Doha Airport. Qatar

[Punchespilot]

Good morning,


I operate into and out of Doha airport, State of Qatar a couple of times per month.

Just a few comments and questions regarding the controlling here,

From the approach side,

More often than not the standard of controlling is quiet good. There has been a number of expat controllers {mainly controllers from UK airports} employed in the last 12-18months who I just admit are exceptionally good and well able to handle the large amount of arrivals from all directions without STARS and a lot of restrictions on airspace. I.E from Bahrain and UAE as I understand.


There seems to be a lack of commutation from the surrounding area airspace and Doha ACC as when we are approaching our descent points, we are given speed Mach and Indicated to fly during descent and routings and then on handover to Doha its totally the opposite, massive shortcut , which we are too high on the “profile” etc. Its very repetitive example of poor planning here as well as given high speeds then approaching 10000ft sent to a hold for a lap.

With regards to the tower, the approach controllers seem not to be tower rated? Not entirely sure here.

From my understanding peak time is 0700 – 0900 and from 2200 till 0100 with a large amount of arrivals and depts. There is a ground frequency here and it’s rarely in use. Of course the use of PDC for clearance has reduced the RT calls for clearance there is massive congestion on the frequency. Aircraft stepping on each other requesting push and others calling for taxi and others receiving T/O clearance and heli’s looking for lift for the rigs makes it impossible to communicate effectively, however the controllers do there best to operate in less than adequate conditions.

Any controllers here from Doha? Like to comment...

[Robor66]

Hi Punchespilot,

Comments taken on board and I'll do my best to answer them( no expert but I think I know enough to help)

I Understand they do their best ( expats /others) in a very challenging and restrictive bit of airspace. However experience levels vary considerablly and a lot of the time ( due to no stars) plans are changed..!

The airspace is controlled purely as an approach sector, there is no ACC to speak off, but during peak periods( which is more often than not now) they do split and open a director position.
I can't comment on the speed rest. your given from UAE/BAH but asssume it would be to maintain the standard' in trail ' sep. from traffic ahead/behind.
This would then be lifted routinly on contact because they can use shorter in trail sep and vertical, unless they were holding..... in which case,you'd prob get a further reduction.
As for being to high.....I can only suggest you advise that your to high and ask for extra track miles....I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.
With regards to the tower...... I know almost all the guys / girls on approach are dual rated, however are not twr valid at Doha yet.! and the Twr guys and girls do an OUTSTANDING job in an extremely difficult and V.V busy enviroment.
Things have improved incredably in a relatively short time frame and i'm sure will only get better..!

Hope this helps:rolleyes:

[ferris]

There is a serious lack of controllers in Doha. It's as simple as that. They are so far behind the curve regarding providing the infrastructure to keep up with their aspirations in this part of the world, it isn't funny. I am told that some shifts have 2 controllers, yet some still have 1!!! If this were the UK (or whatever you are used to), there would be about 7 on each crew for the number of aircraft they handle in the restricted airspace. Just accept;
- the problems are nothing to do with the controllers. They work like one-armed paper hangers in very challenging circumstances (as you can hear)
- there is NO COHESION between units. Hence the speed-up-and-hold type scenarios. The inter-unit procedures are very restrictive, blunt instruments. The controllers do their best IN SPITE of said lack of support. You simply can't co-ordinate with a guy who has 15 on vectors and is working 1-up. He is fighting just to keep his head above water, let alone finesse the inbound flow from 3 different directions.
- the controllers do not have the tools to provide the level of service you receive elsewhere (controller numbers, procedures, equipment etc. etc.).

Your patience is appreciated- as is a lack of questioning instructions ("You want me to descend now?"). If you really wanted your hair curled, visit ANY of the units in the ME.

[Vercingetorix]

Agreed:sad:

[Phantom Driver]

Is Pam Chester here? Need some good controllers!:ok:

[Robor66]

Ferris,

I couldn't agree more with your comments........however, they ONLY way things will change, is to change the T&C's to compete with other ME options.....which would make it a realistic option when considering a career in the sandpit.
However this IS NOT going to happen any time soon.......unfortunately:bored:

[charly-viktor]

Hi Guys! If there is really a lack of ATC-Personal in Doha somebody maybe has an email-address for a interested controller? Cheers Charly-Viktor
P.S. I have read the word of warning

[CuitoCuanavale]

Charly-Viktor & Punchespilot (incidently, love the nether-world pseudonym!! and unfortunately this does not speak to your original question of inter - ATSU coordination ref speed assignments...believe previous contributors answered adequately).

This is cliche'd I know, but working abroad (In the ME - for this thread, in particular...Qatar) is what you make of it. Challenging and frustrating...hell yeah, which career/job aint??...skills tested and honed??...absolutely.

Want sterilized perfection??...go watch "The Sound of Music" or Harrisons version of "My Fair Lady".

Take cognizance of the fact that working in another country is already out of your comfort zone. If you expect everything to quite literally run in parrallel to what you are accustomed to in your own country (Company)...not gonna happen!! A multitude of other reasons will also test your resolve, resilience and ultimately your level of maturity. If you battle with any of the aforementioned being tested...stay where you are!!

I am not intending any overtly pro or anti Doha paradigms to be taken from this - on the contrary, come here informed!! Use the search feature on this site related to your interest and if you know anyone here - ask questions. After this, if you do decide to uproot and come here and then down the line evolve into a bleating lamb...well, being adult and discerning and all that...!!...

Your most powerful tool at your disposal, yet so often not recognized as such...CHOICE!! Your comfort zone of Salary protection and Job security once you resign from your home country post is w.i.e. now firmly in your hands. Most ANSP's are parastatal and thus have pension scheme's, Medical Aid's etc, etc...resignation waivers those benefits!!...recognize that from the GetGo!!. I view working in the ME on a contract basis as being akin to self emplyment. Quite simply what I mean by this is, YOU and now nobody else is now either the creditor or debtor of critique and progress, where-as previously a fairly large portion there-of could be dumped on the ANSP. When reviewing a contract, ensure everything you think is important to you is IN the contract!! .......not as an aside, i.e....in an accompanying e-mail or verbal communication. If it is not IN THE CONTRACT that YOU signed...and you ultimately dont receive it...dont know what to tell you other than...as an adult, kinda silly, short sighted and naive. Now an entire debate could evolve about gentlemans agreement etc, etc....semantics and not binding. Again, quite simply choice!!...if it is important to you and you know other ANSP's in the region provide it, negotiate it into the contract. If that does not happen...simply dont sign the contract...and yes, it is literally as simple as that. When purchasing a vehicle, house or any other contract orientated agreement...dont you always review what you want/need..then negotiate and then when content, sign?? If I want A,B,C,D and E...but only A through D is in the contract, but E gets offerred my way either verbally or in any other format other than the contract...should I expect E being an absolute??...I know semantics will get a lot of attention here and the whole verbal contracts are binding etc, etc The surgical truth of it is, whats in the contract is what you can expect...what is offerred via any other medium may or may not materialise. This does NOT translate into it absolutely not being offerred....not at all, just remember that your contract content is the absolute. If what IS in your contract ultimately is not forth-coming...then yes, you certainly have a reason to bemoan the ANSP.

I have been here some 8yrs now and there have been good times and some unbelievably frustrating periods, ...am I harbouring any regrets...absolutely not...why??...possible pedantry interpretation aside...its called living your life and getting on with it.

Some might agree with my perspective and others will not (so many semantics to play with and hairs to split...ooopss!!)...again, its all about choice.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<With regards to the tower, the approach controllers seem not to be tower rated? >>

Nothing unusual - they aren't at Heathrow and several other large UK airports.

[charly-viktor]

Hi Cuito!
You are not the only one with experience in the sand pit. I have been there and at a lot of other places. No offence. You are right it is different down there and everybody going down there should be aware of it. It can be great and there can be a lot of frustration. The rules are not always that clear and fair. I have seen an expat being laid off due a mapp a national was responsible for. ME is not old Europe with labor units having more power than company management fighting for their members (and more often for their own power and medieval privileges) like the big mother hen regardless costs and sense. Down there you have to look about yourself and I think it should be like that. You have to forge your own destiny.
Thanks for the posting and best rgds
Charly-viktor
P.S. If you have the contact email of DOHA be so kind and post it – many people are interested in it!:ok:

[Punchespilot]

Nice positive replies.

Yesterday an A320 which put out a mayday call landed in Doha at 0900 local.

What the hell was the tower controller doing? What was the controllers mental picture? I’m sorry, BUT when you have an aircraft on the approach {inside 15 DME} would you not expect that aircraft to have priority with the airfield, the radio etc. That would be my thinking.

The tower controller constantly got as many aircraft airborne and again in Doha there was only one frequency in use STILL with aircraft looking for push and airways clearance AND on top of that their clearance was passed { a stby , emergency in progress would of painting a picture}

The last departure was when the 320 was inside 7 DME.


ATCO perspective pls..


(http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/462055-etihad-emergency-into-doha-qatar.html)

[Punchespilot]

Also, like to reiterate one point, the majority of controllers in Doha are of excellent standard. It’s a pity some controllers there don’t share the same professialism or share some similarities from them. {Only a few}

Maybe too much sheesha?! :O

[CuitoCuanavale]

Charly-Viktor – ref your post, no offence taken. Hope answers helped.

Punchespilot – was not on duty. Have a brief outline of what transpired. All this is best directed to our Safety Manager at OTBD ATSU.

AS there is still a ‘haze’ of sorts out there ref Doha status…based on current Bahrain AIP information and only current Bahrain AIP info, Bahrain is the governing Area/En-route (UIR) FIR, with Doha as a subservient Approach Control (Radar)unit. Yes Doha has its own sovereignty and airspace…it currently does not have its own FIR…that is Bahrain’s. Nothing watershed here at all…all this is available in Bahrain AIP and has been for well over 20yrs now. Doha Approach Control and Aerodrome Control are executed from Doha.

Ref the contracts at Doha; - As stated previously, what has and still amazes me, is the frivolous abandon with which important documents are often reviewed. Again, by this I am referring to our over analytical, near ‘anal’ approach to contracts that bind us financially…in particular HP agreements relating to Vehicles etc, etc…or even mortgages…How often haven’t I heard the following mouthed off by some of my colleagues over the years in my career..;-“…and I got that in writing!!, in BLACK and WHITE..yeah…let them just try and pull a fast one now…!!” , Or “….I am covered, I insisted they put XX, and BB, and CC in the contract….insisted on that,… or said I was going elsewhere….and they did!!”, Or “…don’t accept that!!, they are obliged to, it is part of the blah blah wakka-wakka fishpaste Act…. etc, etc….insist that they put that in BLACK and WHITE in the contract so they cannot renege at a later stage….!! - …And that is what I have seen as what one can only term a perceived discerning no nonsense approach to our intricate understanding of contracts, contracts as basic as your average garden variety HP or the like!!! Yes, we certainly are no pushovers when it comes to understanding and reviewing contracts.

Yet, when it comes to THE most important contract of our lives…the one that governs our actual livelihood/income/survival…describe it as you wish…for some reason we turn into Homer Simpson and suffer innumerable ‘Doh’ moments down the line when we react angrily to what we perceive to be withheld and important and yet DID NOT insist it be negotiated into the contract!!

Yet the reality of the situation is more often than not, the issue causing all the anger and frustration is something that was mentioned over the phone or as a possibility in an e-mail accompanying a job offer (Contract)!! Again,…this does not mean that, that particular issue/requirement will not be forthcoming…on the contrary, it normally HAS been forthcoming…well, in my experience anyway.

Remember, and there is no scientific insight required here…or intense holistic knowledge of how contracts work…a simple, but extremely accurate rule of thumb is this;- If it IS in the contract you WILL get it!! I also suggest you review the Qatari Labour Law as well. It is available through any search engine online without charge and is regularly updated.

On the operational front, the national airline of Qatar is expanding at a phenomenal rate; as a consequence the peninsula of Qatar is now firmly ‘on-the-map’ – so International recognition, which has many faces and forms, is growing at an alarming rate.

This said, naturally the challenges facing any controller working at Doha, be it Aerodrome or Appraoch are at times ‘everest’ like. This steep learning curve for most is what is slowly, but surely evolving the Doha controller into someone unique…in particular when it comes to Multi-Tasking skills!! To this day, I am never at a loss of pride in witnessing what individuals are capable of…irrespective of age, sex or nationality. This is naturally bias, and as such will understand any recriminations…however, what I have seen elsewhere and what I see at Doha, ….makes me very proud of my colleagues and their day-to-day achievements!!

[ferris]

Punches- now you are just having a go at the standard of controller in Doha.
RE: The Said Incident. How about we look at it from another angle. Let's say the "mayday" was one of those drunk-pax-i-have-a-bomb-scenarios where everyone knows it's not but has to be treated as an emergency. How about the controller knows the airport is going to be in disarray after the arrival, so is actually putting her ass in a sling and trying to get as many away as possible before the inevitable delays. Is that good or bad? Clearly depends on how you view these things. Maybe if the inbound was on fire, it would've proceeded differently? I hope the nuances aren't lost on you here.

Also, like to reiterate one point, the majority of controllers in Doha are of excellent standard. It’s a pity some controllers there don’t share the same professialism {sic} or share some similarities from them. {Only a few} Lets substitute the word "pilot" for "controllers", and the 'majority' would be debatable.
Cheers.

[White Knight]

Quote:
Also, like to reiterate one point, the majority of controllers in Doha are of excellent standard. It’s a pity some controllers there don’t share the same professialism {sic} or share some similarities from them. {Only a few}
Lets substitute the word "pilot" for "controllers", and the 'majority' would be debatable.
Cheers.

Ho hum....

What are you trying to say here ground-gripper?

Sincerely,

Pilot:E

[ferris]

Oh, I think you get my drift, WK. :8

[Punchespilot]

Hi ferris.

Not having a go at ATC . I have said you do generally a good job.

reference to the comment you made
" lets look from another angle. Let's say the "mayday" was one of those drunk-pax-i-have-a-bomb-scenarios"

That’s a presumption ? You are still sending traffic off on departure when the said aircraft is on short final...

Err on the side of caution or look at the scenario differntly, if a departing aircraft rejected T/O at high speed the runway would most likely be blocked correct? Saying that what if the Mayday was in fact a real Mayday call, what happens then?? They divert is it?
Would you not consider safer they be on the ground... A small bit of backup of AC on taxiways etc would not cause a major delay .

[ferris]

There's no need to look at the scenario differently, hint hint, so no need for the egg-sucking lesson.

[Rule3]

Punches..... I am a tad confused.
Since when has inside 7DME been considered "SHORT FINAL?"

[Punchespilot]

Thanks rule3.
Should of being Final. My fault.


So am I correct so in saying a crew of an aircraft that has transmitted a mayday call will fly an approach to land while aircraft are continuing to line up and TO.
Would that be the general consesious? {Referring to all airports}

[topdrop]

So am I correct so in saying a crew of an aircraft that has transmitted a mayday call will fly an approach to land while aircraft are continuing to line up and TO.
Would that be the general consesious? {Referring to all airports} Yes, as long as the departing aircraft will not delay the arriving aircraft.

[ron83]

What's the point arguing about it?
It all should be written in Local procedures. In place where I'm now if any aircraft declares mayday,departures and arrivals shall be suspended 15 minutes prior to arrival of emergency traffic.

[Rule3]

ron83....

Surely that doesn't include Medical and Fuel emergencies.

[ron83]

Surely that doesn't include Medical and Fuel emergencies.

Basically no,but I do suppose if pilot calls Mayday stating short of fuel,departures and arrivals will be suspended,since it says whenever it's mayday...
But again at the end of a day, I'll provide priority and that's it, it's up to TWR sup to decide suspend or not. But till today indeed wasn't suspended for medical and fuel.

[2control]

How many ATCO's do you need when the new airport opens?
How many ATCO's do you have today?
Have you had any training for the new airport?
Will it be mixed operations on both runways?
Any info you would like to share about the new airport?