Virgin & VIPA - pay rise

[myshoutcaptain]

PlaneTalking - Friday 12th August.

Virgin Australia agrees to 28% pilot pay rise
August 12, 2011 – 12:32 am, by Ben Sandilands
In stark contrast to the situation at Qantas, former Qantas executive GM John Borghetti, and VIPA, which covers the largest number of Virgin Australia pilots, have reached an enterprise agreement which provides for pay rises of up to 28%.

In a statement VIPA says:

VIPA the union representing Virgin Australia and V Australia pilots, has secured pay rises of up to 28% for its members at Virgin, with its first enterprise agreement.

The agreement took almost two years to negotiate and offers significant improvement over the current common law contracts members were under.

VIPA is the largest pilot union in the Virgin Australia group and the agreement is to be voted on by pilots over the next two weeks.

VIPA Executive Director Simon O’Hara said today that the union hoped the agreement was the beginning of a professional and collaborative approach with Virgin regarding industrial relations issues with pilots.

“VIPA acknowledges that this good result would not have occurred if not for the imprimatur of the CEO, Mr. John Borghetti. There is no doubt that Mr Borghetti’s arrival ushered in a new era of industrial relations within the Virgin Australia Group.”

“VIPA supports the new CEO and also his mature approach to organizational and cultural change.”

In addition to the pay rise, the agreement provides for a comprehensive system for consultation between management and pilots, the introduction of a credit system, the cornerstone of this agreement, that measures overtime and work performed, a new insurance system for pilots and back-pay pay rises from 1 July if the agreement is voted up.

“This document represents the framework for the future and as such it is critically important that we achieved good structure and robust processes to underpin the Industrial relationship moving forward,” Mr O’Hara said.

The deal doesn’t put Virgin Australia at a cost disadvantage to Qantas, where the pilots are seeking annual rises of 2.5% over the three year period of their as yet unresolved enterprise agreement, as it fills in some of the existing pay differentials between both carriers.

The ‘stark’ differences are in the relationship between the Virgin Australia management and its pilots and engineers, where CEO John Borghetti is committed to increasing the use of Australian based employees to the maximum possible level, while Qantas is determined to shift jobs and assets off-shore and rotate through Australia flight and cabin crew paid under the terms and conditions of the labor laws of which ever country its foreign entities are based.

Qantas has previously said it will announce cuts to its Qantas international operations and more details concerning a proposed Asia based full service carrier and new transfers of business to international alliances on August 24.

It has refused to negotiate a guarantee sought by its pilot union AIPA, under which Qantas aircraft would always be flown by Australian based and trained flight crew, on the grounds that this would be a veto against change and innovation.

Earlier this week AIPA President, Captain Barry Jackson, told its annual dinner that Qantas regarded its experienced pilots as ‘inconvenient heroes’ in relation to recent in-flight crises involving the engine disintegration on an A380 near Singapore last November, and earlier incidents involving a temporarily out of control A330 that made an emergency landing at Learmonth, and the damaging decompression of a Boeing 747-400 prior to an emergency landing in Manila.

Jackson said the management of Qantas had destroyed in a few short years the brand value of the airline through mediocre decisions and a policy of denigrating and marginalising its pilots and maintenance engineers as being too expensively excellent for the cost cutting short term mentality that was evident at the board and executive level.

There was, he said, a lack of respect for the standards that had made Qantas a leader in aviation, and a determination to eliminate those advantages for the lesser requirements involved in meeting so-called world’s best practice when the Australian practices of Qantas had been superior.

He told the annual dinner of AIPA that the tradition of 90 years of excellence at Qantas deserved better than to be destroyed by a management that had failed to engage with its employees, or to grasp the importance of continuing the highest standards of pilot training and engineering excellence.

Jackson said AIPA was firmly committed to avoiding inconveniencing Qantas passengers through industrial action but would take important initiatives after the August 24 announcements to protect and save the meaning of Qantas to Australian travellers.

The developments at Virgin Australia are expected to strengthen AIPA in the further pursuit of a guarantee that Qantas remain genuinely Australian, instead of a sham branding exercise like the Qantas painted Jetconnect trans Tasman 737 services, or the various efforts Jetstar has made to pay pilots New Zealand wages for flying in Australia or hang Thai cabin crew off the end of 20 hour shifts to work domestic sectors in this country.

[nitpicker330]

Good news :ok:

[G Limit]

Agreed nitpicker. Any word on the rumours I've been hearing about fleet pay?

[tenretni]

Well done guys and more power to you.

Borghetti is showing himself to be a man of integrity and someone who realises the value of his licensed technical staff ie pilots and engineers. I wonder if he has studied the Southwest style of management?

Here at QF we have drawn the short stick with a myopic and seemingly incompetent CEO if thats what you call him! The cheap penny pinching mentality and flawed business strategy will ensure that AJ & BB go down in history as two of the most talentless and overpaid executives in QF history.

AJ & BB are your garden variety dime a dozen execs all dressed up full of rhetoric but seriously short on achievment! Funny that I was always led to believe that the huge pay packets on offer to CEO's are designed to attract the best of the best.

What happened QF. Yes you guys at the board level. Hellooooooooo any body home?

[7378FE]

Only took 26 mins to turn into another squealing like stuck pigs QF post:rolleyes:

[Duff]

Did the PB guys get a raise?

[The Bunglerat]

Pony Poo, the EBA relates only to the V-Australia boys & girls at present, & for all the issues they had with individual contracts, one thing they didn't have to do was pay for a 777 type rating - & rightly so.

We here at Virgin Australia (a.k.a. "Blue" in our former guise) have been watching the V-Oz EBA developments very closely, as no doubt it serves as a template for what we might expect when negotiations commence on our next one.

At the risk of being a hypocrite, I think the practise of paying for type ratings is just wrong, & yet I did so anyway. I did so, because there were many other aspects of accepting the job that were conducive to family & lifestyle requirements, for which accepting a job with another carrier would have been unable to provide. I was not happy about it, but to refuse the job on a matter of principle would have been cutting my nose to spite my face. Unfortunately, the precedent had been set. Would I have preferred it the other way? Absolutely. However, I don't want to start an argument or slanging match about those who pay vs those who don't.

This thread is about the EBA, & in that context (whilst it's too late for those of us already here), I would love to see us adopt the same as V-Oz - i.e. training paid by the company & employees bonded for a set period. It's the right thing to do, it's the way it should have always been, & hopefully Borghetti & the company as a whole (with input from the respective unions) will be able to negotiate a similar EBA that shows the rest of the industry that not everyone has to compete in a race to the bottom - & still be successful.

[Anthill]

I don't think that many would hold that you paid for your rating against you, Bunglerat. I applied to J* and VB but did not tick the "I will pay for rating" box. VA paid for my B777 rating as they did for every body. I never got a call for an interview from either J* or VB. Anyway, I now have 6 heavy jet type ratings and never paid for any of them---That's how it should be :ok:.

The EBA is a great step forward for the CzFOs who will now get a living wage. FOs to get pretty close to Ejet command salary too. In a nutshell:


56 day rosters and PBS :)
Overtime :).
Group seniority :hmm:.
More money :)
Increased allowances :)
3 intakes of CzFOs for the rest of the year too. I'm pretty sure that this EBA will get voted up.

[Dragun]

...and if type ratings are still covered (with bonding) by V-Australia, then surely that will set a precedent for the upcoming Virgin Australia EBA in November to have the same system.

From all accounts, fleet pay (i.e. a narrow body rate) is more likely that not in the coming agreement.

[psycho joe]

From all accounts, fleet pay (i.e. a narrow body rate) is more likely that not in the coming agreement.

Maybe the AFAP are pushing this, but didn't Vipa take a poll fairly recently and found that fleet pay was regarded with as much affection as a venereal disease? :yuk:

[grrowler]

That's probably before the realisation sinks in that they have now cleverly locked in the pay for the largest "group" aircraft at $225K (with the 737 already on $190K) and that they now have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a decent payscale for the A330, let alone the 737. Maybe they'll realise that having pockets of underpaid pilots within the group can have a detrimental effect on their own back pocket and career aspirations. Suddenly NB/ WB fleet pay seems like a good idea.

[Uncashed Pilot]

Why would they raise the salary , when they dont need to attract pilots. Or are they after JQ pilots..
Somthing fishy....

[fmcinop]

VIPA the union representing the largest number of Virgin Australia pilots??? In what world?

The usual crap from the VIPA PR machine.

Last time I checked the AFAP were also involved and managed to secure the majority of their log of claims including pay.

I love the way VIPA lay claim to single handedly being responsible for just about everything. Their news letters are always so entertaining.

Any accolade belongs to the AFAP & VIPA groups together.

[grrowler]

Any accolade belongs to the AFAP & VIPA groups together. Oh don't worry, I hold them both equally responsible...

[Angle of Attack]

Why would they raise the salary , when they dont need to attract pilots. Or are they after JQ pilots..
Somthing fishy....

Every damn airline is recruiting pilots thats why! Except QF of course! There are literally thousands of pilot jobs around at the moment worldwide.

[Dragun]

grrowler/fmcinop

A bit confused, are you saying fleet pay is likely or unlikely?

[grrowler]

Well now that the bar has been set by the V Australia EBA, the absolute best case for the A330 will be the 777 pay (ie fleet pay), innit?:ok:

[fmcinop]

Why would fleet pay for the 737/EMB receive such a luke warm reception as was the alleged result of the VIPA survey?

A lot of 737 pilots have gained their initial commands on the EMB. There are also a number of 737 FO's who will most probably do the same.

I think the company will be keen to discourage the steady stream of senior EMB pilots and check captains bidding off onto the 737 or 330 who are doing it purely for the money as the knock on cost for training is astronomical. This is also causing concern as the more experienced pilots depart leaving more junior Captains to fly with relatively inexperienced F/O's in some cases and newly appointed check captains.

A number of senior EMB pilots have admitted they would have remained on type if it were not for the $37,000 pay rise to bid across to the 737.

I don't think this issue is anywhere near dead!

[Keith Nash]

Whilst I wouldn't expect any union to talk up an opposition union, I think it would be fair to say the AFAP made a substantial contribution to the process. What's more, save for a few niggles, the bargaining reps from both unions did not let politics get in the way of a good outcome for the pilots. Well done to all involved.

And i'm a VIPA member!

[donpizmeov]

Fmc inop, You are totally right. These senior jungle jet pilots should be paid more to stay where they are. That should teach the 737 riffraff something.

I heard a very senior C172 pilot say the other day that he would not leave his grade 3 instructing position if he was paid $37000 more. Its kinda the same right?

Good work on the pay rise rise Vipa. Fingers crossed this flows through the rest Oz aviation.

[t_cas]

Opposition Union!!?

I think that you will find that both VIPA and the AFAP represent the pilot profession.

The only tangible difference being VIPA represent a very specific pilot group, i.e. the VA Group pilots; the AFAP represent a very broad base of pilots in the greater industry.

The intangible difference between these to representative bodies is the politics and agendas represented by those in the executive.

Both are unions, both purport to represent their members. To allege that these representative bodies are in opposition would only serve to support the intangible aspect of each.

I have to say that I find the mood and comments on this website do get agitated.

Some other forums like AVForums and Car racing forums are far more cordial in their discussion, even though there are numerous differences of opinion. Food for thought....

[Grey Nomad]

Good work VA VIPA.Well done.

[inandout]

Just hope the AR shows their is money to fund this, in the mean time JB should take a real close look at what is not going well on board with the new catering, at times it is a real mess and many customers are not happy as are the CC. If any management read this then get on board and take note and fix it.

[aviationboy]

Buchanan could learn a thing or two from borghetti. hint hint! :ugh:

[ohallen]

Aviation Boy,

He had that chance before and didn't learn a thing, so why would it happen now....I know he is the smartest guy in the room.

Well done JB, its nice to see yet another positive step.

[Keith Nash]

You're right, opposition was probably not the right word, competing would have been better, and there is no doubt VIPA and the AFAP have collaborated to achieve a good outcome for the pilots.

But, if you think that unions who represent the same body of workers are not competing for membership, and therfore dominance, then I would say you are mistaken. Over time, one of the two unions will become dominant, and when that happens, that union and its members will be calling the shots. The company is only humoring both unions at present because FWA legislation requires it, and they are not sure yet which union will become dominant.

That said, it was extremely encouraging to see that if there are any higher level union political issues, they haven't had an adverse effect on the EBA. Bodes well for the VB EBA I would think.

[OhForSure]

So what's the deal at V Aus now? If they were on individual contracts before, how does one quantify a "28%" increase?

What will the new salaries be for Captains, FOs and CFOs?:ok:

[waren9]

Is AFAP a signatory to the new document?

[busdriver007]

Please tell AFAP is not signatory to this agreement........They are a travesty to the Australian Aviation industry..........

[UAL Furlough]

Of note, VIPA recently welcomed their 500th member....with the total number of pilots at Virgin, I would guess that VIPA now has the majority. I for one am extremely happy with VIPA and wouldn't spend a cent on AFAP...but that's just me.

Of note, 3 Captains from Vaustralia were on the VIPA negotiating committee and top blokes, and I would guess that THEY were mainly responsible for both attaining a fantastic first EBA and maintaining a good relationship with management...something that is not easy to do.

We all owe VIPA and John Borghetti a lot of credit for this. It would not have happened without the hard work of these 3 Vaustralia/VIPA Captains and Mr. Borghetti...

What was Qantas thinking when they let him go????

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Jeez, I didn't realise Borghetti was such a hands on person. Involved in pulling off the VOZ EBA and all?

BOLLOCKS.

[Seriously]

Well your wrong:= he had alot to do with it :D unlike qantas:{ I know its not the same, but we're happy qantas no!:oh:

[Bob Hoover]

So lets clear all the bull**** aside and go straight to the point.

This EBA is good news for Virgin and the industry in general but the question is this.

When does PB get a bite of the Virgin apple or is this a new American deal only and the Mexicans get shafted.

Fly safe. :ok:

Hoov

[funnelweb]

My heart felt to the three VIPA VOZ Capts that represented us, they have done a great job and to paraphrase their words and ideals; we can all now get on with making VOZ a great international airline.

Well done those men! :ok:

[speedjet]

Of note, VIPA recently welcomed their 500th member....with the total number of pilots at Virgin, I would guess that VIPA now has the majority.

Majority?? Not necessarily.

With 958 VB pilots(based on last DOJ I have) and approx 150 VOZ pilots, less the pilots that are members of both unions I'd say both AFAP & VIPA have equal membership.

[KABOY]

So while 'The Borg' goes around shaking hands with the various union reps and politicians in Canberra with big smiles and a few back slaps, the ATR deal is undermining everything that ANY pilot union should stand for.

He has now craftily created a VOZ deal that will inevitably lead to a fleet pay scenario as the pay scales are so close.

Yep Borghetti is the maestro alright, industrially he will create two competitive groups vying for work and a fleet pay scale that AIPA has resisted for decades.

NAIVE.

[RATpin]

KABOY,QF cadet right?

[ejectx3]

Meanwhile in a slow news day, news.com.au makes a story about something that happens almost every freakin' night....
Flight targeted by laser light | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/flight-targeted-by-laser-light/story-e6frfq80-1226120915210)

[Red Jet]

And I vote for ejectx3, in the Great Annual Thread Drift Awards:D

[UAL Furlough]

Jeez, I didn't realise Borghetti was such a hands on person. Involved in pulling off the VOZ EBA and all?

BOLLOCKS.

Toulene, you could be wrong here.

Mr. Borghetti does take a hands on approach.

If you send him an e-mail, he will personally respond....

I have had him on a flight and expressed a few concerns to him...he takes notes and you get feedback from him.

When crew feedback said they wanted allowances in cash in local currency, he made it happen.

He brought in Sean Donahue from United and gave him the authority to negotiate the pilot EBA.

When things were at a stand still on the EBA, the VIPA negotating committe asked for a meeting with Mr. Borghetti, which was granted, and the road blocks to the EBA were removed.

He is a hands on guy, an airline guy, and a guy Qantas should be concerned about letting go.

My 2 cents...

[UAL Furlough]

Oh and one last thing.

I think Mr. Borghetti has one thing that most management people lack these days...LEADERSHIP.

It is a lost art among the NEW HR types....they may be good at managing, but they have zero leadership skills....Mr. Borghetti has that...He is a leader...

[fmcinop]

VIPA would have organised all that. They have claimed responsability for single handedly having done just about everything else without help or assistance from anyone.....according to them, anyway!

Best we thank them.

[ThePaperBoy]

Regardless of whether VIPA pulled it all off, Borghetti's leadership seemed to make it an easier transaction. Negotiations are never straight forward but it's been a pleasure working for the man.

[Keith Nash]

Yes, that is correct.

[fmcinop]

Yes I was taking the piss.

JB is the only reason for the changes we have seen. If that other idiot was still around and in charge none of the changes that have occurred over the last 12 months would have transpired. My point was VIPA have taken credit for most of these changes suggesting it's their superior union and negotiation skills have resulted in these dramatic changes when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management.

Still it makes for an entertaining read of their news letters.

[Keith Nash]

when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management.


Hmmmmmmmm........... Do you really think JB would have rolled out of bed one morning and decided, "gee i might give the pilots a 30% pay rise" if ther hadn't been a union.

I don't.

[Keith Nash]

when in actual fact they would have occurred anyway due solely to a change in management.


Hmmmmmmmm........... Do you really think JB would have rolled out of bed one morning and decided, "gee i might give the pilots a 30% pay rise, a credit system, a bit if overtime, some callout pay, free travel to duty, better loss of licence etc etc if ther hadn't been a union.

I don't think so.

[fmcinop]

Uh no! These changes would have occurred as part of the EBA negotiation process with or without VIPA. The tone of negotiations has certainly changes since the departure of BG.

The negotiation process proceeded as it did due to the influence and intervention of JB and not because of any amazing performance as claimed by VIPA. They never proved themselves with the previous management.

If this round of negotiation had occurred under BG we would have an entirely different outcome.

[Keith Nash]

Ok, I've got it now

You're not anti union, just anti VIPA. That's OK, we're all entitled to an opinion.

cheers

[wawoftam]

VIPA have taken a significant amount of credit for the EBA. Are they entitled to do this. I wouldn't have the faintest idea. BUT the last news letter was very disappointing in the thinly veiled attacks on the other union.
Gotta love Kingdom builders.
My 2c have a nice Day!!!!

[fmcinop]

The very reason I'm no longer a member. 95% bull**** by over exaggerating their membership, their success and their actual involvement in resolving issues.
If they only spent as much time working on their own issues and less time trying to bag the opposition they might actually he worth the membership fees.

[virginaldriver]

The very reason I'm no longer a member. 95% bull**** by over exaggerating their membership, their success and their actual involvement in resolving issues.
If they only spent as much time working on their own issues and less time trying to bag the opposition they might actually he worth the membership fee

Glad you saw the light as well :D.. I too am no longer a member of the AFAP!

[fmcinop]

I've gone back to the AFAP.

The silence emanating from VIPA during the DEC issue was amazing as was their contribution to the Senate enquiry. Oh thats right after all the big talk and bragging in the crew rooms about their meetings with the good senator they pulled out at the last minute and did not even make a submission. But then again from reading their new letter, they are all over every issue.

I attended a meeting a few years ago and the turn out was dismal to say the least. The next day and email went out stating that due to the incredible turn out they have been forced to run further meetings?? I must have missed the other guys there on the night. They then went on to claim over 400 members and over 50% of the VB pilots. When however asked to prove their claims in court they were unable to provide proof of even 200 members. From that time on I smelt a very large rat.

All they managed to prove to me was they are all talk and no action.

MY only regret is I did not see it earlier before i signed up.

[virginaldriver]

Sorry FMCinop :uhoh: I didn't read your posts properly. I just assumed when you said you'd had enough of inaction and petty infighting you were talking about the AFAP.
I consider myself the average line driver in VB and I have been around for many years. I changed from the AFAP because I was getting sick of the "its the best your going to get" line and mentality...
I can tell you the tide has well and truly turned on the AFAP.. If you don't agree with this you are in denial! Almost everyone I know has had enough and has already or about to change to VIPA.. The people I know who are pro AFAP are indeed the minority. And that could be partly attributed to sentimental feelings they have. Much like a Football team that is under performing will still have loyal supporters..
Perhaps the AFAP could learn from Virgin and change any dead meat there might be in upper management.. at least then the damage might be at least minimised? If what you are saying about VIPA is true, then I would suggest you encourage the AFAP to change leadership and start being more appealing to the pilots as a union. I honestly haven't heard too many pilots say anything bad about VIPA, however almost everyone has had enough of the AFAP :suspect:

[fmcinop]

Have a read of the VIPA media release where they admit the VA agreement would have been a much different story if still under the previous management, the same management the AFAP had to deal with over the past 11 years. They admitted a large part of the success of the agreement was due to JB himself.

Most people are happy with the majority of the current VB EBA one which was negotiated with the previous government, the same one VIPA admitted would have resulted in a much different result if still part of the negotiation with VA.

I am not the only one who has returned to the AFAP. I number of other guys have also seen through the smoke and mirrors of the VIPA PR team and have also returned to the AFAP. VIPA are quoted telling the media they have the largest number of members in the VB group and are therefor the largest unison representing that group. The only problem is a large number are members of both and the "group" including VB,VA,PB has over 1200 pilots.

Before my resignation I asked one of the VIPA guys to name 1 significant thing they have done since being approved as a union. He could only rattle of a numbers small insignificant things, most of which were issues also being handled by the AFAP.

[campdoag]

Most people are happy with the majority of the current VB EBA

You are kidding right????

You clearly must be in the BNE 737 bubble, I can assure you that the Majority of the EJET guys are not happy with the current EBA.

The drivel you are spinning appears to be nothing more than part of the AFAP's PR spin. Perhaps your on the payroll??

With 1200 flight crew in the group, 100 or so at Pac blue who cant be represented by an Aussie union and 28% of the entire group with no union representation.

With more than 500 members I know who has the majority of the group pilots onside and it aint the AFAP.............

[porch monkey]

They may not be happy campdoag, but remember they also decided to join the company under that eba. It isn't like it was forced down their throats AFTER they joined on different t's and c's. The real point becomes who can do what for the NEXT eba, which is why there are quite a few of us who have membership of both at this stage. Certainly, whether I retain both will be decided by the outcome of the upcoming negotiations, and which team does what.
BTW, I'm not suggesting they should be happy, but you have no right to piss and moan when the eba is there for you to read BEFORE you sign on the dotted line.

[The Bunglerat]

They may not be happy campdoag, but remember they also decided to join the company under that eba. It isn't like it was forced down their throats AFTER they joined on different t's and c's.

Really? What about a considerable number of new joiners, around two or so years back, who were "bullied" into switching to the E-Jet under the threat of being turfed out on the street if they didn't! Something about a reduction in 737 flying & an over-supply of drivers comes to mind...

That said, I won't dispute that there's nothing fair about the lottery that is new-hire fleet allocation. People with all levels of experience, who interviewed at the same time as each other, were allocated B737 or E-Jet for various reasons - & with a significant disparity in take-home pay. However, whilst I agree they got shafted, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: airline recruitment has always been a lottery, & the same applies to fleet allocation regardless of which organisation. Why did a new QF S/O get the A380, whilst another got the B744 or A330? Back in the AN days, how come one person got a B737 & the other one a F50? Since back in the day, someone has always been miffed that "old mate" got assigned a better aeroplane with more $$$ than he/she did. Virgin is no different.

Even so, I would like to see better T's & C's for everyone, not just a select few.

[porch monkey]

You are correct bungler, and I never said that it was fair. Those that wanted back, now are. Doesn't make up the lost cash though, of course. Had the pilot body and the afap been a little more careful with the fine print of the eba, then those drivers would not have had to go to the ejet. (Last on first off would have been exercised) However, as it was interpreted by the company, their choices were go to the ejet or exercise your democratic right to join the unemployed. Most did what was least harmful to their own interests. It is, and until we all stand united, will remain, luck of the draw. Doesn't change the general principle of "You sign it, you live with it".

P.S. Don't forget that even if they didn't want to go, those pilots got something from this company that no one else up to that time had ever received. A free type rating. So it isn't the complete bust that some would have you believe.

[campdoag]

Porch monkey you are correct in saying that;

they also decided to join the company under that eba. It isn't like it was forced down their throats

However the EBA is for a fixed term and is now set to expire on the 30th November. The vast majority of the EJET guys are unhappy with their pay and NOW IS the time (EBA negotiations) that they can bitch and moan about it!!!!

Nothing wrong with that!!!

Forget the past, lets move forward with better pay, conditions and clear progression for everyone!!!:ok:

[spocky]

Lets be sure of two things here....Firstly I don't consider for one moment that VIPA has a majority holding on the VB pilot group as many members have both AFAP and VIPA membership. Secondly, the E Jet guys knew exactly what they were getting into when they joined that fleet, just like all the commuters on the 737 out of Sydney and Melbourne. In the medium term, I would suspect that the majority of E Jet drivers will be off that type in the coming years anyway. Would I sacrifice the wages and conditions of the whole group for the sake of the E Jet pilots wages. NO !! And I have many friends that fly them. :ok::ok:

Spocky

[campdoag]

Wow...... your ignorance is baffling...:ugh:

I will just ask you this.. If the EJET fleet had the majority vote would you have the same attitude??

Reading between the lines of your contemptible post, what you seem to be saying is that you would rather see no change to the EJET deal but want your own conditions to improve....

Why????

I am under no misconception that people will only vote in for a deal that is in their own best interests but EBA negotiations are simply that negotiations...
Why wouldnt you first try to negotiate a deal that keeps everyone happy.....:ugh:

[porch monkey]

Hey doag, don't misunderstand me, I'm all for the battle ahead, and I think the embraer boys will get the pay rise they deserve. I also suspect that us 73 drivers will as a result get very little. I'm not overly concerned about that, as long as we pick up the credit system that V oz got and we don't lose anything out of the lifestyle column.....:ok:

[ad-astra]

Is there any reason why these issues cannot be discussed on our own VB Pilots web site?

[virginaldriver]

That might be the case spocky but come renewal time, I don't think many of the dual members would be renewing with both unions.. Based on general talk on the line most would choose VIPA.. Also is the AFAP perhaps counting those who have received 4 or 5 reminder notices but can't be bothered resigning as members still?

FMCinop.. acknowledging Mr Borghetti in a newsletter is not a sign of weakness. By acknowledging the good fortune in dealing with good management they are being honest and factual. Did the AFAP do this at any stage? I don't receive their correspondence so I wouldn't know. I think it's a good thing that they acknowledged Mr Borghetti.

Another thing I'd like to know is how much of the AFAP members money was spent on fighting VIPA in the courts and what could that money have done to improve the AFAP as a union? Do you have a figure? I was a member at the time and was not happy that this was occurring.

I highly doubt VIPA under it's current leadership would front the troops with a marginal agreement and say "you should vote yes, as it's the best you're going to get". No matter who was running Virgin. I'm sorry but THAT legacy has stuck with the AFAP, the only way it is going to change is with a fresh approach.. Best of luck!

[fmcinop]

How many guys at VB have said the VA EBA is a total disgrace, yet VIPA fully endorsed this one? "B scale and all". Just Like the VB EBA there comes a time when negotiations stall and there is no more progress to be made. The comment of this is a good as it is going to get was true. Just as VIPA have anounced this time around. It was then put out to vote and like it or not the majority voted yes. There are a few perpetual whiners who will never be happy but in my experience judging by the guys I see in the crew room and those I fly with and even see in the bar the vast majority of the guys and girls are more than happy.
I must just mix in circles of glass half full people.

Ps: I just had lunch with a bunch of ejet pilots and they all said they were all happy with the current EBA and knew the terms and conditions when they took the job.

[Kanga1]

fmcinop is neither Black or White, he's a shade of Gray ;)

[spocky]

Camp DOAG, I never said I didn't want E Jet guys to get a pay rise..quite the opposite!!! What I'm saying is that the majority of aircraft are boeing, and that the majority of pilots will not take a menial payrise for the sake of the Embraer. If it is a sensible payrise across the board, then everybody will be happy. :D:D:D

[34R]

What I'm saying is that the majority of aircraft are boeing, and that the majority of pilots will not take a menial payrise for the sake of the Embraer

No, what you're saying is you wont agree to your fellow colleagues enjoying a fairer remuneration package unless there is something in it for you.

Astounding!

This EBA is a great opportunity to extend a helping hand to your fellow workers, to display to the industry that you as a group are united and are above the petty "mines bigger than yours" mentality.
Not to mention, get another fleet on similar terms and conditions, and if money is all that matters to you, you have just increased your potential command slot opportunities :ouch:

[gocat]

Spocky your attitude really disappoints me....

There are a LOT of very experienced FO's on the EJET fleet that have come from a jet background. The fact that we are penalised for having this experience is my only frustration with Virgin. Comparing paychecks with people on the 737 there is on average (with overtime) a 40-50k difference in salaries. Why are you worth that more than us?

Fact - no one can move from fleet type until a 30 month freeze period is served after check to line even though we have paid for our own endorsement!

I think the majority of us are pissed the fact that someone can start after you and by stroke of luck be placed on the 737 and be earning significantly more than there college.

This is a time for all of us to work together for a better outcome for ALL Virgin Australia pilots. I just hope your selfish attitude is a minority.

What would you be saying today if you were placed on the EJET rather than the 737?

[virginaldriver]

like it or not the majority voted yes

And by what percentage was it voted yes by? 2% from memory? or was it 4%

Your arguments do not make any sense.. you're trying to steamroll a turd in the hope it might not be recognisable..

I'm sorry but there's a huge difference in saying "this is the best you're going to get" to "ok the negotiations have stalled, we're not happy with the outcome but it's up to you to vote. If your vote sends a clear message to the company then we will go back to the negotiating table with some ammunition"... I think that's what most pilots were hoping to see, and that is why the EBA was only voted up by 2% or whatever it was.. Fear tactics from the company that we would not get the EMB flying if we did not vote it in were supported by the AFAP!.. who the hell else was going to fly the EMB Jets!?

It's obvious you're an AFAP supporter to the bitter end.. you're even coming up with excuses for them despite glaringly obvious shortcomings displayed in the past. All I can say is that I wish you all the best! :sad:

[fmcinop]

There is always someone willing to shaft someone else to try an get a better deal for themselves.

It's all very sad.

Instead of in fighting about who should get paid more, how about everyone working together to get the best deal for the group as a "group". I'm flying a 330 or a 737 or an EMB so don't give a rats about anyone else isn't going to do anyone any favours.

Stick together, look after your fellow pilot and work as a team will ensure the best result for everyone.

[34R]

Interesting to note that those that did vote yes and went over to the ejet as the first group of trainers did not do so under the terms and conditions they just endorsed. They kept their 737 pay rate, why? Because nobody would have voluntarily done so on that appalling pay structure.

But as the ejet was not represented by a pilot body at the time of voting, nobody cared!

[kimir]

A lot of the e-jet drivers i've spoken to lately are on half the hours i'm on. When you look at it like that then it presents itself as a good gig. By the way i didn't vote yes to the last EBA. I am concerned about the productivity on the E jet.

[psycho joe]

Instead of in fighting about who should get paid more, how about everyone working together to get the best deal for the group as a "group".

Are you joking? That has consistantly been the mantra of VIPA, Who have been successful in working with other unions.

The AFAP on the other hand are ones trying to be Robinson Carusoe. (Or is that David Carusoe?)


"what we have here Frank..................................is a dying federation"

"Are those teethmarks on the body, Horatio"

"Yes Frank.......(put's on sunglasses)...........this was a VIPA attack"

[White and Fluffy]

So what is the latest on the EBA at Virgin Aus?

[SilverSleuth]

Absolutely nothing !

[Dragun]

A lot of the e-jet drivers i've spoken to lately are on half the hours i'm on. When you look at it like that then it presents itself as a good gig. By the way i didn't vote yes to the last EBA. I am concerned about the productivity on the E jet.

Key word: lately.

This just highlights how a current rostering pattern can change and that T&Cs should not be based on the general perception on how many hours are being currently rostered - it goes so much deeper than that. That post was at the start of September, 2011 and now FOs are doing 70-80 hours a roster. The last two rosters I've had 73 and 72 hours respectively.

[System Logic]

for the most part, things have somewhat stalled. there has been talk that the company wants to delay things until the new financial year. as far as pay is concerned, the company is offering 3% including increased productivity. Not what most of the pilot group were expecting. however, dont think the company was expecting what the pilots asked either. both unions agreeing to integrated seniority. i.e. integrate the VOZ guys based on date of joining (including the CFO's) and the PB guys at the bottom ?? they do get first crack at NZ commands though. other points of the EBA being worked out. that is all.

SL

[GAFA]

There could be some good news for new starters as both unions have been pushing to remove the requirement for pilots to pay for their endorsement and have a 24 month bond instead. It appears the company is starting to think the same way so it could be a big win any new pilots (shame 800 pilots had to pay for theirs) and way overdue.

[bowing]

so one seniority list for the entire group?
so for NZ commands will be based on seniority list?
well must be surely on less money rite?
oz to NZ

[System Logic]

bowing,
yes, all the one seniority list for all 3 groups. VAA, VOZ, and PB. when it comes to PB commands though, the list is only for PB guys. There will be wording in the EBA to protect the PB guys/girls so that they get a shot at the commands first. The pay will be the same I would imagine, but they are getting first crack. They will be tacked on to the bottom of the seniority list for whatever that is worth. VOZ guys will integrate directly into the list, and can move across for an upgrade when they can hold it. Interesting times.

SL

[romansandal]

Nothing has been formally agreed upon when it comes to GOP list integration.