Will I ever go solo?

[Quinze]

Hi all,
I am a student pilot with about 36 hours in a Tecnam, aiming for a PPL. I'm on my second flight school now (the first one was a notorious rip-off joint) with about 8 hours at the new school, and I've flown with several different instructors.

The problem is, I am about to give up because I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. All of the instructors say things like "you're getting there" but there is no indication of if/when I will ever go solo, nor has anyone suggested I take any written exams, etc.

I think 36 hours is a heck of a lot to not even have a GFPT. I have flown with friends (off the record) who can't believe I haven't even soloed yet. My bank account is running dry and I can't afford to keep doing circuits around the same airport for the next 100 years. Could anyone please shed some light on to what is going on? Thanks in advance.

[transmitforDF]

36 hours without going solo? I just completed mine 2 weeks ago on 12 with a 5 yr break in between.

Sounds like you need to put your foot down and get some answers you're the paying customer. The main problem here is that you mention that you have a set of instructors, my best advice is stick to one for the rest of your training. With a group of them there's obviously been a breakdown in communication and structure to your lessons. Between them they are most likely unaware of whose done what and when and how far you are. This mess is only going to cost you more so its vital you start taking some control.

All the best. Tim

[Pace]

Quince

We have had posts a little like this before. If you have a concern then TALK! dont bottle it up but have a chat with the CFI explain you have a lot of hours (36) and why are you not solo yet? Also explain that you are getting demoralised!!!
There are many reasons which may not be to do with your piloting skills or lack of them!
Usually weather related.
Even if the instructors are not happy to sign you off solo with 36 hours you should expect to know WHY!!! identify the problem and sort a solution.
So TALK please :ugh:

Pace

[Ds3]

I'm far from experienced, but if I was in your situation I'd certainly be demanding answers. If it's an issue with your progress you need to know exactly what it is so you can work on improving it. If it's not you, then you need to know what it is and what can be done to mitigate it.

If I get to 36 hours in and haven't solo'd I'll be very disappointed. I'm only 4.5 hours in but have taken off on my last two lessons so feel I'm making reasonable progress. Stalling tomorrow, which I'm not quite so keen about!!

[WILCO.XMG]

That is disappointing from your flight school re the soloing.

But for exams take the initiative your self. These flight schools will not take your hand.

[FANS]

how many times a week do you fly and what type of airport is it? i.e. how many months is your 36 hrs over ?

[Pull what]

Its a very poor flying school that lets any student go past 12 hours (IMHO) before going first solo without sitting down with the student and discussing the training programme and what a can be done to help. Any flying school that allows 36 hours to elapse before any such input for my money is next to useless. You are paying them to teach you to fly-clearly they are not.

[Pull what]

Terry what is it that actually worries you about turbulence and if you experinced the same violent movement in a car on rough terain would it frighten you in the same way

[Pace]

Quinze

Reading your initial post where your friends have ridden along and cannot believe you have soloed yet I think in your position I would be shouting and screaming for an explanation.
Flying is a very expensive business and it is your money that is being blead away not your flying clubs!
I soloed at 8 hrs probably too early, an organisational mistake and many moons ago. How I made it round only God knows :E
There will be plenty here who will publish their earliest solo hours record.
There will be plenty who will claim that you will solo in good time when you are ready and thats it unimportant.
I knew one guy who didnt solo till 60 plus hours but he was a pensioner quite happy to trundle along with an instructor.
For a fit reasonably young person anything over 20 hours and something is going wrong.
Either you are being ripped off or you have jumped from one instructor/club to another or the weather has been crap.
If its a flying problem then its your instructors duty to safeguard your money, identify the problem early and sort it.
SHOUT!!!!

Pace

[Whopity]

Firstly, you should check to see if your training has been properly documented i.e. each flight has been recorded together with comments regarding your performance. Has the training followed the published syllabus, and if not why not? Which exercises have you had to repeat, how many times, and what are the reasons given. Training records will either identify your weak areas, or alternatively, will show up the organisation training you as not doing the job properly. Have you been debriefed after each flight, and have you ever been asked to sign the debrief to acknowledge that you have been told about your performance and any shortcomings?

[IO540]

Socal - give people a break.

I've been kicking around this scene for only 11 years and I have seen several 100+ hour non-PPLs, some crooked instructors who milked a student for all they could (works especially well with female students), and some basically ineffective instructors.

A novice can't spot any of this.

36 hours without going solo is a bit long but not outrageous, especially if somebody is a bit older. If other stuff (Whopity's post) is taken care of then I would change the instructor. Often there is a personality issue; a lot of instructors are pretty aggressive, while some are just very nervous and keep grabbing the controls, etc.

[bingofuel]

When doing circuit flying, have you flown three consecutive circuits 'totally' unassited by your instructor?
If you can honestly say 'yes' then it is certainly time to ask to see your student record and discuss it with the Chief Instructor.

[BabyBear]

IO540, I tend to agree with Socal.

The skill level or length of time to solo (whether 36hrs or 100hrs) is not an issue, what is questionable is the thought processes that allow an individual, who is unhappy with the situation, to arrive at this point without having questioned it enroute.

There certainly seems to be issues with the approach to getting his PPL.

BB

[Pace]

The skill level or length of time to solo (whether 36hrs or 100hrs) is not an issue

BabyBear

I do think 36 hrs to solo IS AN ISSUE

Ok as stated there are some especially old student pilots who dont really care whether they achieve solo or not! They enjoy the instruction and their weekly flight but dont have any real ambition. One day they think why not and do go solo at high hours.

There are younger pilots who have real problems? Who stick with flying for the wrong reasons and who are not safe and probably never will be.
That is an instructor/ CFI problem to tell them that they will never make the grade and to take up something else.

There are students who are not naturals and need more work but again thats an instructor/CFI problem.

There maybe students who have stop/ started over the years stopping before they achieve solo and restarting meaning the hours build.

The wealthy student who wants to fly twice a week regardless of weather and takes up flying at the wrong time of year?

But the reasonably young pilot, cash strapped with good instructors and a good attitude to flying should never take 36 hrs to solo

Pace

[The500man]

Quinze, can I ask how many of the hours you have flown are in the circuit? Presumably you've done all the basic handling and emergencies before really circuit bashing, but have you done anything else? Also when you changed schools did they start you from scratch again or try to pick up where you were and continue from that?

There are many factors that can contribute to hours in the sky prior to going solo, for example longish transits to the training area. What kind of place are you flying at? Is it a busy airport or a farm strip?

If you were doing fine until getting into the circuit, I suggest you find a very old and experienced instructor and see where you are really at. I've flown with instructors that flew with me in the circuit and then said that I was getting there, and I think they are time wasters. You need to find an instructor that instructs because they enjoy it, and isn't looking to put hours in his/ her log book.

[Pace]

SoCal

I also find it strange that Quinze the author of this thread has not come back and responded or added more detail to what was his question and thread.
Without more detail from him as to why he is up at 36 hours and has not asked either his instructors or CFI is odd especially as its his pocket which is hurting?

Pace

[Quinze]

Thanks for your posts everyone. To answer 500Man, The airfield isn't quite a farm strip but it's a single runway, non-controlled affair. We've done stalls, spins, etc. but no other emergency procedures (i.e. no engine failure or simulated forced landings, etc). The vast majority of my hours have been in the circuits, as the training area is not that far away. I wish that were the reason for the ridiculous number of hours, but it isn't...

Oh yeah, when I changed schools they taught some new things but I don't feel like I'm learning anything new anymore...just circuits, circuits, and more circuits...

[dan_vector]

Hi there. I've recently just passed the skills test and know what hours and hours of circuits feels like! But as others have said there does seem to be something going awry.

It is time to make an appointment with the FI and CFI and discuss your progress and find out what the key issues are.

Bear in mind that some schools won't let you solo unless you have the air law exam passed.

The school I learnt to fly at left the exams completely down to me to manage, when I had studied and felt comfortable I took the exam. Simple. For the record I solo'd at 12hrs.

Also by the time I had about 4 hrs in the circuit I asked to go and do some GH and a bit of basic Nav when I went back to the circuit I managed 3 unaided circuits and to my surprise the FI jumped out and let me solo. Maybe you could try that to take the pressure off for a while?

I think you need to show some initiative and ask them what's going on for your own sanity if nothing else!

Good luck!

[Pace]

Hi thanks so much for your messages--helped me NARROWLY avoid the same situation. And nearly 30 hours and no hint of a solo, when I feel reasonably confident. (In fact, I was told my performance was slipping). I was beginning to wonder if he was ripping me off. May go to YRED Aeroclub instead.

Something is not adding up? You have only made 3 posts at pprune 2 here one the above regarding a crooked Australian flying club.
Ok nothing wrong with 3 posts if your new but noted when you came out of the above club you had completed 30 hrs which leaves 6 hrs for your new club.
What is the real deal regarding your training to date?

Pace

[BabyBear]

Pace, Socal hit the nail spot on in explaining my point. As you have now posted something doesn't add up.

Seems to me someone that has trouble understanding how to deal with such a situation shouldn't be flying.

BB

[Quinze]

Geez--I wish I had the time on my hands to trawl around online forums for opportunities to slang junior pilots!

If you want to be helpful, I sincerely appreciate your input--if not, go busy yourself some other way. Surely you can find a more constructive way to spend your time.

[Milton1995]

If you want to be helpful, I sincerely appreciate your input--if not, go busy yourself some other way. Surely you can find a more constructive way to spend your time.

Hear, Hear. :ok:

[BabyBear]

Quinze, I do not believe simply agreeing with you that the schools you have attended and the instructors you have had are 100% to blame is doing you any favours.

Yes you may have been unfortunate in your choices to date and most here will sympathise with you on that score. However, to get to 36hrs and have to come to a forum to be advised to go talk to the CFI does leave one questioning your train of thought.

The intention is not to berate you, but actually to help by simply telling it as it is. You can choose to take the advice in the interest of making progress and getting your ppl, or you can continue to point the finger of blame in other directions, continue to wallow in self pity and ultimately give up, as you have indicated you may do!

I recommend the former for 2 reasons:

1) the years of pleasure you will eventually get will very quickly dilute the experience to date
2) in years to come you will regret quitting.

Best of luck.

BB

[Pilot DAR]

I am not an instructor, but my two cents worth anyway....

Yes, a conversation would appear to be in order - prepare to take a few notes. Your instructor must think something is missing/inadequate in your skills. If you have yet to be trained in engine failures, that would be one important thing! You instructor has the responsibility and opportunity to assure that you are not sent first solo until the conditions align well for you (but cannot guarantee an engine which will run the whole way 'round!)

I would expect that there is a skills checklist which must be filled before first solo - what's not checked in your case?

At this phase in your training, avoid receiving training from multiple instructors.

Good luck, let us know how it works out....

[Pace]

Quince

Come on :ugh: are you one of these people who blame everything but yourself for your own mistakes ??

You posted a problem in a very vague fashion and many here with the lack of detail you supplied had to second guess the problem.

You then jump late back in the forum and warble on about the nature of the airfield again without supplying any detail of what your problems have been in not being sent solo after 36 hrs.
What are we supposed to do ? Gaze into a crystal ball!

Have you discussed the instructors you have had? Have you detailed your path to 36 hrs. Have you passed on conversations where problems with your flying or attitude have been discussed? Have you explained why you have not brought this up with the CFI? Have you discussed reasons why you feel the club are rip off merchants? NO NO NO !

We are all still clueless to the extent that some of us are at a loss as to why you are here?

So now your only response is to post being offensive to those who have tried to help!

GROW UP!

Pace

[mary meagher]

However, there are some people who will never never never go solo. And some have gone solo who should have been advised to take up golf.

I have had in a long career five students, two women, three men, who seem to be missing a circuit in the brain. After struggling with a father and son, aged 40 and 20 respectively, who seemed to be deteriorating over a weeks course, I asked the highly experienced Chief Flying Instructor to fly with them. I was beginning to think it was my instructing at fault! CFI told me that these two individuals would/should never go solo, and it was possibly hereditary!

Another chap did go solo, and frightened us on a regular basis, and was finally asked to give it up. And the two women displayed serious lack of concentration. On the ground as well as in the air. Dear me.

[TractorBoy]

Quinze - first of all I can't believe the level of hostility that some people are directing at you. OK so you're a new poster and might not have provided in-depth analysis regarding your problem and it has rung alarm bells with some people, but you should be given the benefit of the doubt!

Anyway - back to your problem. I'd be interested to know more about your previous school. I noticed you posted on another thread about it and some people are even suggesting that they weren't qualified to teach GA! (if thats the same school)

Even if they were - don't forget that your new school has only seen you for 8 hours. They have to satisfy themselves that you're OK to fly before sending you solo. They haven't been involved in your development up to this point. If your previous school was as ropey as you say, then they may have doubts about the quality of training you have received. Secondly, its not a good idea to have several instructors (especially in just 8 hours). Find one you like and stick to them!

However, there are a few comments I agree with.

1. If you're not happy about something, go and ask. Make a noise! Its your cash and its expensive enough at the best of times.

2. Learning to fly is a very proactive discipline. You should not expect to be prompted to do your ground exams. You know you have to do them. If they do ground school, then sign up. If they don't, get on and do it yourself or find someone that can teach you. You must learn to take decisions yourself. When you're on your own at 5000ft and the engines developing a problem, there's no one to hold your hand!

Hope thats slightly more helpful than some of the other responses you've had.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

When you're on your own at 5000ft and the engines developing a problem ...
... you've got all the time in the world.

It's when it happens at 500ft that it gets interesting.

[Intercepted]

When you're on your own at 5000ft and the engines developing a problem ... ... you've got all the time in the world.

....if you are not imc on top:eek:

[rogcal]

The thing this thread has highlighted is the lengths some training outfits will go to too rip people off.

I was fortunate enough to be taught by an honest man who sent me off on my own after 4 and a half hours (honest enough to say "I don't think you'll kill yourself") and have only met one rip-off merchant since then in the last 35 years of flying.

I can say rip-off because that was what it was and no getting away from the fact.

I spent 5 hours all in the circuit with this guy without once being allowed to complete a full circuit without him interfering in some way i.e. adjusting throttle/trim, taking control without warning and releasing back to me without warning and a multitude of other little things that got me doubting my own abilities.

The only reason I was undertaking this training was to gain a microlight rating on my NPPL which I'd gotten in exchange for my old lifetime CAA PPL

I didn't doubt my capabilities as I'd just done a GST to revalidate and was flying back and forth to this training school in my Tomahawk.

Initially, I thought a couple of hours would do it but boy was I mistaken and how on earth did I allow myself to get sucked in to this instructor's guile and spell.

I'd understand if I was converting to flexwing but it was a simple 3-axis type that if it had any unusual aspects to it's performance it was it's tendency, like many 3-axis microlights, to float on, something that is easy to contend with after a couple of landings.

So, from my experience, it can be easy to become beguiled by an instructor if you're not careful and even this sly old fox got caught out.

Went elsewhere a couple of months later and got my rating after 2 hours instruction which mostly involved bimbling around for 90 minutes doing some local sightseeing after my instructor had satisfied himself of my proficiency in the first half hour.

I don't know where to begin with identifying good instructors/flying schools from the rip-off merchants but asking questions at an early stage and keep on asking them has got to be a sensible approach to this issue.

[StillStanding]

Well, here's my story...

I went 24 frustrating hours before I went solo. I think when I got to 14-15 hours I was getting worried and asked my instructor what I was doing wrong. He told me to persevere, I was nearly there and some time soon everything would just 'click'. Well it didn't seem to, and I was seriously considering throwing the towel in at 20 hours.

But then I had some business in the US, and found a flight school over there. I just went flying with an instructor for a couple of hours, he told me where to fly and talked on the radio. I just enjoyed the controls and flying somewhere for lunch.

I got back to the UK and a couple of hours later I was solo. In my mind the hours and hours of frustrating circuit practice getting nowhere were the problem. I'd suggest to anyone having problems, just to ask their instructor to take them "flying", fly somewhere, land away for a break. Come back refreshed and motivated.

[Mimpe]

quinze....check the syllabus to see that you have been passed on all the pre solo requirements.

Go and talk directly to the CFI. I'm interested in the fact you havent done engine failures yet. When you are asked to learn things before lessons , make a point of getting on top of memory items and actively demonstrating your knowledge.

You should get a recommendation regarding the best instructor for you, and stick with that instructor.

Make a point of getting an effective debrief after each flight, and habbitually debrief yourself.

I was 17 hours to solo, and I knew I could have gone earlier, but the young instructor at the time was new at it, and was just being carefull.

Make sure its not attitudinal, but I doubt that. What is your age may I ask?

[foxmoth]

First, yes talk to the CFI.
Second, get all the pre solo stuff out of the way - exams the school needs before solo, EFATO etc.
Then I go with Also by the time I had about 4 hrs in the circuit I asked to go and do some GH and a bit of basic Nav when I went back to the circuit I managed 3 unaided circuits and to my surprise the FI jumped out and let me solo. I had a student I had inherited with over 60 hours, had flown with other instructors including the deputy CFI and all these had recommended he pack in took him out of the circuit and did some GH with just a few circuits at the end of each trip and he got solo OK.
Good luck:ok:

[DiamondC]

With a good instructor, maybe we would all solo in less than a specified number of hours. But a range of factors come into it (weather, airfield, instructor, student, lesson frequency, ....) What is most important is not the hours but the reasons.

Some suggestions:
- Stick with one instructor. They will be able to monitor your progress better and understand which areas are going well and which need work. Everyone has their own style and if you change instructors you are going to get lots of different advice.
- Ask for a list of skills required to solo and check off the ones that are complete. Then make sure that future lessons are focussed on the areas you still need to work on.
- Move on with other skills like navigation. It will improve your confidence in your flying (there's more than just circuits) and take the pressure off. Going around and around in the circuit can be demoralising.
- After a lesson, ask the instructor to spend time with you going over what needs to be improved and what to prepare for next time. That way you can make the best use of your lessons.

Stick with it, and good luck. I started flying lessons 15 years ago, was in a similar situation to you, and gave it up. Two years ago I went back to it, had a completely different experience (even if I was not the speediest to solo!) and have my PPL.

[IO540]

In my mind the hours and hours of frustrating circuit practice getting nowhere were the problem. I'd suggest to anyone having problems, just to ask their instructor to take them "flying", fly somewhere, land away for a break. Come back refreshed and motivated.

I couldn't agree more.

In this country there is such heavy emphasis on banging circuits. The student is mostly mentally overloaded and sweating like a pig, and learning very little.

Much better to do a landing (or a go-around) and then fly off somewhere for 10 minutes, relax, let the events sink in, then come back for another one.

[Crash one]

Not having flown for a month I went out today & did 3 touch & go, all mediocre, bouncy,too long, went out the circuit for 30mins & chucked it about a bit, came back & did two 3 point greasers. :hmm:

[AdamFrisch]

Crash, it's such a perishable skill. I haven't flown for over a month and a half in my aircraft now and all the little routines, quirks and skills will be if not lost, at least half forgotten.

[Crash one]

Adam. Absolutely, took off with no flaps, not a problem but not my intention, carb heat on during go around, etc. Nothing serious but??

[Gertrude the Wombat]

carb heat on during go around
Think I've only done that once ... in a floatplane, I was thinking about other things, like not capsizing for example. Caught it on the downwind checks, instructor congratulated me (not being sarcastic, I'm pretty sure).

[AdamFrisch]

Had a Cessna full up with friends and thought the climbout was anaemic to say the least - friction lock not on and the throttle had vibrated out... I often forget to put up flap up after takeoff and I've even almost forgotten to put the gear down when I was overloaded on a checkride (no less)... And this is when I'm in practice and have flown recently:}:ok:

When I get my plane back from annual next week I immediately need to fly a xcountry 2 hrs to get it back home. After the test flight (to see that everything works properly) I'll make sure to do a couple of circuits to nail the visual references, speeds, etc before I set off.

[Crash one]

Don't forget to take the pitot cover off, I've been round the circuit twice with a block of wood over it till I hung a flag off an Exocet on it!!:ugh: