Striking ATCOs: Governments Must Act!

[BrATCO]

Striking ATCOs: Governments Must Act! (http://www.canso.org/cms/showpage.aspx?id=3138)

Worth reading...

[aldegar]

It’s time to create a training environment where, unlike today, the supply of qualified air traffic controllers is greater than the demand. This approach has already been successfully achieved in the airline pilot community, setting the precedents for air traffic control.


Our minister said in an interview that, as it happens with pilots in Spain, he would like to have 3.000 unemployed ATCOs...

(in spanish) Blanco se jacta de que formará a 3.000 nuevos controladores "para tenerlos en el paro" - elConfidencial.com (http://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/blanco-sugiere-formara-controladores-vayan-20101215-72606.html)

[Vercingetorix]

Our minister said in an interview that, as it happens with pilots in Spain, he would like to have 3.000 unemployed ATCOs...

Something that has often been wished for by various CAA honchos. In fact, one even said that "he wished he could hire and fire ATCOs like beach resorts do with deck chair assistants". i.e, utilise on an as needed basis like those employed on a factory assembly line

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your perspective, this is not possible with ATCOs due to the lead in time for validation, competency, safety, etc.


Your minister is living in LaLa land.

:ok:

[PeltonLevel]

And I thought that AENA had a monopoly in management stupidity!

When ANSPs are willing to invest in training a large excess of controllers then this approach might be an option but as the costs will be huge and any returns well into the future, I don't see it as an option. (Would the CAA allow NATS to make this sort of expenditure in the next control period?)

To get into the same position as airlines are with pilots, the ANS industry would have to market the job as glamorous so as to persuade candidate trainees to fund their own training. Somehow I think that might be a bit of a challenge.:ugh:

[saintex2002]

Against the global voice, I see no real fight back from ATCEUC nor ETF and do not expect real one from now till the next October steering committee... nor till November in Venice...
When shall all European atcos finally understand that it becomes definitly urgent to join our forces to create our own European atcos company ?
No other answer to that war we are facing...
Just think about it... Deadline December 2012...

[Tarq57]

You're probably right, saintex. A fair bit of unity is called for.

On that blog, the author writes about training up a large pool of ATCO's. As with any specialist vocation, such training, if done properly, takes a large investment of money and time.

The obvious answer, which is written about in another CANSO blog, is to not do it properly. De-skill the profession. It's already happening. More automation and procedures-based standard operating practices, less skills-based practices.

Is anyone else seeing this? Is anyone else seeing that the airlines - who probably don't know any better - seem OK with this?

To be fair, they probably are ignorant of the true story.

[ron83]

It's maybe time for IFATCA to challenge the need for CANSO ? Mr.Graham publicly calls for atco unemployment making us slaves and working for peanuts.:ugh: I think he just dreamt a dream.

[kontrolor]

Graham is typical birocrat, who thinks there are easy solutions to complex problems. Let's get rid of CANSO instead. What good has this organisaton brought to the aviation anyway?

[ILSguider]

Bet Mr G.L wouldn't mouth off so much if he was still a working ATCO.......remember where you start from!!!!:*

[Plazbot]

Problem is that unlike flying planes, you just can't keep throwing money into the pot to become an ATC. I have never heard of anyone failing a PPL and being told not to come back.

[blissbak]

you just can't keep throwing money into the pot to become an ATCSomewhere you can, even if it's not the normal way to join the job yet, but we are moving to this direction day by day, in the next future controllers will have to pay for working as well.

[10W]

CANSO ... seems like some old boys club where they can all go on junkets to conferences in exotic locations and pat each other on the back at someone else's expense. I can't think of one single thing they have done to improve the ATC profession or service. Can anyone else ?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

definition is exact.:D
Term might be ,CANSO ,IFATCA....
:E

[Tarq57]

10W, I don't think CANSO was formed with the idea in mind of improving the profession, somehow.

[2 sheds]

The finance and effort that all the member ANSPs are contributing to CANSO could be better spent on improving their own companies. Would not all their activity be more usefully directed through ICAO - plus Eurocontrol and other regional organisations, particularly as the CANSO membership only covers a few disparate parts of the world? Cannot help but agree with 10W.

Sorry, GL - sounds like a bit of a - very prejudiced - rant, particularly with the bold and exclamation marks!

2 s

[saintex2002]

" The finance and effort that all the member ANSPs are contributing to CANSO could be better spent on improving their own companies. "

.... No, no and no, the finance and effort that all atco is contributing could be better spent on improving their new own European atcos company...
Again, just think about it...

[ZOOKER]

Is this CANSO chappie an ex-ATCO?
Out of interest, where, and for how long?
The CANSO website is fascinating, loads of dinners, conferences and corporate events. But I thought most ANSPs are hard up.
Why do we need CANSO when we already have have ICAO, IFATCA, EASA, GATCO, Eurocontrol etc?
Didn't The Red Barron address a CANSO conference once? I'm sure I remember reading it in his 'blog'. :E

[radarman]

Zooker,
Yes, he did. Wrote very enthusiastically about it in his blog. It was somewhere exotic half way round the world. Who paid for his tickets, hotel and grub? Bet it didn't come out of his own pocket. The fact that Barron and CANSO were linked should give an idea of what a waste of time and money this international junket is.

[Mr_Grubby]

Mr Lake was on No 28 Cadet Course, starting June 4th 1973. CATC, Bournemouth.

[Lon More]

Mr Lake was on No 28 Cadet Course, starting June 4th 1973. CATC, Bournemouth
Still U/T then. Let me speak to his coach.

Don't expect the Governments to do anything. They created the situation themselves

[Brian 48nav]

Met GL for the first time in 26 years at a party in July.

'For interest', after 28 graduated he was an ASC ( wings ) at LATCC, resigned and went to JJ. After CAA lost Hurn contract in '79 to IAL,he moved there as a Twr/APP ATCO until IAL lost the contract in '86 ( IIRC ).

Been non-operational since.

[ATC Watcher]

Don't be too hard on GL. he is only DG CANSO on paper , he writes and says what his masters tell him to , and there are some crazy hardliners in there believe me .But thre are aslo some good guys. If the "hardline CANSO " wins over, they will be find themselves side tracked and CANSO might implose.
GL is not a bad guy to have a drink with, quite the opposite. Some of his masters definitively are.

There is a curernt strong debate among IFATCA whether to continue or not working with them on some issues , like Safety/Just culture implementation or global standards for data link for instance, because of this last stance (almost a month old BTW) .

Supporting AENA , and recently the DFS during their industrial disputes does not bother me per se , it is their members after all, but going beyond the support to provoke Controllers and turn public opinion aginst controllers as they have done in Spain is not on, and will bite back.

If they continue on that path ,a reality check will fall at some point ,and they will be remembered that without staff they are nothing, just headless chickens. We have the operational knowledge, not them, and most importantly : we bring the money in , not them.

[2 sheds]

Perhaps GL would like to turn his attention to some of the problems raised in the "Airfield departure times" thread relating to Spanish ATC, specifically as illustrated by one "Akhorahil" - see page 3.

2 s

[10W]

Sounds like a great excuse for a CANSO gig. Only issue would be the lication. Fiji, Tahiti, or somewhere else exotic ? :)

[ATC Watcher]

atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination (http://www.atceuc.org/)
click on the latest " communique " 31.08.2011.

Starts to get interesting....

[Crazy Voyager]

The link has http twice...

Intresting read, I shall stay tuned.

[saintex2002]

Interesting... but desperately not enough to stop the war.... :=

[BrATCO]

It seems he's made some friends lately...

His idea of removing controllers' rights to defend themselves is not a one-shot :

http://www.google.fr/url?q=http://www.canso.org/cms/streambin.aspx%3Frequestid%3D98939146-6CD2-4445-A9C2-D86BD34D58A0&sa=U&ei=a8FiToGaF-Lf4QTU8s2ICg&ved=0CBQQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNERwbthOYD7jbkY7P_H7lOCbzuEHA

Page 6 :
o Laws that ensure consistent levels of service in airspace across Europe at all times
- Industrial Action should not be permitted to compromise monopoly ANSP service
Isn't this against European work rules ?

First amongst these tools is legislative support for ensuring that our services are not held to ransom by wildcat industrial actions.
I like the "wildcat" ! It shows the respect he gives us...


Come what may.

Will we all be Spanish in a close future ?

[belk78]

First they came for the...

[ron83]

o Laws that ensure consistent levels of service in airspace across Europe at all times
- Industrial Action should not be permitted to compromise monopoly ANSP service

But at the end of a day,does he think he's smartest guy on planet. No industrial action,ok. How about everyone is off sick? Or will they ban this too?

[saintex2002]

No Ron83, he's not smartest guy on planet...
If we create our own European atcos company, there will be no more industrial action... no need to be off sick... because we gonna rule the entire stuff... and guess who will be the smartest... :D:D

[ATC Watcher]

SAINTEX : If we create our own European atcos company, there will be no more industrial action...

That is an interesring " vue de l' esprit " and certainly wishful thinking that beacause it will be your own company evrything will be such a paradise that there will be no need to do instrial actions anymore ...
:\:eek::rolleyes::=:sad::8:ok::):(:confused:

[BrATCO]

That's right, Watcher.

Whoever is in charge, there will always be a management. Because we need coordination. They can't get rid of us, we can't do without a management.
The problem is that managers tend to slide towards the dark side of the force...
They sometimes need to be reminded what can be done and what can not. Hence the need for the possibility of industrial action (or threat of), when they can't manage negotiations. This is (kind of) a safety measure.
Only alternative would be to provide a downgraded service. Not because of industrial action : because of industrial misconception.

GL's argumentation seems to be based on the idea that ATC is "only" a service, that ATC must become and remain servile in front of our big masters : Aircraft Operators.
I wonder what they "produce" ? besides burnt fuel...

Whatever they "produce", we're here to help them do their job. And stop them if needed.
As parents would stop a child crossing a road in front of a car. Generally ends up in cries and tears, but there's a future...

Regulator/operator seperation was/is a nonsense.
Removing the regulation (police) power from ANSPs makes the childs (AOs) be the masters.
This will bite back someday.

World economic present situation springs to my mind, re lack of regulation and bite back...

[saintex2002]

ATC watcher,
Our own European atcos company will have no need to do industrial action... like industrial action are done nowdays against our national ANSPs... this company is a total new concept for all of us ATC professionals... question of creating this company able to sell our ATC services to ANSPs/states/FABs/EU even more... leaving to them the responsability to maintain the necessary technical and administrative environment for our mission... the only actions which we would have to lead would be the ones to make sure of the smooth running of the material... may be not yet a '' paradise'', but a real big change speaking about European ATM... speaking about atco job...
A bit short but deliberate, try to think of it without keeping the mentality of former days... and we gonna speak again... if you want...

[ron83]

Saintex2002,

Do you mean all atco's to resign from theirs ANSPs and join some "European ATCO recruiting bla,bla,bla"? And than this company will let out atco's back to ansps for appropriate pay?:}:E which I think will become twice it is now. Smart idea:ok:

[saintex2002]

Ron83,
Not compulsory to resign... but compulsory to be part of this "European ATCO recruiting bla,bla,bla" of course... and as soon as the whole European atco collective is completed in it... time to begin to speak... with new real ways of thinking... and Ron83, you understood one of them... ;)

[ZOOKER]

Just read in the 'CANSO ATM Report & Directory 2011', that, "For CANSO, 2011 was a year of transition and growth". "A highly successful year for CANSO".
The other good news is that "2011 is a year of delivery", in which "CANSO will take an increasingly active role in coordinating the delivery of products and deliverables that will benefit the entire system".
Sounds like bullsh1t to me.
It's now September. Tick-tock, tick-tock....

[kontrolor]

Goverments must act! Get rid of CANSO!

[BrATCO]

I just had to come back to GL's speech in ATC Global Conference 2011...


He says he was a controller.
What kind of controller could say : "Come what may." when discussing job ?

[kontrolor]

big fat ass ex atco working in organisation which encourages creativity in sense, that it looks like a lot is being developed, but in reality it is mainly pile of ****. (eurocontrol anybody?)...

that kind of atco.

[safetymike]

... but wait, let's think about what GL is saying...

lots more ATCOs - that's what we've been saying too!:ok:

Now in order to do that the ANSPs will have to offer better conditions etc in order to encourage people in...

hang on...

that's what ATCOs are pursuing, and not getting, so threatening industrial action!

So by his own logic (and that of his masters) CNASO should be supporting claims for better pay and consitions.:D

(It's a happy little world I live in)

[atc_ring]

...obviously Mr Graham Lake is happily oblivious of what exactly ATC is all about and what it means to be an ATCO. And all this -unfortunately- coming from a person who should have known better....:bored::bored::bored:

[BrATCO]

Safetymike,
Controllers ask for more working colleagues, in order to provide safety. Because we (the ones with the coal face) know we MUST provide safety.

CANSO's idea is to train more controllers, without hiring them. In order to make supply bigger than demand, thus build pressure on working controllers to lower their pays.

Not exactly the same goal.

The tactical scheme seems to be the same everytime :
-1) Propose overtime against increased incomes.
-2) Stop new recruitments, as overtime makes them useless.
-3) When traffic grows, raise overtime.
-4) Wait for controllers to be worried when overtime/work conditions become unsafe.
-5) Launch a press campain against controllers. "Overpaid" and "irresponsible" are part of the appropriate wording.
-6) As Lake said, "Come what may"...

I wonder why IFATCA still works with CANSO ?
And why they seem to agree on goals ?
CANSO/IFATCA :THE NEXT GENERATION AVIATION PROFESSIONAL (http://www.google.fr/url?q=http://www.canso.org/cms/streambin.aspx%3Frequestid%3DE7409EF8-FA6D-4C9D-BF3B-8AC82E4A707E&sa=U&ei=k6VvTsypII_E4gT3l8G0CQ&ved=0CBAQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEtixnax0Lca8i-90JlP2WIXP0U9A)

Remove the "redundant/fallible" human part of aviation professionals, replace them by very clever and servile computers, disregard the dangerous complacency and lack of technical skills this will induce in too short a term...
I guess mathematicians have proven that the "very unlikely" resulting accidents will cost less than the price of a few qualified professionals... :yuk:

[Dan Dare]

Orchestrated or not, ANSPs all seem to be increasing contractural hours to compensate for understaffing and providing no contingency.

Individuals seem to ignore their accumulated fatigue when enough money is presented to them to do overtime and when they do it often enough ANSPs could surely be forgiven for thinking that our contracts do not work us hard enough. Perhaps we should look at the bigger picture and think carefully about whether the extra pennies for today's voluntary overtime justify the inevitably enforced extra hours later in our careers.