Madrid ATC at it again....

[kick the tires]

Time to take even more holding fuel.......

Imagine coming back at 1 in the morning to empty skies only to be told you have to hold for an hour! A calculation of the fuel available shows we have 45 mins holding fuel before burning down to minimums for diversion.

So we ask why we are holding having been airborne bang on our slot time and no one else in the skies. Answer: because you have to. We explain our timings and then have a very persistent ATC controller ENCOURAGING us to divert!!!

Her next instructions, you have to descend to FL350, if you dont you´ll lose your place in the sequence and you´ll have to divert!

So we descend, she again asks us if we are now going to divert! No no, we´ll wait for 45 mins and then divert.

We ask what our EAT is - no reply, we ask again, "ask the next sector"

Ok, then leave the hold and proceed on heading blah blah blah.

The end result, no holding and the nearest aircraft ahead of us was 15 miles and no one behind us!

How unprofessional. I understand from other pilots, and from the controller herself (quote ¨its not our fault, blame AENA¨), that they have had their manning levels reduced at night and wanted us to divert to make a point!

A new low from MAD ATC?

Take a bit more gas........

[Daermon ATC]

There is another thread about how bad spanish atc is, I think I'll leave a bigger response for that thread.

Just to be brief, do not mix the mismanagent caused by Aena with the skills of any individual controller.

As to the latter, I can not believe that if there was no reason for it the Atc would tell you to expect an hour delay or to offer divert as an alternative. The only explanation I can think of was that there was a queue some time before wih about 1h delay and that after clearing that the next controller forgott to inform the previous sector that there was no longer need for delay.
Unprofessional? Agreed, but I would think that there were understaffed to the limit so that these kind of errors might happen.

As for the staffing decided by Aena (and not by the atcos since 5th feb 2010) here is a link... http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6020/5973865258_921b5b7ac8_o.jpg

[kick the tires]

Hi Daermon,

yes I know there is another thread, but opening this specific one may save some of the pilots from diverting - certainly we now need some extra tools in our armoury to fight the controllers in Madrid!

I have NEVER had a controller, anywhere in the world encouraging me to divert!!!!!

Yes, it does continue to happen, like the following evening when we had a one hour delay from IBZ to MAD due to slot restriction from MAD for a 2am arrival, again empty skies!!!!!

But thanks for the link, what I cant understand is if you know there are one hour delays, why do you give us a CTOT that gets us to MAD in the middle of these delays?

Have the controller numbers suddenly changed, or was she trying to make a point at our, the airlines, expense?

[belk78]

I simply can´t believe you´ve been given one hour delay without any reason. Please REPORT IT.
As for the slot with empty skies, assuming there were empty skies, do you think the tower controller knows that? do you think he´s got something to do with it?

[Sonnendec]

But thanks for the link, what I cant understand is if you know there are one hour delays, why do you give us a CTOT that gets us to MAD in the middle of these delays?

Because we don´t. Flow regulations and measures are taken, once again, by people sitting on their desks at AENA management buiding. You mix up over and over again things about the ATM system in Spain, unique in the world: no controllers having operative responsabilities, only politicians.

It looks like you don´t understand that we do agree with you, this is a disaster. It´s august and we have already 3 million minutes acumulated delay in Spain, and still 4 more months to go.

And it´s, again, one of the reasons why direct routings are not issued so easily. Everything has been pushed so to the limit that if the traffics are not where they are supposed to be at a certain time, it can cause a real mess, holdings, delays, etc. And that doesn´t help us make any point, believe me.

Complain, write reports, but not to AENA but to EASA and EUROCONTROL. This is getting worse everyday, and nobody here seems to give a s*** but us. And OUR reports (we make a whole lot everyday) are stopped by the local "safety" system.

Best.

[Nightstop]

Inbound MAD that night as well. En-route inbound Hold at CLS FL 370 for 15 minutes (never had to Hold en-route in 34 years of airways flying) then cleared onwards to Hold again at Sirgu for 5 minutes.
It was a Sunday night with no MAD ATC working Approach/Final on 127.5 or 127.1, so we just follow the procedural approach and land (fortunately someone was in the TWR, a cleaner maybe?).
Incredible, an EU capital city airport (note lower case) operating like an out-of-hours desert strip :*.

[ATC Watcher]

(never had to Hold en-route in 34 years of airways flying)
exagerating a bit no ?
In Europe in the 70-80s that was common like hell everywhere back then and one of the main reason to create the CFMU.
Still done today for instance everytime Fog, snow of an accident reduces closes a runway or when a new ATC system south of London suddendly fails.
.

[ron83]

"empty skies" - Some pilots like to assume they know where all our traffic is
Or,that their ND with TCAS on = Radar display. :=

[kick the tires]

We don't delay unless the runway is at capacity or closed due weather

This evening must of been a one off then! No one on the approach ahead of us (TCAS ND, radio, visual) and then the next aircraft landed after we´d taxied from 18L to T10! Hardly capacity!

[Akhorahil]

I heard about this, and it was last sunday night yes. Staffing problem and no regulation was taken until it was too late. When tfc was holding over CLS (and Motil and more places) "zero rate" was declared to Madrid.

Well, when any of you come to Madrid, don´t remember the times you have to change frequency?. Coming from CLS, 132,980... then you are changed to 133,850, then APP 124,025... and so on. How many times were you changed that night? That means joint sectors. I think there were 8 controllers on APP that night, so at 1 am there were just 1 or 2 sectors for all Madrid TMA. That means low capacity, even if you don´t see anyone in your TCAS. At night a lot of traffics take off to cross the Atlantic, about 8-10 at least, plus some delayed can be up to 15 take offs, even more. With the arrivales is too much for one sector.

Let´s talk about TCAS: Do you see TFCs at 80 miles on it? on CZI sector you hace to control more than 200 miles from N-S, and some traffics just enter and stay the 220 miles on your sector... radio silence since "Radar contact" but they are there and count for capacity (DLH505 and SWR091 to SBGR.... all the nights are the same).

Please, just take at look at the CFMU web ANY day of the week at 21:00-22:00z. All Europe is clear (unless any special event) and a lot of sectors in Spain are regulated (specially sundays, it´s the worst day).
Remember: before july 18 ATCs on Madrid APP at night, now 8-10; 24-28 ATCs for area radar and now 14-16.

And about the controller encouraging for divert, I was not there but I won´t don that ever. I know you have to hold until the holding fuel is used and then divert. I can complain about pilots not knowing their route, or deviating by mistake, or crossing the localizer by mistake... but we are humans and it happens.

Cya tonight I think in the East sectors.

[Someone_Else]

18 Controllers (reduced 8-10) for Madrid APproach? For the uneducated can you explain what you mean by that?

In my UK world if someone where to ask me how many controllers manned Heathrow Approach I would answer 3 (maybe 5 at times, it might have changed).

So when you say Madrid Approach, what do you mean by that airspace wise?

[Akhorahil]

Madrid TMA, big area from GND to FL245. Charged with the APP to LEMD (and take offs of course), LETO and LEGT (militar base, sometimes used for the Beluga). 8 controllers mean that you will have just one sector for some time at night, and a maximum of 3 sectors at best. With 3 sectors the capacity is low (at day we have up to 10 sectors, usually 8-9 for staffing), so the delay increases, and when the sectors joint to 1 the delay is still running up. Nothing we can do about it, we just work where we are told to do and open the sectors we are told, capacity is declared acording to the staff.

[Someone_Else]

Thanks for explaining that.

[samotnik]

Someone_else, keep in mind that even if there are i.e. two sectors active, it doesn't mean that there are two people on the shift. You talk to an executive controller, but there is another one sitting beside him usually called 'planner', or assistant, doing some important coordination tasks. So you need two persons per sector. But they must take some breaks. Even with some minimalistic common-sense break periods (in my opinion anything less than 2hr on/1hr off is simply dangerous), it takes another ATCO to man their positions while they are on their breaks. So we have three of them. Taking into account night conditions and increased fatigue, breaks should be more frequent and longer, so you need another ATCO. So we now have four people for one sector per shift. At some more demanding sectors (and it doesn't mean that there must be zillion aicraft on frequency, it's far more complex issue than just freq occupancy!!) you should include let's say a spare ATCO per two sectors. So, for two sectors at night you should plan 9-10 people.

Pilots should also be aware, that ATC is not only about talking to aircraft, there is A LOT of verbal and computerized coordination involved, which significantly increases the workload.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I know you have to hold until the holding fuel is used and then divert.

Not necessarily.

[Sonnendec]

Someone_else, keep in mind that even if there are i.e. two sectors active, it doesn't mean that there are two people on the shift. You talk to an executive controller, but there is another one sitting beside him usually called 'planner', or assistant, doing some important coordination tasks. So you need two persons per sector. But they must take some breaks. Even with some minimalistic common-sense break periods (in my opinion anything less than 2hr on/1hr off is simply dangerous), it takes another ATCO to man their positions while they are on their breaks. So we have three of them. Taking into account night conditions and increased fatigue, breaks should be more frequent and longer, so you need another ATCO. So we now have four people for one sector per shift. At some more demanding sectors (and it doesn't mean that there must be zillion aicraft on frequency, it's far more complex issue than just freq occupancy!!) you should include let's say a spare ATCO per two sectors. So, for two sectors at night you should plan 9-10 people.

I wish we had all those breaks. We rotate eight controllers per 3 sectors during a daytime shift, and at night usually yes, four controllers per sector. Aena has established 25 and 35 minutes rotations, which involve a huge amount of reliefs, the most dangerous moment in ATC.

Safety? what´s that? :bored: