Read-back requirement

[4HolerPoler]

Just a quick question; would be appreciative of some guidance - was on the descent into London yesterday, just crossed Mayfield heading for Brookmans Park and received the instruction "descend FL 160, when level reduce speed to 250 knots", I replied "descend FL 160 and Wilco on the speed" that was met with an immediate demand to readback the full ATC instruction, which I duly complied with. Does everything need to be read back? Altitudes sure, but I didn't realize that included a specific reference to the speed.

This was a learning day in a number of respects; we checked in with Essex Radar who fastidiously require the aircraft type, current ATIS confirmation as well as any current restrictions to be announced on initial contact, to be handed over to Luton Radar shortly thereafter, where I failed miserably to provide my aircraft type and was appropriately challenged in a tone that I remember the teacher using when I neglected to bring the appropriate book to class. To provide the aircraft type to two successive controllers is a rather unusual requirement in world terms but I'll log that requirement in the memory bank.

I'd be grateful of a confirmation on the requirement to readback on the speed with the assumption that this would include the '160 knots to 4 mile' often issued requirement.

4HP

[mad_jock]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413Supplement.pdf

Page 17

Yep and it will be in the ATIS if they require you to confirm your aircraft type when swapping to approach.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

O...... M........ G.........

[Defruiter]

Pilots failing to read back speed instructions is a particular bug bearer of mine! It has to be read back in full just like any other mandatory readback item.

With regards to being a Luton inbound, you only need to inform us of the ATIS you have and your aircraft type when you contact Luton Radar. Essex don't need this information (So I have no idea why in this particular circumstance you were asked for it).

[Ninja Controller]

Yes, speed instructions require a mandatory readback. That's pretty basic stuff and I'm fairly sure it's an ICAO requirement and not one of our niche UK procedures.

Out of interest, what part of the world do you hail from? If you did your flight training over here, that should have been drilled into you from day one of basic RT procedures. I can't speak for elsewhere.

[2 sheds]

Yup - ICAO requirement.

2 s

[gchangflyer]

I think 4HP is from SA (?)

I must agree, speed readbacks are mandatory

[4HolerPoler]

I operate an N-reg aircraft on a global basis. Far from perfect and not embarrassed to ask questions in order to comply with standards.

Thanks for the guidance and no issues with the holier-than-thou's who are abhorred at my lapse. The CAP413 is a very interesting & enlightening doc which I have forwarded to my crews to highlight the differences that the UK has with so many other systems.

4HP

[Vercingetorix]

to highlight the differences that the UK has with so many other systems.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

You mean where you fly there are no readbacks? I can't believe it.

[mad_jock]

to highlight the differences that the UK has with so many other systems.

He is right, the UK has about 8 pages of differences in the JEPP enroute manual and to be honest it hasn't got all of them. Most country's only have half to a page of them.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Maybe, but I thought readbacks were a universal requirement?

[Daysleeper]

Most country's only have half to a page of them.

I suspect that has more to do with the UK being particularly diligent, at filing differences from ICAO, rather than actually having a greater number of them.

[4HolerPoler]

I really didn't mean to stir anything up, was just looking for a little guidance. Altitude read-backs (and many other instances) are mandatory in all regions but a 'Wilco' response to many instructions (speed changes included) is an acceptable response in a large part of the world.

[Vortex Issues]

we checked in with Essex Radar who fastidiously require the aircraft type, current ATIS confirmation as well as any current restrictions to be announced on initial contact, to be handed over to Luton Radar shortly thereafter, where I failed miserably to provide my aircraft typeYou are not required to pass the aircraft type and current ATIS to Essex radar if you are a Luton inbound, you only need pass this to Luton Approach. Only SS inbounds are required to pass this to Essex.

[mad_jock]

I was trained British and there are more than a few especially when your outside europe.

But most things you can get away with repeating back how the controller has said it. eg flight level one-zero-zero.

Other things you can get away with doing it the british way and nobody says a thing.

eg read back the things you would in the UK
state limitations first eg after the landing traffic line up and wait. When the controller actually said "line up after the landing"

Its quite funny when you get an ex pat controller and a load of Brits on frequency they very quickly revert back and totally confuse the locals.

And its also been the case that local controllers have said in the pub that they prefer the Brit way of doing things because they can see the advantages. This is usually met with scorn from the FAA background crew.

Saying that I am not that experenced compared to most pilots on here operating in none european climates 4holerpoler for example.

I prefer the brit way but I can see why it causes issues for some pilots if they haven't been here before or only very occasionally outside the mental hours in the London zone.

[Vercingetorix]

The Brit way is essentially designed to be fail safe, the other ways are more casual and consequently more prone to being fail dangerous :ok:

[Sallyann1234]

As a mere PPL I tremble to post here, but aside from all the discussion about what is or is not legally required, I have to ask what is the actual purpose of the readback? It is to ensure that you have copied ATC's instructions correctly.
You read back the FL instruction to confirm that you are going to the level you have been assigned. When you are heading into some of the most congested airspace on the planet, and ATC are feeding you into the traffic flow, don't you think it's equally important to ensure that you have copied the speed correctly?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<When the controller actually said "line up after the landing">>

I hope he'd be put against a wall and shot for saying that!!!

[stormyweathers]

Heathrow Director, read backs are not a universal requirement...not in the US apparently. Im told Taxi instructions dont have to be read back except RWY Hold Short. Clearance Delivery doesnt have to be read back except squawk code. Im told there are no official pilot read-back requirements. I was surprised at this but then again Im told that in NY, you are given a clearance and you dont even have time to read-back, the frequency too busy, you just comply with it. Is this true you americans?

[mad_jock]

I hope he'd be put against a wall and shot for saying that!!!

In the country in question it would be more usual to have your head cut off with a sword.

[Minesthechevy]

'How often do folk get their heads chopped off then?'

- 'Just the once....'