Tianjin Airlines

[pilot2011]

I have a few questions about Tianjin Airlines as I am really interested in possibly obtaining a job with this airline.
Questions:
1. Are there any U.S. pilots that currently work for this airline?
2. If so, could you please provide me with some info about work environment?
3. Also, the pay looks really nice, but I was would like to know how one's paycheck is taxed.
4. Also, how are the living arrangements in China and what would one expect to potentially pay for rent in China? How easily is one able to obtain a nice rental?
5. Is Parc the best company to go through to potentially obtain a job for Tianjin?
6. Any advantages or disadvantages?
7. Is there a way to prepare for any potential testing requirements to convert someone's FAA ATPL into the appropriate license for China?
8. Any other info would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you

[hongkongfooey]

Hey buddy, not a yank or working for Tainjin, but have flown extensively in the area and stayed in Tainjin many times.

1. Are there any U.S. pilots that currently work for this airline?
Not sure, but often hear yank accents on other chinese carriers, especially Spring airlines.

2. If so, could you please provide me with some info about work environment?
If you look at a few other theads on South asia you will see that there is a common theme, you don't get what you are promised, you are at the mercy of the Chinese with regard to pay and conditions, that is, once u jump through all the hoops that most of their own drivers could'nt get close to, then move 1/2 way around the world, it's too late to just turn around and say " see ya later " when they start shafting you. I have experienced the lies and BS 1st hand, it's not a myth. Even if they do pay what they promise, you will be fined for doing 11kts around a corner instead of 10, landing 40lbs overweight in a 160,000lb a/c, etc etc, so they will get you one way or another. Of course, unless you are a chain smoker your lungs wil be subject to poison pollution the likes of which must be seen to be believed, don't be sucked in by the photos taken on the handful of days per year when the pollution is actually less than 10 times the WHO standards, or 20 times on a bad day. The figures are wide and varied as with everything Chinese, but it is estimated over a million people die from pollution in China each year and the quality of life for 10s of millions of others is sub standard, and its not just in the air, they have destroyed the land and water as well.
From friends who work at other chinese carriers you have to put up with smoking in the cockpit, level 3 or worse english and absolutely nothing in common with the other crew member(s).

3. Also, the pay looks really nice, but I was would like to know how one's paycheck is taxed.
Tax is quite high, not sure exactly but around 35% average and China is not cheap to live in, unless you like a lot of rice ! Like most expats you will probably spend a fortune trying to get away from the place and good luck with staff travel, these people move around in multiples of 1000s at the numerous holidays throughout the year.

4. Also, how are the living arrangements in China and what would one expect to potentially pay for rent in China? How easily is one able to obtain a nice rental?
Pick a number : 400USD for a 35 sq mtr flat in a ****ty part of town or 3500USD for a 175sq mtr ( 1800sqft ) 3 bed 2 bath . If you like noise, living VERY close to millions of people, and having not enough room to swing a cat, then china is for you.

5. Is Parc the best company to go through to potentially obtain a job for Tianjin?
I believe PARC are very reputable, again you will see this if you research this forum

6. Any advantages or disadvantages?
Advantages ? better than unemployment. Disadvantages ? not much better than unemployment IMHO

7. Is there a way to prepare for any potential testing requirements to convert someone's FAA ATPL into the appropriate license for China?
Again, not personal experience but I believe the fail rate for the Chinese licence conversion is quite high, however I am sure there are plenty of " practice " exams available. The medical is slightly more difficult than NASA, which is hilarious when you see the average Chinese pilot who's only exercise is running to the smoking room during turn arounds ( thats the decent ones that don't smoke in th a/c )
Also they will give you a sim workout that would have 95% of their pilots crashing and burning, I think it's because they hate that they have to hire gweilos ;)
8. Any other info would be greatly appreciated!
If you have a family that have to go with you I would say Don't do it !!! If you are single, well hell, give it a go I guess, I just wish someone would have given me the above info before I left home, but hey, it's all right here on the net

Good luck !!

[treykule]

Well, looks like someone is not happy.

2011: I sent you a PM with a bit more positive info in it.

cheers

[BUDDHA170]

Hey treykule, can you send me some of that info to please!!! My wife has job offer already and I'm applaying to Tianjin through Parc!!

Thanks a million. Buddha

[carlosgustavo]

Very Good post. But I'm shock with finning their own
pilots because light flight parameters excedance.

Do you know this from different people or is just a one person impression?

Is it the city of Tianjin ok?

Thanks in advance

[work to live]

For everyone's information if you are looking to come to Tianjin Airlines

First a couple of disclaimers. I do not know how things are in the States. Everyone that is here now on the 190 is only here as they did not have a job and most are only here until something better comes along. Its not the best paid contract,for that look at NAS in Saudi. When you come to Tianjin you will have a huge culture shock and everyone handles that differently. Some have sworn not to come back after the application process. There is no interview,it is an application process and if you tick all the boxes you are offered a job. If you want to keep your job in the states until you are sure you have a job here, which is after you have passed your CAAC check ride for your licence in the sim. then no problem,each time they will ask you to stay on but just say you have to go back home to get your "No conviction Letter" which will probably be true anyway as seems to take ages as your documents need to verified,translated etc etc.
OK,the process is not hard, the biggest thing is they are very disorganised so you only find out what you are doing day to day at the last minute- be patient, you cannot fight the Chinese system, it is nothing like anywhere else.
The medical you pass or you don't. The Exam for ATP,if you study what Parc gives you is not a problem.It is FAA based. Most of the questions in mine were performance type that is just calculations done in 1-2 mins each. Did not bother with the long flight planning questions of which were 2 and still got 84%. Can sit again if u don't pass it one month later. Sim ride is standard with emphasise on handling skills. If they can do your CAAC straight away then do it. Otherwise if they want you to come back later for CAAC ask for a practice sim session first.
The only reason you will not be offered a job here is if you do not pass your CAAC check and the checker decides if you are allowed a 2nd chance at that or not.
The only other reason is your medical which you do first so you will know that after your CAAC check that you have a job.
Tianjin is not my choice of places to live and many of the other's are of the same mind. It is dirty,polluted and not westernised like Beijing,Shanhai or Shenzen.
Saying that it is cheap and many places to eat and drink that are frequented by westerners
Did I say that Tianjin Airlines is disorganised? It is disorganised,they are learning as they go. They had us at outbases for 10 days at a time, now down to 7, and we are trying to get that down. The outbase hotels are not great, not by western standards.
Currently guys are doing 85+ hrs so are working hard,couple are up to 98hrs. Long days and lots of ATC delays.
The positives are its a job,you get paid and having 3 weeks off every 6 is good for a commute contract or if you want to travel around the region. Definitely choose Parc over Wasinc, one guy was with Parc in Japan with me,changed to Wasinc for this job and regrets it.
Don't get too excited and tone down your expectations or you will be disappointed, it is hard work living and working in China. Come over and have a look but don't leave that job just yet.
Hope this helps

[reach for the sky]

Heading out to Tianjin on the 23rd for A320 captain position. I will reassess the proposition after my visit. Not that I requested information, I would like to thank some of the contributers for some invaluable information. Currently studying for this exam, which is tedious at best and sometimes quite confusing when some of there answers are clearly wrong. Does anyone out there have any further information or top tips for preparing for this exam? Thankyou in advance :ugh:

[BUDDHA170]

I'm heading there for the 23rd screaning!! I'll be leaving on the 21st out of ORD.

[pilotss2001]

If you are flying the Ejet in your home country as a captain you should think long and hard before you come here. Ground your swirling money dreams to reality.

You will make more money but you will damage your body and your family's bodies. You will take years off your life. Take a look at the US Embassy's pollution index. Then take a look at the daily and yearly averages. Beijing and Tianjin are almost the same with Tianjin being worse. Anyone who is thinking of bringing their children here should have the children taken into protective custody. You might as well start them on arsenic.

You will get sick many times here. The food is not good quality. Their bodies are used to it. I was running on the outskirts of the city and saw industrial waste dumping next to farming fields. Vegetables need washing with soap and water and you can never drink the water here. You can never eat a salad here because they wash it with tap water. There are fishkills in the river and people still swim and eat the fish. This is their reality. DO NOT EAT river fish in China. Heavy metals and many man made chemicals cannot be extracted by the standard filters. Kids poop in the street ten meters from a toilet and even in stores. People spit even indoors. People constantly but in front of you and there is no such thing as a line. There are no manners in mainland China. There are only a few Chinese who have not left China with society pleasantries. China is a smoker's paradise as almost all males smoke. EVEN IN THE COCKPIT.

The Chinese are people. Some good and some bad but they are emerging from the Asian equivalent of the Dark Ages into the modern world in less than a generation. This causes mass chaos. Their culture is vastly different. Their social norms very different. At one point in Western culture we threw our crap water into the street.

They are trying. They really are. But they have constraints too within Chinese culture and their company. They just have never lived outside China. To put this mentality into perspective and friend of mine is a teacher. She told her class that in the US when it doesn't rain, it is blue sky. They asked, how is that possible. The just don't know what the outside world is like. They don't know ordered society. They don't understand why we complain about some fecal matter behind the toilet at the overnight hotel. It is the best they can do with the restrictions given to them. One mop without a bucket will be used to clean a whole floor. One rag with a little water will be used to clean a whole room. They have a different comfort level with dirt and bacteria and their bodies accept it. To them we are just picky. To them this is normal.

Do not base your decision to come here on Hong Kong, a holiday in Beijing, Shanghai, or Shenzhen. These are a different worlds then real mainland China. Refunds for company expenses can take months. Fines happen for exceeding company standards. Other companies in China that have experience with Westerners have a much higher retention rate. A person from Hong Kong has modern culture. Mainland is not there yet.

Your job here is to watch your behind constantly. Fly as much as they want and get out when you can. No one stays here on days off. No one. And when you return you will most likely get sick adjusting to the bacteria and living conditions again and depression which also hits your immune system.

You will be sent to Sanya for your simulator evaluation and it is a nice place, good weather, and one of the lowest pollution indexes in China. Then you will return and do a medical. This will be an eye opener. It is very thorough and the "hospital" is something to experience. You can search my posts for a detailed description.

I ordered some new hepa filter masks from Amazon yesterday. On the bottom part of the page there are suggestions from Amazon that state: "Other people who have bought this product have also bought = How to learn Mandarin Chinese." Enough Said. You will have to have most things sent to you by a friend or family member since most companies, including Amazon, cannot deliver in China. Even the Chinese people think Tianjin and Xi'An are very polluted.

This post is not to scare you but educate you. It is easy to sit by your computer and look at the advertisements and glorify the money you will make and the time off you will have. You will have a completely new set of problems then you have now with no way to return and stuck here in China. In China, the company holds your license, not you. While you can shift jobs around the world easily, here in China you have to ask the company for your license and most of the time it is not given. It can happen that you get your license but if you leave abruptly or bad mouth your company you will never work in China again.

If you have the time off come and check it out and see for yourself. BUT do not commit yourself or paint yourself into a corner until you have seen and experienced Tianjin. This post will prepare you not for your success but your survival in Tianjin.

[JotaJota]

VERY well said!!!

I just finished 2.5 years with another HNA airline and it's pretty much the same!!!

Go fly, make some $$$, and LEAVE!

[BUDDHA170]

thx for thr replyed!!! thats my plan do 2 to 4 years and go!!

[pilotss2001]

More information on Tianjin to help with your career decisions.

Currently:

Flying around 85 hours a month. If your holidays fall in one month you will have two weeks off, two weeks working. You still fly 85 hours. Duty days with a three pilot crew routinely are 12+ hour days. You always have a third pilot in the jumpseat. And yes that is one crowded cockpit. Chinese pilots here fly about 900 hours a year average. But its fun to watch the f/o input things or change radio freqs into the FMS while the jumpseater is still trying to verify the flightplan and they fight over the FMS. Both f/o's are assigned duties. One is radio op and one is PNF. You as captain fly ALL legs and can hand off only in cruise. The schedulers are under orders and pressure to get 80 hours flying from you no matter what the case. You must constantly keep a record of your times because they WILL get you violated for overflying. Block times are impossible on some routed but that is what is needed to get you to fly under 8 hours for the day.

Almost all trips are day trips....BUT you are in TDY on outbases. You will be staying in a very dirty Chinese hotel and in some places like Xi'An there is nothing by the airport and a taxi is 120 RMB to the city center. Guys are staying a total of 14 days out stationed a month, meaning two 7 day periods in a dirty hotel. When I say dirty I mean third world dirty and not those nice Shangri-La's in Shanghai. The company is limited a certain amount for the hotel and even in Hong Kong they are not allowed over this limit. Do a search in Hong Kong and see what 55 US gets you. Then you may get two days off so you need to deadhead back to Tianjin. But you may or may not deadhead on the day you work. You deadhead on your day off. In by 3pm out by 3pm the next day. 24 hour rest period and really no day off and not enough time to do your laundry. The contract and company may say you are Tianjin based but you are continually out-based. This is a big problem now.

The company does not view deadheading, company meetings, and ground training as a "work day".

As always, your interview hotels are not an indicator of what you will get once online. The Xindu hotel in Tianjin is relatively clean. Did I mention some hotels don't have hot water in the morning? Don't worry you won't want to shower because the showers are rinsed clean only. You will see all sorts of fun colours from black mold to pretty pink and purple mildew colours. Rainbow colours in the morning with cold water. Its like Lucky Charms without the milk. Buy a nice pair of Croc's or don't bother taking a shower. The only pilots I have encountered who were happy here with the cleanliness were the ones coming from Bangladesh and India.

You will use Jep charts but they are not complete as they do not contain many of the departures or local operations information. Some of the Jep minimums are not even correct as the Chinese plates have lower altitudes. Your notams are mostly Chinese and you must rely and trust on your first officers to translate everything for you. You will fly some IOE flights into Chinese airports with no English speakers and everyone speaking Chinese. You are an incapacitated pilot barreling down an ILS. Normal line ops only operate to English speaking airports. Most OJT crew smoke in the cockpit and if you are a smoker you will be "permitted" to smoke in the cockpit. If you have ever flown up front near the cockpit on a Chinese airline you understand this. :confused:
There are many local procedures in Chinese airports and Tianjin first officers have them committed to memory. You must ask and hope you have a good f/o.

I went with one of my fellow pilots to pick up his new uniform. The storage facility had flooded the a few weeks prior due to a typhoon. There was no capability of drying out all the materials so they were stacked and sitting wet for weeks. I sat and laughed as my friend was handed shoes that were carpeted inside and out with yellow mold. A jacket and pants that had stains from mold discoloured the black into a two tone colour. As he tried on his uniform it did not fit at all with the crotch of the pants somewhere near his knee caps. He took one shirt and one pants only and told them he would buy his uniform. The airline is confused because they are giving you free, stained, moldy, unfitting uniforms and you are complaining? You are starting to get an idea of their thinking patterns.

Some contracts have international passes and jump-seats written into the contract within the Hainan group. The company is not honouring this agreement.

I talked with a contractor about Hainan group and was told arbitration has been successful against Hainan and although a judgement was made against Hainan there was no payout by the company made. Tianjin Airlines is Hainan Group.

The organization is non-existent. The company will ask you to attend a meeting in Tianjin while you are getting ready to get into a simulator in Sanya....on the same day. Everything is last second. There seems to be no outline in their training. People are online without work visas. One pilot took his ICAO English test several months after he was online. The day before the test he was asked to attend a meeting on the same day in a different city. The company's departments have no communication or interaction.

Holidays
6/3 holidays are being split up by "company policy". You cannot take more than 2 weeks in one month. If you took 3 in one month then the next month you would have average time off, but they want all of you so 2 weeks in one month and your 7 day holiday in the next month. They seem to be liberal with allowing you to split your holidays up. IE taking two weeks at the beginning of this month and 1 week at the start of the next month. But this is not company policy and not contract policy so if it changes when you arrive I wash my hands clean of it.

How do you survive?
If you put your head down, work hard, and get out every chance you get you can keep your sanity. This contract would be best suited with people who have some third world country experience and are not afraid to stay in hostels.
The Chinese people can be very friendly and management is trying to dangle the carrot as best they can. I cannot stress how much they need pilots and the rate of pilots screening to the ratio of returning is not good. This is a work in progress and you must understand Chinese mentality and business negotiation to effectively defend the contract and make any headway. If you are a hard charging person without finesse you will get nowhere or maybe even a ticket home.

Where are they hiring?
Currently hiring in Tianjin for E145 and E190 but have been asking pilots if they would like to relocate to Xi'An. They have too many foreign pilots in Tianjin and not enough lines of flying here for foreigners. The CAAC and military restrict the routes available to fly by foreigners. (reason for the TDY) Naning has been mentioned as a possible future base. The A320 has not made firm plans yet. As the fleet grows it is possible you will experience out-basing too.

Why are they hiring?
Just remember you are a contract pilot and as soon as you can be replaced you will be replaced. This is their country and rightfully so their pilots should be flying their planes. Wouldn't you expect the same of your home country? As with most of Asia they have a very long time for upgrade here and most pilots are looking at 8 - 9 years for first upgrade. This is coupled with explosive growth is causing their shortage of captains. As soon as they catch up you are out so think twice about that seniority number you are giving up.

Your life will completely change when you arrive in China. Lemons or Lemonade? Know yourself and your family before you choose.

Good Luck out there.

[reach for the sky]

That was a great read. Very informative and useful. Just waiting to be called forward for the A320 CAAC check ride. They appear to be very disorganised and tediously slow. Hope to eventually make it out there, but not too sure if this will ever happen?

[USMCProbe]

The Tianjin 320'S aren't even "set in stone" yet, despite taking delivery of their first one last week. There are 6 Chinese captains qualified as "new captains", which means they are still flying for 3 months with other captains (me) at BCA. Our jumpseaters at BCA are Tianjin FO's about half of the time for the same reason.

I think the Hainan group and BCA are still hoping things will settle out with the CAAC and they get to expand again. If that happens, the Tianjin 320's may well end up at Capitol. If not, maybe i will end up flying for Tianjin.

What pilots2001 said is very true for most Chinese airlines. For good and bad. At Capitol the FO's get to fly as well with us, but several other airlines only foreign captains are PF.

I have 8 months left on my contract. If things are still working out maybe I will stay. But I would never choose to come here knowing what I know now.

From the time you show up for work, to the time you get off the aircraft, you are treated better than you will be treated anywhere. I believe that is the same at all chinese airlines as that is their "culture". They treat foreign guests very well.

But everything else pilot2001 said - EVERYTHING ELSE - is spot on.

And he didn't mention failing the medical for some made up reason, or any of the other fates that may befall you here, with none of it being your fault, or you having the ability to stop it.

[pilotss2001]

Recently a pilot meeting was held and many of our concerns were discussed. One pilot had resigned and 3 others were ready to resign if immediate action was not taken to improve the conditions and follow the contract.

This is Chinese business. They will follow the contract only if they must and are encouraged to do so. Contracts in China are negotiable. This is their culture. There are many many many books on this subject. For the Taiwanese, Hong Kong, and Shanghai people of course this does not apply to you. It is not an East/West perspective. It is a Chinese/International business model perspective.

Hotel conditions are terrible. The worst hotel you have stayed in you airline career wlll be the best hotel we have. This was made as a sharp point and the company promised better hotels for us.

Most importantly is out basing. Out basing is occurring against our contract of up to 14 days in a hotel in an out based city. The contract clearly specified Tianjin or Xi'an basing. Upon threatening of resignations the company instantly changed its policy to 2 or 3 day trips for the foreigners.

There are many things that need to be changed and if they intend to hire the 30-40 foreigners we have told them what they need to do hire and keep the pilots. They have the information.

As for the contractors I can highly recommend PARC.
There is only one representative at these pilot meetings from the contractors and that is PARC. There are many many agencies offering this contract but I cannot stress that even other pilots thanked our agency for sending Misty Fu, our PARC rep, to smooth things over with the company.

We have two reps that help us with daily life things to contract issues. They are invaluable.

There is still no official plan on the A320s. I have no idea on what the plan is. And like USMC stated before I don't think Tianjin does either. There is a lan to get the A330 and there is even an A330 model sitting in one of the pilot rooms, but as I said before, nothing, even if in contract, is set in stone. Everything is negotiable in China. Everything.

We have too many foreign pilots in Tianjin. We still need more foreign pilots.
This means you will be based elsewhere in the system if you are hired from this point on. You may in the future be based in Tianjin as the routes grow but for now it appears as if all new pilots are heading to Xi'an. It is a smaller city and was the base for Keunpeng before the crashes. The city is very polluted but has some mountains surrounding it. The airport is a good distance from the city center.

Tianjin is thinking of opening other bases too to foreigners but this depends on many variables. In China, until it happens don't believe it.

Good luck on the recruiting drive. Remember the initial hospitals are filthy. The CAAC E145 checkers are bastards and have a huge fail rate. The pilots for Tianjin are good people. The ones I have encountered are like pilots everywhere in the world. I've met some very sharp instructors here.

Your process is:

1. Initial Eval Sim

2. Acquire Chinese visa

4. CAAC Medical Check and Company Medical

5. CAAC Written

6. CAAC sim Check

7. CAAC ICAO English

8. Visa Medical

9. Ground Training 7 days

10. Evac training

11. 3 Day Sim Training

12. Work Visa Application.

During all of this you will have to run to HKG monthly to renew your visitor visa until all the work on your work visa is done. This will take at least 2 or 3 and sometimes even 4 months. Your crew badge takes 2-4 weeks to process and this cannot be done until after you pass the CAAC sim check. Your work visa cannot be processed until you have passed all the CAAC checks.

The company provides a hotel for up to 30 days until after you arrive in Tianjin. This means that before you are finished with the training process that you will have to secure some kind of residence here in Tianjin. There is a 5% police tax on the amount of your rent you must pay every month. This is outside of contract obligations.

Many crew members have sat 3 months before starting OJT/IOE. It wlll be a long three months as Tianjin does not have much of a night life or interesting things to do. You have to make things happen here. If you have the cash the company does not care where you go to reset your visa. A trip through SE Asia will get your head back in the game.

[JotaJota]

All sounds pretty close to my exp...

TIC = This is China!

Be patient, and willing to 'understand' the way they 'think'!!! If some do!

[fabjet2]

Hi guys,

There are some new contracts in the States for Tianjin that give E145 driver a transition course to the E190 immediately, without finishing a 145 contract.
They are also saying that after 3 Years on the 190 you can transition to the A320 if you sign another 4 years.
Did you guys in China heard of that?
COntract providers: PARC, WASINC, VOR HOLDINGS

Thks.

[JotaJota]

Promises mean NOTHING in China! Tianjin might never fly one 320 as they are Capital's...

Stay away from WASinc and VOR!

GL

[USMCProbe]

I did talk to one expat flying the Tianjin 145 that was just starting 190 school, but is not rated yet. These airlines are all run by guys that were cadets 7 years ago, and have no experience other than that, in life. The job, from when you show up to work, till the time you leave is great, but they are a bunch of schoolkids trying to run airlines.

These upgrades are new, and not approved by the CAAC. AFTER somebody upgrades, then we will talk. But until then, it is just a promise, a carrot held in front of you, to come here. HNA is offering a 330 CCQ upgrade for 320 guys, but it is not approved by anybody. HNA usually requires 300+ hours of line training for fully RATED pilots, god knows what they would require for non rated types.

My job at Capital the last 5 months rocks. The first year was a nightmare. I was "outbased" in Kunming, 4 days on 2 days off. 0600 show time to 0200 return, after midnight on the 4th day. There were 3 of us doing that, I am the only one left. The other two are gone, for the same reasons stated above.

Right now my job here is working out great. The first year sucked. It can change back tomorrow and I cannot change that, although the same exists at any airline, anywhere. BUT, the bad here is worse.

Would I come here again, or recommend it? Only if I had a job that I could go back to.

[pilotss2001]

Hi Jota!

I second you comments!

Black and white ink means nothing in mainland China and spoken word expires the second it leaves someone mouth.

The A320s are not a done deal here. Even IF they are flying for Tianjin there is no guarantee that Tianjin would keep them. There are politics involved here in the distribution of aircraft by Hainan Group and the Chinese government.

And listen to the experienced contractors. PARC is the way to go.

All the pilots here on other agencies are regretting not going with PARC.

Is PARC 100% the best it could be?...Maybe not but its the best out of the bunch.

VOR Holdings.....Avoid !!!!!!

[A-3TWENTY]

I support all pilot2001 words.

There is another good broker .GPS. Theree are a lot of pilots happy with them.

Avoid Brookfield also.

A320

[ed75020]

Hi A-3TWENTY What are your complains against Brookfield Aviation? Did you work for them ? Are far are you in the recruitment process with Tianjin?
Safe landing.

[Labomba]

Did my medical for TJA some 2 months ago, and am today still waiting for the sim assessment.
What about the other guys who were also there end of Sept. Any news?

[USMCProbe]

They have one 320 and but they are not flying it yet. I believe it is still getting an interior installed.

[USMCProbe]

I stand corrected. Just had a Tianjin jumpseater and he said they have flown it "a few times".

[CRJusa]

The E190 contract just got a significant pay raise, FYI.

[dogtired]

What is significant?

[USMCProbe]

Our FO's (BCA) said that Chinese Embraer RJ guys are making more than almost every other aircraft type in China. There are very few of them, and everybody wants to fly something bigger. Good place for an underpaid European or N.A. commuter pilot. That is more than double the take home pay of most regional captains in the US, and Chinese tax is paid. In US tax law, you own nothing, or almost nothing back home as Chinese tax is slightly higher than US tax.

[CRJusa]

$190k + overtime for E170/E190 rated PICs.

[Dream Land]

The first thing you need to understand when working on a Chinese contract is: don't believe everything they tell you, although I have had several friends go to work there, none have received the salary as advertised.

[work to live]

Actually at Tianjin we have received exactly what was advertised so no reason to think these pay rises will be any different.

[Avpilot]

When does the pay start? Upon passing of the CAAC Written, sim, before that?

Tim

[USMCProbe]

Dream Land;
Thanks DL, I guess you don't consider me one of your friends anymore, LOL

So far, and I say that with a grain of salt, we have all received all of our money and bonuses at the airline I work for, and have heard the same about Tianjin, so far. If the economy turns sour, all bets are off. Same same in the "real world". 30,000 legacy airline pilots in the US have lost their pensions and 40 percent of their "promised" pay in the last 10 years, me included. 10,000 more soon to follow this year with the bankruptcy of AMR.

When does the pay start? I believe Tianjin is the same as my airline, which is you get partial pay until you pass your line check, but your pay starts the day you "register" with the airline, which should be within a day or a few days of arriving.

Good luck

[pilotss2001]

4) Checklist
The main function of checklist is to check possible mistakes.
For normal operation, checklist is not to be used for checking a lot of mistakes, but the mistakes found by checklist are normally can be easily found by other ways. Checklist is especially used for checking the missed mistakes in the normal operation and monitoring (including individual and team). That is, checklist can find the missed mistakes even you are focusing on monitoring.
The regulation of using checklist is the valuable experience of what had happened before with high cost and scientific treasures summarized from the bloody accident.

[lovedontcome4free]

what do you pay for rent? how do you get paid? direct deposit? What about banks? looking for any info? thanks

[txflyer83]

hey everyone. I along with some other colleagues from the US are interviewing in St. Louis with Tianjin from the PARC recruiters. We are going for the 190 transition from the 145. The information has been great but just had a few questions from some current Tianjin guys....

Are you locked into the contracts for three years or can you terminate prior? Any insight into the initial screening simulator session? Any guys from the states have any insight on how the taxes were handled from the US standpoint?

[USMCProbe]

I work for the sister airline for Tianjin, but not Tianjin itself.

1. Parc is good. Work for no other.
2. Study your #$@% off for the sim. You will have multiple emergencies simulating missile strikes. They want to see if you can get it on the ground.

3. If they are like my airline, they give you a Chinese tax certificate. Pmail me for details. You should owe no tax in the US, legally.

4. Any other questions, please pmail me.

It is a great gig for a Rj guy from the states, or anywhere else.

[Fareastdriver]

they give you a Chinese tax certificate

Brilliant piece of paper. Completely indecipherable outside of China so you can tell your revenue man exactly what you like.

[pilotss2001]

Tianjin Rent - 2 bedroom will cost about 1100USD/month. 1 Month deposit, a building service fee or elevator fee as the locals call it, and rent is paid in increments of 3, 4, 6, or 12 months. Agencies are used but English is not widely spoken. The contracts will be in Chinese so you must provide your own translator. There is a 5%/monthly rent police tax that must be paid.

Direct deposit is available and used by the company. ICBC is used and you will get a debit card that works everywhere.

The amount transferable outside China was believed limited yearly but friends in Shanghai are telling me if you go to the bank with your pay statement you can transfer money based on your income. I have heard the transfer is relatively cheap. You could set up an account in Honk Kong too during a visa run.

Utilities are prepaid. You will get a card and put credit it and insert it into the meters for your unit. Mobile phones are prepaid too as well as your internet.
Electronic banking is prevalent. Utilities are cheap in China.

I use Baloun & Company, LLC (http://www.balounandcompany.com) . Contact Jim Hill for CPA. He can work over your taxes. Pro Diem is a good site that will maximize your per diem into charted and table for for your CPA.

You are required to pay taxes after approx 92k if you have worked outside of the US and passed the bona fide overseas IRS tests. It mainly states you are working outside the US and staying outside the US for approx 330 days of the year and your income is from overseas. You can use the Chinese taxes, paid by the company, against your taxes in the US. The trick is you can use either the overseas deduction or the taxes paid overseas. Most likely the taxes paid overseas will be more so you will probably pay nothing.

The social security tax due is dependent on your contract if you are an independent contractor or employee. SS tax is approx 15%

State taxes depend on each States rules but if you make any rent from a house then you most likely will need to pay State taxes.

Before you come out here consult a CPA. Understand your liabilities especially if you intend to commute. That 2 week holiday in Hawaii combined with a 2 week Xmas stint may take some tax money out of your pocket.

The contracts now are written with 3 month notices. This means you or the company can terminate with a 3 month notice. If you terminate prior to this then there is 4K penalty.

USMCProbe hits it on the head for the simulator. It is done in a 1980s style.
You'll want to brief and they will want to take off immediately. There is no warm up time and you may get the V1 cut on the first take off with a recovery then a wind shear followed by a TCAS then engine fire on vectors with an electrical failure. Multiples are common here. Stick handling is the most important to them. You are lucky. You will most likely have another English speaker in your seat. I had a 0 hour F/O who never flew a jet and could barely speak English. (This will be your sim training so get used to it) When you hit the line the pilots you are assigned will speak more English. (I didn't say good just more)

Most pass the initial sim and eval by the company. DON'T give up that seniority number just yet. This is very important because once you come to China you must do a CAAC check. This is the one that most people fail. The smallest things can set off the inspector. What they think is important does not jive with ours. And there are some rules that are not published in English. Part of it is just luck but here even more so because you didn't know you had to query even during vectors a descent below the MSA.

The ATP written is luck too. It is completely random and there is a fair bit of info already on the boards. People are allowed to take the test again if they fail and it does happen. The hardest part is the section on the history of ICAO and Chinese regulation and Chinese agency names. You may have one question on these or 20.

The medical is what kills another large portion of the people. Again, search the boards here and you will find plenty of info.

If you are a lazy pilot you could be so comfy here but you will never be able to work outside China. Keep your gaurd up. Fly the SOP. You will either return home a wreck or a damn fine pilot.

[USMCProbe]

As far as bank transfers, just choose an agent that transfers your money to a foreign bank, in US dollars. If they will only transfer your contract fee to a Chinese bank, in RMB, you chose the wrong agent. Only scum fly-by-night Chinese contract agents would require that you accept payment in RMB, into a Chinese bank.

I highly recommend Parc.

Problem solved.

[pilotss2001]

One question that is repeatedly asked is "What is the expense of China?"

Assuming you live a standard international life style: It is almost expensive or if you are planning Shanghai or Hong Kong - damn expensive.

Firstly, most people have an opinion that China is cheap. And it is. Its a home to cheap labor and cheap materials. If you intend to live like a Chinese farmer then yes you can live on 2 dollars a day.

There is a rapidly growing middle class and wealthy class. Imported and foreign items are taxed heavily even if they are produced in China. Luxury items are also taxed heavily. X3 or X4 the price you might see overseas.

Western restaurants have most of their food imported and take special care of their food for their clientele. $30-35 USD for one person dinner easily. There are second tier places that use the local food and then the college places where even now after several months it passes through me like a locomotive.

There is only one international clinic in the city and the contracting agencies' insurance are not qualified to use it. $3500/year for English speaking international doctors. UPDATE: A second international clinic is opening and from what I understand it will have a pay as you go option.

There are grocery stores like Walmart and Carrefour here but the quality and source of their food is terrible. You will use an international chain like Lotte, Hisense, or Schwartzkopff. These stores have imported food but you will pay the same or oven double the prices of your home country. (Its better than heaving or worse yet getting a funny growth in your liver 10 years later. Even the Chinese who can afford it import their food) You could even shop at the wet markets and get the cheapest prices. I don't know enough about where their food comes from to take that leap. There isn't a strong Food and Drug Administration here.

International Schools are wide ranging in prices. This depends on your tastes but international schools can be same priced or overpriced but never under priced from you current location.

Housing is comparable to a standard international city. If you want cheap you can get a cheap place with all sorts of smells.

I find Utilities are cheaper and service oriented labor cheap. A maid is very cheap but you will have to train them how to clean.

Given the salaries offered here you will make more than you could at home and you will be spending more than you would at home but you will have more in your pocket at the end of the month.

Do not expect to live here on 1000 USD/month.

[cameltoad]

To all that may be thinking of coming to China this is a fantastic post. I was in China for two years and this is absolutely dead on. I was lucky enough to be based in one of the more modern cities (Shenzhen) but it's still a different world. Everything from the hotels, food, etc. is true.
In my own experience I constantly was worried about my job. I am very experienced in the A-320 flying it for a US major and I flew it in the Middle East, but I have seen FIRST HAND guys flying a perfectly acceptable ride and getting a turn down for some incomprehensible reason,,,not to mention their own guys can't fly to that standard or as in my own personal case once of being asked to do a maneuver, flying it, and then being told no good because the examiner has his own pet way of doing it and shame on you for not knowing it. Captain, didn't you know to run around on your days off grilling every Chinese pilot you could find to ask how examiner so-and-so likes for you to do dual Radar Alt. inop approaches? How lazy of you!
In my own case it was the medical that did me in, although nothing could be found wrong, by Chinese standards I was just too tall and Fat for them to be comfortable with and on my fourth medical, even though I passed it, one of the 10 doctors that looks at you every 6 months wanted to run a camera into my damn heart just to prove I was perfect and I said no.
I could go on about endless examples that I witnessed first hand, and trust me now that I am back in the states making a FIFTH of what I made there it is hard, but the double standard coupled with the standard of living is one hard nut to crack. I talk to guys, Capt. even at my airline who are thinking of resigning their number to go. I simply cannot stress how bad of a decision this would be. Unless you can get a leave, or you don't have a job. Don't Do It! :=

[JotaJota]

Both posts, RIGHT on the $$$...

Great info.... Been there, done that... From a legacy driver that did the GREAT China experience. :eek:

[USMCProbe]

I cannot agree with this more, and it is exactly in line with what I always say. If you are very lucky, China may work out for you. But I only recommend coming here if you have another job to return to, on short notice.

Contract pilot rule to live by:

If the pay is high, it is because no one wants to come here. For cause.

If it is a commuting contract, it is because no one wants to live here, or at least their wives don't.

My China job is currently working out great. And I just got paid. And my personal "event horizon" is next payday..........

[pilotss2001]

The change is happening slowly.

After a few resignations the company is changing.

The trips are now 2-3 day trips with one day trip smatterings. The hotels are still very dirty but better than before. We are still working on this point.

The OPS manuals are being re written into readable English and to use live document updates.

The OJT pilots are working to international standards. It is in the interest of the airline to do so because in the next year we will start flying international flights. Cases like activating the FMS before another pilot has confirmed it are changing.

Expats are working on documentation for initial ground. This will help you see documents like the logbook and load sheet before you sit in the cockpit. (really simple things like this are not thought of here)

The company needs pilots. There are no less than 5 aircraft sitting on the ramp at all times with covers on the engines. Chinese pilots are timing out at 1000 hours a year in December. If you fly maxed hours you will gain weight as the crew meals are the largest I have ever seen.

The A320 has arrived and is flying. 5 are slated for delivery but the markets are undecided.

E145 pilots on property with over 700 hours are upgrading in China. Simulator training is in Sanya with Swiss Training personnel.

Interviews in the United States are being handled as an all in one session. CAAC doctors, examiners, and airline staff are all present to give thumbs up or thumbs down on the spot. No more waiting or having to give up your seniority number for the chance to come to China. The process is less than a 50% pass rate for the flying skills and then add the medical process and you have about a 40% success rate. Add on top of that the ability to live in China and learn a new style of flying and culture and you are looking at a 25-30% success rate. If you can make it here the first six months then you should be able to make it for the contract.

There are still many things that will blow your mind about flying in China. There is still the difficulty of living in China.

There is a forward progress that is happening slowly.

A new international medical facility has opened in Tianjin that does not require membership.

Maybe things are improving or maybe I'm getting used to seeing people spit all around me. Could be both.

[rollingscissors]

Another case of big money with plenty of health and career risks. Too many morons and dirty air for me unless they double the pay.

[Hudini]

Great info guys. Who knew the women could spit so well? I never understood the whole 'take your shoes off at the door' until now.

Although I'm with Spring in Shanghai I can tell you the CAAC sim check is the same here as up there. Dual failures and raw data. Fun times.

Parc is my rep also and I cannot say enough good things about them.

Good luck to everyone in the new year. We need it.

[Avpilot]

Hypothetically speaking, how would it go over if I were to politely request that my copilots do not smoke in the cockpit? Would that be respected, or would it give me a bad reputation and a hard time later on as a result? Thanks.

Tim

[de facto]

I have had nooooo problem on that issue.

Of course if you let them smoke while you take a 10 minute break in the back(physiological needs) then they will be even more grateful to you :)

[USMCProbe]

Concur highly. BTW most of them are extremely polite, courteous, and respectful. There is always a "bottom 10%". But there is a "bottom 10%" everywhere.

[de facto]

..hence the need to apply CRM like anywhere else when of the 10% shows up.
In all fos ive had so far, 2 or 3 i can consider difficult cases but more than manageable as long as you take your time to explain the things you do if not understood by him.
Flying is the easy part,after work is the harder one.

[Vallesan]

Hi everyone and thank for reading.

I'm a mexican pilot, i have no experience in an airline I'm a corporate pilot here in Mexico, I'm a lineage 100 (E-190) captain and interested in Apply for a position in Tianjin airlines, I spend some time reading your posts wondering if it's worth living with the family there or if it's better flying back home every 42 days and if you guys receive airline tickets to do so.

Thank's again, my very best wishes to all of you and happy landings.

[pilotss2001]

I was doing OK lately because they have only been assigning me the most SOP pilots.

Good for them. They know I fly standard. But let me tell you of my history. I am not the most standard guy on property. I would never and could never be a Line Check Airmen. I do not possess the intelligence or the insight to teach, judge, and command at the same time. So when I am the most standard guy on property, there is a huge problem.

Today I witnessed the Chief pilot try to coerce a pilot to fly against the MEL. This was the last straw. This is not a cheap 135 outfit. This is flying a jet engine with 100 passengers on your plane. I was trying to be culturally correct and try to explain gently for 30 minutes to the chief that flying against the MEL is no good. I talked to the other pilot and he told me the passenger were taking pictures of the plane with the oxygen masks that had deployed in first class. Yet the Chief Pilot says but no performance has been degraded so maybe it is OK.

A few days ago they tried to put a cabin attendant in the bathroom and for takeoff and landing because the cabin was full. Every once and a while will try to send you to a Chinese only speaking military airport with only Chinese charts you cannot read. Chinese Resource Management.

This is why I tell pilot its nice if you have 500 hours PIC on the EMB 190 and you come here good for you . They will most likely hire you but if you have not defined yourself as a captain or a pilot before you come here you will never fly anywhere outside of China afterwards if this is your primary training as a captain. You will be a ruined piece of tissue paper on the floor. No one will use you again.

If you are intimidated in an interview or by a chief pilot you don't have the backbone to work this contract. Daily you must defend the safety of flight and rules of the flight.

Don't get me wrong, there are some hot pilots here and within the Chinese system they can fly beautifully. But as an internationally standard pilot this place is a black hole. There are some military pilots here that I would hate to fly against hand flying because they would blow me away. But in an airline it is more than just hand skills.

China Airlines has just been blasted by the CAAC for irregularities. Irregularities that would shut a normal International airline. Air China is China's flag carrier. Is it normal that you must ask again and again for an English copy of the CCARs(FARs). There is yet to be produced to any Chinese airline a copy of the actual rules of flying in English.

The answer to this and many other airlines in China is...Well, this is China.
(yes we finally received the version 4 of the CCARS after almost a year of asking. Many things are the same but many things we are trying to track down what is different.

[Avpilot]

How much should I train for the treadmill part of the medical check? I'm not overweight, but not a runner either. Thanks in advance.

Tim

[Siu Mo To]

The English version of CCAR Part 121 is available on the CAAC website. However, I could not find an english version of Part 91. That said, CCAR Part 91 is almost identical to FAR Part 91. One major difference is that China have no airspace classification like the US - no class A, B, C, D, E, G.

[pilotss2001]

SMT -

Can you send the link from the CAAC website. I've looked through the English CAAC website and cannot find the listing. The Site Map function of the English side also does not work.
Cheers and thanks

There are plenty of guys who were out of shape that got the job. In most cases there is something they the CAAC doctors will want to look into a little closer. The fail rate of the medical is high. There are some things you can retest for if you don't make the baseline criteria. Some people have blood drawn three days in a row and some do a more intensive check of their nasal cavities and other even have to where a heart monitor for 24 hours.

[eddie shoestring]

Before you sign on the dotted line, have a read of the following CAAC rules about to come into effect on March 1st.

Simply put:

1) Get struck by lightning - you're fired.
2) Strike a bird - you're fired
3) loose comms - you're fired
4) Bust an altitude - you're fired

There are a few more, but these are the most worrying ones.
Not sure if you guys at other airlines have already had this CAAC speech, but we were told this last week at SZX.

Simply put, there is no job security here (in China) anymore...
Evidently, from the recent management “safety” meeting, the foreign pilot group make 3 to 4 times as many mistakes as the Chinese……give me a break. :ugh::ugh:

Good luck out there.

ED

[HPIC]

Looks like Tianjin is getting more desperate. I received this email this morning. Note the new 4 week on/4 week off option. Wonder what the pay will be for that one?

Still dangling the A320 carrot....along with a larger carrot for the A330. :rolleyes:


Dear EMB190 Captains,

Earn up to $15,000 USD/month + overtime based on 80 hours per month.* Earn an additional $187.50 USD per every hour flown over 80 hours.** VOR Holdings will also pay you $8,000 USD at the end of your 1st year, $12,000 USD at the end of your 2nd year, and $15,000 USD at the end of your 3rd year.*

Your total compensation for three years is $575,000 USD.** After completing your three year contract, you will be given the opportunity to upgrade to the A320 aircraft at the airline's expense and then from the A320 to the A330 also at the airline's expense.

You have the option of working:

4 weeks ON, 4 weeks OFF
6 weeks ON, 3 weeks OFF
6 weeks ON, 2 weeks OFF + 24 additional days OFF per year

Interviews will be held in Orlando, Florida during the first week of March 2012.

If you are interested, send us an email to [email protected] or simply reply to this email.

Sincerely,

Peggy Li
Manager of Recruiting
Pilot Jobs in China - VOR Holdings (http://www.vorholdings.com)

[JotaJota]

VOR Holdings, HUGE carrots swinging, plus 1099 = A no no!!! :=

[primetimepilot]

VOR/PARC or WASINC in Miami?

Anyone attend these screenings? Info? :cool:

Details on the 4week on 4week off rotation that just popped up with VOR?

[pilotss2001]

For those of you that don't understand the consequences of a 1099. Let me warn you.

In most of these contracts the company pays your local taxes. For some countries' citizens as long as you are abroad you pay no taxes. For US citizens you do. And giving you a 1099 makes you official US tax implications affecting your deductions.

Normally you get only two types of deductions. An overseas deduction taken if you live outside the US for 11 months or greater. The other is applying your overseas paid taxes against your US taxes which depending on your country wipes out your US taxes. A 1099 throws a monkey wrench in this game.

[Avpilot]

Care to elaborate?

[goldthop]

Any update to conditions and recommendations for taking the E190 gig at TJA? 4on/4off schedule sounds at least a little tempting.

[USMCProbe]

The best way for Americans to avoid this is don't work for a US based agency. Every party in a contract is going to interpret tax law to their benefit. A US based agency is probably going to claim you are a subcontractor because it is beneficial for them to do so.they will file a 1099 and you will have to pay self-employment tax. In actuality, most countries, including the US, have a "reality test" that legally determines whether you qualify as an employee or subcontractor. This keeps the local McDonald's from calling all their cooks and cashiers sub contractors. It also applies to us as contract pilots.
Best thing to do is just choose a nonUS based agency if you are American.

I don't Use a tax accountant but it might be a good thing to do if you don't understand US tax law for expats. It gets a bit complicated.

[pilotss2001]

Its been a while and there have been several pms to me so I will update.

Currently there are about 30+ Expats at Tianjin in various stages of training and document processing. The company is trying hard to be hospitable and courteous to the pilots. This does not mean that things run smoothly it just means there are no bad intentions. You can stil be fined for QAR violations but this SEEMS to be only after a few violations. Some QARs are finable every time and others are not as important. The CCARs prohibit fining or punishment for QARs so this is a clear idea of what happens and the authority of a pilot in China.

The A320s are arriving and there is some question of how many will arrive. The Chinese government and other airlines have a lot of influence over what flies where and how often. There could actually be a problem of where to fly the new airplanes. Backrooms dealings are everywhere but here in China it is daily business. The new Chinese leader has even made a stinging spotlight to this Chinese culture. If a situation is one sided or unfair it means nothing in China.

The city is growing and cleaning up, but living in China is having one foot in the modern world and one foot 50 years ago. Just when you think everything is shaping up and you are enjoying your morning coffee you will look out your captain's window to see a kid at his mother's urging take a dump on the ramp next to your plane. It doesn't faze me anymore but you will have to get used to it and many other things here in China.

The medicals and checkride continue to be your biggest road block to China. The medicals are becoming increasingly difficult. With partial strokes experienced inflight China has now mandated Carotid Artery sonograms. MRIs are also being added to the list. Getting your medical is difficult but keeping your medical is just as difficult not to mention the false positive testing that has occurred lately. The good part is it is a free medical and you can at least know if something tragic is wrong. However as a friend at Chengdu was recently told he had too much plaque in his heart only to be told he was healthy back in the States. Or another friend in Shanghai who has been told he either has cancer or epilepsy from a brain scan and again told by International doctors that he is completely normal.

Once you get here you have to maintain your medical and that decision is not only up to you but your airline and the CAAC. You really have little control over your future and the relationship of the CAAC and your airline can make the difference. Gifting and "respect" to poorly paid government officials is common business practice in China. You won't do it but your company works the magic on your behalf. How much magic they work is not up to you and again the control of your fate rests with someone else. It becomes very difficult as you age to retain your medical in China. It is very possible and it does happen that people arrive here only to be sent home within six months because of the medical. If you have a good job at home and you have reasonable debts then weigh this carefully in your decisions. You are taking a risk coming here.

There are some upgrades happening from the E145 to the E190 and those are only the pilots who have been here for a few years. No new E145 guys are upgrading yet. No E190 pilots have upgraded to the A320 and there is no plan update for the A330. The A330 is a thought but not reality yet. Remember even if you have a plan, the money, and the equipment to fly in China it does not mean that it jives with the plan of the other airlines and their government allies. Just because Tianjin has all the ambition and resources to have many A320 does not mean it will happen and many things in the decisions are completely out of the control of the management. You don't just apply for routs in China. You have to court your superiors and hope that the other major airlines don't mind you. Its not capitalism or socialism. China is an oligarchy.

We did have a hijacking on the airline it is most likely a target again for revenge. An ethnic minority of 6 people tried a 9/11 style takeover of a plane. The plane had undercover security and people helped over power the hijackers. China is far from a unified country.

Hiring windows in the States:
This will be a big decision for the people now being hired in China. Being at the beginning of a rush in the seniority window in the States can make the difference of a pilot making 40-80K as a first officer or 80-120k as a captain. Or sitting reserve at a base away from home or being a line holder at home in base. Seniority means everything in the States and in China it doesn't mean much.

Shortly in the US there will be almost 1000-2000 captains retiring every year and this is without the next growth cycle. Getting behind those young guys will forever impact your career realizations. There is no crystal ball. You must play the odds of what you know today and what the future is projected to look like.

China is a temp gig and about the time they are catching up here the US will be at the last parts of its boom. Time your arrival with care but time your departure more carefully as you could be left out of the big swing upwards. This will impact you even more because I do not believe in the next 30 years that the retirement age of pilots will remain the same and retirement age will continue to increase.

China realizes this and I expect the salaries will increase here even more than currently advertised. With this in mind I fully expect that in the next contract offer will be the last rise then you will only see moderation of the contract offerings. This next one or two offers will most likely be the peak and in my estimation China starts catching up. The E190 is paying significantly higher than it should and this is purely business. It will change downward faster than it goes up. Don't expect to be here 10 years at this salary rate and with these holidays. The norm is more like 10k per month with a 6/2 contract.

There is discussion of making the holidays a solid schedule instead of a on request basis. There are still many errors and mistakes in the operations and office work of the company. The training is being improved but it is a completely self study course.

The flying is a full schedule. Imagine your two weeks of at the beginning of the month only to return to two weeks of solid flying of about 65 hours. The E190 is transitioning to take some of the E145 routes and some 6 sector days are appearing. The A320 even has some 6 sector days. I expect the E145 to be slowly phased out with the E190 taking its place and the A320 taking the E190 place.

AQP is not fully integrated in China. When that time bomb happens the upgrade times required half. When the F/Os are allowed to land and takeoff and basically fly the airplane without instructors the time will reduce more too. This factor is coming and when I can't even guess. It will happen and the company is pressing hard for this program. When this happens the time length of your money dreams just got cut by 75%.

The company has now confirmed 5 day trips and it is now in the new contract. To help with recruitment we have suggested an option for education. Guys with families here are getting killed for tuition. Maybe more is to come as other contracts are offering education allowances. Education at international schools can take up to half a paycheck with 2 or more children.

Most from my original posts have unchanged and it becomes more a marathon of personal tolerance. There are some things that are still outlandish like fuel spills on the tarmac where the driver doesn't want to move the truck and is cleaning up the spill that is under the plane and truck with paper towels as the fuel spills out faster than he can clean it up. Then they want you to start the plane over the pool of Jet-A. Or the impossible passengers who yell and push the flight attendants because of delays and the non interference policy of the police makes them useless. The passengers will then camp out in your plane for hours hoping for some kind of compensation in the tune of 15USD. Yelling in China is normal. It does not mean a fight its just yelling and they do it all the time. Then there is the who "Face" issue. SOP and CRM is known but not understood. The expats don't help much because when they first arrive they are standard pilots but after about 3 months you stop trying to fight it and fly the Chinese way. (smoke if you gotte'm) You will be pushed to exceed flight hour limits being told no worries we make everything OK.

Make no mistake. China is not paying you all this money for nothing. They have a business need and you are a temporary solution. The money you make will be earned in your flying and non flying duties. There are a lot of situations here outside flying that will not just try your patience but run over it with a truck and then back up over it again and again.

Choose wisely, sit down with your family, talk with your colleagues, and make a decision not based today's money but the whole picture.

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

The best post on China on Pprune.

Pprune Gold.

[JotaJota]

Excellent post... Very close to what I experienced while flying there...

[volare_737]

Except the Medical and Flight testing it sounds like just another day in Africa, just with more money. So it all depends where you coming from.
About the medical, well, one can look after oneself with issues like weight, blood pressure and so on. I am just a bit worried about hearing and eye tests.
As one gets older those things deteriorate and there is not much one can do about that !!!
How strict are they on those?

[pilotss2001]

Preflight preparation via E-net must be completed within the
required time (12-48 hours before flight), earlier preparation is
allowed for those who have successive flights. One month salary will
be fined for those who did not perform net preparation and failed in
examination (except for the net problem or backup pilots) according to Flight Department Management Manual; for CAAC inspector
representative, CAAC should be reported and it is suggested to
remove the title of CAAC inspector representative; for pilot manager,
the manager post would be relieved immediately.

And this is during the good times. You can imagine what will happen when they want to start getting rid of people.

[Toastal]

Please please could someone PM me if they are currently an expat 190 Captain on either a 6/3 wk or month on/off commuting contract at Tianjin. I have been through sceening etc and need some advice. Many thanks in advance,

T:suspect:

[Toastal]

Can somebody pleeeease pm me if they are a current E-190 skipper at Tianjin on any roster pattern. I have a seleciton pending and don't want to make any 'life mistakes'

Helps guys

T:suspect:

[pilotss2001]

Hello Peoples,

The newest contract is out for Tianjin and more information about the company is coming out to the pilots.

There is a leadership shift in thinking and some leadership change driving the company in a slightly new direction.

A330. May happen in the most distant future. It is an idea. In China there is the practice of over promising and while it is not untrue that they desire to fly the A330 there is no firm plan. This was made clear at the last meeting and the A320 drivers were not so happy about this. This will also slow the upward trend of E145 to E190 and E190 to A320. Surprised? This is how it works here. Don't think the A330 will be here if ever for several years. There may be an A430 on the market by then.

A seniority system of vacation was established to help with the desire of everyone to take off at the same times of the year. ie. Xmas and summer.
It is based on length of service and family. If you have a family here in China it boosts your seniority ranking a bit.

The 4/4 contract has some limitations on it that make it not the plan it seems. Simulator and medical months must only have 7 days off and you many only have 1 Xmas off every 2 years. This causes a 2 week on 2 week off period for two months. With other restrictions it makes the 6/3 more attractive. The people who came here for the straight 4/4 contract were upset at the limitations and are searching elsewhere at the moment. There are many 320 contracts out there that have better quality of life conditions. Northern China is abysmal. At least they are on paper offering Haikou as a base. You would rarely fly here and always deadhead out. This is the most overstaffed base now. It used to be a larger base for Tianjin then it moved North. Many of the pilots have houses there and are required to deadhead out. There is no reason to come here on the A320 when you could be in Chongqing, Shenzhen, Shanghai, or any of the other better livable places. The A320 contracts are very similar in China. Do you want to live in Liverpool or Barcelona?

It may not matter for the new pilots because they will most likely fall outside the new open/closed base definition. Each base will have a stated number of pilots needed. If you are over this arbitrary number, made by Tianjin, then you will be able to be assigned 3 individual 5 day trips a month. If you are on a 6/3 contract this means you are not in your flat most of the time you are in China. This means you are in some dingy cheap Chinese hotel. Enjoy the misery of your new found ultimate drifter status. I would advise you not starting drinking the JD in the darkness of your lonely hotel room. Then commute home somewhere on your days off. You will know a whole new kind of minimalistic life ie. Chinese life.

There are some E145 drivers new here that came on the condition they would upgrade immediately to the E190. This cannot happen as it is not allowed by CAAC rules. They are a little upset and have to sit on the E145 for at least one year on the line. This raised eyebrows on the E145. There are no E190 drivers slated to transition to the A320. Again. It is just an idea not a plan yet.

The time off on this new contract is a little less by about 15 days and the pay is 1K more per month. I think the Chinese think about money only or it vastly outweighs quality of life significance. Unless you have 4 kids with two ex-wives or a gambling problem what can you do with an extra 1k a month when you already make about 16K with 8K quarterly payments for flight benefits and tax relief? I will take those extra days off. If you are here you do not have to sign the new contract but once your contract expires you will have to sign whatever is being offered at the time. That makes a risk of something less than currently being offered a distinct possibility. You won't be needed forever. I expect it to be less next year and the contracts offered change rapidly.

Training pay for transition is now 5K per month. As you transition you have to sign the new contract. This means that in conservative estimates for a training period of 3 months you are at 5K. At a general average for all the A/C and contract options lets say 16K is your pay. 16k-5k equals 11k/month you lose. 11k x 3months equals 33k. Over a 3 year contract 33K equals the pay raise you just got on this new contract. Total gain..... 0. If you are planning to fly bigger equipment think about this. There are several people here that even if offered this transition now will not take it. If you take the transition and leave before the term of the contract you will have to pay Tianjin for the training costs. It is in house training but I promise you will get a CAE style bill.

But there are many new restrictions on this contract. Buybacks were implemented as it is getting difficult to take all your holidays but it makes your buybacks less than normal value.

Due to any training failure, any recheck is paid 50% by the pilot. The second failure is paid 100% by the pilot.

There is no sick leave on the new contracts. Your holidays will be used for sick leave.

The new Chinese social insurance is being implemented by the government and you will have to pay 11% towards this system. Unless you stay here several years you won't get it back. You do get medical insurance in China but it will be in Chinese style hospitals. Good luck with that. It amounts to about 250 USD per month you will never see again.

There are other things in this contract that in my opinion and the opinion of others here that this is not an improvement but pretty much the old contract with more limitations. The presentation left a sour taste in most people's mouth. Even some of the agencies are advising to not sign the new contract and remain on the old one. There may be a selfish motivation for this as the fee for the pilots may have changed too.

Someone asked what is the purpose of this contract. There was no answer.

You can still come here and make money. How long I have no idea. There are so many Chinese in training and the secret of AQP arrival is unknown. I do know with 100% certainty that you are expendable. You are temporary and anything more than a few years as in 2-3 is starting to look at longer gambling odds. If you are slugging it out flying Berlin-Milan 3 times a day and not making any money then I would say yes, come here and make some money and get some time off. Have an exit plan. Many don't stay long. Don't bring your kids. If you don't have a solid marriage and a confident partner don't come. Most don't even make the medical screening or the CAAC check. And that is not talent or skill because I'm here.

Don't read the blurbs about the pay and time off. You really need to understand the contract you are signing. I think this last contract was the peek.

China is changing rapidly. Going from 14% growth to 7% is a massive uncomfortable change. It means the cracks of reality are showing. The wild west is gone if not at least on hold.

Choose wisely.

[pilotss2001]

The moans and groans were heard. But really....
and more importantly is was the one pilot who quit in the middle of the meeting and the others that were on the phone to their recruiters to either end their contract or refuse to the sign the new contract that got the attention of the company swiftly.

The 5k during transition training is no longer in the contract but this does not mean if you are a new arrival that it won't be in yours. It doesn't mean that your re-signing, if any, will not include this provision. You will accumulate normal pay during this training time. Everything else stated remains the same from the previous post.

More important news received that the Embraer contract pilots (the ones from Brazil) are terminated as of July 2013. This does mean that Tianjin is catching up with staffing levels and without the expansion plan of the A330 and nothing slated for new orders of the E190 or A320 the projected slots are being filled. At time of writing the Brazilian pilots contract was moderated to a level comparable to the normal contractors.

[RjAgCR]

hi everyone...been reading this post and was wondering what is the current salary offered to new hires on the E190 !!! actual net salary and what bases are been offered at the moment.

Also, if anyone can PM me with some helpful info on how the application process is and additional (tips, study guides, etc) info would be appreciated..:ok:

rj

[pilotss2001]

Its been a while, and I am still getting PMs from people wanting to know what is going on at Tianjin. I no longer work there. I gave it up and moved to a company that pays me much less and I am purely happy. My life has been very pleasant and stress free. I don't grit my teeth anymore. And by chance I do grit my teeth there is not the gristle from fine sulfur bits from air so polluted it makes chemotherapy companies giddy with sugar plum fairies filled with Euros and Dollars.

So lets try to wrap this up. You are looking at Tianjin because something in your life or career didn't go quiet right and now you are looking for options. Why else would you be looking to get yourself out of a cushy spot? Right?

The biggest question lately is about the agencies. Why are some advertising more than others? Because they are lying bastards through and through. All the contracts offered by Tianjin, which Tianjin has paid timely, are exactly the same. How does that add up then? Because one contractor will advertise the base salary with the bonuses so you can see exactly what you get in a break down. The other used car salesman trick that other agencies use is advertising all the bonuses, allowances, extras, and the base salary averaged monthly over the duration of the contract. Sometimes these shady agencies will even advertise pay raises even though they have not been officially approved by Tianjin yet. -Note to yourself - something looks shady already- There are small differences in the contracts such as contract termination times of 30 days or 4 months. There are some other differences like when pay day occurs.

Americans, Yes you must pay taxes and yes you will get deductions. You will have to ALSO pay social security taxes on your wages. I don't care if you really do or not. That is between you and the IRS. But when they come for you, just like an HIV test result, you can't escape whats on the piece of paper they have in their hands.

Flying long term overseas is OK but the skill of flying in China demands managing skills and not so much flying skills. Although you will need all your flying skills to get pass the initial check ride. I was gone for 6 years from my home country. When I returned I had to relearn how to fly. How to use the radio, how to fly in dense airspace with rapid fire communications, how to use an electronic flight bag, how to shoot CATIII approaches, how to shoot RNP GPS approaches, how to fly a visual approach which is never done in China as well as just work in a cockpit that is CRM compared to the one man dog and pony show that a Chinese cockpit is and many other things. You do want to be at the top of your game when you do get that dream job for initial training on an airplane you never flew before right? Think about that.

China is a place that is not pleasant. Its tolerable. Shanghai is a decent place but anything in the North is 30 years behind Shanghai which is 15 years behind in culture to the rest of the modern world. Is it changing? Are there pockets of culture and coolness? Yes. But while you are there for your 3-10 years you won't get that High Street in London look or feel. Just try to get a straight up martini with real top shelf vodka with decent olives. Something simple like your favorite box of cereal or a decent martini will become Sir Galahad's quest.

Tianjin Airlines is not mean they are just inept. They are being guided by some of the expats there and they are trying but telling a person to dance when that person has never known what dancing was is difficult. This often leads to something that is not remotely close to dancing even though they themselves are starting to think they are pretty good at dancing. I believe this is how break-dancing was started. You will have a hair line pushing backwards a few centimeters as you constantly face palm yourself.

Is living in China ideal. No. No and No. Do they pay you lots of money. Yes. Do you lose out on seniority at home YES YES YES. Unless there is some spacial anomaly time marches forward no matter what country you go.

Make a spreadsheet out and list your goals financially and how that necessitates a seniority back home because this because this is big. You will not work in China for the rest of your career. The chance of that just with the medical process makes that extremely remote. There are other factors that will phase you out too but just with the medical alone will kill you of ever getting near mid 50.

Retiring after a few years.... OK look you really need to think about this because I have heard this from too many people. Think this through and talk to a retirement planner because I have heard some really retarded ideas. And when I mean retarded I don't mean it in an offensive way. I mean it in a clinical term. These people are mentally retarded. You cannot work for 6 years in China and then retire unless you had money prior to Asia and plan to live in a yurt. Most of you guys are coming here in your 30s and 40s. We are now living well into our 80s. Stopping work 10-20 years prior to retirement is financial and literally suicide. Every year you don't work prior to retirement you are draining the assets that should be accumulating for retirement. Talk to tax accountants, talk to wealth managers, talk to retirement advisers to give you a real sense of what your life costs.

In the EU things are barren. More barren than my grandmother and she's 86. The US market for pilots is heating up and 3 years is decent but anything longer than this will slowly drive nails into your career coffin. Tianjin really doesn't hire the young guys. You can read some of my posts why. But assuming you are in your 30s and 40s you are probably planning to return to the States. The benefit of fast rolling numbers is lots of people like yourself get hired. The curse of fast rolling numbers is alarmingly vast amounts of younger than you pilots get on that same seniority list. I've just returned to my home country and there are people with no commercial PIC already being hired into the flag carriers. These people will not retire before you. They are forever a ceiling on the list. Europeans will have more leeway in time unless you fancy Ryan Air. My advice to fellow Eurozoners is to catch one of those American university girls on their EU trips and lay down your native accent thick. Get the US passport and watch your seniority rise faster than a rocket and then move back to the EU to retire.

The economy has started its next cycle. The world is rebounding and the time to the next downturn is already ticking. Choosing to stay 6-10 years in China is a HUGE gamble if you want to return to your home country. Look back at former economic cycles and pilot hiring. Don't set yourself up to be stuck on the F/O list or worse yet on the street. Now look at the other end of the timeline. That guy who leapfrogged you back home on the seniority list has been sitting pretty at the top of the seniority list looking down from his A350 cockpit with the Tuesday-Thursday trip to Aruba and weekends at home. Don't be stuck on standby for the rest of your career.

Here are the mandatory captain retirements at just the 3 largest airlines in the US in the next 10 years and this does not include any of the other low cost carriers, commuters, and corporate flying. And this does not account for new rest rules or expansions just pure mandatory retirements.

Year - Mandatory Retirements
2014 - 794
2015 - 836
2016 - 937
2017 - 1141
2018 - 1390
2019 - 1629
2020 - 2128
2121 - 2364
2122 - 2191

If you have no where else to go then China is a real option but to put yourself out of a seniority number at this point is something to think about. You can always go overseas if you get furloughed but you can't go back to a seniority number you never had.

Don't fall for the large blocks of holiday. That 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off is a brutal schedule. You will still fly about 800+ hours in a year with that contract. I'm not very senior at my company but I still get 16 days off with holidays, Xmas, and New Years. Well that's damn close to a 6 weeks on and two weeks off contract and almost a 6 weeks on and 3 weeks off too. And I get my perfect martini with real vodka. What good are days off if you are too tired to live the simple pleasures?

So before you PM me again read all the messages about Tianjin. Tianjin is of course going to tell you its comfortable and they even have some pilots there that will tell you its paradise until you arrive and meet the rest of the pilots and they are generally frustrated at life. Hey, you make the big bucks for something not because they think you are a nice guy.

You are most likely here on this board looking at this message because of some financial crisis, your airline is dying, or you really could use some time away from that troll you call your wife and you might as well make some money and come down with "Yellow Fever" in the process. There are lots of reasons but something at home is not working.

I will leave you with this simple phrase I heard once on a short wave radio that I picked up from what I thought was a Southern Baptist preacher

"Son, let me tell ya, you see that green grass, and you want that green grass your neighbor has, and you covet it, and you want it, and you even love it. But Son, let me tell ya, YOU JUST AIN'T SEEN THE WATER BILL."

- China is much more than just about the salary and time off. You can't live like you live at home. All those comforts are gone in China.

[Rayoflight]

Pretty interesting post.

Thanks!!!

Careful with the analisys...the economy is in an upturn and airlines are expanding in USA and Europe...let's see what 2014 will deliver. Hope we will not be in another Lehman collapse and again, loads of pilots will end up jobless. I recall airlines hiring in Europe as there was no tomorrow in 2006/2007. They stop hiring at the end of 2007. Reductions and unpaid leaves in 2008. Companies bankrupt in 2010-2012.

[lifeafteraviation]

Tianjin Airlines is hiring Embraer E145 captains again. As before, they are promising a transition to the Embraer E190 and eventually the Airbus A320.

The posts by pilotss2001 have been generally accurate if a bit negative. Some people like it in China, others don’t. I highly recommend reading all his posts.

I’m going to attempt to lay down the facts here without as much commentary. These are the things your recruiter probably won’t tell you about. Your recruiter gets a commission on successful placement so be sure to understand that. Your recruiter can be a powerful ally as well and a great resource so be sure to research the many different recruiters. It’s important you understand these facts before you make decisions about flying in China.

No one has ever transitioned to the Airbus A320 at Tianjin Airlines nor are there any scheduled plans to do so. They still talk about it though. If you get hired today to fly the Embraer E145 it would likely be 4-5 years before such an opportunity presented itself assuming you successfully transition to the E190 first and completed the 3 year contract. Everything will likely change before then.

Historically the transition to the Embraer E190 occurs after about one year but varies depending on when you start. Tianjin Airlines frequently cancels classes at the last minute and change dates and contract terms for Embraer E190 transition training. They have been saying “immediate upgrade” without ever having to actually fly the E145 for a long time but it’s never happened.

The current contract for the Embraer E145 at Tianjin Airlines is not as good as it was last year. No one has ever been hired under this new contract (at the time of this post). The new contract is for about the same money as the old contract but with fewer vacation days, no sick days, heavier restrictions on when you can take vacation days, and greatly reduced salaries during transition training (although this last part may get removed due to its intense unpopularity). Also the new contract requires you to pay for any additional training you may incur. It is very common for pilots to fail line checks and sim checks in China for what seem like insignificant reasons. Often pilots are sent for additional training for common occurrences such as QAR warnings caused by wind shear or other uncontrollable factors. Financial penalties are sometimes assessed for these things depending on the pilot’s attitude and history but I'm not sure if they will require you to pay for the additional sim time you will get since these contracts are still pretty new.

There are a few weird caveats in the new contract such as losing vacation days when you are sick (you will get sick occasionally when you live and fly in China). Also there's a clause stating that when there are any inconsistencies between the English and Chinese version of the contract the Chinese version will prevail (Good luck figuring that out).

[edit - added]Another thing the recruiters avoid telling you is that when you start training you don't get any vacation and you only get 60% of your agreed contracted salary with Tianjin Airlines for the first 45 days. After 45 days you get 80% salary until you complete your final line check and make your first flight as a solo captain (the 45 day period can be reduced if your paperwork goes through a bit faster but you have no control over this and it rarely happens). This entire period of initial training can take anywhere from 3-6 months. Your vacation schedule begins on that same date you go to 100% salary with no credit for the time spent in training.

You get paid on the 15th of the month following the work completed so you won't see your first paycheck for a while. Tianjin Airlines only pays the first 30 days of living expenses at a hotel (good hotel but isolated). Normally in China you must pay rent for your apartment several months in advance plus a security deposit. Rent is similar to the cost in the U.S. depending on the location, size, and city. You will need some cash to get you started in China...probably at least five thousand dollars cash on hand or you will go broke, hungry and homeless before you get your first check. U.S. ATM cards usually work in China and you can get Chinese money out of an ATM on a foreign account but you will pay fees.

Since half your salary is paid in Chinese currency you will probably need to find creative ways to convert it to U.S. currency and take it home. It's not always easy but most pilots have figured out creative ways to do it.

Many pilots have chosen to keep their old contracts (especially those flying the E145 or the 4/4 E190 schedule who had little financial reason to change it) but Tianjin Airlines is still attempting to impose new restrictions on old contracts causing some friction among the pilots. An example of this is the new policy requiring pilots on the 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off (one month on and one month off) vacation cycle to rotate each year to avoid having the same months off every year. Since this wasn’t entered into the old contract which many pilots still use it’s unclear if the company can force pilots to accept this change if they don’t want to. Generally the Chinese don’t see contracts as binding in the way we do in the U.S. But they will still expect you to honor your terms.

Also, if you come here as an E145 pilot, when you transition to the Embraer E190 you are subject to signing whatever contract is in effect at the time you finish transition training. The contracts have historically been updated every year or so. This means the E190 contract you are expected to sign will likely be different than the one in effect when you signed the initial Embraer E145 contract. You are required to sign a letter of intent to sign the contract before you begin training but the actual contract is signed after training many months later. It may change during that time. They usually have different requirements and incentives in the contract for transition training than for new hire Embraer E190 pilots. Generally transition pilots have fewer options.

All this means that if you come to Tianjin Airlines as an Embraer E145 captain and plan to transition to the E190 you can expect you will be under contract a total of 4-5 years from when you start your E145 contract. Don't think you will go and fly the E190 right away and be finished in just three years.

You are expected to pay $20,000 USD for your transition training after you are already hired by withholding $2000 from your salary over a ten month period starting when you begin training. The company will reimburse this fee to you gradually over the three year contract but will penalize you if you quit your contract early. Don’t expect to see the first reimbursement until about a year and a half after you begin transition training.

Currently the contract states your salary will be reduced to $5,000 per month during the first part of transition training (about 2 months or so). No one has been subjected to this yet because no one has yet gone through transition training that was initially hired under these new contract terms. As stated in the other posts Tianjin Airlines tried to impose this policy on the old contracts but it was changed. Each time a transition class has occurred (I think it’s two or three times total??) the terms of the training have been different.

You are also expected to forgo any vacation (trips home to see your family) until you have fully completed training and are a "solo captain" flying with a Chinese first officer. This applies to initial and transition training and your vacation will not accrue during this time. Transition training can take 4-6 months. If you transition quickly to the E190 don't expect to get to go home much in that first year. You are not allowed to select the four weeks on and four weeks off schedule until after a year or so.

Tianjin Airlines latest ads for Embraer E145 pilots state bases in Tianjin and Hohhot. Tianjin is where the majority of foreign pilots are based. There are currently no foreign pilots based in Hohhot and being located in Inner Mongolia it can get very cold there but there’s less pollution. Research the cities. I don’t think there are many foreigners living in Hohhot at all compared to Tianjin and it’s pretty remote. You don’t necessarily get to choose your base despite the recruiters saying that you do.

If you are “hired” by Tianjin Airlines your chances of completing the screening are pretty small historically. Maybe 20-40 percent of “hired” pilots completes the screening and is able to report for training and get paid. I believe there was one instance during the past year where some seven or eight guys from one U.S. carrier all failed to pass screening during the simulator test. These are people who are currently flying the type as a line captain. After you go on payroll and start initial training you have maybe a 10-20% chance of washing out. Several pilots have spent four months on initial training only to be released by the company after failing a line check. You normally have to do two days of line checks with four legs each and two different check airman on two separate occasions to pass. That’s a total of 16 line checks segments. The simulator checks are separate; normally just the one for the CAAC and then every six months just like the U.S.

The main thing that pilots have difficulty with in the sim evaluations is the multiple failures and max crosswind landings. If you plan on taking the sim check screening take a chance to practice single engine 30 knot crosswind landings in the sim back home. If you can’t land on the centerline, maintain the centerline, land on the touchdown zone and land on speed without exceeding 1.6Gs you probably won’t pass. A perfect Chinese landing is smack on the centerline at the 1000 foot marker at exactly Vref and not too hard and not too soft. Don’t try to impress a Chinese check airman by “greasing it on” or you will fail. You don’t need to be perfect but you need to be consistently close and clearly in control. The Chinese are very mechanical in their flying technique. Once you get used to it it’s not that hard to fly this way.

The good news is I don’t think anyone has ever failed transition training and even if you do Tianjin Airlines says you can just go back to your old plane and finish your original contract. I believe there are only a handful of guys ever to have actually taken transition training at Tianjin Airlines and there are four going through simulator right now. Once you get past that first hurdle of coming to China and learn how to “fly Chinese” it’s much easier to transition to a new type than it is to complete initial in a type you are already flying. It’s ironic that the Chinese airlines spend so much effort to recruit new pilots from overseas rather than focus on keeping the pilots they already have.

Another major consideration you must make is that if you come to Tianjin Airlines or any other airline in China hoping to jump to another airline later keep in mind that you are legally beholden to the company that sponsors you. They own your resident permit, your work permit, and your CAAC ATPL certificate. It’s unlikely an airline will allow you to go to another airline unless your contract has expired and even then some airlines have tricky clauses built in to automatically renew your contract (remember the part about the Chinese words prevail when there’s a discrepancy in the contract?). While Tianjin Airlines is the only Chinese airline currently recruiting Embraer E145 and E190 pilots there may be better opportunities out there. Some airlines recruit experienced pilots directly into other types but it’s very rare at this stage.

Don’t expect to stiff the Chinese and skip town in the middle of the night. Several pilots have done that and have burned their bridges. They will never get a solid referral and will never get to go back to China, even as a crewmember on another carrier. Try explaining to your new company why you can’t go on that trip to China.

I would like to go on and discuss some of the positives of living and flying in China simply to provide a counter point to the excellent posts made by pilotss2001 but I wanted to keep this post to just the hard facts. As I said before, some people like it here and some don’t. The best way to avoid coming here and not liking it or coming here and failing is to understand the facts first and decide if you still want to come.

Pilotss2001 made some excellent points about the state of the airline industry in the United States and the potential opportunities opening up. It’s happening very suddenly but it is happening. Many of the U.S. pilots at Tianjin Airlines are looking to go back and ride this next boom while some are planning on making a long term commitment to China.

[CRX]

Thanks for a very informative post.
I am due to head over for screening as a 190 captain shortly, and am understably a little apprehensive. I have read lots on here and other sites about living in China, and still wish to come and have a look.
I am a current 190 captain in Europe, and will be jobless shortly so this opportunity is one I am keen to progress.
My expectations are low, and I can generally roll with the punches so I hope I can hack it.
It would be great if you could post again with the positives of living and working out there when you get the time to do so.
A few questions in the meantime though.

I would be trying for the month on / month off contract in order to keep my family living at home, and me still able to see them. Is this contract all it appears? Will I realistically get close to a month back home (allowing for travel of course).

The staff travel rates, are they 25% off or 75% off regular ticket price? I have seen both stated in various places...

I understand contract is for 80 hours a month, do they genuinely pay $200 per hour over that or is it avoided by splitting the month as alluded to earlier in the thread?

Could you please outline a typical working day, if there is such a thing? No. of sectors flown, challenges, issues etc.

Any other info would be greatly received.
Thanks for your time.

CRX.

[lifeafteraviation]

CRX,

I'm glad you are interested in Tianjin Airlines but there are clearly a few things that you aren't being told about.

I am a current 190 captain in Europe, and will be jobless shortly so this opportunity is one I am keen to progress.

If you are going to be jobless anyway then you have nothing to lose and you should give it a shot. There are a lot of Europeans in Tianjin.

My expectations are low

That's good! So you may actually have fun.

I would be trying for the month on / month off contract in order to keep my family living at home, and me still able to see them. Is this contract all it appears? Will I realistically get close to a month back home (allowing for travel of course).

There is no month on month off anymore as you describe. The contract is different as of this year. You have four months you can take a month off, and two months where you can take just three weeks off. Those two months are arbitrarily set by the company based on your simulator recurrent schedule. In addition, every February you are on a two week on and two weeks off schedule for one month in order to reverse the cycle of which months you are off. For example, you can't take Christmas off every year. This means you will need to buy seven round trip tickets per year, not six.

Of course you'll be making good money so you should be able to afford it. Don't forget to factor in an apartment. If you're lucky you can get a room mate and reduce living costs because you won't be spending that much time in your apartment anyway flying the E190.

The staff travel rates, are they 25% off or 75% off regular ticket price? I have seen both stated in various places...

This is only for domestic travel. I'm pretty sure anyway. The other thing is those are only discounts off a full fare ticket which is almost always more expensive than what you will pay online. AND...you must pay the full taxes on the ticket. In China ticket tax is something to the tune of 60%. So just ignore that....it sounds great when coming from a recruiter but it's useless. You can expect to buy tickets at retail cost (online discounts) or better yet any deals you can obtain with your current airline.

I understand contract is for 80 hours a month, do they genuinely pay $200 per hour over that or is it avoided by splitting the month as alluded to earlier in the thread?

This won't apply to you if you accept the month on/ month off schedule. There is no overtime for that schedule even if you somehow manage to go over 80 hours in 16 days (I have actually done this by the way). And yes, overtime is paid per calendar month, not scheduled month. Typically what you can expect is to fly about 60 hours per calendar month in a back to back schedule per rotation which comes to about 120 hours for each one month schedule spread over two calendar months...no overtime is paid. There is no limit and the 60 hours is approximate. As I said, sometimes it's possible to do 80 hours of flying in about two weeks.

Another thing is Chinese flight time and duty time regulations are not the same as ICAO standards so you can expect very long duty days that can exceed 14 hours back to back and occassionally more than eight hours of flying per duty day, especially on the E190 or A320.

Although such working days are common there are some days that go much easier of course. It's just that the average on time departure rate is around 50% so you are almost always late and exceed your schedule. The lines out of cities other than Tianjin tend to be a bit easier.

A lot of people do this and enjoy it but the ones that enjoy it the most are the ones who don't have as much experience flying for other airlines. You can certainly make a lot of money...more than just about any other flying job in a regional jet. To some people the money is enough to justify the challenges but to others it's not. Like I said, if you're out of work anyway it's worth a shot.

[lifeafteraviation]

OK....are there any international laws against misleading and outright false ads for job recruiting?

Hopefully it's not illegal to tell the truth so let me set a few things straight here.

The latest ad from Tempo Aviation reads....

E190 & E145 job captain jobs, great pay package, choices of roster pattern, A320 rating provided

Rapidly expanding Chinese regional carrier is looking to recruit current E190 Captains to fly their brand new aircrafts.

Great package, comfortable roster pattern and brilliant training opportunities. The Airline offers A320 type rating training to E190 captains after a period of service.

The contract can offer:

Upto US$17,000/month after tax service fee for E190 captains

Ascending annual bonus up to US$15,000

Choice of roster patterns including one month on one month off

US$8,000 travel allowance and discounted tickets for pilots and family

Bases in Hainan Island and other locations

First of all, I don't know how current this is. To my knowledge they aren't hiring any E145 Captains. They haven't in more than a year and a half. The E145s are slowly being sent to Africa to fly for another carrier and they have scaled back the operations.

The rest of the ad is not very accurate. See my posts above.

Tianjin Airlines has NEVER, transitioned a foreign captain from an EMB to the Airbus nor are there any current plans to do so. They've been making such promises for years now but have never stepped up or even said if they ever will. There are foreign Embraer captains that have been at Tianjin Airlines for almost five years now.

It is definitely a good pay package but not a comfortable roster. The E190 and A320 captains fly very long days back to back and typically spend five days on the road at a time in sub standard hotels. Anyone who tells you the hotels are ok hasn't stayed in a decent hotel in a long while.

There is no longer a one month on one month off roster except for people still on the old contracts. The new contract is one month off just three times a year only...then two months where you only get three weeks off (training months), and one month where you get two weeks off and two weeks on. Also the pay is 4K less per month for this option.

There's only one slot for a foreign captain based in Hainan island and it's taken....no "bases."

Also, you start out at only 60% pay for the first 45 days, then 80% until you complete your ground and line training through line check which typically takes anywhere from three to six months. Also, no vacation or travel home is allowed during this period and vacation time doesn't begin to accrue until you are at 100% pay so don't expect to go home soon after you arrive.

Just trying to set the record straight...I hate misleading advertising trying to take advantage of pilots.

That being said... this is not necessarily a bad opportunity and there are many good things about this company as well. Just please don't take the BS hook line and sinker and then regret it later.

[RjAgCR]

If i ever consider to apply to Tianjin Airlines, which is the best way to go..through an agency or directly with the airline?:confused:

Never used an agency before so thats why i am asking...can anyone suggest a good agency if this is the best way to go?

Thanks for the replies! :ok:

Rj

[lifeafteraviation]

I would contact a few different recruiters and then ask them serious questions about the contract after reading my previous posts on the last page...

Go with the one that tells you the truth...or at least gets the closest.

[RjAgCR]

Thanks for your reply, I would like to know your opinion on APAS (Asia Pacific Aviation Services) and/or VOR Holdings if you have any on them...this is all very new to me and would like to gather as much info as I can before making a life changing decision....I really appreciate your help.:ok:

Rj

[lifeafteraviation]

There is a separate section in these forums on recruiters you can read. Most people have very different experiences. Best to go with someone you like.

[Rayoflight]

Try Parc or Pilotmovers. The second one has more personnel in China.

[USMCProbe]

Sorry I have never heard of Pilotmovers, ever, or met a pilot on contract in China with them. I would recommend Parc or Wasinc. APAS is affiliated with a couple of the HNA group airlines. Probably some of their pilots (locals). I would skip the as well.

[PAR31]

Well I am one of them, with Pilotmovers, and I am going through the process with them at the moment.
So far no complain and very professional staff following me during the process. Nice to talk with Pilot when you need help from them as they are all Pilot employed in China.
Good luck to every one.....

[RjAgCR]

Hi,

Would anyone here currently flying for TJA on the E190 care to share what a normal line would be based at Tianjin....was wondering how many nights out (if any) and if there are any turn arounds flights at all? and of course how many hours are you currently flying on the E jet!! :ok:

Thanks for the replies,

Rj

[lifeafteraviation]

I suppose it depends on the contract and more importantly, what base you're at.

In some of the bases there are very few if any overnights and the schedules are ok.

Based in Tianjin there are a lot of overnights in sub standard hotels and generally the airline will try to squeeze as much flying into your schedule as the CAAC will legally allow. Because you are rarely on time you will almost always fly even more than that.

Typically you would go out for 3 to 5 nights at a time and then fly a couple long days from home base. Vacation is important here because this plane will keep you insanely busy.

[RjAgCR]

Thanks for your reply, it is go info.

I am more interested in the contract that gives you 110 days off and with this contract what would be the base that gives you the best quality of live..?

Also interested to know how those off days work? whats the max you could take in a row...:confused:

Rj :ok:

[lifeafteraviation]

whats the max you could take in a row.

It's been a bit fuzzy lately and also a bone of contention since they are subject to approval by management and are frequently denied.

[aime]

As a US citizen you are supposed to report income from anywhere in the world to the IRS. Does not mean that you will be taxed however as people have different situations etc.

Working in China works for some. Things happen in slow motion especially as far as paper work goes. Everything else is "about" and subject to change at a nano second's notice so be very very very flexible. It's disorganized most everywhere but people are friendly.

Eventually you get used to it or you bail out.

If you walk off your Chinese job -do not finish your contract - you will probably never work in China again as you will need a release letter from your employer to get a subsequent work visa.

Good luck!

[pilotss2001]

"In case you ever wanted to work in China again"...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHA!

[Aerobaticeagle]

Is there any significant improvement on schedule and in particular on the commuting?

Any updated info is appreciated, thank you

I am looking for a job and some friends told me the commuting half month is working

[Northern_Driver]

These things are not so black and white. For example, I can imagine European/US based 190-commuter captain thinking about this opportunity to make some serious money. Here in Europe you can make 100 grand a year, but after tax and house payments thats nothing. You can live on it, but thats it.

People adjust diffrently to different places on earth. For some China is a nightmare and I am sure for some a good opportunity to make money and retire.

What I would like to hear is the positive things for working there. Anybody? And I dont mean cheap beer :}

[lifeafteraviation]

But cheap beer there is plenty...Chinese beer will give you a headache and Chinese liquor will make you sick. Overall the cost of living is similar to the USA.

The best part of the job is vacation but the new contract gives less and less. Vacations are denied and often rescinded. Many pilots are forced to work during planned vacations and aren't even allowed to take the vacation they've accumulated.

The commuting schedules are better but after expenses you aren't making as much money and they will fly you very hard in the two weeks per calendar month that you are on duty...as much as 80 hours. There is no sick leave allowed so if you call in sick (even fatigued after flying six hours already) they will take a vacation day from you.

There are so many limitations to vacation that if you don't plan on living almost full time in China don't bother to come.

Pretty much everything else is a sacrifice of lifestyle so don't expect to hear any upside other than the money...which is inarguably very good. But at what cost?

I also don't recommend permanently giving up your job back home because many (yes many) pilots fail out of training after getting on payroll and moving to China...the risks are high. Failures are most often for trivial things that have little to do with your ability as a captain.

[RjAgCR]

Can anyone on the 110 days off contract explain how those days off work?! Do you get 11 consecutive days off per month during 10 months or how does it really work? :confused:

[lifeafteraviation]

Can anyone on the 110 days off contract explain how those days off work?! Do you get 11 consecutive days off per month during 10 months or how does it really work?

Yes that's pretty much it. You can take the 11 days back to back over two calendar months and get 22 in a row or take any 11 days in a calendar month. You can't take any vacation during months when you have a training event due which is twice per year.

Other caveats exist due to the company policy that no more than 50 percent of the foreign pilot group is allowed to take vacation at the same time and vacations are often denied altogether during peak summer and winter months. Some pilots are finding that they are being denied vacation or having their vacation cancelled after it was previously approved and are not even able to take the full 110 days over the course of the year.

Also, you are not allowed to take vacation during initial or transition training and the lost vacation doesn't accrue so you never get it back. Initial training for current and rated new hire pilots takes from 4 to 8 months (usually about 6). Transition training seems to take about 6 to 8 months (there is no transition to the A320 ever). So if you go don't expect to come home for the first six months or so and don't expect to get more than around 50 vacation days in the first year.

[FCOM-5]

River (eng. name), the guy in charge of the TJA recruitment is doing a pretty good job there and the recruitment looks like still a bit old fashion, but they are good in managing and communicating the different steps.


As TJA are part of the HNA Group, they are paring up with their group recruitment at HNA-OVERSEAS.com


Life in Tianjin is not too bad, however pollution in DEC-JAN-FEB-MAR can be tuff though.

[lifeafteraviation]

Tianjin is the armpit of China...slightly better than some other places but mostly nothing there. Working in Tianjin will shorten your life by five years at least.

[whitepimp]

hello guys, hope everyone is well

Im thinking about applying for the Capt position on A320 4 on 4 off pattern with wasinc or any other contractor. Money and time off sounds ok.

Does this airline actually produce this roster(sounds too good to be true) and do they pay you for the month your off?What is it like working for these guys? Besides the smoke and pollution which i can deal with etc is the job secure because im scared off the horror stories off medicals, sims,CAAC atpl and intial training being at a high risk off failure? Is there anybody that has lasted for more then 5 years in this company?

Any info is much appreciated

Pimp:p

[lifeafteraviation]

Did you read the thread?

Especially read the OP and my posts.

Ignore FCOM-5 since he is Chinese and working for the airline. So he admitted in a previous public post (so I don't go afoul of forum rules).

By far most of the pilots at Tianjin have been there less than two years. Currently they are losing pilots about as fast as they can hire them. Lots of false promises and breaking the contract.

[whitepimp]

thanks for the info LAAviation..sounds like what i expected

[USMCProbe]

I worked for their sister airline and we trained all of their initial cadre of airbus pilots.

My experience was the same. Despite massive recruiting, training, and hiring, the number of expats over time stayed about the same. Sometimes it would go up, stay there, but then several would leave for one reason or another.

Only go there if you have a job to go back to.

[guacamaya]

Hi there, I will participate in this interview in Orlando next week. Is there anybody who has experience with this kind of interview? I would really appreciate any advice on how it works. They told me there will be a training session in the morning and then a sim check the same night. Is that all? What could be sim check about, just manual handling or a full checkride like an LPC?

[lifeafteraviation]

It's not an interview. It's a recruitment drive. Even if they "hire" you...and they likely will (unless you crash the sim), you must still complete the screening and testing in China. The vast majority don't get past it.

Medical is an issue. You must be in very good health. Overweight can cause a few issues with the medical. You can still pass overweight as long as you are in good health overall. It's a very thorough exam.

The recruiters will attempt to size you up without telling you. They often reject people for silly idiosyncrasies that just rub them wrong. They are very superstitious also. Do some research on Chinese culture.

Good luck though.

[whitepimp]

Sounds the Chinese Airlines and there contractors need to have a look in the Mirror. What a waste off a region of decent work

[dutchsquard]

There is a lot of great information in this thread, thanks to everyone who has contributed constructively.

I have lived, worked, and travelled through many countries in, say, transition. Spent a lot of the 90's in Eastern Europe, Estonia, and Russia. I found that at times it can be difficult and other time fantastic. Now, I have never been to Asia, which seems to be a different beast. However, the money is tempting me, and I am up for an adventure.

So after the recruitment sim what happens? You go to China for a medical or do they do it in America? You need a CAAC ATPL or is ICAO sufficient? I have read that you write a CAAC exam that is in poor english, does the company provide in class preparation or this or is it done by your contract company? How is the exam? I am not too worried about the medical, I am in good health and live an active lifestyle.

If you make it through recruitment why is training 4-6 months on a plane you are already type rated? What is the training process? Why do candidates wash out?

How do you get set up with an apartment across the planet? When I moved for work previously it was all set up for me. How do you find a roommate if this is the route you want to go?

I have contacted VOR holdings, and Vector Pacific but most of the information is pretty vague.

When working the contract with 110 vacation days a year, how often are you making overtime? The $200USD over 80 per calendar month.

I understand that working for Tianjin can be a bit of a show, I roll with the punches pretty well and am really looking for the best way to make some cake to put away. Canadian airlines are bending over backward to keep their money far away from their pilots.

I am also looking at other contracts outside of China, but China seems to be offering the most money, which is really my only motivation. Hey, I'm being honest. I want to go, stay for 6 years, then get a job at Wal-Mart.

[lifeafteraviation]

I am up for an adventure.

It is certainly an adventure and I wouldn't say don't try it.

So after the recruitment sim what happens? You go to China for a medical or do they do it in America? You need a CAAC ATPL or is ICAO sufficient? I have read that you write a CAAC exam that is in poor english, does the company provide in class preparation or this or is it done by your contract company? How is the exam? I am not too worried about the medical, I am in good health and live an active lifestyle.

You must obtain a CAAC ATPL but it will be done after employment and arranged by the airline. The written is done prior to recruitment and you are allowed to retake if you fail. Many people fail the first time due to the reasons you mentioned. Preparation is up to you but your recruiter may have some practice material for you to use. Medical is thorough.

If you make it through recruitment why is training 4-6 months on a plane you are already type rated? What is the training process? Why do candidates wash out?

It's a good question. The Chinese are inefficient in the extreme when it comes to training and testing pilots...this is why they need you. The training process is pretty much non existent so pilots wash out because they don't really know what's expected of them or why they may be performing badly. Much of the evaluation is highly subjective so it depends on the instructor you may have. Again, the Chinese are superstitious and often find subtle faults in strange places that get blown out of proportion.

How do you get set up with an apartment across the planet? When I moved for work previously it was all set up for me. How do you find a roommate if this is the route you want to go?

You have one month of a nice hotel paid by the airline to find a place. There are other expat pilots who will help you if you ask. This is not that difficult and there are some nice places to live. The trick is that you might not know where you will be based right away and most landlords require 3 to 6 months advance rent plus a security deposit and you won't have been paid yet. You must have plenty of cash on hand prior to going to China.

When working the contract with 110 vacation days a year, how often are you making overtime? The $200USD over 80 per calendar month.

This is dependent largely on your base. There are plenty of options for overtime if you want it.

I understand that working for Tianjin can be a bit of a show, I roll with the punches pretty well and am really looking for the best way to make some cake to put away. Canadian airlines are bending over backward to keep their money far away from their pilots.

I understand. You will make good money. You need to be flexible, tolerant, and open minded to survive.

I am also looking at other contracts outside of China, but China seems to be offering the most money, which is really my only motivation. Hey, I'm being honest. I want to go, stay for 6 years, then get a job at Wal-Mart.

If you can last six years you are in a very small minority but some people do it. It's rewarding in many ways but there is a sacrifice.

Read my previous posts if you haven't already.

[safelife]

Ni hao ma,

could someone update us on the current situation in Tianjin Airlines? A larger european airline offers its pilots to fly for Tianjin for a year or two, on the A320.
This thread seems a little E190 and US boys-focussed, some insight from the Airbus side of things would help. Current bases on offer, length of trips/layovers at outstations, general mood of folks flying there.
We would retain our seniority and could return in case things don't work out as expected, so our situation is somewhat different to those leaving other jobs to join.

Thanks!

[safelife]

Anyone, anything?

[Capt Phillips]

Hi guys! Any news about Tianjin? Have they been upgrading between fleets?Any info would be helpful bacause I am about to send my application to them. Tks