmateurAviatorAlways]

all these fake entities should be wiped out from the system... it is because of them that the whole community suffers...time for some needful action:E:E

[sunset_contrails_10]

Amazing!!! a fake piloy flying in India for more that two thousand hours can pass line check after line check as well as IR/LR year after year and you continue to pass him and he is not qualified? I am worried about the level of skill of the typical indian pilot if untrained guys are skilled enough to hold command.

[masalama]

Sunset contrails wrote:Amazing!!! a fake piloy flying in India for more that two thousand hours can pass line check after line check as well as IR/LR year after year and you continue to pass him and he is not qualified? I am worried about the level of skill of the typical indian pilot if untrained guys are skilled enough to hold command.

Yes , Sunset , maybe you're right, we need to ground all expats to check their antecedents .We might have been a little too lenient on their IR/LR's , and start checking on their skills to hold command .....ok sarcastic comment over.

cmon buddy , don't throw your toys around , fake pilots, irrespective of their nationality need to dealt with strongly, it's just the way things are now. It seems to be the "in" thing now, pilots using shortcuts to get the airline job. Airlines, DGCA , trainers need to be on the lookout for these fakes , whether they are Indian, pakistani, australian , american ...u get the picture, right???:ok:

masalama.

[gerago]

Sometime ago on a thread about KAL, I posted some info about KAL recruitment team not exercising due care in recruiting a number of fakers. A few ppruners tried shouting me down with threats , innuendos and abuse. Looks like some of them have resurfaced on this thread! Some of those fakers had supposedly " authentic " credentials from some EU operators!

[johnnyringo42]

No Place in the World fakes and sells Licenses more than India. The FAA does not fake anything but an individual may do so therefore do not drag the FAA into these matters. I am proud to have an FAA certificate which I know cannot be bought from anyone inside the FAA. I have met Indian Pilots who have told me stories of the corruption within their DGCA. The USA and other countries should be wary of fake Pilots flying planes from India into their Airspace each day.

[captjns]

Gotta tell ya Jonnyringo… I’ve heard some pretty interesting tales, not only from your Island of Jamaica, Trinidad, Tobago, some South and Latin American Countries about the issuances of airman certificates under suspicious means. Further Indonesia is no stranger to bribes either. The reason you don’t hear about Indonesia so much as they’re black listed from the west with the exception of Amsterdam.

Anyway Johnny… let’s take an individual with an newly issued FAA ATP certificate. Let’s assume that the individual logged a bunch of P-51 time in order to reach that magical 1,500 hour mark so they can obtain their ATP certificate. Let’s further assume that same individual was able to secure a job with a major carrier under those false pretenses. Whilst on the surface they have a valid ATP certificate, but it is one that was earned under legitimate means? If the FAA were to find out that the time in that individual’s logbook was false… do you think the FAA would initiate certificate action against that person? Thus would you agree that that person with a valid FAA certificate issued under false pretenses should be labeled a “Faker”? Well it’s a problem that goes on all over the world with no system for checks and balances in place to ensure the legitimacy of flight times in one’s logbook.


In recent days there’s been an lad from Australia, found to have questionable credentials, and has fled India to avoid criminal prosecution. Is he any better than an Indian, Chinese, American or any other despot risking the lives of their passengers whilst flying under fraudulent pretenses?

Oh and there was a group of Chinese pilots who falsified their times to maintain acquire and maintain their certificates too.


Would you agree that it a bit naïve, biased, prejudicial and borderline racism for one to think that India is solely the centre of fake airmen certificates?

At the end of the day, IMHO, I think that fraudulent logbook entries are a more serious problem than bribing one’s local DGCA.

[itsbrokenagain]

captjns, I am all for debate, but your logic isnt logical in your argument "Let’s assume that the individual logged a bunch of P-51 time in order to reach that magical 1,500 hour mark so they can obtain their ATP certificate."

How can that make the ATP of this imaginary pilot fake or not valid... maybe I am missing something (he/she might be a rich kid whos dad bought them a restored p51 to get th 1500hrs for all you know)

[captjns]

Yeah Isbrokenagain.. you may be missing something.

There ain’’t nobody that woud rent out a Mustang for joy boring holes in the sky. The term P-51 time is what we in the US call Parker Pen time…. In other words fictitious log book time.

[itsbrokenagain]

Shows my ignorance, 40+ years on the planet and US citizen and never heard it called p-51 time. Learn something new every day! Actually never met anyone who has done this ...

[Olive61]

Fakers of all nationalities proliferate in this industry. Where most of them turn up is in those jurisdictions where they believe they have the best chance of success and the least chance of genuine scrutiny.

Some years ago I applied for a contract through a NZ based agency, and frankly they didn't give a damn whether what I presented them was for real or not - their only interest was to fill the 'slot' and pull their commission. About 3 or 4 pilots were exposed during that contract for fraudulent misrepresentation of either experience or qualifications. It's a fact of life - challenge them through your CAA or company and name them ..... sooner or later they will be exposed.

[StinkyMonkey]

Faker or not, at this point he has flown as an ATR captain for over three years, so he is getting pretty experienced, I would say.

[break_break]

I absolutely echo the 2 very important points being raised here.

1. Anyone who's a faker, should be exposed and continued to be tracked down and banned for life. The consequences could have been dire. Let's not kid ourselves here, the airline/recruitment agency is fully responsible for verifying the credentials. As much as I read with great interest of some posters that kept highlighting KAL, couple of mates of mine who joined in recent times, told us that the verification process was indeed painful to start of with. KAL not called our sandpit's office, but they relentlessly rang Canada transport and aussie CASA to confirm the licenses' details prior to clearing them for further training.

2. How on earth did the training/checking processes not weed out a low time aviation enthusiasts? Clearly something is missing here. It's not just about expat/foreigners that should be singled out. There must be a way that these senior and experienced trainers/checkers can sort this fakers out pretty easily considering his lack of actual line experience. Failing which, if he's that much of god's gift to aviation, then the above first due process should be able to "take care" of him.

[captjns]

A CV is nothing more than an 8 ½ by 11 piece of paper with alpha numeric symbols printed on it. One can buy a plethora of simulator time to prepare for a simulator evaluation. Also one can buy books on or surf the internet for technical details of an aircraft they wish to fly. The majority of the applicants are weeded out with initial interviews, then simulator evaluations, and eventually during training before proceeding to the aircraft. Then it’s up to the check airman to weed out the weak links. Those involved with the training and checking process are the last line of defense in the process to ensure that those not up to the task are released from training. A major problem is that many those who are not up to the taks are passed along with the hopes they will improve before they take their next check ride. Review the Colgan crash in Buffalo almost two years back. The training and checking process failed, not only the innocent passengers, but the captain too. Based on his training records, he should have never been behind the controls of a transport category aircraft.

The FAA has a very good track record of valid airmen certificates on their computer system detailing dates of medicals, issuances of airman certificates, instructor ratings, along with check airman letters.

With the enactment of the PRIA “Pilot Record Improvement Act” records from previous employers and violations if any from FAA records. http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/ (http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/pria/)

One must bear in mind that information entered in the data base is subject to the honesty of the employer. That said there are airlines that may not be forthright to avoid confrontations and lawsuits from former employees. That said the information is only as good as the information the company desires to impart.

Every contracting agency has the tools available to conduct thorough checks of the applicants before recommending them to an airline they represent. Yes it costs money. But at the end of the day it can save all concerned parties a lot of embarrassment and provide credibility to the contract agencies.

Bear in mind that the above applies to the carriers too. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, and passengers to ensure they are employing legitimate qualified crews.

Foreign carriers I’ve worked for have conducted a thorough search with the FAA and previous employees too… without complications. I have to say, and no I’ve not been drinking, the FAA was very efficient with providing requested information to contracting air carriers and their DGCAs.

[captjns]

Yes, I am familiar with FAR § 61.153 Eligibility requirements: General. (c) Be of good moral character

Scooby… without written consent, by a US certified pilot, in a specific format promulgated by the FAA, nobody will be able to obtain records on any pilot in the US other than their address, provided it is not blocked by the airman at their request. You can obtain information about an airman’s certificates and endorsement thereon If they did not place a requested block.

Remember as I indicated in my previous post the provisions contained in the Pilot Record Improvement Act are only as good as employers, both current and former are willing to participate in the program.

However there is FAR § 61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

(a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;
(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

The FAA will take no certificate action against an airman unless an employer, either current or former is willing to provide valid information. Foreign carriers in possession of ANY information of any known malfeasance should inform their DGCA which in turn will inform the FAA . Then the FAA may take action if deemed appropriate.

Logging fraudulent flight time as a private pilot if pretty hard to prove, not to mention time consuming. However such fraud is easier to prove when a pilot lists flying jobs along with logged hours when contracting agencies and airlines as well as foreign DGCAs perform their due diligence in conducting a thorough background check on prospective employees.

[scooby79]

What airlines were they and how do you know?

[TopTup]

Is there not a dusty road you kids could find with some tar and feathers?

If this guy is proven to have forged or faked credentials then I most certainly expect and hope he is exposed to the full extent of the law. But to try a person via an anonymous "rumour" network shows more immaturity and desperation than it does to improve the industry.

Hell, I could name handfuls of pilots during my tenure and AI who had fake log books: from pilots (Capts and FO's) filling in random figures in their log books (best guessed hours after a flight) to TRE/I's stamping any old log book thrown infornt of them, to FO's logging 7-80% of their flight time as P1 U/S when they most certainly did not fly as such: just so they can beat their "batchmates" in getting an ATP/ATPL and hence sooner Command. And AI's checks as to these hours? Zero. Nothing. A stupidly incompetent and lazy women who would sign and stamp a dogs back side if it were put in front of her. All quite contrary to AI's SOP's and DGCA laws of course....

(And yes, I did report such matters).

So, who's going to throw the first stone?

You all scream from the rafters and unashamedly name and finger point individuals yet too many are so damn small minded and immature to bother about the source of the fault.

Which agency did this individual come from (yes, I know the answer). What of it's background checks on this individual prior to being sent on a contract? Does this agency not have a STINKING reputation for such things? yet why do these airlines still use them??

What of the airline's background checks? Did it do any? Why? Why not?

Why was this person's credentials not exposed in background checks, let alone sim evaluations??

And of course, most prolific is: WHO PROFITED FROM THE PLACEMENT(S)?

The answers are obvious "IF" you care to look, and all been posted by me countless times before. Then again, you may have to tell the Emperor (or Maharaja) he has no clothes.

Look at the SYSTEM that allowed this to happen (if true at all) instead of the individual at the end of the slippery rope of corruption and shear incompetence.