Chinese Pilot refused to give way to Qatar Aw. Emergency

[JanetFlight]

Well ... its what this peculiar lil' story here tells us »»»

Air Disaster Narrowly Averted in China: Report | The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/asia/air-disaster-narrowly-averted-in-china-report/461607)

[Daysleeper]

China’s civil aviation authority said in a statement ...those responsible would be “severely punished.”

That's a just culture at work right there...:ugh:

[el sol]

Qatar Airways declares emergency on China flight
by ASC Staff on Aug 25, 2011

Qatar Airways declared emergency on a flight to Shanghai’s Pudong Airport this month, due to fuel levels on its Boeing 777-300 being low, it has been reported.

The national carrier was performing flight QR-888 from Doha on 13th August 2011 when the incident occurred, according to Aviation Herald.

Due to weather conditions, the aircraft needed to enter a holding around 14:40L and it was subsequently diverted to Shanghai’s Hongqiao Airport after fuel levels become low.

However, a Juneyao Airlines flight was approaching the airport at the same time and crew therefore received an Air Traffic Control instruction to accommodate the Qatar Airways emergency by aborting their approach.

The instructions were apparent refused and Juneyao Airlines continued their approach for a safe landing, forcing Qatar Airways to delay its own landing.

Aviation Herald reports that the Middle Eastern airline was then able to land and later continued to Pudong, reaching with a total delay of nine hours.

China's Civil Aviation Authority (CAAC) has launched an investigation and pledged: "Verified violations will be severely dealt with according to law."

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I guess we don't know the true facts. Does "aborting their approach" mean at some point on final approach, or further out? How come the Qatar flight just suddenly appeared on the scene? If it was behind the other flight I don't understand what the fuss was about. There should have been advance warning to ATC of an aircraft with severe fuel shortage so that the approach sequence could have been arranged accordingly.

[mad_jock]

I wonder how much fuel the Juneyao Airlines had in the tanks when it landed.

I suspect it will have less airborne time than the Qatar aircraft.

[jfkjohan]

I Agree with HEATHROW DIRECTOR,

I'm pretty sure the airplane wouldn't have appeared from out of nowhere.

Have a feeling that there is a tad bit more to this than meets the ear.

Regardless, i'm sure the 45mins FR would have kicked in anyway, right? If need be? :)

Interesting.

[Count von Altibar]

My mate operates for a Chinese carrier and it sounds plausible to me given the stories I've heard! I guess we don't have all the facts though.

[st7860]

"The pilot of the Qatar plane said it had just five minutes’ worth of fuel left after it was diverted from Shanghai, the Global Times newspaper reported, adding that a disastrous accident was only narrowly averted.

"

[myradios]

Incident: Qatar B773 and Juneyao A320 near Shanghai on Aug 13th 2011, fuel emergency or not

By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Aug 24th 2011 20:19Z, last updated Wednesday, Aug 24th 2011 20:19Z
A Qatar Airways Boeing 777-300, registration A7-BAC performing flight QR-888 from Doha (Qatar) to Shanghai (China), needed to enter a holding around 14:40L (06:40Z) while on approach to Shanghai's Pudong Airport due to weather. The crew subsequently decided to divert to Shanghai's Hongqiao Airport at 15:10L and declared emergency due to being low on fuel.

A Juneyao Airlines Airbus A320-200, flight HO-1112 from Shenzhen to Shanghai Hongquiao (China), was on approach to Hongqiao Airport, when Air Traffic Control instructed the crew to abort the approach in order to accomodate the emergency of QR-888. The crew, without requesting priority or declaring emergency, refused the instructions and continued their approach for a safe landing forcing ATC to delay the Boeing 777-300.

Flight QR-888 landed safely on Shanghai's Hongqiao Airport at 15:37L following the Airbus. The aircraft later continued to Pudong reaching their destination with a delay of 9 hours.

China's Civil Aviation Authority (CAAC) reported on Aug 24th that QR-888 declared emergency due to fuel shortage while waiting for approach to Pudong and diverted to Hongqiao. Air Traffic Control issued instructions to Juneyao's flight 1112 to give way to the Qatar Boeing, the crew however did not comply with the instructions forcing the controllers to re-arrange the landing sequence. The CAAC opened an investigation and pledged: "Verified violations will be severely dealt with according to law."

A briefing circling in China's aviation industry suggests that the Qatar Boeing 777 landed with 5 tons of fuel remaining, the Juneyao Airbus A320 with 2.9 tons of fuel remaining.

Metars Pudong:
ZSPD 130900Z 24008G13MPS 210V270 9999 -TSRA SQ SCT030CB 29/23 Q1005 BECMG FM0910 33007G12MPS +TSRA SQ
ZSPD 130830Z VRB01MPS 9999 TS FEW030CB 29/22 Q1002 BECMG TL0930 20005MPS TSRA
ZSPD 130800Z 32008G13MPS 9999 TS SCT016 SCT030CB 27/21 Q1003 BECMG TL0915 22005MPS -SHRA
ZSPD 130730Z VRB03MPS 9999 -TSRA SCT016 SCT030CB 29/23 Q1003 BECMG TL0900 22005MPS NSW
ZSPD 130700Z 14006MPS 9999 TS SCT030 SCT030CB 32/25 Q1003 BECMG TL0830 NSW
ZSPD 130630Z 15005MPS 120V180 8000 SCT026 FEW026TCU 33/25 Q1003 WS RWY17R NOSIG
ZSPD 130600Z 14007MPS 8000 SCT026 FEW026TCU 33/25 Q1003 NOSIG
ZSPD 130530Z 17005MPS 8000 SCT026 FEW026TCU 32/26 Q1003 NOSIG
ZSPD 130500Z 17007MPS 7000 SCT026 FEW026TCU 32/26 Q1003 NOSIG
ZSPD 130430Z 16006MPS 7000 SCT026 32/26 Q1003 NOSIG
ZSPD 130400Z 19004MPS 150V270 7000 SCT023 33/25 Q1004 NOSIG
ZSPD 130330Z 21003MPS 150V290 7000 SCT023 FEW023TCU 33/24 Q1004 NOSIG

Metars Hongqiao:
ZSSS 130900Z VRB01MPS CAVOK 25/24 Q1005 RETSRA NOSIG
ZSSS 130830Z 21007MPS 160V240 1600 R18L/0800VP2000D R18R/1000VP2000D +TSRA BKN026CB 25/23 Q1004 BECMG TL0840 TSRA
ZSSS 130800Z 12007MPS 9999 -TSRA SCT030CB 29/21 Q1002 BECMG TL0840 TSRA
ZSSS 130730Z 18007MPS 8000 SCT030 32/24 Q1002 NOSIG
ZSSS 130700Z 22005MPS 9999 FEW030TCU 33/24 Q1002 NOSIG
ZSSS 130630Z 24004MPS 190V280 9999 FEW030TCU SCT030 34/22 Q1002 NOSIG
ZSSS 130600Z 23005MPS 200V260 9999 SCT030 34/23 Q1002 NOSIG
ZSSS 130530Z 22003MPS 170V250 9999 SCT030 34/24 Q1002 NOSIG
ZSSS 130500Z 23003MPS 190V280 9999 BKN028 34/25 Q1003 NOSIG
ZSSS 130430Z 24002MPS 200V280 9999 BKN028 33/24 Q1003 NOSIG
ZSSS 130400Z 25003MPS 220V290 9999 BKN026 33/24 Q1003 NOSIG

[patowalker]

The pilot of the Qatar plane said it had just five minutes’ worth of fuel left

A briefing circling in China's aviation industry suggests that the Qatar Boeing 777 landed with 5 tons of fuel remaining,

Minutes, tons, whatever. It was five though.

[break_break]

I seriously hope that the discussion will not go along the line of whether or not Qatari crew should have declared a fuel emergency based on their perceived delay or endurance.

The main point here being, when you hear an emergency declared, relayed by tower/app controller to yield your slot, I think it's utterly disgraceful that this was not taken more seriously by the said Chinese aircraft driver (they don't even deserve to be addressed as crew, let alone pilots.)

There's only an exception in this case, that the Juneyao flight is in distress itself.

[ChrisVJ]

The ancouver Sun, accurate as ever, is running the story headed by a picture of an F18. Now that's an interesting airline to fly with.

[Jazz Hands]

I wonder how much of the account is straight from official sources and how much is just reporting unchecked reports. Bet the truth of this is way off what the interwebthing is saying.

[lomapaseo]

When I read headline grabbing stories like this I tend to read into it alternate explanations that play the even way down.

It's only after I'm proved wrong that I get excited :)

[Wizofoz]

Minutes, tons, whatever. It was five though.

Well, five tonnes is about 5 minutes (MAYBE 10) above Final Reserve in a Heavy 777-300, so that might be what was being alluded too.

[SMT Member]

Had a bit of trawl through the various articles posted in the innerweb about this alleged incident, trying to find the source. Didn't succeede in that, but did notice that all of the articles seem to be based on rumours spawned on enthusiasts internet forums.

As the story is picked up by other media, something very interesting happens that turns rumours into facts. One article quotes as follows: "A netizen going by the name "Boeing" who claimed to have heard the recording ...". In subsequent articles, who are clearly doing little more than a cut and paste job, the same information is presented as facts, and without naming the source. In essence it comes "recordings clearly shows".

So what we have here seems to be a story spawned on an internet forum for enthusiasts, picked up by another site that's monitored by "the media" and eventually published.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, only that the sources of information so far are of unknown, and questionable, quality. And that we're essentially sat on an internet forum, discussing rumours that seem to have its origins on another one.

Still, better than watching TV I suppose.

[Baumy]

I wonder how much fuel the Juneyao Airlines had in the tanks when it landed.

I suspect it will have less airborne time than the Qatar aircraft.

mad_jock,
If the Juneyao Airlines aircraft had less airborne time than the Qatar aircraft, wouldn't it have declared a fuel emergency too? There's no statement about the Juneyao aircraft being in any emergency whatsoever. :ugh:

[ElitePilot]

Well if the fuel figures from myradios are true 2.9T in a 320 is significantly more than the Qatar final reserve +5mins.
1.2T ish = 30 min final reserve leaving 1.7T holding and alternate fuel.

I wonder if the Juneyao crew knew the Qatar had declared an emergency and that was why they had been asked to break off their approach? Its easy to judge without all the facts...
Sure if they were in the loop about that its unforgivable with that much left i the tanks.

[goneferrying]

It's worth considering the possibility that a language barrier was part (if not most) of the problem. I regularly operate through PVG and SHA, and English is only used in comms with LESS THAN HALF of the aircraft on frequency.

The Qatari flight would have been using English and ATC would have been responding in English. The Juneyao crew would have been using Mandarin with ATC responding in Mandarin.

The loss of situational awareness that this causes is unnerving, even while ops are normal. We are forced to rely heavily on TCAS as primary means for situational awareness in terminal airspace. Awareness of comms from/to most other aircraft in the vicinity is lost.

In a fuel (or other) emergency, the possibility of a "lost in translation" causing at least confusion and at worst fatalities is a very real threat.

...but all Chinese pilots speak English to level 6, right ICAO? :yuk: Grrr...

[Double A]

According to the Chinese civil aviation regulator, the Chinese plane was found to have sufficient fuel to keep it in the air for another hour while the Qatari pilot had just five minutes' supply left.

[crwjerk]

Juneyao should have "turned right" and got out of the way!!! :p

[AGNES]

If the Qatari really had 5 min of fuel remained, for some reasons the Qatari went around on the final approach, even the Juneyao gave way, the Qatari would be doomed.

[ElitePilot]

I think it's more a question of "if" the Qatari had to go around they would have been into their 30mins final reserve and have some serious explaining to do rather than being doomed.

[Earl of Rochester]

Hopefully someone from Qatar Airways can assist by providing us with the actual info, preferably from the 777 driver.

[fox niner]

B777-300:

5 tons = 45 minutes.
5 minutes = 500 to 600 kilos

5 tons is not a lot of fuel in Chinese airspace.

[Non Zero]

If the Qatari really had 5 min of fuel remained, for some reasons the Qatari went around on the final approach, even the Juneyao gave way, the Qatari would be doomed.

It doesn't really matters if QR had or not 5' fuel!

The bible of radio communications at least in a JAR environment (CAP 413 Radiotelephony Manual) state:

'As soon as there is any doubt as to the safe conduct of a flight, immediately request assistance from ATC. Flight crews should declare the emergency situation early; it can always be cancelled.'

... priority must be given to the distress call! I don't think there are any doubt about it!

Now, if one ATC controller has to control two or more distress aircraft ... in minimum fuel, emergency fuel scenario ... the rules is 'first come, first serve!' unless the crew clearly announce the flight time remaining.

[Neptunus Rex]

...but all Chinese pilots speak English to level 6, right ICAO? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif Grrr... The English Language requirement applies only to international flights. Most Chinese domestic pilots cannot speak Engrish.

[goneferrying]

I wasn't aware of that, Neptunus. Thank you.

Be that as it may, I stand behind my previous comments. The language barrier is ever present, and a constant threat.

[RegDep]

Aviation Herald:

Qatar Airways confirmed on Aug 26th that due to a substantial delay because of weather at Pudong Airport the captain decided to divert to Hongqiao Airport declaring emergency enroute to Hongqiao because of concerns the flight might need to cut into final fuel reserve if further delayed. The aircraft landed safely at Hongqiao Airport with 5 tons of fuel remaining, more than 30 minutes of flight time remaining and above final fuel reserve. The airline specifically mentioned media reports in China, that the aircraft had only 5 minutes of fuel remaining, are not true.

[Spitoon]

The English Language requirement applies only to international flights.Interesting. I have heard this said before but I have never found it in the rules - can you point me at the reference?

[alwayzinit]

777-300.

5 tonnes, assuming it is symetrical, is just 800kgs above the LOW FUEL EICAS would display.

Leading to a Flap 20 landing, limited pitch for any G/A, possibly flying one wing down to get fuel to feed.

So about 5 mins of titting about time with some flap out, not much on a "Dark and Stormy Night"

[Dan Winterland]

The story made the South China Morning Post today and is interesting in it's assetions. It says the China Aviation Administration reported that the 777 had considerably more fuel remaining than the pilots told the controllers - enough for about half an hour's flying. However a fuel state of 5 tonnes, there was not much room for error.

What worries me is that our Ops manual requires us to declare an emergency if the aircraft will land below final reserve fuel which in our case is thirty minutes. If we were put into the same position as the Qatari crew and knew that a go around was going to put us in the position of landing with less than fianl reserve - we would have no option but to do what they did.

I suspect that this is a communication problem. I fly into Shanghai a lot and although outwardly the controllers appear to have a grasp of English, they just appear know the standard phrases and responses. If there is any problem which involves something non-standard, they struggle to comprehend.

In my opinion the actions of the Juneyao crew were indefensible if their reported fule state was accurate. THE scmp reports they have been suspended pending further investigations.

[hkgmjq]

Air incident based on lies, report says

Flight crews on both a Qatari and a domestic airliner lied about a fuel shortage during a scare this month, China's aviation watchdog claims
Will Clem in Shanghai

Aug 27, 2011

Flight crews on both aircraft involved in a controversial mid-air emergency over a Shanghai airport this month lied to air-traffic controllers, air-safety watchdogs said.

Pilots on flights operated by Qatar Airways and Juneyao Airlines both exaggerated fuel shortages in order to be given landing priority in the August 13 incident, China Central Television reported yesterday.

The Civil Aviation Administration has been investigating allegations that the pilot of Juneyao flight HO1112 refused to follow controllers' instructions to give way to a Qatar flight from Doha that had issued a Mayday call due to lack of fuel.

The pilots on Qatar flight QR888 reportedly requested an emergency landing as they had just five minutes' worth of fuel remaining, but the flight crew on the Juneyao aircraft - which was already on final approach to Hongqiao International Airport - ignored orders to give way, saying they were also running short of fuel.

The Qatar flight was forced to delay landing, but made it onto the runway without incident.

However, CCTV reported yesterday that the aviation administration found that both aircraft had considerably more fuel remaining than the pilots had told air-traffic controllers.

The Qatar aircraft, a Boeing 777-300ER, still had around five tonnes of aviation fuel after landing, sufficient for approximately half an hour's flying time, while the smaller Juneyao plane had between two and three tonnes, enough to keep it in the air for another hour, the report said.

The aviation administration's eastern branch could not be reached for comment yesterday, and no update had been posted on the administration's website since an initial statement released on Wednesday.

Juneyao said the flight crew involved had been suspended pending the outcome of the administration's investigation, but also stated that "parts of online discussions" of the incident had a "comparatively large discrepancy" from the facts.

Qatar, in a statement released late on Thursday night, said its aircraft had been diverted from Pudong International Airport, also in Shanghai, due to unforeseen thunderstorms.

"In the captain's judgment, in order not to compromise flight safety en route to Hongqiao airport, he declared an emergency."

The release made no mention of the amount of fuel the plane was carrying at the time, but said that media reports of the incident "contain information which is ambiguous and misleading".

A spokesman for the airline declined to elaborate.

"There are many reports and rumours on the internet, and much of the information is not accurate," he said. "The incident is currently under investigation and we are co-operating with the authorities."

Professor Sun Ruishan, director of the Research Institute of Civil Aviation Safety in Tianjin , said that although it was difficult to comment without knowing the full details of the case, it would be highly irregular for pilots to give inaccurate information to air-traffic controllers.

"In the interests of safety, it is absolutely necessary for air-traffic controllers to be able to trust what they are being told by pilots," Sun said. "There can be no room in the industry for pilots to be giving the wrong information so they can jump the queue. That would be a very immoral thing to do."

[email protected]

[Non Zero]

For what we know, did the Juneyao flight clearly declare MAYDAY?

[Wizofoz]

Some serious butt-covering going on here.

The Qatari may have landed with 5 tonnes of fuel, but only AFTER declaring an emergency and being given a priority approach. Had they not done so, and had had to hold further, they would have DEFINATLEY gone into fixed reserve and had an Emergency.

If Qatari SOPs are the same as ours, this was DEFINATLEY an urgency situation, and REQUIRED at least a PAN call. Thing is PAN is not recognised in many places, and it is absolutley at the Commanders discretion to institute a distress phase if he deems it necessary for flight saftey- SAFTEY, not expedience, which was clearly the case with the A320.

To give some numbers, FRES on a 777-300 is typically 3200kg (30 mins, 1500 ft at landing weight) and holding rate is around 6T/hr, so landing with 5T meant he had about one 1.5 min holding pattern between him and Min fuel.

To call initiating a distress Phase in those circumstances "Lying" is just not reasonable, and neither in refusing a go-around to make way for a MAYDAY aircraft when you have 1.5hrs worth in the tanks.

[Non Zero]

Yes ... the bottom line ... on the ground we are all professors and usually we are all very good at teaching what we don't know!

[DaHai]

Spitoon re your question. I do not have the exact wording with me, regarding ICAO English requirements. However, if I may paraphrase, they state that level 4 English is required for any pilot or ATC operating or handling an international flight.

[Shell Management]

Wiz - well said:):D

[Checkboard]

the captain decided to divert to Hongqiao Airport declaring emergency enroute to Hongqiao because of concerns the flight might need to cut into final fuel reserve if further delayed.

... so "if further delayed" you might have an emergency situation? :confused: That could be said to be true of every flight!

[lomapaseo]

To call initiating a distress Phase in those circumstances "Lying" is just not reasonable,

That's probably a new translation problem with a lot more behind the words.

[westhawk]

Lessons learned from the Avianca crash in New York changed some minds regarding both crew and ATC actions in response to low fuel level. If accurately quoted, the Chinese official's comments don't seem to demonstrate anything positive in the way of a modern safety culture. Good on the Chinese ATC and the Qatar flight crew in this case though. :ok:

[citizensun]

I am now flying in shanghai, the Juneyao Airbus captain is a Korean pilot,and now the crew is grounded for investigation.:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

[lederhosen]

It seems from all reports that had the Qatar crew not declared an emergency then they would have landed below minimum final reserve. Our ops manual tells us that we must declare an emergency if we expect to land with less than final reserve. The fact that they landed with a little bit more suggests they did exactly the right thing. I am with Wizofoz and most other posters on this one...well handled.

[galdian]

Well in the apparent simplest form the Chinese ATC understood the request from Qatar, issued appropriate ATC instructions to the locals .... and the locals told ATC to "f**k off".

Either the local ATC will win this and sort it out - or the local airlines will be allowed to control the airspace as their own, in which case why waste money on ATC??
Why not just a free for all, first in best dressed and...well a few collisions, people die but .... such is the price for progress??

[ATC Watcher]

Before jumping to more speculations, and start throwing stones ( Korean pilot flying in China, bad english of ATC, etc, I smell this coming )may I remind some of you that ATC is normally done is sectors with different frequencies/different controllers. What was declared on one frequncy was most probably not head by the controller handling final APP and/or by the A320 crew. How this was relayed upon, which words/language were used to convey the urgency, could perhaps shade some light to this incident. If you're on very short final , were cleared to land and going around means tons of paperwork in your non-just culture airline you might decide differently than most of us would.


Back to Avianca/NY : since then fuel emergency is declared ealier, but still language used is often misleading. Crew tend to mention tons or pounds of fuel, while controllers are interested in minutes remaining. "2 Tons" means little to ATC.

[ElitePilot]

But the way media report actual fuel (time) remaining is un-just.
What are the implications to the crew on landing with less than final reserve (30mins) fuel from the company and local authority/ac reg authority standpoint?

I think most sops state something along the lines if it becomes apparent landing with less than final reserve, a pan/mayday must be declared which means they did the right thing and as usual media have not helped (suprise suprise) :ugh:

[FR8R H8R]

Qatari should have just cut in front of Juneyao. No one in China honours the queue anyway. :ugh:

[Punchespilot]

I am keeping an open mind on this incident at the moment; however 3200kg on the 773 is 30minutes. 5000 kg maybe a bit early for a mayday but saying that who knows what other suitable aerodromes was available that day?

Were other aircraft diverting? Congestion at other airports etc.

May I also suggest 2 things?
The Media. We know they exaggerate. Lets take what they write with a pinch of salt { or pepper }

Second, let’s remember the main issue here, an emergency was declared; regardless if it was above the min fuel state, an emergency was still declared and should have had priority. ATC tried to give priority but the A320 refused to break off the approach. This is not acceptable nor justified .

[westhawk]

Crew tend to mention tons or pounds of fuel, while controllers are interested in minutes remaining. "2 Tons" means little to ATC.

Agreed that time remaining is what matters for both crew and ATC in the event of a "low fuel" situation. The quantity of fuel in pounds or kilos is probably only relevant to rescue fire fighting personnel in the event of a planned emergency landing. It's up to pilots to communicate fuel status in the form relevant to the situation. If necessary, I suppose ATC could request the pilot state it in the form required.

One thing the FAA did is to incorporate the term "minimum fuel advisory" into the US pilot/controller glossary. I would expect most ATCs appreciate being informed in advance when any undue delay will result in a low fuel emergency being declared. If ATC can accommodate the low fuel aircraft without the special handling then there might not be any need for an "emergency" and the cascading effects on the surrounding airspace that go with it. If a "pan-pan" for low fuel is the closest equivalent in ICAO lexicon, then it seems to be the appropriate notification to make. Another poster alluded to some ATCs being unresponsive to a PAN-PAN, so in this case a mayday call might be the only remaining option open to the flight crew.

What happened in this particular incident is still somewhat unclear due to the lack of reliable information source, but this Chinese official's accusation of "lying" on the part of the Qatar crew is concerning. I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect the language barrier is at play here.

Absent any credible contradictory information, ATC and the Qatar crew seem to have handled the occurrence as they should. The local airliner crew's role in this questionable at best and a blatant violation of right of way and compliance with ATC instructions regulations at worst. I suppose having the ATC audio and a reliable translator would be of some value in any attempt for us outsiders to make an informed judgment.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Chinese officials will no doubt try to spin this as the foreigner's fault. I would not trust them to have any sense of impartiality in these circumstances.

If I declare an emergency then I expect priority handling. I also expect to answer to my reasons for declaring an emergency, however I will do that after being safely on the ground and blocked in at the gate.

[dmacnz]

My 2 cents worth. I was also holding at pudong the time this all happened.
The problem as that there was alot of planes holding and Pudong approach was being less than helpful for everyone and would not let any plane divert to any near by alternates. Typical Chinese ATC " cannot" procedures!
I believe it was at this time when ATC refused to allow any aircraft to divert to nearby ZSSS or any other nearby airport that Qatar made the choose and made there decision they were landing at ZSSS.

[bubbers44]

Once I was in a situation where we were going to land at destination with 45 minutes fuel because we burned our alternate fuel getting lined up for a 30+ mile final into SFO. Yes, I could have diverted to the alternate but they were 8 miles apart and would have required resequencing so what was the point. I don't know the details of this incident but sometimes the emergency airplane might not have any less fuel than you.

[bekolblockage]

Juneyao should have "turned right" and got out of the way!!!

Almost 15 years in Hongkers and my Cantonese is crap, but I got it thanks. :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

PAN calls are recognised in China.

[Fatfish]

Landed with 45 mins fuel and he declared an emergency? Am I missing something here? :confused:

[ReverseFlight]

I find it hard to follow the facts because none has been officially announced and we don't know which part of the STAR or Rwy approach the respective aircraft were placed, nor their altitudes. However I am sure both were desperate to get into HongQiao as Chinese ATC won't realistically allow any alternate in that area except for Pudong.
Almost 15 years in Hongkersbekolblockage, if you stood at the crossroads at QiBao metro station, the aircraft on about 1nm final to 36R at HongQiao would be just scraping the rooftops - reminds me of Kowloon City in the good old Kai Tak days.

[WhiskeyKilo]

If the pilot was Korean and flying in China wouldn't they both be speaking in English as Korean and Mandarin are very different, or do most Koreans also speak Mandarin? But until the ATC calls are published we won't know for certain what occurred.

[A380 Jockey]

Wondering what the Qatari procedure might be with regards to declaring a Mayday or Pan...
I know it differs from airline to airline with a set ICAO baseline. But what is the QR procedure.
Just a thought ..

[Geragau]

Looks like the juneyao pilots called the qatari bluff!

If the juneyao crew were on final approach after extensive holding, a missed approach would certainly put them in similar low fuel state necessitating a pan/mayday call of their own! So there might have been multiple pans/maydays on account of one highly premature/premeditated mayday from the Qr aircraft. :rolleyes: Just playing the devil's advocate.:E

[break_break]

Spoke to a Korean lad, and I don't have any means of confirming his sources.
The Juneyao Capt is a local chap.

And according to a local news link, the official mentioned that in such willful misconduct act of potentially endangering public safety, the skipper is facing possible death penalty.

I definitely agree with the willful misconduct part. And it's regardless whether or not the Chinese capt called the bluff on Qatari, he should have given way.

On the other hand, death penalty.. I sure hope we are not going down this road.

[PO dust devil]

Greetings all,

Don't be under any illusion that PRC pilots will give the consideration due to that type of urgency. My own experience there is that the airways are carrying a cultural problem of "after me you're next" that is usual and everyday life in PRC.

You'll often find their own pilots either carrying less fuel or over max gross to carry the high pax loadings valued by their masters. The aviation culture won't permit a can't do attitude even though it contradicts what western agencies like to hear. Just because PRC companies and CAAC, say whatever western agencies like to hear, doesn't mean that's what will happen at line level.

First hand.:rolleyes:

[Radar Contact]

CAAC decided to:

- revoke the pilot licence of Juneyao's Korean A320 captain without possibility to re-apply for a pilot licence and suspend the pilot licence of the first officer for a period of 6 months. In China the captain is prohibited to operate as any crew member.

- reduce Juneyao Airline's flights by 10% for the next 3 months

- stop Juneyao Airline's expansion plans

- suspend Juneyao Airline's rights to hire foreign pilots

- require Juneyao Airline to provide training of 40 hours to all their foreign pilots in order to educate them of China's civil aviation flight rules, operating rules, the company's operating manual and cockpit resource management.


Don't you think it's an absolute joke to reduce flights by 10% and stop expansion?

[ATC Watcher]

Don't you think it's an absolute joke to reduce flights by 10% and stop expansion?

That is probably the best and most effective way to get the managers /owners of the airline attention in that part of the world : cut their money...
Not bad I'd say...for a communist country :p

[Ndicho Moja]

A good start at least! I have to operate into Chinese airspace about once a month and dislike every minute of it.

[hyzhao11]

tell me,why do u dislike every minutes when you fly in China?whoever force u into China?

[hyzhao11]

ATC watcher, do u think you are auperior to pilots in a communist country?never forget,communism was created by your European man.

[ddylj]

Echo...
That's the POINT!
CAAC Investigation Report Summary:- ATC ordered Juneyao crew to yield for 6 times in 7 minutes, but the crew denied all!- After landed, Juneyao aircraft (A320) still hold 2900 kg fuel while Qtar's (B777) had 5200 kg.PS: according the web, Juneyao captain is from South Korea and she used to be hotel receptionist before she decided to be a pilot.

[Wizofoz]

according the web, Juneyao captain is from South Korea and she used to be hotel receptionist before she decided to be a pilot.

How is that even a little bit relevant?

I used to stack Supermarket shelves, now I fly 777s.

If the said Captain felt it was against the wishes of her employer to go-around when instructed, that is the fault of her training, not her nationality, gender or former employment.

[ATC Watcher]

hyzhao11 : ATC watcher, do u think you are auperior to pilots in a communist country?never forget,communism was created by your European man.

Definitively not, sorry, this was meant as a joke, not an offence. I just find it amusing that a communist government has to use such methods to get back in line local private airline company owners .

PS : I know a litle bit about European hard line communism, we had a wall here until 1990 .

[cavadina]

It's ok for junyao stoping expansion after this event, I am glad to see both planes are safe finally. China is short of pilots, So it's possible to let some unqualified ones into it. hoping 40 hrs are enough for the training.

[Non Zero]

Any form of generalization have the tendency to create frustration that leads to a dangerous and useless cultural confrontation ... ' we are the product of our past and we worship the Gods of our Fathers.'

[CaptainProp]

This knee jerk reaction smells a lot like something coming out of the astronauts running the Indian DGCA. What if the crew was Chinese? Stop recruiting Chinese pilots and only take on expats?!

[CaptainProp]

suspend Juneyao Airline's rights to hire foreign pilots

Is this really correct? If so, what's your source?

[Microburst2002]

The violation was absolutely blatant and unjustified.

The punishment is exemplary, but they should have focused more on the crazy woman rather than with the airline, unless they have found that the airline is hirig crazy women to fly their airplanes as a policy.

How many pilots have done something like that without being mentally ill? This woman is mentally ill, for sure.

[highflyer40]

not really sure how her being a woman has any relevance?

[Panama Jack]

Is this really correct? If so, what's your source?

Incident: Qatar B773 and Juneyao A320 near Shanghai on Aug 13th 2011, fuel emergency or not (http://avherald.com/h?article=441d508b/0000&opt=0)

[The link]

CAAC Announces Official Findings about Qatar Airways MAYDAY Incident

By Simon Li, WCARN.com | Aug. 30, 2011


On August 29, East China Regional Administration of CAAC (Civil Aviation Administration of China) published findings and verdicts of the official investigation into the incident involving a Juneyao Airlines pilot's refusal to follow ATC instructions and give way to another flight with MAYDAY declaration on August 13, 2011.


The official conclusion not only considers the refusal to follow ATC instructions by cockpit crew of Juneyao Airlines flight HO1112 when an emergency declaration was already made concerning another aircraft is a very serious violation of applicable rules, regulations and legislations, but such behavior was also contrary to the professional ethics supposed to be possessed by pilots.


Based on the aforementioned official conclusion, CAAC East China Regional Administration has made the following administrative decisions:


1. The processing of any application (to be) submitted by Juneyao Airlines concerning its business expansion, branch company establishment and aircraft purchasing/leasing etc. is temporarily suspended whilst reducing the airline's flight capacity by 10% for 3 calendar months.


2. The permission for recruiting foreign flight crew by Juneyao Airlines is temporarily suspended while the authority conducts re-evaluation on this matter.


3. Juneyao Airlines must conduct at least 40 hours of ground theoretical training courses to all of its foreign pilots within the next 30 days. The training focuses should relate to the rules and regulations of flight operations in China as well as CRM and the airline's "Operating Manual". The training processes will be closely monitored with results carefully assessed by the CAAC East China Regional Administration.


4. Under the circumstance of clear violation of relevant rules set in CCAR-91-R2 (General Operations and Flight Rules) by Juneyao Airlines flight HO1112's cockpit crew, it has been decided that the Chinese ATPL (Airline Transport Pilot License) of the concerned Juneyao Airlines' Korean captain will be revoked with neither any future application nor working as a cockpit crew within China to be allowed, and the relevant civil aviation authorities in Korea will be notified. Additionally, the pilot license of flight HO1112's co-pilot is also to be withheld for 6 months by the authority.

[CaptainProp]

Yea, Pan Jack, I have seen that but its only "another" news website.... Anyone with a reference to the actual CAAC statement...? If one exists...?

[SLFguy]

"not really sure how her being a woman has any relevance? "

I've witnessed more management bullying of women than I have of men..

[worldsm]

That is translated based on the offcial website,
???????_?ú? (http://hd.caac.gov.cn/HDYW/201108/t20110829_42154.html)

[Algol]

I remember going into JFK once in rock bottom CAT2 conditions. When taken out of the hold at Windsor Locks to commence approach on 22L (the active CAT2 runway) they put us on a strange intercept heading, and when I queried it the Yank responded with a rapid fire story that WXhadimprovedtoCAT1so22RwasnowactivelockoncontactTWRgoodday! !!:eek:

In the midst of our hurried re-brief and navaid re-set (still in thick clag) for the CAT1 22R (with its offset LOC and huge displaced threshold) I was blaming myself for not expecting this (when in reality why would anyone given it was crap all day and forecast to remain so) when I heard a Korean Air 747 being given the same instruction to follow on behind us.

There was a momentary pause and the Korean came back with 'Solly, Company procedure forbid this runway'....and much to my surprise the Yank said 'ok, turn left hdgXXX join 22L ILS'.

We scraped in on 22R, just feet away from a GA (CAT1 WX my ass). Afterward I blamed myself all over again for accepting this mad RWY change - but the trained culture at my brow-beaten little airline was 'just do whatever they say or you'll be told to GA'.

Yet the Korean got no such instruction.

Lots of lessons learned that day. I stopped being quite so flexible or co-operative with crap JFK ATC for one thing.

I don't know much about Koreans or their culture in aviation - but perhaps a sort of self-centered self-preservationism(?) is at work. With a healthy pinch of distrust of third world ATC.

Given the JFK experience, I wouldnt knock it too hard.

I guess the lesson for flying into China is - carry LOTS of fuel.

[Phantom Driver]

Algol:

I guess the lesson for flying into China is - carry LOTS of fuel.
Indeed!

Also agree about JFK ATC. Sharp guys doing a difficult job, yes. On the other hand, some of them need to cut some slack for the occasional visitor to God's own country;(yes, I know, this subject has been covered ad nauseam on previous threads).

However, you only have to listen to some of our good ol' USA brethren operating in overseas ATC environments to realise that a little hubris might be in order (i.e "foreign" ATC are usually a lot more accommodating and can be a lot less condescending!).

I'm sure a great contributor to runway incursion incidents over there is the failure to seek clarification of taxi instructions due to the fear of getting a good telling off, or even worse, barbed sarcasm....

[flyinchina]

Juneyao Airlines, who offers the highest salary for foreign pilots ($17,000 per month!!), is now called halted to hire foreign captains by CAAC.

I think I will choose another airways with stable performances and better management.

China Hands Out Punishment After Airlines' Bizarre Mid-Air Stand-Off - China Real Time Report - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/08/30/china-hands-out-punishment-after-airlines-bizarre-mid-air-stand-off/?mod=wsj_share_linkedin)

From the previous news, we would know that this company has some problems on management, financing and even forget the most important thing "SAFETY".

It does have some good benefits (high salary), and sounds great like Non-Type Rate captain is accepted. But to have a better life flying with it, I can not imagine who worse it would be...

Let's review some news about Juneyao Airlines:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/441368-chinese-private-airlines-juneyao-spring.html

Juneyao; It has to be the worst of the pack, not even VOR holding is representing them anymore. No one is happy and they will have a hard time finding expat pilots in the future.
There were many stories about them, everyone lost touching them, from agencies to pilots. China is starting to have a very bad reputation at handling its expats. These two are not helping .

[ddylj]

Code:
according the web, Juneyao captain is from South Korea and she used to be hotel receptionist before she decided to be a pilot.
How is that even a little bit relevant?

I used to stack Supermarket shelves, now I fly 777s.

If the said Captain felt it was against the wishes of her employer to go-around when instructed, that is the fault of her training, not her nationality, gender or former employment.

Wizofoz, it's up to you if you enhoy the so called "reading betweeen the lines" but I was just telling the fact rather than to offende anybody.

PS: Natinallities of the persons involved (ATC, Captain, 1st Officer) are definitely relevant to this case, there could be due the poor communications.

[rmiller774]

I am stunned by how quickly the final decision was issued - if I understand correctly that this incident occurred August 13 and the decision was rendered August 29.

[wingunder]

I am PLEASED to see that it WAS Actioned so quick, none of that PR crap running between lawyers for months on end, for the actual incident to get lost in translations between a bunch of sharks.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
Thank god it wasnt in the USA where im sure some of the pax would chased out of the airstairs by lawyers telling them that now have psychological problems due to the incident that just happened around them of which this was the first time they were learning of it !
What more evidence do the authorities need......ATC tapes, CVR !
We all know where a culture starts in a company so to hear the company is getting a slap on the hand aswell is actually quite refreshing.
The Captain, be it a man or woman needs strung up by their balls ( she must have some or a severe lack of brain matter )....to hear she may get the death penalty could be a bit extreme........but when in Rome make sure you know how the Romans play ball ! :=

[Kalium Chloride]

More detail here:

China's Juneyao faces CAAC sanctions after safety breach (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/08/31/361443/chinas-juneyao-faces-caac-sanctions-after-safety-breach.html)

[USMCProbe]

Wingunder;
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the crap that goes on in the US (my country BTW), but the Chinese do the same thing only a bit different. They band together in an angry mob, and demand compensation right then and there, on your aircraft. If they see it is a foreign Captain, the price doubles. you have to call security to get them off the aircraft. Ask me how I know this:ugh:
God only knows what went on in this actual incident. The western press is bad enough. The Chinese press? Give me a break. For all we will ever know it was the ATC that screwed up, but thank god it was Qatar Airways, and a foreign captain at Juneyao. The Chinese can make up any crap story they want, blame everyone else, and come out looking good. This is typical "saving face", on a national level.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<The licence of the South Korean captain of the Juneyao A320 involved in the incident has been revoked, and he has been banned from working in China. >>

I thought it was a lady?

[flyinchina]

yes, a lady.

[ReverseFlight]

Oh, so she got picked on because she was a foreign lady.

Reminds me of that awful thread of a foreign kid being kicked by a crowd ...

[Suvarnabhumi]

It was not the lady Korean Captain, it was a male Captain.

Juneyao already have 2-3 aircraft grounded daily due to lack of foreign Captains, hence the $17,000 pm salary.

[A-3TWENTY]

Juneyao already have 2-3 aircraft grounded daily due to lack of foreign Captains, hence the $17,000 pm salary.


Uau!!! The salaries are expected to go higher in the near future !!!

Seem we will be back for the good old times soon....

[worldsm]

The official investigation report said that was a Korean Capt but no mention of the Cpat. gender.
And the lady had an announcment on her local blog, denying it because she said she was on a normal break on Aug.13.2011.

[stormyweathers]

When you declare a minimum fuel advisory, you wont have any priority yet. If you determine that you WILL or MOST LIKELY WILL land with less than final reserves (30min.) you declare an emergency for priority handling. MAYDAY is when you are going down or serious immediate danger or loss of life is present.

[armchairpilot94116]

I think the sentence on the Captain was a bit harsh. Banned for life from flying an aircraft in Chinese airspace. That means that he/she can not even fly for a non Chinese carrier operating in Chinese airspace, even say on its way to Europe. And may limit his/her career.

I think ATC (being the govt) is very upset about pilots dis-obeying direct orders six times in seven mins (if I read correctly). And they wanted to make an example of the pilot so others will think twice in the future. How much leeway do pilots normally have regarding whether to accept or deny demands from aTC?

No doubt it is very important to get out of the way of an aircraft that has declared MAYDAY in any country and not doing so is very unprofessional.

Still life time ban? How about five years? Ten?

I wonder what the USA would do in this situ or a western European nation?

[RobertS975]

There was much made about the "failure to communicate" a critical fuel situation a little over 20 years ago that led to the crash of an Avianca 707 on Long island while being vectored to the final at JFK.

ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 707-321B HK-2016 Cove Neck, NY (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900125-0)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<No doubt it is very important to get out of the way of an aircraft that has declared MAYDAY in any country and not doing so is very unprofessional.>>

Not sure what you mean by "get out of the way"? Are you suggesting that pilots should make their own decisions about getting out of the way? In a busy TMA that could be incredibly dangerous and highly UNprofessional. Perhaps it may be necessary in some places but where I've worked ATC takes the necessary affords appropriate priority and safe routeing for the emergency aircraft.

[Non Zero]

I think the sentence on the Captain was a bit harsh. Banned for life from flying an aircraft in Chinese airspace.

Hanging one to show the flag ... pretty bad ... well he/she can always try to join QR on the 320!:O

[armchairpilot94116]

I meant of course follow ATC commands, which this pilot refused to do and is now facing harsh punishment. He/she continued with the landing against ATC's wishes and got in the way of the Mayday aircraft in the process. Prevented the Mayday aircraft from landing a little bit sooner.

To repeat my thinking:

1. yes it was wrong to continue the approach and get in the way of an aircraft that has declared Mayday (for whatever reason good or unfounded).
2. yes he/she should be punished (although I believe this particular punishment to be unduly harsh).
3. just a general question: in what situation or situations can a pilot not obey ATC ?

edit: in this case pretty clear, abandon approach and give way to Mayday aircraft. But in other less critical ATC demands , is it possible for Captains to have any say?

[westhawk]

I wonder what the USA would do in this situ

The most common FAA response to a complaint of this nature against a pilots actions would be to initiate an investigation to determine whether a violation of regulations in fact occurred. ATC voice and radar records would be reviewed, interviews conducted and an initial finding made as to whether to proceed with formal investigation or drop the matter. Emergency revocation of a US pilot certificate is possible with certain kinds of violations and circumstances.

Pilots flying other than US registered aircraft can typically expect the initial findings and supporting evidence of violation or deviation to be forwarded to the aviation authority for the state having jurisdiction over the pilot and/or the aircraft. Under agreements with other ICAO signatories, this is similar to what US pilots can expect in case of a flight deviation or suspected flight rule violation while operating within international airspace or within the airspace of a great many countries around the world.

These things happen sometimes and international agreements exist to deal with it. It's sometimes unfortunate that countries don't agree in all matters, but that's the way things go.

[Yankee Whisky]

I was tought a basic rule of the air that in essence, states that the
stronger gives way to the weaker.
Therefore a power plane gives way to a glider, balloon etc. By extention,
an aircraft having sufficient fuel to "give way" and make an overshoot should indeed do that, so the one who has stated "low fuel" can make an immediate landing.
I also presume that IF a "low fuel" position means that an overshoot is
impossible, the PIC would have declared a "Mayday".
The Korean is obviously and blatendly at fault, leave alone the complete lack of courtesy and airmanship.

[ElitePilot]

Without any ATC transcripts it's still very difficult to make a complete judgement for us.
For sure there's no excuse to disregard ATC instructions but in a region where ATC comms in english is not necessarily the primary form of communications there could be elements of misunderstanding or non-communication.

[Akbar Al Sabah]

The high handed verdict and sentence has been handed the Korean pilot and his first officer. We may not know why or understand why they had not gone around if ATC had ordered them to. However, taking account into the Korean mindset, any missed approach would have cause him to get into a low fuel situation. He was not articulate or had the presence of mind to declare that doing a missed approach may cause him to be a " mayday " case himself. Koreans are basically silent types who do not simply broadcast their problems UNTIL ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

In his mind, he can't see how by going around he could really facilitate that much faster the Qatari plane can get to the ground. Given the fact that the A320 is slower but not by that much unless the B777-300ER was making a flapless approach at flap up speed to short finals.

There was probabaly a communication problem. ATC ZSSS should have simply order him or vectored him away without all the unintelligible Chinglish mutterings; I am certain the Juneyao crew would have complied or at least declare their intentions to avoid their own possible fuel " mayday " had they have to go around.

[johnnyringo42]

I am sure the QR CEO has already fired the June Yao Captain after questioning the FO and the Cabin Crew about the Captain.

[johnnyringo42]

I like what you said and totally agreed about the ATC instruction that shouldve been given

[fcuandmcdu]

I would like to ask you.if you are interceptting loc 18nm from the airport and QR 5 mile behind and higher than your ALT and he call for mayday.who has a priority?

I heard from friend flying in china and this capt instructed in english once rest of atc com was done by all in chinese.he tryed to talk with atc in Eng,but there were no reply in Eng from ATC.

[Kalistan]

If he was on the loc 18nm, ATC ZSSS could easily have just vectored him off and let the QR through. There are a lot of hidden unknowns.

Looking at the fuel remaining for both aircrafts with the Juneyao A320 having only 5 minutes more remaining endurance than the QR B777, it was certain that had the Juneyao aircraft gone around, he would have been the next one declaring fuel emergency. Then another aircraft would probably have to give way to him and there would have been a domino effect of maydays from succeeding aircrafts.

[MIGHTY 8]

Are there any links to the actual ATC tapes of this event?

[bubbers44]

I was in a long line up going into SFO in a 737 one day which ate up my alternate fuel but diverting would use as much fuel as continuing so I think even though I hadn't declared minimum fuel I would have not gone around for an emergency declared by another. I have never had to declare minimum fuel in my whole career but this time was on the edge of doing so. He probably was in the same situation.

[Non Zero]

I have never had to declare minimum fuel in my whole career but this time was on the edge of doing so.

Usually numbers don't lie ... all you need is total fuel quantity, fuel flow and basic math knowledge ... and it shouldn't be such a hard decision making process for a mayday call!

Having said that ...

... since the level of readiness changes from pilot to pilot and varies with different scenarios ... your Physiology, Physical Status and Motivation may have played some tricks on you ....

... so sensations, emotions and other non-normal feelings are to be consider as early warning of a worse situation to come!

When you have all the numbers ... a good rule of thumb is to keep your bravery for next landing ... and you'll never get in trouble!

You can always cancel a mayday call if you need to!

[bubbers44]

So since I landed with legal 45 minute reserve fuel I should have decided if it was 44 minutes or 46 minutes to start doing mayday calls? Then if I get a shorter turn on I cancel it? I'm sure bay approach would be impressed with my distraction so I could keep recalculating my landing fuel.

[169west]

And if you are single, add 5 minutes for mum and an other 5 minutes for granny. If married with kids, self explanatory math!
You can find those number in volume one, limitations ... human limitations ... we are not computer yet!
Bottom line, it is permissible (highly recommended) to make mistake on the safe side. Mistakes on the other side usually lead to a bigger problem!

[WYOMINGPILOT]

"During the entire process, air traffic controllers commanded flight HO1112 to give way six times in the space of seven minutes, but the flight crew rejected this each time," said the CAAC.
The 777 eventually landed safely after air traffic controllers employed "other measures", the CAAC added.
Inspections of both aircraft after landing showed the 777 had a remaining fuel weight of 5,200kg (11,500lb) and a flying time of 18min. The Juneyao A320 had a fuel weight of 2,900kg and a flying time of 42min.
Calling the Juneyao flight crew's behaviour a "serious violation" of aviation regulations, the CAAC said the crew had violated the "career integrity" of pilots.
It said the flight crew of the Qatar 777 had acted appropriately, but the pilots had failed to gauge the aircraft's fuel levels accurately. The CAAC has referred the matter to the Qatari civil aviation authorities.
It seems the Qatar crew is not out of the woods yet. The CAAC has clearly forwarded the case to the Qatar DGCA for further review and possible actions against the crew. The Korean pilot has been banned from China indefinitely but the Korean CAA could also take action against the pilot if they hold a Korean license. I think most pilots would cringe at the prospect of their CAA doing another inspection. The Qatar crew might end up with license revocations or administrative punishment. Serious implications for all pilots operating in Chinese airspace to consider.

[Akbar Al Sabah]

Just a small correction, 5200kgs of juice on a B777-300 ER equates to about 43 minutes endurance with flaps 1.

From my armchair, it looks more like a communication problem with the Chinese f/o saying stuff to ATC which the Korean skipper probably knew nothing about. There are a lot of smart arse RHSeaters in all airlines, especially those who work in their national carriers using their own mother tongue in communications with ATC. ATC ZSSS should have just vector him away.

This incident will probably scare off a lot of Korean pilots from applying to Juneyao, Air China Cargo, Yangtze.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Yes you are correct. Add the 30 mins. Final reserve Fuel to the quoted figures so Qatar 777 had 48 total mins. of fuel and Juneyao had 72 mins. of fuel remaining.

[Flying Phoenix]

While the punishment may seem harsh, there is no doubt that the pilot's of Juneyao were fundamentally wrong in disobeying an ATC instruction. Unless the safety of their own flight was in jeopardy by following such an instruction they had no choice but to go-around and make room for QATAR. Did the Juneyao crew factor the possibility that on landing, they might blow a tire (whatever) and block the runway thereby complicating the emergency even further? Probably not. What is the appropriate punishment? Who knows. I will say this however, the Captain and First Officer will probably never make the same mistake again.

[A-3TWENTY]

In China , they are still in early last century , so they believe that people`s learning is directly proporcional to the punishment applied.

Regs state that a PIC should declare an emergency fuel everytime they are already below minimuns or when they believe he will be below minimuns as he gets the field.

The chinese ATC is so bad that sometimes is impossible to understand what is the sequence , or what is the next ATC`s move. In this cenario , declaring an emergency is a very preventive action against chinese ATC imagination and a way to guarantee that you will land within legal limits.

It`s important to remember that whatever happens , just in a very very clear mistake they (chinese) will admit their ATC is bad , messy and they are very poor in english as long as something goes out of the standards.

I work in china and for sure they are already preparing something no sense against the foreign pilots. Something like CAAC checks , etc.

They become histeric when something happens. Indeed ,I strongly believe they will finally como to the conclusion that flying is too dangerous and they will return to trains, cars and waggons.

[Non Zero]

They become histeric when something happens. Indeed ,I strongly believe they will finally como to the conclusion that flying is too dangerous and they will return to trains, cars and waggons.

Trains? After the recent accident they better evaluate a safer form of transportation!

The entire world is closely watching China for a lot of different reason ... and they are striving to look good with obvious non-sense consequences ...

... non sense against the foreign pilots. Something like CAAC checks , etc.

[Kalistan]

China is growing and developing now just like the US, Europe and the rest of the first world some half a century back. Back then the pollution, ridiculous laws and practices, strife and disorganisation, chaos and bogeyman politice etc in the first world were absolutely mind bongling from today's perpective. China is going through the whole process albeit at an accelerated pace and watched closely by the greedy, bigotted and hegemonic western powers. The QE2 meant to dilute value of Chinese foreign reserves, all sorts of tricks and procedural barriers to stymie its growth and influence. Massive disinformation and misinformation about it's rise in military spending, denial of sales of high tech stuff to China, massive psych war campaigns to demonise and malign China so much so that because the whole world mainstream media is English based the " sheeple " of the world just swallow all these line, hook and sinker. The " sheeple " then join in the Chinese bashing bandwagon without questioning their own sorry selves' motivation being influenced by green serpentine jealousy and utter herd mentality.

Being from the subcontinent I am often flabbergasted by my country's politicians' utter buffonery in echoing China bashing rhetoric instead of learning constructively from that nation's difficult rise in the face of total and absolute sabotage from the western world.

[Ace Springbok]

Kalistan...well said and I certainly agree with you. Glad you are not of the herd that graze all over this awesome planet of ours. I take issue though at the use of the world " sheeple "; sheep are docile but not stupid. We can't say that about the homo sapien mobs who swallow the mainstream media's brainwashing line, hook and sinker!

Having said that, let's get back to Chinese ATC....their procedures sucks and the airways structure is utter nonsense. Coming into approach frequency into PEK with loads of radar vectors and 3 to 4 runway changes is utterly ridiculous as far as ATC procedures are concerned. It's time Chinese authorities get their CAAC to work out with the military to widen the use of their airspace.

[Non Zero]

Chinese ATC....their procedures sucks and the airways structure is utter nonsense. Coming into approach frequency into PEK with loads of radar vectors and 3 to 4 runway changes is utterly ridiculous as far as ATC procedures are concerned. It's time Chinese authorities get their CAAC to work out with the military to widen the use of their airspace. ... Chinese need to be a little bit more humble to learn from who already experienced the same problem 20 years ago! They can learn form the demon English speaker western world ... or they can have a look of other not-native English speaking Country. Do not underestimate the possibilities to learn from other mistakes too!

In the Aviation Show Business speaking the same language is pretty damn important ... cheating on how good is your English is NOT the best solution to solve your fast growing problem!

[Sqwak7700]

Being from the subcontinent I am often flabbergasted by my country's politicians' utter buffonery in echoing China bashing rhetoric instead of learning constructively from that nation's difficult rise in the face of total and absolute sabotage from the western world.

Learning? Oh yeah, it isn't hard getting things done in a dictatorship by keeping your people under strict control of the military.

I don't need media to tell me this, I see it plainly when I go there myself.

Oh, and I guess the little mess in Beijing 20 years ago was also the media bashing the Chinese. :rolleyes:

Get a clue :yuk:

[africangenesis]

@Kalistan,

"The QE2 meant to dilute value of Chinese foreign reserves, all sorts of tricks and procedural barriers to stymie its growth and influence"

Chinese dollar denominated reserves are in US treasuries and those treasuries are what is purchased with newly printed dollars. In fact, even though there is not a new round of quantitative easing, the federal reserve has guaranteed that interest rates will not be allowed to rise for 2 years. That preserves the value of the treasuries that China holds.

The benefit of new printed fiat currency goes to those who get first access to it before its lower value is recognized, and in this case that is the Chinese.

Frankly, the Chinese might be better off if those new dollars were directly given to the American consumer, because then China might be experiencing double digit growth again, and there might be more workers employed in the US to honor those dollars.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, don't spread every conspiracy theory you hear.

[Kalistan]

Sqwak, I see a bigoted paranoia running through your veins. The first world had the mess too and are now getting into one of a slightly different nature.

Twenty years ago the wily and diabolical shadowy forces of the first world tried their tricks ( after they had their luck with the Soviet bloc ) and perpetrated their pre emptive strike to curtail the rise of China. Thankfully that failed, otherwise there would have been a break up like the USSR and the nation plunged into chaos and anarchy.

[500N]

"Frankly, the Chinese might be better off if those new dollars were directly given to the American consumer, because then China might be experiencing double digit growth again, and there might be more workers employed in the US to honor those dollars."

Interesting thought.

Even with a huge population becoming middle class, without the US and Europe booming, China will suffer a slow down. You can only build so many vacant cities !!!

[Non Zero]

Twenty years ago the wily and diabolical shadowy forces of the first world tried their tricks ( after they had their luck with the Soviet bloc ) and perpetrated their pre emptive strike to curtail the rise of China. Thankfully that failed, otherwise there would have been a break up like the USSR and the nation plunged into chaos and anarchy.

... and you know it is really just a matter of time ... as soon as the government will allowed Facebook, Twitter, YouTube etc you will see something similar to what's going on in North Africa and Syria... and
... and such a dramatic devastation like a civil war is NOT what the demon western world wants for the simple reason they will loose cheap labor and strategic financial connection to a well know corrupted system.

[pilotss2001]

The speculation is interesting to read but worthless. And if your making guesses and have never flown in Mainland China its rated at negative worth.

China just like many other governments will progress slowly in these improvements until something disastrous happens. I don't know many other governments in the world modernizing their infrastructure at mach speeds either. The norm is to maximize the system until almost total chaos or an accident happens and then build improvement.

The airspace situation here in China is a problem and the Military is one of them. They need to cede more control to the CAAC.

The Chinese Military is not keen or intimidated to give any of their power away.

I'll give you two examples:

1: A Western company in TEDA ships chemicals in from 2 hours south of the city. They hire ex-military and current military drivers to avoid the police from "fines"

2: In Tianjin on the approach to the 16s the military decided to build a communications tower on the approach.....without telling anyone. The CAAC went bezerk. CAAC vs. Military = Military all the time. Almost vfr minimus for runway 16 and a useless ILS.

I can't see anything we as lowai can do except be vigilant, carry extra gas, and do not let yourself get near minimum fuel in China EVER. And maybe that's what these pilots were doing. They had fuel but they had their personal bingo fuel numbers and in China all your alternates can close instantly because their are no parking spots. Some of your alternates just refuse to take you at all. You have to work out your own system.

You wanted those four bars so here's the test and here of the keys. Bring her back in one piece.

[das Uber Soldat]

sqwuak7700, dont feed the trolls. ;)