Landing issue

[IrishJason]

Well lads. I'm 22 or so hours into my ppl. My flying is going good only for one thing. The landings, Most go well but I have an issue and its quite dangerous at times, Whats happening is when I'm coming into the hold off I'm pulling back to far and at times stalling the aircraft just before landing, This in turn results in a heavy landing. The issue I have is I'm terrified of hitting the ground to hard and not holding off correctly. Any tips ?. My instructor is great and explained that its a normal thing for now but I don't want to be doing this any longer. thanks

[billiboing]

Very common problem. Often caused by not looking far enough ahead. As you come in and begin the round out it is important to be looking well ahead to judge the rate of descent. Not worry- its just a matter of practice.

[Genghis the Engineer]

May help to get a mental picture of what the landing attitude is supposed to look like, and aiming for that rather than just full back stick - fly to that attitude, settle on the ground, then bring the stick slowly fully back once the mains are down.

But yes, consistency of landings is a common early-hours problems; it needs working at, but not panicking about.

G

[jimmellish]

Here's what helped me:

When you flare your new aim is to get the aircraft to the end of the runway without climbing or descending. Transfer your attention to the end of the runway and when you feel the aircraft start to sink apply a little back pressure, just enough to stop the sink. Carry on doing this until a) you reach halfway down the runway and havn't yet landed - go around or b) you land.

I tend to flare too high so I have learnt to leave the flare until I am really scared of hitting the ground :eek: Note: this bit doesn't work if you have a really high scare threshold !

[FleetFlyer]

Depending on what type you are flying, you may find that it helps if you keep a little throttle in as this will delay the stall when you are rounding out as the aeroplane will decelerate less quickly. This will inevitably make you more likely to float but on the plus side you will have more time to land the plane.

When you round out, try to fly the aeroplane six inches off the ground. As the throttle will be closed or near to closed, you will find that it will land itself.

I realise that other ppruners will probably crucify me for these tips, but they both worked for me, so its not as if they haven't been used successfully.

Also, looking up the runway helps (as already suggested), but you may also want to try glancing out at 45 degrees from your direction of travel as it can really help you judge your height better.

[IrishJason]

Thanks lads. Its a pa-28 if that helps. I try to keep looking ahead alright but sometimes instinct kicks in and I want to pull up to much, I have looked out at the 45 to see my angle of land and the height seemed a bit excessive. I'm back flying tomorrow and I'm going to try harder with looking ahead, I also want to try flying along the runway a little longer and see how I get on

[thing]

Bearing in mind I'm a novice not an expert what works for me is closing the throttle and transferring sight to end of runway, gradually bring the nose up until you are in the climb attitude (but don't climb while you are doing this!!) which will be nose on the horizon for 172/28 types and just let it settle. Always works for me and my landings aren't bad.

[AdamFrisch]

As mentioned, look far ahead. I hinge on the end of the runway with my eyes normally.

Secondly, two schools here. Some instructors don't want you to do final approach with any throttle and some think it's fine. I tend to approach with throttle always as it makes my landings better (the type I fly kind of has to be flown that way), but obviously this can be a bad practice when in and out of really short fields.

[Whopity]

One of the reasons we have an instructor is so they can show you how its done. Watching a couple of times can be worth a dozen tries with someone yacking at you. Ask for a demo.

[mad_jock]

I'm back flying tomorrow and I'm going to try harder with looking ahead, I also want to try flying along the runway a little longer and see how I get on

Don't fly further down the runway, and for gawds sake don't leave any power on. If your instructor is any good they won't be very happy with that.

You will be flaring to high and leveling off instead of continuing to decend until impact :p

There is nothing wrong as such with pitching back until the stall warner goes off or it stalls its just that your too high above the runway when you do it.

Genghis suggestion of spotting the landing attitude is correct. Then all you have to do is work on getting it close enough to the runway.

BTW if you using the PAPI's that will be half your problem because the approach angle will be all wrong, way to shallow and any extra speed won't do you any favours either because it will just make the plane level off or ballon with the power off and a landing attitude. Trick is the keep decending all the time while pitching back until you get to the landing attitude just as the wheels touch the deck.

[stiknruda]

What MJ said and Genghis' point is also valid!

This is a great place to come and learn, to garner information and to help and share.

HOWEVER

You will need to spend some time here learning who is worth taking heed of and who might accidentally mislead you. The number of posts by a poster don't really help you, it all comes down to experience!

Your best bet at as a tyro, is to speak to your instructor (the clue is in his title), if you don't like what he says, take it up with the club/school CFI.

Hope that this helps,

Stik

[mad_jock]

As another hint have a search for posts from Beagle and Whopity on how it should be done.

Both have spent alot of time and effort posting quality briefings on certain subjects.

I might not agree with them on certain subjects ie point and power and closing angle for Nav but both have my respect as I have learned alot from them over the years.


If you see a post by DFC just ignore it because in all likely hood it will be talking utter ****e.

[douglas.lindsay]

No advice from me (I'm not even at 100 hours yet), just encouragement.

After being consistently good at landings for a while, I reached about 20 hours and somehow completely forgot how to land for a couple of months. It all came back later.

That is, until my skills test when I for some reason tried to flare at 50 feet... turns out being knackered really screws up my height judgement :-)

[airpolice]

Two hints I think may help you are:

1: Make sure you are right on the speeds. Even a little too fast can make a landing tricky.

2: Sit in the aircraft on the Apron and look out of the window. That's how you get a good image of how far below you the runway is, and that will help you know when to flare.

[FREDAcheck]

All good advice here, a couple more points:

You do need to learn technique, but as you gain experience, it is to some extent like riding a bike: you can't quite say how you do it, but it becomes more instinctive and less of a cerubral activity that you have to think through as you do it.
For most people, there's no blinding light, no flash of inspiration when it suddenly clicks. Or it seems to click and then a bit later it all goes to pot again. It just gradually gets better, but with good advice and technique this happens quicker.
If it's any consolation, Nigel Everett, ex-RAF and author of the very-readable "Beyond the PPL" writes that it took him 1,000 hours to get consistently good touch-downs!

Edit to add: as stik says, you've no idea of the provenance of advice here. Food for thought here, but reliable advice comes from instructors, not anonymous forum posters.

[PilotsAnonymous]

As others have said: don't worry, you will get the hang of it.

One piece of advise: it often helps to do the following exercise a few times:

Fly the approach as normal, but when you would normally throttle off and touch down, don't. You are not allowed to touch the runway, you should fly 1-3 feet above it. Touch the runway and you loose. When you are approx halfway the runway, throttle up and go around.

I did this a few times when I had the same issue as you do. It helped me a lot in getting the feel of control on the airplane.

Discuss it with your instructor.

[Pilot DAR]

Whats happening is when I'm coming into the hold off I'm pulling back to far and at times stalling the aircraft just before landing,

Perfect! A great, consistent landing will result when you do this just inches above the runway. It's easier when you've lot's of length ahead of you, so you're not worried about stopping. (having to stop can be distracting to a greaser landing). If you have a good stall underway as you touch (warning horn for sure) you've a good chance of a no bounce landing, as the wing has no lift anymore. You'll also find that the plane will slow down quite nicely. You don't have to be on the ground, and on the brakes, to slow down for the first bit.

Sure, it's possible to stall, and drop on, or to fly on with too much speed, we all still do it from time to time. Don't worry about it. Every now and again, you'll touch down so smoothly that you'll have to roll the wings a bit to find out that you're on the runway, 'cause you did not feel touching down at all.

Keep trying, it'll come to you....

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Qoute - Mad Jock

[Saint Jack]

IrishJason: Check the height of your seat, do you have the correct line-of-sight over the instrument panel. Too high or too low can affect your flare/landing performance. As many others here have suggested, talk to your instructor.

[FantomZorbin]

IrishJason

Just a word of caution. Your definition of "good landing" should be a 'positive landing' NOT a 'greaser'. A 'positive landing' should still leave your fillings in place but a 'greaser' on a wet runway will lead to aqua-planing ... thus spake my instructor whilst treatening me with his dinghy knife:uhoh:

[BackPacker]

Just a word of caution. Your definition of "good landing" should be a 'positive landing' NOT a 'greaser'. A 'positive landing' should still leave your fillings in place but a 'greaser' on a wet runway will lead to aqua-planing ... thus spake my instructor whilst treatening me with his dinghy knife

Even more generally, there is no single technique that works in all circumstances. As above, a greaser is appreciated by the passengers, by the airframe and by the person who has to pay for new tires, but is not always the right method. On a wet and (x-)windy day a positive landing (in the right attitude, at the right speed) will reduce the chance of aquaplaning and will give you better directional control straight away.

A landing with the stall warner blaring means you are on the low end of the speed scale and is something that's possible in most airframes. But there are airframes that will scrape their tail if landed in the near-stall attitude, particularly if, for some reason, you are landing flapless. These airframes need to be landed somewhat faster.

A glide approach from downwind without power is great for practicing forced landings, but might not be appreciated by others in the circuit.

Landing with the throttle fully closed will give you the shortest landing run, but if you're heavy, a bit slow and happen to be approaching rather steep, a short burst of power may help you cushion your descent. And in very gusty conditions, when runway length is not an issue, leaving just a tad power on until after touchdown will increase airflow over the tail, thus aiding controllability.

Just a few examples. At your stage in training, what the instructor wants to see before you go solo is a series of safe and consistent landings in benign conditions. So follow your instructors advice and stick to it. Variations to that technique will come later.

[FleetFlyer]

Pilotanonymous; Fly the approach as normal, but when you would normally throttle off and touch down, don't. You are not allowed to touch the runway, you should fly 1-3 feet above it. Touch the runway and you loose. When you are approx halfway the runway, throttle up and go around.

I can really recommend this.

I was made to do this by an instructor that was checking me out on the type I currently fly. It made learning the correct 'picture' (what the view outside looks like) a doddle and got me used to handling the aeroplane in the configuration, speed and attitude it would be in in the seconds before touching down. We only needed one or two passes and I've not had a problem landing it since.

[Midland Transport]

I would suggest to be very disciplined on approach speed it will help you now and in the future when you fly different types. On long runways with small planes it is too easy to get in to bad habits. If you watch your instructor as has been suggested you will find that his/her approach speed will be very accurate and therefore will avoid the balloon landing (from being too fast) which normally starts bad and gets worse as you try and correct with pitch.

[Fuji Abound]

Find a long runway somewhere with the wind straight down and not turbulent and, with an instructor, position for a landing and fly the aircraft down the runway aiming to stay just above the ground for as long as possible with some power eventually converting into a touch and go - repeat a few times. It is a wonderful way of teaching the brain the required spatial awareness.

That is all landings are really about, the brain developing the required spatial awareness which is why instructors bash students around the circuit. The trouble is rushed landings because of short runways does nothing to give the brain time to develop the required spatial awareness.

Once you have got that bit right landing on the numbers, handling cross winds etc will come a great deal more naturally.

I have done it with quite a few pilots that were struggling with their landings so I know it works.

[Pilot DAR]

A 'positive landing' should still leave your fillings in place but a 'greaser' on a wet runway will lead to aqua-planing

I agree with this statement as applicable to arrivals on aircraft carrier decks. As for runways and GA aircraft, I'm not so convinced. Aqua-planing on runways with standing water is a risk. My experience is that few well maintained runways have standing water in amounts to make this a significant risk. (Just "wet", as opposed to standing water, does not create aqua-planing).

Aqua-planing occurs in standing water, as a product of speed of the wheels, and tire pressure as seen by the water (let's say in PSI). The lower the PSI applied to the water, the greater the risk of aqua-planing. The tire pressure seen by the water will not be greater than that in the tire, but could be less, if the whole weight of the plane is not yet on the tire (wings still supporting some after touchdown).

So whether you "arrive" or grease it on, the moment after contact, you're still moving at speed X with tire pressure Y as seen by the runway, so the aqua-planing risk number is the same in either case. Now, if you instantly get the flaps up, and apply the ground spoilers (if you have them), you will transfer more weight to the wheels, and reduce that risk. Not general capability or practice.

If you grease it on, the moment of contact, you're still very close to flying speed, so all the flight controls still are effective. maintaining directional control can still be accomplished with the rudder. Ideally, you're holding the nosewheel off anyway, so you're not using it to keep you straight. If you've landed in a crosswind so strong that you can't keep it going straight on the mains only, because it's aqua-planing, you're not going to keep it straight with the nosewheel either, better go around, and land elsewhere.

Don't worry if you can't grease it on, "arrivals" happen even for the best pilots. Don't avoid greasing it on because you're afraid of aqua-planing on light GA types (I cannot speak for faster heavier planes).

[Storkeye]

Oh I remember having exactly the same problem while I was learning and what helped me... Flight Sim. I went out and purchased the Saitek yoke and rudder set. Installed MS flight sim x and then practiced, practiced and practiced. Turn the sound up so you can hear the THUD of a high flare!

It really helped me practice my crosswind technique too.

[Intercepted]

...It really helped me practice my crosswind technique too.

I have done both a loop and roll succesfully in a warrior on M$ flight Sim. Very easy to do and with success every time, so I will try for real tomorrow... :}

[Pull what]

When you flare your new aim is to get the aircraft to the end of the runway without climbing or descending.Never ever heard of that before, where do you fly from-would love to watch that.

but a 'greaser' on a wet runway will lead to aqua-planing ..Really? You have aquaplaned on a 'Wet' runway have you?

you can't quite say how you do it, but it becomes more instinctive and less of a cerubral activity that you have to think through as you do it.You can say how you do its, its called being a flying instructor. If you are doing things in an aircraft that you cannot explain you may be safer in the clubhouse until you find an instructor who can explain it for you.

[FantomZorbin]

Pull what

... yes, that's the reason for being threatened with a dinghy knife.

[jimmellish]

Pull what

Never ever heard of that before, where do you fly from-would love to watch that.

I fly out of Denham - 700m tarmac runway.

This is how I apply Alan Bramson's advice in 'Make Better Landings' page 50:
"The technique to be adopted following the round-out entails holding-off, a lost art among many modern pilots. During this procedure, the aircraft is kept in the air by progressively easing back on the elevator control, increasing the angle of attack step by step with the decrease in airspeed. Furthermore, the process must be enacted so that when the correct attitude is acheived, the main wheels are allowed to make gentle contact with the ground".

[Pilot DAR]

"The technique to be adopted following the round-out entails holding-off, a lost art among many modern pilots. During this procedure, the aircraft is kept in the air by progressively easing back on the elevator control, increasing the angle of attack step by step with the decrease in airspeed. Furthermore, the process must be enacted so that when the correct attitude is acheived, the main wheels are allowed to make gentle contact with the ground".

I think that this is the single most useful written advice a new pilot could read and use. The ability to apply this technique to other aircraft types you might find yourself flying in the future, will be very useful. This technique will be applicable to most every tricycle or float equipped aircraft, taildraggers and flying boats are a little different.

This technique requires patience, which is a good discipline for a pilot. Pilots tend to see the other end of the runway coming up, and get a sense of urgency to get on the ground. It's easy to forget that the plane is still slowing down, just in the air. The patience of prolonging the flare as described, is an excellent skill to develop.

This technique has the added advantage of enabling the trial of the runway surface, without committing to the landing. It is a bit like keeping a helicopter light on the skids. If you decide you don't like the surface, and you want to go around, just add power, and perhaps retract some flaps. Otherwise you're already very close to being at the right attitude for a soft field takeoff (which is probably why you decided not to stay!). Hold the attitude, add the power, and you're in the air again with very little pitch correction required.

The last advantage, is that with this technique, you're going as slowly as practical when you land. I something bad is going to happen, the lower your speed, the better!

[AdamFrisch]

DAR, I'm a little perplexed at the adulation for the "technique" Bramson mentions above as all I could think was "I wasn't aware that there was any other way to land?". I can't really see any revolutionary tidbits or nuggets of advice in it. How would one else land without progressively flaring and slowing down? Is there some other technique widely adopted I've somehow missed? That's how we all land, albeit some better than others.

[Pace]

DAR, I'm a little perplexed at the adulation for the "technique" Bramson mentions above as all I could think was "I wasn't aware that there was any other way to land?". I can't really see any revolutionary tidbits or nuggets of advice in it. How would one else land without progressively flaring and slowing down? Is there some other technique widely adopted I've somehow missed? That's how we all land, albeit some better than others.

Adam

There are other methods of landing. Airlines now positively do not want pilots holding off in the flair as they sail past the numbers trying to get the gentlest contact some way down the runway.
A greaser as many have put it here has nothing to do with landing near the stall and flaring progressively.
A greaser is when at the point of contact between the tyres and the surface the rate of vertical descent is zero or as close to zero as possible.
You could equally make a greaser landing the club PA28 at 110 kts clean as you could at 65kts if your skills and a dollop of luck were up to it!
In a windy gusty day the last thing you want to be doing is the advice above.
On a short runway you may not want to do the above!
In a strong crosswind you may not want to do the above.
There are times when you need to put it down to be blunt!!
In fact one of my best greasers was while putting it down in strong wind conditions. My PAX thought we had not landed ;) But that was more luck than anything else!
so a greaser is not about how you get to the point of contacting the ground but the vertical speed on contact.
That could be with the column back in your chest near the stall or at 200kts. Mind you you would never stop :eek:

Pace

[mad_jock]

Well there is the quite common drive it onto the deck and the struggle to keep it there while braking like hell to stop.

[AdamFrisch]

There is no way any landing can be achieved without a flare. Without braking something, that is. Even firm, plant-it-there landings involve a flare, or crosswinds. All landings involve a flare. Am I missing something?

[GrassRootsFlying]

Just curious but do you wear glasses? If so, what type.
Regards

[mad_jock]

Depends on the type to be honest. If I do a flap zero in my commercial types its flat as a flat thing with the nose wheel barely above the mains maybe 4deg max. All the pitch up does is reduce the rate of decent to something survivable and get the nose wheel out the way the speed doesn't really decay maybe 2-3 knts. Vref is about 120knts your doing about 700ft per min on approach then when you go through 200ft agl and ground effect starts up it reduces to about 300ft per min and through 50ft its back to 150ft per min and then last 10 ft its power to flight idle and ever so slightly nose up and wait for the arrival.

If you drive it on there isn't really a flare as such because its a controlled decent into the ground.

Also if you do a performance landing if you get it right on the limits you can't flare because your already nearly at critcal angle of attack so you can't but I suppose you could say that you had been in the flare for the last 100 ft decent. If you do it right in a C172 with barn door flaps you can stop in the piano keys. I managed it once in the space of a heli pad H. Wouldn't even attempt it these days as I am not current enough on light aircraft, at the time I was doing 30 hours a week with about 50 odd approaches and 5-6 PFL's

PS to the OP please ignore this talk about "other" methods just get the one your learning just now sorted the rest will come later.

And other PPL's these techniques arn't really required for normal wx they are more for when some sod has told you to go flying and is paying you for the joy of flying in soaking trousers and only ever seeing the runway out the side window usually only 10 seconds before you land. FO's don't usually get there head round them until flying 100-200 approaches in crap wx. By about 400 they are profficent at them. The first 50 is quite amusing though, their faces afterwards are just screaming "WTF have I got myself into".

[Pace]

Adam

I second Jocks piece above. In really short landings in the Citation you can use the AOA. Other times you just fly it on and sometimes with the Citation which has straight wings I will flare on longer runways to try and get that allusive chairmans landing as we call it ;)
BUT the greaser has little to do with the flare as such and all to do with the rate of descent on contact.
These landing methods are relevant to light GA aircraft but starting out you use the basic principle as outlined as you are likely to be landing on low wind days.

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Back in the days when PPLs learned on tailwheel aircraft, a correctly fully-held-off flare was mandatory; the aeroplane demanded it! If you touched down too soon (i.e. not properly held off) the mains would bounce the aeroplane nose-high which the pilot has to sort out either with a bit of power to cushion the subsequent touchdown, or with a go-around. Do the same in a trike, and the mains bounce the aeroplane nose-low, slamming the nosewheel on whereupon the pilot resorts to the brakes to slow down.

Just see how many broken nose gears there each month in the AAIB reports.

3-point landings are for taildraggers, yet how many trikes do you see touching down on all 3 together at any GA airfield any day of the week? It is sloppy and expensive (in nosewheels) technique. ALL landings on SEPs should be fully held-off (with the possible exception of extreme cross winds) except wheelers in taildraggers. Even here there is an intial hold-off until the mains kiss the runway, then a tiny forward movement of the stick to pin them down. You can then either let the tail down gently as the speed decays, or (my preferred method!) progressively apply forward stick until the tail gently descends despite full forward stick (in a decent wind you might well have stopped by then!).

I have never, in 32 years of GA flying (mostly tailwheel) ever experienced aquaplaning either on strips, airfields, or major airports even in heavy rain.

The main thing about landing a light aircraft is.... try to keep the aeroplane in the air as long as possible - try to stop it from landing - so that when it does touch down it is fully held off with most of the energy dissipated.

[Pace]

Shaggy

try to keep the aeroplane in the air as long as possible - try to stop it from landing -

I do not have tailwheel experience other than a couple of hours years back so bow to your superior knowledge. All you have advised is excellent the only issue I would take up with you is the snippet above.
Unless you are a fair weather pilot only which many are that technique would get you into big problems on windy days with crosswind and down draughts.
Holding off in crosswinds and down draughts near the stall is asking for problems.

There is a misconception about landing! In still air we want to land at the slowest speed possible and at a speed that the aircraft wont continue flying ie floating down the runway. Although an aircraft will land quite happily while still flying :)
Full flap (if the aircraft is fitted with flaps) will reduce the stall speed as well as adding drag.
But throw all that out of the window for a second? Does an aircraft have to be landed with that technique NO!
Does an aircraft have to be landed near the stall? NO
I can remember landing a Citation at Gatwick one winter winds where 45 gusting 70 kts 20 degrees off the runway.
The worst part was wind shear down the approach so much that speed was jumping 30 kts up and down.
I held 170 kts most of the way down adding 20 kts to VREF and flying the aircraft onto the deck.
The Citation could be landed at any speed within flap and gear limits if you are skillfull enough.
OK I am being pedantic in splitting landing aircraft at a slow as possible speed normally 1.3 Xs the stall over the fence and highlighting the fact that that does not equal landing in all situations.
I will also add something controversial that floating is a reflection of pilot technique not landing the aircraft too fast.An aircraft floating is still flying yet an aircraft can quite happily land while still flying!
Different horses for different courses and different landing techniques for different situations

Pace

[FREDAcheck]

try to keep the aeroplane in the air as long as possible - try to stop it from landing
Even on a short runway?

[Pilot DAR]

There is no way any landing can be achieved without a flare.

Though a flare is generally a good thing in a tricycle aircraft, otherwise, I do not agree with this statement. As previously mentioned, some operations in some types are purposefully "fly it to the surface" or no flare landings. Think of aircraft carrier arrivals (though I concede this is an extreme, and not relevent within the spirit of this thread). I am not familiar with Pace's operations, but agree that he probably has valid points.

I was doing the initial test flying of a modified Cessna Caravan, with a towed survey "bird" hanging under the aft belly. Full flap, three point, or nearly so landings were preferred, so as to not strike the tail of the bird. I spent a half hour doing circuits in another Caravan to perfect this technique. With satisfaction that I could land nose low, I went out in the test aircraft. My objective was to touch all three wheels at the same time, at the lowest possible airspeed. If I felt the mains touch at the same time I felt the nosewheel touch through the pedals, I was happy. I was very careful to have back pressure applied at all times (and ready to apply more), so as to prevent wheelbarrowing. The Caravan did it perfectly happily.

Notice one main not on yet...

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Jims%20DAR%20Testing/IMG_4816.jpg


This is not a "normal" operation, though it is what you might want to do in any tricycle, if you had a flat main tire.

There are number of other aircraft types, where a flare should be minimised, though these are not tricycle wheelplanes.

Even on a short runway?

Well, probably. If you have a short landing to do, the major factor in how little runway you'll use, will be the speed and height above the fence, as you cross the end of the runway. Fast/high, will get you a longer landing roll much more easily than the way you contact the ground. Aerodynamic braking at landing speeds will generally be more effective than wheel brakes for slowing down right after touchdown, so it's going to be more effective right before touchdown too, for as long as you can hold it off. If you're really working at a short landing, you'll be nose high, carrying power, and removing it at touchdown, so everything will happen at once.

The nose held high will get you the best braking, when you need it. The use of the brakes just after you touchdown in a GA aircraft is pointless. With the wing carrying some of the weight of the aircraft, you're just going to slide the tires, and wreck them. (The 172 I've been test flying in the last few days has obviously been a victim of this, and I'm having a main tire replaced later today, as it's more of a polygon, than round).

The landings I did as pictured above were definately not intended to be short, and did not involve the use of any brakes 'till just before the turnoff. Similarly, the technique for landing that plane is stated to not be suited to short or rough runways.

The main theme of holding it off for as long as you can, is the very best for a newer pilot in a tricycle aircraft, but is certainly not the only way to land. Indeed, it will be dangerous in other types and types of landings. This is why there is type training. Holding off a Lake Amphibian as long as you can, during a calm water landing, will at least give you a very rough landing, or worse, a less safe one.

[Mimpe]

Be aware that there are varying techniques for different conditions and aircraft

I always found getting the correct speed over the keys for the weight of the aircraft the key. I f you have the right speed and the stabilised approach, the aircraft will pretty much land itself. As you get 6 ft or so above the ground treat it as an excercise in level flight, look down the runway, relax, and as throttle is closed, it will sink slowly. As it sinks, ease back on the controls progressively more. Thats the hold off.
Forget about the stall warning. I generally try to let it land before the stall warning, and you will be greatful for this on a summers day with a full load, when you can get a rude shock,especially if you lose your headwind 15 feet off the ground.
Hold the nose off if you can, and with flaps 30 plus, you be amazed how quickly the drag from the flaps plus nose up slows things down. However the typical short field landind is to get all three wheels down and brake firmly, with
elevators up .

[Pace]

I am not familiar with Pace's operations, but agree that he probably has valid points.

Pilot Dar

I am purely pointing out two misconceptions in the thread! The first that a Greaser has anything to do with holding off and being near the stall but everything to do with the rate of descent at touchdown (the nearer 0 at touchdown the better the greaser! whether that is at 50 kts or 150 kts, whether that is near the stall or 30 kts above it makes no difference to a Greaser.
The other misconception is that to land you have to be at the point that the aircraft stops flying.
Again totally untrue infact in certain situations holding off near the stall is a very hazardous exercise.
An aircraft can land near the stall at the slowest speed possible for the shortest landing distance to stop or an aircraft can land way above the stall even at cruise speed clean.
In certain situations you will need to have 1.3 x the stall speed plus half the gust factor or more.
Maybe pilots of PA28s should try high speed landing clean on suitable runways as touch and goes just to see that landing is not connected other than for minimum stop distance to the stall.
Higher speeds take more skill as with higher speed comes more elevator authority for less control movement so elevator movements will be smaller but a skill worth practising.

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Even on a short runway?

Oh yes! Especially on a short runway! The object is to dissipate the energy in the air, so that on touch down the aeroplane has minimum speed and will roll to a stop in the minimum length possible. This does not preclude touching down at your aiming point, just in from the downwind end of the runway.

But use your short runway sensibly - don't float along for ages because you approached far too fast; get the approach speed right first! The last thing one should do (and this is far from uncommon) is to approach far too fast, force it onto the ground (yer 3-point trike landing), then stand on the brakes! If you land your trike on all 3 at once, you have put it down at far too high an airspeed. The nosewheel isn't designed to absorb much of that sort of mistreatment, and it indicates a poor basic landing skill level.

Some have questioned the fully-held-off technique for x-winds and for non-GA types. I distinctly posted that the technique is for light SEPs (where my 32 years of experience lies) and perhaps not for strong x-winds (though in the right aeroplane with sensitive and powerful controls right down the stall, that's OK as well). I perhaps should have added gusty days as well.

3-pointing a taildragger guarantees it touches down at or close to the minimum speed possible (if it's going any faster, the mains will touch first). There are occasions (very gusty days for instance, or in strong winds even if down the runway, which cause turbulence) when one might want to touch down at a higher speed. That's what wheeler landings are for. :ok:

Again, the above might not be relevant for heavy metal, carriers (deffo not appropriate for carrier ops!), water landings etc. Just for light GA.

[AdamFrisch]

Right, I think it's time to define flare. If, by flare, one means an angle of attack different than the approach, i.e. some backpressure has been applied to elevators to arrest either descent or change attitude, then I still claim it's impossible to land without a flare. If a flare is defined as the above but only in the immediate connection with the touchdown, then maybe not. Logic says that there is no way a landing can be made without using back pressure at some point during the approach, or else you'd be driving it on the field like a car.

This has become very a**l...:E

[Pull what]

There was no flare in the Phantom-you maintained same attitude from the threshold to touchdown.

We certainly never flared the Airbus if landing on a limited performance runway-once you flare you use up tarmac!

In certain situations you will need to have 1.3 x the stall speed plus half the gust factor or more.Not for the landing-only at the threshold and its actually 1.2 on some types

then I still claim it's impossible to land without a flare. If a flare is defined as the above but only in the immediate connection with the touchdown, then maybe not. Logic says that there is no way a landing can be made without using back pressure at some point during the approach, or else you'd be driving it on the field like a car.
You are wrong there-a swept back wng aircraft with leading edge slats will be in the landing attitude at the threshold usually-you just wait for ground effect and close the thrust levers-with a flare you risk a tail strike. Also minimal flare if any on some long bodied jets for same reason

[IrishJason]

Some massively helpful and informative post lads thanks. I went again yesterday for my lessons and tried some of what was said. Of the 10 or more landing I done I only had one bump and that was due to me not leaning into the wind enough on a sudden cross wind.Also what I found out was I'm not looking at the end of the runway, Now this is something that has happened recently as I used to always do it, I'm more looking half way down which is unusual for me. I also had one where I came down nearly on the nose wheel, Granted I sorted that quickly and managed a lovely landing, I didn't even hear the touchdown :ok: I also tried the floating along and although I preferred this on a flap-less landing I didn't enjoy it so much with a full flap landing. The fear of hitting the runway is starting to leave me more and more as I fly. The best advise I can take from this is to learn step by step as I go. Some very good advise and I thank you all for it, Someone asked if I wore glasses and the answer is I don't.
Thanks again lads. I'm sure I'll have many more questions as I go along :D

[Pull what]

The nose held high will get you the best braking, when you need it. The use of the brakes just after you touchdown in a GA aircraft is pointless.

Dont forget to mention that the hedge will stop you too!

[Pace]

Adam

Right, I think it's time to define flare.

A Flare is not small elevator changes you make down the approach but something much larger as the word depicts.

In the actual process of landing a flare in my books is continuing back pressure ie a large movement on the column with the effect of destroying lift so that the aircraft gets to a point where sink occurs.

I would not consider a wrist jerk on landing as a flare ;)

Pace

[Pull what]

In the actual process of landing a flare in my books is continuing back pressure ie a large movement on the column with the effect of destroying lift so that the aircraft gets to a point where sink occurs.

Destroying lift so that the a/c gets to a point where sink occurs. Not so, in fact a very bad explanation which I would interpret as stalling the aircraft above the ground. You are not destroying lift(thats done on the ground by decleration or devices such as air brakes or spoilers) you are in fact reducing the amount of lift to below that required to maintain level flight, thats what produces the descent which you call sink.

Flare is an adjustment of the A of A to reduce the rate of descent before touchdown-its secondary effect is to put the aircraft in the landing attitude. The amount of elevator or stabiliser movement needed to achieve this adjustment has many different variables even on the same aircraft-speed,weight, density, C of G, thermal activity, sink/wind, turbulence and of course the height that you choose to round out has a bearing on this too.

[Mimpe]

Jason....just practice a lot, and when your instructor lets you, do lots of crosswind practice. I used to love an hour or more of circuit after circuit..its such great practice, and if you progress through the commercial types, you may never have so much landing practice again!
I trained at an aerodrome almost famous for its crosswinds, and it stands me in good stead.

I even heard about a guy who used to routinely calculate the cross wind component from his crab angle and airspeed in early final, as a habbit!

[Pace]

Not so, in fact a very bad explanation which I would interpret as stalling the aircraft above the ground. You are not destroying lift(thats done on the ground by decleration or devices such as air brakes or spoilers) you are in fact reducing the amount of lift to below that required to maintain level flight, thats what produces the descent which you call sink.

I dont see what is wrong with the use of the word destroying! Had I used the word destroyed lift then yes the aircraft would be in a stalled state.
I also question the assumption that lift can only be destroyed on the ground.
Take one accident where a student attempted to flare at 30 feet agl? The aircraft fully stalled and dropped a wing into the tarmac injuring the student.
I would say his lift had been destroyed in the air.
So I am quite happy with the word destroying when directed at ever increasing angle of attack.

Pace

[FlyingStone]

Well, if we are going to be picky here, I don't think you can destroy (literally speaking) the entire lift, even if you maintain the aircraft in fully stalled condition. Once you reach maximum lift coefficient, still increasing the angle of attack will reduce the lift (by reducing the lift coefficient) and we know this as stalled wing. But I wouldn't use the word destroy, more spoil/reduce, since the lift actually exists way past the stalling angle of attack - it is just too small to create an equilibrium with lift and therefore the aircraft will be descending.

Less on the grammar, more on the topic now. I think it is very important, I could say even vital to understand the theory behind flying the aircraft, be it aerodynamics, construction, systems, instruments, performance, etc. But as you all know it, one can have 5 PhDs in aerodynamics, yet only practice, more practice and finally - much more practice will allow him to fly the aircraft consistently well (including landings). I agree that we can give the OP some pointers on how to make his landings better, but they can only go that far, the rest will have to be practiced in the real aicraft in different conditions in order for the skill to develop, and then practiced regulary so that newly attained skill doesn't fade away.

All in all, I think people are complicating landing techniques. If you aren't limited by runway length (e.g. C172 on a 1500+ m runway), hold off the aircraft as long as you can, grease the landing and then hold the nose gear off the ground for as long as you have sufficient elevator authority - the engine and nose wheel assembly will be very grateful. But please, don't complicate landings at short airfield: fly the approach with the speed in the manual, power off at 50ft, flare the aircraft just enough to touch down with main wheels only, slightly reduce back pressure on the stick/column for the nose wheel to touchdown and then simultaneously apply brakes as required and slowly pull the stick to its back stop (warning: doing this too fast could raise the nose significantly with some aircraft with very good elevator authority at low speeds, mostly T-tails) to ensure maximum braking efficiency. Nobody cares if you make a bit harder landing on a short runway and stop before the end, but I think nobody will be particulary happy if you grease the landing and end up in trees at the end of the runway.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

For an effective short field arrival, do it shallow and slow and nose-high with power, on the back of the drag curve, then chop the power over the threshold. But don't land anywhere you can't take off from! ;)

And of course if it's a short off-airfield strip ensure beforehand there are no obstructions you don't know about on the approach (trees, power lines etc) as forward viz will not be good with the above technique.

Another problem with landing too fast is the aeroplane still has enough speed to fly. Any bumps (grass strips have loads) will have you airbourn again. Do it fully held off, and once it's down it's down!

[Pull what]

The aircraft fully stalled and dropped a wing into the tarmac injuring the student.

No the aircraft didnt fully stall- one wing stalled -its more than likely that the upgoing wing was unstalled and above the critical angle of attack.

You need to look at a CL curve graph-lift is still produced below the critical angle of attack

[mad_jock]

I don't think my arse would fit in one.

Air to Air Phantom Microlight - YouTube :p

[Genghis the Engineer]

The music doesn't really match the imagery does it!

G

[mad_jock]

I don't know what music would go with a collection of tent poles, a kiddies bath with some shopping trolley wheels attached, a lawnmower engine and some tarpauline being persuaded to fly in close formation.

I wasn't joking when I said I don't think my arse would fit in it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I strongly resemble that remark Mad Jock! :=

I've had many very enjoyable flying hours under a collection of tent poles and a lawnmower engine, and would recommend it to anybody.

As for setting it to music, this wonderful bit of history (http://www.british-hang-gliding-history.com/powered/new-vids/dream2.html) does it quite well.

G

[Pace]

No the aircraft didnt fully stall-

Pull what something stalled:ugh:

[The500man]

No the aircraft didnt fully stall- one wing stalled -its more than likely that the upgoing wing was unstalled and above the critical angle of attack.

You need to look at a CL curve graph-lift is still produced below the critical angle of attack

Isn't it more likely that one wing was in a slightly deeper stall than the other? Some lift is still produced above the critical AoA.

[Obi_Wan]

Lots of great points raised, and view points I'd not considered, but there is one that really doesn't sit well with me.

"a greaser is appreciated by ...the person who has to pay for new tires"

Not so. Grease it gently enough and the tyre doesn't spin up quickly and you will induce more rubber degradation and wear as the wheel slowly spins up. A positive touchdown forces the wheel to spin up more instantly and will cause less rubber wear.

Honestly, mine aren't done in a repeatable enough manner to make it applicable to my flying, :O, but thought I'd bring it up.

[IrishJason]

Well I seemed to have overcome my issues... As I went solo for the first time last Thursday :ok: a terrifying time but loved every second of it. Here's to many more :D

[Fuji Abound]

Congratulations - the next milestone will be when you get your ticket and we get to call you captain.

[flyinkiwi]

Congrats on your first solo! :D

Tell us all about how you overcame your landing problem. When did it suddenly "click" for you?

[IrishJason]

You know what. It clicked when I started to look down the runway correctly, Started to get my speeds correct and getting into the flare a little later. I did go into a situation of putting my nose wheel down to early but I quickly overcame that and now I have that crucial in-between that gets me down without even a tire squeal :) Thanks a mill for the Congrats. Cant wait to get back up again