RAF to support Met Police operations?

[airborne_artist]

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687177/London-riots-live.html) is reporting that "James Clark, the former Ministry of Defence head of press, tweets that the RAF may be drafted in to support police operations"

I'm guessing he means some kind of RW support? Any thoughts? This is after all a rumour network :E

[500N]

I heard a few reports that if the Police can't regain control they should send in the troops - ground troops !!! Another Bloody Sunday.

They can't even decide on using water cannon, can't see them putting troops on the street - although probably not a bad idea.

Seems the Police are very reluctant to "Police", assirt control and arrest in large numbers ?

.

[airborne_artist]

It's clear that there is at present no intention of using troops on the ground. The problem the police have is the sheer numbers of thugs - the police don't have the mobility of resources or the numbers of resources to smother thuggery quickly enough.

[Wyler]

The Prime Minister cannot order troops onto the streets of this country to subdue it's citizens. It is part of the constitution.
So all the Daily Mail readers and armchair experts can spout as much crap as they want.
This is down to the Civil Authorities.

[sisemen]

Constitution??? Yer been readin' too many Yank comics son. The UK does NOT have any kind of written constitution (not counting the Magna Carta).

In any event there is something in the Military Manual called "Aid to the Civil Power" that might cover things.

[500N]

Wyler

Since when ? What reference ?

So they can in NI but not in London ?

AA
"The problem the police have is the sheer numbers of thugs - the police don't have the mobility of resources or the numbers of resources to smother thuggery quickly enough."

So if they don't have the resources, call out the troops to free up the Police to go to the front line and get hold of the lot of them one by one. Or send in the troops and let them get on with it because it will be the last time they riot.

Seems they know the response will be "soft".

"The way we police is by consent.''British policing has always meant and always depended on the support of local communities and that's what we need now.'

What a load of BS. Too far gone for that IMHO.

[Doobry Firkin]

As much as i'd like to see a military prescence on the streets it's not going to happen. Lets be honest, the pink and fluffy brigade are prepared to have soldiers locked up for what they did in Basrah during a war.... they'd have a field day if some skulls get cracked in the capital.
Maybe if the police got in amongst the scum with batons it would help instead of standing back and watching.
2 groups are needed. Front line bunch of baton weilding coppers giving it hell. Behind them a mop up group, cuff anyone on the ground, arrest them and then let the medics in to patch them up before they're straight off for a court appearance. Stop any dole, allowances whatever they're on until the bill is cleared for the mess they've made and put them on the clean up crew through the day and lock the feckers up at night. But that would be against their human rights as well so it'll never happen either!

[Wander00]

Bring out the water cannon.

[Tashengurt]

500N,
Seems the Police are very reluctant to "Police", assirt control and arrest in large numbers ?


The Police are reluctant to arrest in large numbers because in a riot situation it's very hard to do so. Pulling offenders from the crowd takes manpower. They won't come quietly and others will intervene to try to prevent it. Reckon at six officers per arrest?
Once arrested the offender then has to be taken back from the line, transported, detained and processed. They can only be held for twenty four hours so the investigation has to begin.
All this pulls manpower away from the front line. For many years now the preferred tactic has been to gather evidence at the scene and arrest later.

Of course there are other factors playing on the mind of each and every officer. For decades now the Police force has been subject to a continual process of confidence stripping through judicial second guessing and leadership pandering to Liberal hand-wringers.
Successive cases, Lawrence, Climbier, De-Menezes, Tomlinson and Connelly have all seen officers villified in lengthy inquiries that paid no heed to the environment in which officers are expected to make snap decisions.
This has led to an incredibly risk averse culture. One of the most often used phrases in British Policing today is "So we can't be criticized."
Everyone who's watched The Bill thinks they know how to Police. Never mind that each Officer trains for two years and continues to train throughout their careers, their professional judgement counts for naught until the wheel comes off and then all fingers point aghast as everyone wonders how the Police could possibly have let this happen.
What we're seeing isn't happening because the Police are letting it. It's happening because people with criminal intent are working in an organised way to take advantage of a stretched force to burgle and steal. Remember, those buildings aren't burning because they represented authority but becuase they want to destroy evidence once they've stripped them clean.

[500N]

Tashengurt

Well put.

We have the same problem here but when I was growing up in the UK,
the police were different.

"held for twenty four hours" is pathetic in situation like this.


On another note - it's interesting to hear of some communities standing their ground and the mobs leaving them alone. I think the Turks were mentioned
and one from another community on the radio over here saying the same thing.

.

[Whenurhappy]

The Prime Minister cannot order troops onto the streets of this country to subdue it's citizens. It is part of the constitution.
So all the Daily Mail readers and armchair experts can spout as much crap as they want.
This is down to the Civil Authorities.

One issue that surprises US colleagues is the ease at which military personnel in the UK can be mobilised to aid the civil power. There have been changes over the last few year,s because of the forces limited capacity to respond, but, for example, OP FRESCO (fire-fighters strike), requires no primarily legislation to be enacted. In the US, National Guard units can be called out by the Governor of that State, but usually Federal Troops cannot, under the principle of posse comitatus which was designed to limit the use of Federal troops in domestic law and order matters.

This last point has caused some problems on coalition operations abroad. In a previous appointment, I dealt with issues in the Balkans and we had problems with US Reserve and NG units that would not share intelligence on PIFWICS - on the mistaken belief that they would be breaking the Posse Comitatus Act, 1878. Interestingly, there are similar legislative impediments to German Military Intelligence sharing material with civil police, due to ahem, a historical legacy, ahem, of the Geheime Staatspolizei.

In the current situation in London, and elsewhere, unless military personnel are trained and current in Public Order duties, it would be extremely unwise to deploy them in a front line role. Clearly, ISR and logistical support are obvious roles. Troops could be used in a reassurance role – presence at airports, tourist locations, tube and railway stations, for example, to ‘sense and warn’. We’ve done this before and if you were to visit Rome, there is a strong Esercito presence on stations and in public places to deter the traditional livelihood of nomadic people from Eastern Europe.

[BOAC]

We need some Assad type action here - bring back the Tornados/Typhoos from Italy to bomb the 'feral rats'.

[dallas]

Cue The Sun with punchy graphic of squadrons of 'swing-wing hunter killer Torando RG4 [sic] with heat-seeking death ray anti-rioter pod' circling London. :hmm:

Didn't they claim a Tonka was helping hunt Raoul Moat?

[Wyler]

Military Aid To Civil Power may well be used. That means helping the Fire Brigade, maybe provision of medics, logistics etc etc. You will not, however, see Squaddies baton charging rioters.

[BirdController]

""tweets that the RAF may be drafted in to support police operations"

I'm guessing he means some kind of RW support?""

Perhaps he does mean airborne support, its what the RAF does reasonably well! (Albeit with a large AAC input).:=:=

[TBM-Legend]

You used the Army to put down riotous Indians etc in colonial days why not use them in London today?

Remember Enoch Powell's words...

He was right.

[Whenurhappy]

Yes - good idea TBM Legend. After all, the UK is still reaping what Brigadier Dyer sowed at Amritsar in 1919. It is probably the defining moment of Indian Nationalism, inasmuch as the 1916 Uprising in Dublin is/was for the people of the formerly financially indepedent Republic of Ireland.

[snagged1]

"You will not, however, see Squaddies baton charging rioters"

Pity as this is exactly what is needed to teach these arrogant thugs a lesson!

[Tankertrashnav]

Yep, putting the army on the streets will really sort it out quickly. Last time it was done in the the United Kingdom it took 30 years, and still there are flare ups. Was that the time scale you were thinking of? I'm talking about Northern Ireland, in case you had forgetten that it's part of the United Kingdom.

Water cannon - we dont have water cannon. Maybe we should have but it's no good bleating about it at the moment, they're just not there, unless PSNI came across from Belfast and bring a couple

[Exascot]

I cannot understand the reluctance to use water cannon, rubber bullets and tear gas. Sure, there may be serious injuries or even the odd death but it is their choice to be there on the streets.

This year in Greece many British tourists have been put off coming here due to similar problems in Athens. Roll up folks it is now worse in the UK :ok:

[BirdController]

""Water cannon - we dont have water cannon""

The RAF used too - Part of the Fire Section's duty in the 1960/70's was to train on riot control using the DP1 & DP2 fire trucks fitted with mesh screens and large roof mounted nozzle instead of the foam monitor

Wonder if there are still any around????????????

And was this what the minister meant...............

[Exascot]

BC they were talking about bringing them in from NI. And don't anyone talk about training - they just go and blast them :ok: I will volunteer.

[Nessa]

GR4s did help out with Moat, assisting Northumberland Constabulary search for him with LITENING IIIRD and RAPTOR pods.

[jamesdevice]

"""Water cannon - we dont have water cannon"""

Five heading up the M6 through lancashire a few weeks ago when Nothern Ireland started getting hot again
One in Police livery, four in camouflage. Looked like armoured cab-forward landies on steroids

[Epiphany]

Which Police Officer is going to have the balls to pull the trigger on the water cannon and hit some 'innocent' bystander with who it is subsequently discovered has learning difficulties and dies? The Officer will be risking a manslaughter charge.

The politicians and criminal justice system in UK have caused this problem and it will need someone with balls to fix it. There aren't any.

[Evanelpus]

I cannot understand the reluctance to use water cannon, rubber bullets and tear gas. Sure, there may be serious injuries or even the odd death but it is their choice to be there on the streets.

It is their choice, exactly. Once a thug has been clearly identified, give them the treatment. There's no way our police officers should have to put up with some of the things I've been watching on BBC and SKY News reports. Anyone caught throwing a rock or petrol bomb should be shot with a rubber bullet as far as I'm concerned.

It might take a few 'casualties' to make the rest of the ferral scum think twice about doing it again but that's something that's worth a go as far as I'm concerned.

[Exascot]

Epiphany, your comment has to apply to about 99% if not 100% of those rioting.

[everynowandthen]

POLICE INSPECTOR BLOG (http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/)

Interesting to read some of the comments that have been left by other officers too.

[green granite]

I think the RAF's contribution should be a few fully armed Apaches. :E

[pr00ne]

Water cannon, tear gas and baton rounds present two problems, well three really. One; they are totally indiscriminate, what happened last night happened in the heart of communities, there were all sorts of people around who were totally innocent and the riot/looters were appearing and disappearing like a flash. You start loosing off baton rounds and tear gas into that situation and you are just making everything worse and injuring, or worse, a lot of innocent people. Please don't tell me "they shouldn't have been there," where the hell do you go when your house is on fire? You have to get out and get out quick, as soon as you are out you are right in the middle of it. I also saw some lovely gestures of real kindness and support, locals making tea and coffee for the police, people pointing out ring leaders, groups of people guarding their own property etc. If you are firing baton rounds and tear gas around all that stops.

Two; escalation. You start popping off baton rounds in some of the places that were aflame last night and you are going to get people shooting back. Horrendous as last night was at least , so far, we have had no one killed.
Some of the rootin shootin mob on here would have turned last night into a massacre.

Third; it doesn't really work. Look at the French, they have water cannon, baton rounds and tear gas in Paris and the suburbs and it stopped none of it.

[WillDAQ]

I think the RAF's contribution should be a few fully armed Apaches. :E

Can you buy 30mm plastic bullets?

[Mr Grimsdale]

Two; escalation. You start popping off baton rounds in some of the places that were aflame last night and you are going to get people shooting back. Horrendous as last night was at least , so far, we have had no one killed.

BBC News - London riots: Man, 26, shot in Croydon dies in hospital (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14462693)

[Exascot]

"they shouldn't have been there,"

OK pr00ne. I will take your point on that one and nice to hear the 'blitz' spirit in the east end is still alive and well. However I still stand by by my comments when they are faced by obvious rioters.

Mentioning the blitz, I see that the Germans are warning their citizens to stay away from the UK Germany warns citizens about UK riots - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110809-36845.html)

I am too young to remember but did they do this in 1940?

[Exascot]

OK not Royal Air Force but maybe a certain HRH would like to take part. After all they could be torching his Grandmother's little pad in central London next. :eek:

[cazatou]

pr00ne

French Student riots are Tradition - what happened in UK last night was the result of semi-feral lawless Yobs being given free reign because those in command of the response are hampered by "Human rights Legislation" and "Health and Safety Legislation".

[Molesworth Hold]

Couldn't we nudge a few RAF Police from their slumbers, swear them in as Special Constables and send them down to London to help out with the traffic?

P.S. I know of somewhere that has about thirty helicopters already painted up in that yellow and black Police scheme.

[glad rag]

It'll be the Islanders -wot this lot?


http://www.theglasgowstory.com/images/TGSB00391_m.jpg


"If Dougie were here he'd tell ye"

[Roadster280]

Water cannon, tear gas and baton rounds present two problems, well three really. One; they are totally indiscriminate, what happened last night happened in the heart of communities, there were all sorts of people around who were totally innocent and the riot/looters were appearing and disappearing like a flash. You start loosing off baton rounds and tear gas into that situation and you are just making everything worse and injuring, or worse, a lot of innocent people. Please don't tell me "they shouldn't have been there," where the hell do you go when your house is on fire? You have to get out and get out quick, as soon as you are out you are right in the middle of it. I also saw some lovely gestures of real kindness and support, locals making tea and coffee for the police, people pointing out ring leaders, groups of people guarding their own property etc. If you are firing baton rounds and tear gas around all that stops.

Two; escalation. You start popping off baton rounds in some of the places that were aflame last night and you are going to get people shooting back. Horrendous as last night was at least , so far, we have had no one killed.
Some of the rootin shootin mob on here would have turned last night into a massacre.

Third; it doesn't really work. Look at the French, they have water cannon, baton rounds and tear gas in Paris and the suburbs and it stopped none of it.

Escalation is what's needed on the Police's part. They need to put down the riot in a ruthless manner. If the escalation on their part is so serious that the rioters lose the stomach for it, they will diffuse.

As Mr Machiavelli put it, "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared".

A shining example would be the nuclear escalation of WW2. The Japanese lost the stomach for it.

Tianenmen Square, for all its unpleasantness, wasn't repeated.

I don't see why people are so limp wristed as to permit, through inaction, this kind of behaviour on the streets of the UK.

I know the law and courts would make a complete dog's dinner of the aftermath. That's another thing that needs resolving. But crush the riots first.

[chopper2004]

Bring Blue Thunder to life from the media :ok: Project T:H:O:R

Tactical Helicopter Offensive Response, the "proposed use of military helicopters to quell disorder")

[pr00ne]

cazatou,

Oh please, read some history for Christ sake! Rioting and disorder is as traditional in London as it is anywhere and has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. If you don't believe me try googling "The London Mob:Violence and Disorder in 18th Century London" by Robert Shoemaker. Or try the 1913 Trafalgar Square riot, or the 1768 'massacre of St.Georges Fields, oddly enough that was about the detention of a known radical causing a riot in Lambeth and 7 were killed. Then there were the 1958 Notting Hill riots, and the 1932 riots following the National hunger March.

It's oh so easy to see this as the end of days, when in fact it is just something that has always happened.

[foldingwings]

The Prime Minister cannot order troops onto the streets of this country to subdue it's citizens. It is part of the constitution.
So all the Daily Mail readers and armchair experts can spout as much crap as they want.
This is down to the Civil Authorities.

Misguided, Wyler, and rather naive! There are many ways of skinning a cat!

The Riot Act may no longer be available but:

England and Wales

Riot is now defined by s.1 Public Order Act 1986, as follows:

(1) Where twelve or more persons who are present together use or threaten unlawful violence for a common purpose and the conduct of them (taken together) is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety, each of the persons using unlawful violence for the common purpose is guilty of riot. (2) It is immaterial whether or not the twelve or more use or threaten unlawful violence simultaneously. (3) The common purpose may be inferred from conduct. (4) No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene. (5) Riot may be committed in private as well as in public places.

Thus a single person can be liable for an offence of riot when they use violence, provided that it is shown there were at least twelve present using or threatening unlawful violence. The violence can be against the person or against property.

If there are fewer than twelve people present, the lesser offence of "Violent Disorder" is charged, for which there is a requirement for at least three persons to use or threaten unlawful violence together, and no common purpose is required.

In the past, the Riot Act had to be read by an official - with the wording exactly correct - before violent policing action could take place. If the group did not disperse after the act was read, lethal force could legally be used against the crowd.

Riot is an indictable offence under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, triable on indictment before a Crown Court, and punishable by up to ten years imprisonment.

Dealing with riots is an often difficult task for police departments, and police officers sent to deal with riots are usually armed with ballistic shields and riot shotguns, mainly because of the larger spread of the shorter barrels. Police may also use tear gas and CS gas to stop rioters. Most riot police have moved to using less-than-lethal methods to control riots, such as shotguns that fire rubber slugs and flexible baton rounds to injure or otherwise incapacitate rioters for easy arrest.

So bring in the troops, dress 'em in police uniforms, mix live round snipers with the "rubber slug and flexible baton round" officers and these morons'll soon bloody disperse!

Foldie:ok:

[cazatou]

pr00ne

Thank you for your suggestions as to how I can rectify my lack of knowledge in respect of the history of London. I would point out, however, that I was born and bred in London - as were my 3 brothers, my Parents and Grandparents - even so I did manage to absorb the history lessons in the East End Schools that I attended.

[pr00ne]

cazatou,


Well stop spouting inaccurate nonsense then!

[pr00ne]

grollie,


Are you eight years old?

[onetrack]

This is the 21st Century people. Things are different now. The rioters will be bragging on Faceb***, Tw****r, webpages, forums, emails, in videos, and in any amount of electronic methods.
Each one is traceable, and the anarchists and thieves are too dumb to realise the massive electronic trail they'll be leaving.
The Police just need the manpower to track down all the electronic trails, and then go and find and arrest the troublemakers. Simple really. They won't be able to help themselves, bragging about all the stuff they've pinched.

The bigger problem is that real punishment won't be in line with what they deserve. They deserve to be sent out cracking rocks with a sledgehammer at 50p an hour, until the authorities have recovered the full cost of the damage caused.

However, that won't happen. The jails are already full, and they'll be sent home with a sharp-telling off, and a community order... and the ordinary folks will be left to pick up the tab... via higher rates, taxes, and insurance premiums.

[pr00ne]

onetrack,

"..and they'll be sent home with a sharp-telling off, and a community order..."

The word in the legal community is quite the opposite. I know it's something that the more rigid on the right wing love to bang on about but sentences for violent affray and disorder are not really all that lenient, it's only the odd exception that catches the eye.
We are hearing that there is going to be pretty harsh sentencing for those caught. Good thing too.

[fincastle84]

They could use Nimrod's as an excellent stand off surveillance platform. It's also extremely useful as an automatic airborne relay for the police secure comms equipment.:ok:

Oh b&gger, "Call me Dave" scrapped them all while he was busy teaching us all how to hug a hoodie.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[BEagle]

They deserve to be sent out cracking rocks with a sledgehammer at 50p an hour, until the authorities have recovered the full cost of the damage caused.

Bit harsh on the RAF Regiment, surely?

[Exascot]

'Nice one' 'onetrack'

Police forces to cut more than 34,000 officers and staff | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/21/police-cut-30000-officers-staff)

[pr00ne]

cazatou,


Whilst not changing my opinion, my reply to you was needlessly rude.

It's been an emotional 24 hrs for me and I am dog tired and rather shooting from the hip.


Sorry.

[onetrack]

BEagle - :D:D:D :p

[cazatou]

pr00ne

Accepted - I have deleted my reply.

[MAINJAFAD]

Jamesdevice, don't need GPS to track a mobile phone, as all mobile networks need to know exactly were a phone is when it is switched on to be able to route signals via the basestations (in fact to increase the traffic flow, the propagation delays for the signals being transmitted from the phone to the basestation are taken into account, so the phone will stop transmitting just before it is due to recieve a data packet from the base station). Hence the range of the basestation to the phone is known to within feet. Also the phone will be polling other basestations within range to allow re-routing if traffic loads on the others are lower. All of this information on range to basestations is logged, and software will allow the location of the phone to be found at any time.

Why do you think OBL stopped using a mobile phone.

[fantom]

Get the Rock Apes out there with coshes (s*d the Human Rights bulwalks) and crack a few skulls.

Encourage les autres.

[jamesdevice]

MAINJAFAD

Thats what I was trying to say, however it didn't quite come out correct
Actually a modern smart phone can be tracked THREE ways
1) through phone mast triangulation
2) GPS
3) from the interaction between the phone and local WI-FI hotspots. These are mapped by Google, Sensorly and others and the phone can be interrogated / activated remotely without the user knowing

[sitigeltfel]

So bring in the troops, dress 'em in police uniforms, mix live round snipers with the "rubber slug and flexible baton round" officers and these morons'll soon bloody disperse!

Not sure if it applies to the modern baton round, but the old one could be removed from its cartridge and replaced with a U2 battery.

They don't like it up 'em!

[SirToppamHat]

... the old one could be removed from its cartridge and replaced with a U2 battery.

... or sausage meat I understand - sticks and burns, then off to A&E to wait for a bunch of thugs with mysterious sausage-meat-style burn injuries to turn up.

STH

[Alister101]

Would low level fastjets scare them off?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Would low level fastjets [sic] scare them off?


No! .

[WillDAQ]

Would low level fastjets scare them off?

No, but the Paveway will.

[A2QFI]

I am aware of your expertise in these matters. Just how easy is it to extract information from the records of millions of calls and texts? Perhaps this can't be posted in an open forum. We have already been told that "The police are trawling thru hundreds of hours of CCTV footage" - do the results justify the time spent? I am not decrying technology BTW - just wondering if it is cost effective!

[jamesdevice]

trawling the location records should be easy - once the phone companies have been forced to release them. Remember you don't need to prove who read what, or who sent what. All you need to know was who was when, and where - and match that with video footage and still photography
Face recognition software is getting good enough so that you can cross-match people from one location to another (that is standard Face-book capability now) in videos and photos

Once you identify the phone numbers of interest, then you can start reading the texts. Echelon will have the simple texts on record, while Blackberry say they'll co-operate over their encrypted BBS messages. Faceb00k/Twitter messages should be discoverable through the DNS servers records - and by reading the phones internet browser cache remotely (this again can be activated without the user knowing)

Then you have to ID the user. If the phone is on contract, then you've got a billing address. If the phone is purchased anonymously then it can be tracked in real-time by the location methods stated earlier. And can be intercepted by SIGINT/ISTAR aircraft

Even if the user changes the SIM card the phone can still be tracked in real-time through the other identifying codes




.....................................

WTF does Faceb00k get changed by the system software to Facebook? What **** thought that one up?

[L J R]

Bring on the Reaper.....

[Roadster280]

Jamesdevice - put your tinfoil hat away. Whatever "Echelon" is, assuming you are referring to government monitoring activity, it won't have any such blanket records in the UK. That would be illegal.

[pr00ne]

jamesdevice,


Fascinating stuff, very interesting. Tell me, I wonder what would happen if someone just threw away their phone and denied having it at the time? Or said that some ELSE had it?



Also, the word twitter, as spelt: tea, doubleU, eye, tea, tea, eeeh, arrgh, also gets changed to PPRune! WTF?

[TheWizard]

Slight thread drift but important to spread the word
London Disorder - Operation Withern - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627267892973/)

[jamesdevice]

"That would be illegal."
And we're supposed to believe that makes a difference? Theres enough evidence to indicate that all UK texts and e-mails are routinely screened


"Tell me, I wonder what would happen if someone just threw away their phone and denied having it at the time?"
Thats what anyone with half a brain would do. However there is no indication these people are that well endowed..... Of course if the phone evidence was also matched by video / photo evidence...
I suspect ( I don't know) that the phone evidence alone wouldn't be enough to prosecute. You'd need some other kind of confirmatory evidence either image or witness statement

Interesting that reports are now appearing of threats to harm Blackberry employees if the company releases its records to the police
BlackBerry blog hacked with pro-riot warning to RIM - Security Watchdog - a blog from V3.co.uk (http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/security-watchdog-blog/2100497/blackberry-blog-hacked-pro-rioter-warning-rim)
however the police are on the trail already
Mobile operators hold key data to help catch London rioters - IT News from V3.co.uk (http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2100445/mobile-operators-hold-key-help-catch-london-rioters)

Theres a page (for the media only) relating to their photos of suspects, and links to the first batch of photos here
Untitled Document (http://www.met.police.uk/pressbureau/Bur09/page07.htm)

[dogle]

A long time ago, I watched a solitary policeman restore calm in a crowd which had been growing larger and angrier by the minute. He had no radio, and I feel sure he did not even contemplate drawing his sidearm.

He just strolled nonchalantly by, no more than meaningfully twitching the issue short sjambok at his hip. Peace ensued at once; not a word was spoken, nobody was even touched, still less hurt. No need, because prospective troublemakers faced the certainty of immediate retribution - thus, no trouble.

The sjambok was sacrificed on the altar of 'political correctness' a while back, the pink fluffy mob seemingly unable to grasp that cracking the skulls of miscreants with cumbersome plastic bludgeons is somewhat less humane than delivering a (very) painful whack.

<dreaming> Had the pollies the spine to declare a State of Emergency ... all that elf-n-safety, 'uman rights stuff would be suspended ... bet all those withdrawn sjamboks are still sitting in stores somewhere ... if they were issued to a few support teams from the armed forces there would be an immediate outbreak of !respect! amongst the scrotes - end of riots, no broken bones, not a round discharged <just dreaming>.

[WE Branch Fantasist]

What we need is an aircraft carrier full of Harriers. It could sail up the Thames and deliver precision effects that nothing else on the planet is capable of doing.

[jamesdevice]

just hover and flatten the bastards with the jet blast
THATS "precision effects" surely?

[Really annoyed]

Have you noticed that the majority of the rioters are Black?

[pr00ne]

Really annoyed,

Have you noticed that the majority of the Police are white?

[pr00ne]

Really annoyed,


Heh, have you ALSO noticed that the majority of the Sikhs who are out guarding Southall Mosque from rioters and arsonists are a sort of brown colour?

[jamesdevice]

RA
not true
those photos seem to indicate roughly 50:50 black / white. and unless you've been there and actually seen it you can't have a clue, so please no more of that racist stuff unless you can actually prove it
Otherwise it appears that you're just talking with your arse again

or is it with your arrrrrrrghs???

[Unchecked]

WE Branch Fantasist

Brilliant :)

[TheWizard]

It seems the community vigilante mobs are coming out in strength tonight saying they can't sit back and watch the police do nothing again.
Fairly inevitable IMHO.

[foldingwings]

Would low level fastjets scare them off?

It did in Beirut!:ok:

Foldie:*

[Willard Whyte]

Water cannon.

Heathrow must have a few spare.

http://www.hawkesfire.co.uk/img/airport-firetruck.jpg

They could always be filled up with pink permanent dye too.

[jamesdevice]

the Police line is that water cannon are only effective against a static crowd.
These miscreants are attacking in rapidly mobile groups, making water cannon - and tear gas - ineffective

[Willard Whyte]

Still, I'd like to see them give it a go.

[500N]

"Still, I'd like to see them give it a go."

So would I, as well as Rubber Bullets and tear gas
(in certain limited situations).

[wokkamate]

Hey, look on the bright-side, there might be a few more Olympic tickets back on the re-sellers market now as people realise just what a sh*thole our country can quickly become and how hard it is to actually maintain law and order when faced with crowds of morons who do not realise the full effect of their lawless actions.

Don't blame the Police, they have their hands firmly tied through countless examples of 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'. Successive Governments have slowly eroded their ability to uphold the law through effective Policing and vastly reduced the numbers of officers on the streets.

Hopefully it will all fizzle out soon.......:ugh:

[jamesdevice]

this is being centrally organized.
Leaflets like this (from the Turygraph blogsite) don't come out of the blue

Anyone recognise the similarity to the classic destabilisation process prior to a coup or military takeover? Financial collapse, unemployment growing, weak government, contrived street riots
Now which politician is going to appear as our "national saviour" and stage a takeover?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01968/21cxauf_1968242a.jpg

[500N]

Wokkamate

Agree, Police have hands tied with all this Human Rights BS etc.

Water cannon with Semi Permanent Pink or Yellow dye - used selectively on confirmed rioters / looters.

Can you imagine these looters / rioters trying to go home afterwards with dyed Pink hair and skin ? (I assume most would take as many clothes off as possible once coloured).

[jamesdevice]

not dye - you need SmartWater SmartWater - Forensic Security and Consultancy (http://www.smartwater.com/Home.aspx)

they don't realise its on them

[tarantonight]

The situation we have is unseen for many years. I can recall, as I am sure many of you can, the serious disorder of 1981 and the effect that had on the UK as a whole.

What we have here is far worse and part of the reason is the advances in technology and the speed with which an event occurring in London can be communicated across the country. In theory, within minutes a similar act is being performed. It will be brought under control, but will take time and resources.

Theresa May and her Boss need to reconsider their plans for the Old Bill. Despite the fact we are being shafted - along with the military - we (and you), still put our lives on the line / necks on the block - and get on with the job.

The individuals involved are low lifes with nothing better to do. The individual shot and killed which sparked all of this was not just out for a drive to the shops. The latest revelation about who fired the shots has not helped, but that is a different matter altogether - the IPCC have however stated that rumours Duggan was killed 'execution style' as wholly incorrect or words similar.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

TN.

[wokkamate]

.....or permanent UV dye in the water cannons, canno tbe seen unless under UV lighting I believe - at the very least shows you were present, but would require other evidence to be given against you to prove a crime was committed.

Society needs to realise we can't have it both ways - if we want a robust Police and Security Service in the UK, defending us against Crime and Terrorism, mistakes will be made. We just need to suck that up in the knowledge that those Services will then have the correct powers to protect us.

Mistakes should be learned from, but should not lead to the kind of bleeding hearts knee-jerk that seems to happen, and that invariably leads the Service involved to not take any gambles in the future, or leads to their powers being bled out by Governent Legislation.

Bad Politician Monkeys......:=

[500N]

jamesdevice

Looks good. I can see it's usefulness.


I was thinking of the shame of the rioters having to talk through the suburbs covered with dye to get home. Some probably couldn't give a damn but I am sure some would.

And everybody would be looking at them. A powerful tool IMHO.

.

[Canadian Break]

A2, forgive me for saying so old man, but your question re mobile phones and data is not one to be asked in this company. CB:=

[barnstormer1968]

As some of us are trotting out what we would like to happen (as opposed to what will happen), lets not bother with PC nonsense like pink dye or smart water, and lets be like the KGB in the cold war days...........Lets spray them in radioactive matter!

We can either track the 'active' trail back to their houses, or........Just wait for them to appear in their local hospitals feeling a bit unwell:E

Of course, earlier on I was not feeling quite so vindictive, and just fancied seeing a few cops with miniguns:}

[Jimlad1]

"
Have you noticed that the majority of the rioters are Black? "

Well I'd be a bit surprised if any of them were green??? :E

[500N]

Canadian Break

Why ?

Fairly common knowledge (well was in my day in the UK) that Key words can be selected from phone calls etc and listened to later.

Or doesn't the UK do it anymore ?

.

[Willard Whyte]

Water Cannon (http://web.archive.org/web/20040626083201/http://www.jaycor.com/eme/watcan.htm)

It's a great concept.

Shame they couldn't get it to work properly.



The dye idea's been used, apparently.

Water cannon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cannon#Dye)

[stickmonkeytamer]

Is anyone else thinking that a CAS stack over London would be a good idea??? :E

SMT

[TBM-Legend]

London, who needs it?

Overrun by the trash from the old colonies. Burn it down, export the vermin and start again...:hmm:

[pr00ne]

"Is anyone else thinking that a CAS stack over London would be a good idea??"

Only dribbling lunatic idiots who shouldn't be allowed out on their own or be allowed to play with anything sharp or heavy....


Jeez!

[pr00ne]

TBM-Legend,


OR, a brilliant eclectic multicultural historic jewel that is the envy of most of the rest of the world.

Certain parts of it seem to be heaving with your compatriots all trying to make it in Law or serve behind bars in Covent Garden.

[Really annoyed]

that is the envy of most of the rest of the world.

No they don't. Most think it is a dump.

multicultural

Illegal immigrants sponging off of the rest of us. So now they are nicking televisions and white shell suits from JD Sports. Dats right innit blood like.

[pr00ne]

Really annoyed,


Borrocks! How come it's one of the top tourist attractions on the face of the planet then and has a hugely and wonderfully diverse population who are some of the most gifted in their field anywhere, not just "illegal immigrants."

I work with non EU asylum seekers in London. It is very VERY hard for them and to say that they are 'sponging' is both inaccurate and insulting.

[Really annoyed]

non EU asylum seekers in London

Ah yes, those people who stowed away in lorries and didn't bother to claim asylum in the first European Country they managed to illegally enter.

It is very VERY hard for them

I don't care. They should be sent back to whence they came.

[Roadster280]

a hugely and wonderfully diverse population who are some of the most gifted in their field anywhere

You could say that about the rioters too, but that doesn't mean it's good!

[glad rag]

I work with non EU asylum seekers in London.

So, so many ways to take that. :hmm:

[On_Loan]

On the third day of rioting my true love gave to me... 3 Nike trainers, 2 Greggs pasties and a 42" plasma TV..

[turboshaft]

not dye - you need SmartWater

Neat tech. But water cannon would be too indiscriminate. You'd need something targetable. Like a paintball gun. Maybe GDOTS could assist:

http://sjdrimages.com/Mb/UserUploads/aFVh8LKxw6Y745.jpg

[Jabba_TG12]

Much as part of me wants vengeance to sort these bastards out, I'm afraid that on reflection, Tanshengurt has it right.

I just wish these sad lefty bastards would stop making excuses for them. For gods sake, you're disenfranchised, you cant get a job, because you pissed your own education up the wall. You didnt give a toss, you dont want to do the jobs the Polish and the Eastern Europeans want to do, yet you want all the things that only a work ethic will give you. You can only blame yourself for your own failings FFS.

And thats before we even think about the open doors immigration policy, globalisation and outsourcing... which they fully embraced and encouraged for 13 years.

[Corporal Clott]

I vote for a trip to the armoury for all those with an in date weapons handling test.

"With a magazine of 30 rounds, standing, LOAD!"

"Make ready!"

"Front rank fire! Rear rank fire!"

Repeat 30 times..

"RELOAD!"

"Front rank...etc..."

It seemed to work a century ago and would sort out youth unemployment in about 30mins flat...

...now where did I leave my short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber?

:E

[500N]

Corporal Clott
I like it.

Modern day equivalent.
GPMG M60, 600 Rounds of 7.62 ball link.
Carry on !!!

Maybe the first burst or two over the heads, no response, the rest at chest level.

The "cone of fire" should clear the road nicely for a few kms.


Maybe a line abreast, fixed bayonets charge might have a similar effect.

[Lima Juliet]

What we need is leadership like we saw from Bromhead and Chard on that day...
http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a3/Zulu_Baker_Caine.gif/220px-Zulu_Baker_Caine.gif

Sadly, due to the social engineering of the past 60 years that went against core British values and beliefs, all we see is leadership like this...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sitcom/images/160/thin_blue_line_az.jpg

From "thin red line" to "thin blue line" in no time at all :{

Bring back Gene Hunt, all is forgiven!

LJ

PS The rot really set in when Bliar and his henchmen got in 13 years ago to finally blunt off society, create a Nanny State, support an under-class with no ambition (apart from booze, smoke and watch Sky) and generally buy off the votes of the dregs of society with unfaltering support.

[500N]

Leon
If you want to see a "Nanny state", come to Victoria in Australia.

I must add something to your PS Quote:-
"PS The rot really set in when Bliar and his henchmen got in 13 years ago to finally blunt off society, create a Nanny State, support an under-class with no ambition (apart from booze, smoke, go to the Football and watch Sky) and generally buy off the votes of the dregs of society with unfaltering support."

[iRaven]

Here's a good conspiracy theory. Why do we always get "rent a mob" riots/strikes when the Tories are in power but very rarely when Labour are in?

:hmm:

[The B Word]

An MP made a speech in Birmingham in 1968:

As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."

Whilst his comments have been deemed unsavoury over a long time, to which I wholeheartedly believe some were, there is also a lot that can be seen to be ringing true in that speech some 43 years later. For those that have never read it, then read it now Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html) and draw your own conclusions on whether he was right to varying degrees.

I believe that multi-culturalism in the UK has been failing for too long with pockets of population brewing trouble due to disharmony/isolation. Sending in Armed Forces will not solve this unless we are just looking to protect material assets, however, it is the soft assets that need attention if we are to fix this (and that is going to take a very long time).

The B Word

PS I am not a right winger or BNP idiot before anyone starts!

[pr00ne]

Cpl Pratt, sorry Clott,


That would just make you a mass murderer.

[pr00ne]

The B word,


Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish and rubbish!

What rivers of blood,? Where?

Take a look at the TV coverage of the Salford looters and arsonists, almost 99% white.

Rivers of Blood?

More like neanderthal dribblings.

[500N]

The B Word

He was right to an extent, his constituent said 20 years, Birmingham was settled by West Indians and others a lot quicker than that (based on the speech being 1968), The other lady who ran a boarding house, very true of what happened.

I think we, over here in Aust have a reasonably integrated multicultural society - at least in most parts they don't all live in the same area, or don't now although the Greeks and Italians did whent hey arrived but that has changed. We are starting to see a few problems like the UK, Gangs et al, Somalis being one.

[Scuttled]

pr00ne,

And the London rioters appear to be 99% black.

What's your point? You can't have it both ways.

You appear to represent a vocal left wing minority who quash any deliberation or conversation about such matters by hysterically shouting racist and demanding that we all fall into line. Your line. No middle ground or room for debate about the actual facts.

I don't actually disagree with all you say, but allow people an opinion. It's not pretty out there, so something seems to have gone wrong somewhere.



....... (stands by for inevitable personal incoming attack)

[The B Word]

Pr00ne

Being in an immigrant-heavy area does not automatically mean black, brown or yellow - maybe your own prejudice is showing through? I quite believe there are white people rioting. However, the problem stems from the areas where a high level of immigrant population reside which indicates a probable problem. A large majority of migrants to the UK are less afluent - they come here for the opportunity to better their lives, but when that fails they get upset (shattered dreams, lack of cash to fix the dreams and feeling of failure). They live in a close community with many in the same position (mostly from their racial or religious background) and the hatred of the "haves" and "have nots" begins to build. Next a riot.

Blood? Plenty. 30+ police officers on the first night, people with burns from arson attacks and plenty of rioters injured. You don't kick off and do stuff like the picture below without a drop being spilled!!!

http://www.insidethegames.biz/images/stories/Riots_London_mob_August_8_2011.jpg

My point is, sending in the Armed Forces will not solve it - the problem is too deep rooted. Sure the Armed Forces can guard key areas and make people feel safer, but it won't solve the root cause. That is what Enoch was trying to say in 1968. Sadly "social engineering" over the years has made opinions on immigration policy unspeakable for the majority.

Hopefully, that adds more to the debate of a serious issue than "Rubbish! Rubbish! Rubbish!"...:ugh:

The B Word

PS 500N, we appear in agreement Sir :ok:

[pr00ne]

Scuttled,

I just really REALLY do not like racism.

As for ".. a vocal left wing minority who quash any deliberation or conversation about such matters.."

Will you allow me to partially quote a post of mine in another thread when someone else asked me what's my point and what am I getting off on, I apologise for it's length.


"I believe very strongly in social justice, and in the wealthy powerful elite being brought to account. (I also recognise the irony there in my own earnings so work doubly hard to address such issues) I also happen to believe in the criminal justice system and that means everyone has a right to a defence. I believe that anyone who is caught in possession of a firearm, if they are proven guilty, should go to prison. Possession for 'self defence' is no defence in my view. The only people who I would allow to carry firearms would be the armed forces and certain specialist Police teams. There is NO need for anyone else to carry the damn things.

I also believe very strongly that every person has a right to live out their life without the risk of the Police shooting them dead because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. John Charles de Menezes death was a needless tragedy compounded by senior folk rushing out totally inaccurate statements in the immediate aftermath such as he jumped the ticket barrier, he wore a thick coat and that he ran away. The poor bastard simply got on a tube and was held down and shot seven times in the head and once in the body. Someone should have gone to prison for that death, and I do NOT mean the officers who carried out the shooting. It was a crime but it was NOT murder.

I split my practice between activity in the City in both London and New York, and working with asylum seekers and young adults who were abused as children who need something to do or somewhere to go when the system kicks them out at 18. I also flew Tooms with a navigator behind me in my youth, so yes, I've seen several 'nasty' sides of life.

I'm a Barrister, how on earth can I possibly believe that bad has more rights than good? People have rights, 'good' and 'bad' don't, so I have to confess to not really knowing what the hell you are blathering on about.

I also respect the rule of law, the one true distinction of a genuine democracy. When your Government or ruling party or family is above the law, then you have NO democracy, which is one of many, but probably the most important, reasons why I am a Republican. "

Anyone who robs, loots, burns, mugs or organises and inspires such activity deserves the very harshest penalty that the law can bestow. I get extremely cross when people simplify such behaviour with "they are black" and seem to think that is in itself a cause.
On Monday night/Tuesday morning I saw white people doing horrendous things and I saw black people doing horrendous things,. I also saw white people doing wonderfully kind things and I saw black people doing wonderfully kind things.

I must also apologise for being overly antagonistic and aggressive today. I spent Monday night in a pub on Mare Street in Hackney, got very little sleep, spent today helping tidy up. I saw a lot of very unpleasant things on Monday night, distressing things that I wish hadn't happened and that I hadn't seen. I also saw some wonderful examples of the milk of human kindness. As a result I have been far FAR too sensitive and aggressive in posting, I really should have ignored the fact that PPRUNE even exists today. If I have offended anyone personally then I apologise.

Goodnight.

[Corporal Clott]

Pr00ne

Mass murderer? That would depend if I was working to UK Rules of Engagement and the Right of Self Defence or not? The line "risk to life" is the key one to observe...and "proportionality" :=

300 rioters hell bent on inflicting harm on 20 troops guarding a residential area - 2 ranks of 10 firing on semi automatic would seem very "proportionate" in my book!

CPL Clott

[pr00ne]

Cpl Clott,

I wouldn't be prepared to defend you at the subsequent Courts martial!


Seriously, the scenario you describe is exactly and precisely why the armed forces are wholly and totally unsuitable for use in such circumstances.

[The B Word]

Neanderthal dribblings? Now who is being really racist!

Most people living outside Africa can trace up to 4% of their DNA to a Neanderthal origin, a consequence of interbreeding between the two groups after the great migration from the contintent.

:eek:

[500N]

B Word

"PS 500N, we appear in agreement Sir"

I had never read Enoch Powell's speech before - but I do remember him being a controversial figure in the 70's onwards (too young to remember before that).

I lived through the change and saw Birmingham "turn black" (not that I like the term but it describes it well) in a very short space of time so the speech struck a bit of a note with me.

Re immigrants and work - one of the reasons I think the Italians, Greeks etc ended up doing so well here in Aust is because they got off their backsides and worked damn hard - be it concreting, corner stores, brick laying, painting or digging through whole mountains almost by hand to create the Snowy Mountains River scheme (diverting water from a number of locations on one side of a mountain range to the other).

I am sure you have immigrants in the UK who are similar but I think here and in the UK you get a lot more who sit on welfare because it is so good.

Just my HO.

[500N]

pr00ne

" Cpl Clott,
I wouldn't be prepared to defend you at the subsequent Courts martial!
Seriously, the scenario you describe is exactly and precisely why the armed forces are wholly and totally unsuitable for use in such circumstances."

Then in situations like these, you make sure none are left alive to answer questions.


I understand where you are coming from but someone needs to knock a few heads together and teach these guys a lesson.

.

[pr00ne]

The B word,

Well done, got me hook line and sinker. Excellent!

500N

"...lot more who sit on welfare because it is so good."

Yep, £65.40 a week if you can prove that you have made three weekly valid attempts at finding employment, if you can't then it is stopped.

Surviving, because that's what it is, on UK benefits is no picnic and I cannot conceive of how anyone would imagine it to be "so good."

[pr00ne]

500N,


Oh, and by the way, some of these people that you would 'teach a lesson" and "knock their heads" together are 7 years of age. In Hackney I reckon the average age was around 14 or 15.

Still happy to indiscriminately murder seven year old girls?

[Corporal Clott]

Seriously, the scenario you describe is exactly and precisely why the armed forces are wholly and totally unsuitable for use in such circumstances.

And there are a lot of very frightened law-abiding city dwellers that would disagree with you right now. Rioters armed with guns (even if blank firing but converted to fire bullets like the idiot shot dead on Friday had), knives, Molitov Cocktails and clubs with a common cause - are they armed militia? Would they be seen as armed combatants? Are they directly endangering the lives of the troops or the people that the troops are ordered to protect? Is there no other way to prevent the loss of life? I would suggest that are times when the only "proportional" act would be to take life to protect non-combatants and troop's own lives.

Tomb pilot turned lawyer - now that does make me chuckle! :p Do you shout at the Judge louder to win the debrief!!?

CPL Clott

[500N]

pr00ne
OK, valid point, welfare over here must be better than in the UK.


Re knocking heads together, who remembers the anecdotes or media reports of the time the local copper, instead of charging someone for a minor thing gave them a quick boot up the backside with an "on yer way" or gave them a "thick ear" and delivered to the parents - who generally agreed with the Policeman's actions ?

[500N]

pr00ne
Re " 500N,
Oh, and by the way, some of these people that you would 'teach a lesson" and "knock their heads" together are 7 years of age. In Hackney I reckon the average age was around 14 or 15. Still happy to indiscriminately murder seven year old girls?"

"In Hackney I reckon the average age was around 14 or 15 "who are looting, setting fire to buildings, running around with knives, shooting people dead, beating up old men" (A middle-aged man (pictured) from Ealing, west London who was attacked by black teenagers during the riots is fighting for his life in hospital after confronting the yobs for setting two industrial bins alight"
then Yes, they can suffer the consequences.

You can't have it both ways - although with the soft cock EU human rights crap they likely will.

.



.

[Scuttled]

Pr00ne,

Great measured post.

Your anger with the whole situation is now crystal clear and put your, erm, outburst into context. Fully understand your frustration.

Have a good night.

[kaikohe76]

Unfortunately folks, the UK is now sufferring the result of far too much `Political Correcrness` over a too longer period, all the chickens have come home to roost.
Was it not the present UK Home Secretary who very often kept spouting, that the UK was now a `multi cultural society`, quite what that means is open to debate.
What is now needed in the UK, is strong, brave, decisive leadership & direct action against the current wave of violence. Of course with the present load on both sides of the Commons, there will be much wringing of hands, but little in the way of courage & forthright action. Unfortunately the Iron Lady is not available, but I just wonder how she would have sorted the present mess out. For a start she would have kicked many ars*e & called many people to account, before sorting out the present mess rather quickly I feel.
I personaly do not think the Military shold be involved, unless they are given total & complete control, even to the use of live ammunition against looters etc, should this be required.

[TBM-Legend]

Bring back National Service.

You need discipline not mamby pamby stuff...

The dumbing down of the West is the problem...

[500N]

"Unfortunately the Iron Lady is not available, but I just wonder how she would have sorted the present mess out. For a start she would have kicked many ars*e & called many people to account, before sorting out the present mess rather quickly I feel."

Agreed.


"I personaly do not think the Military shold be involved, unless they are given total & complete control, even to the use of live ammunition against looters etc, should this be required."

I'd like it to happen BUT, 1. Do we have the troops, 2. As some one posted bfore, are they trained in RIOT Control, 3. Would the Gov't really declare Martial law or whatever they have to do to pass complete control over to the Military (a la the Iranian Embassy). Was that the last time the British Military shot people on mainland UK soil ?


TBM
Agree totally.
.

[Lima Juliet]

Individual benefits can include (for a 25 year old):

Council Tax Benefit £67.50
Employment Support Allowance £67.50
Housing Benefit £67.50
Income Support £67.50

Not all at once, but certainly up to 3 out of 4. Plus you get more as a couple or if you have dependants. But they do need to be a resident for a couple of years if married to a UK national or 5 years if not.

Asylum seekers are different, they cannot work so can apply for financial support if they are destitute. The level of support is currently as follows:

Married couple (or in a civil partnership): £75.52
Lone parent aged 18 or over: £43.94
Single person aged 18 or over: £42.62

Pregnant women and women with children aged under three get additional help. They can also be housed, the Home Office uses private landlords and never in London or the South East, so they are not taking accommodation from UK citizens.

That will add up to a significant sum, especially when you consider the figures above are per week!

LJ

[The B Word]

Rivers of blood?

Some 111 Met officers have suffered injuries including serious head and eye wounds, cuts and fractured bones after being attacked by rioters wielding bottles, planks, bricks and even driving cars at them. Five police dogs have also been hurt.

You betya...:(

[sisemen]

I vote for a trip to the armoury for all those with an in date weapons handling test.


What an absolute load of bollocks!

What about those of us who haven't got an in date test??

PS Can supply own weapons if needed.

[rh200]

Still happy to indiscriminately murder seven year old girls?

If there's seven year old girls out doing it, then they should be removed from their parents (opps look like they already are). Or are you trying to say that with all the mamby pamby pc stuff we have now parents that can't control their 7 year old girls, if that's the case they have no chance of controlling a teenage boy.

[500N]

The Police can't seem to stop them but .............. selective editing from the Telegraph.

It's good to see some people have the balls to stand up and fight.

"Locals in Clapham Junction, Dalston and Whitechapel took to the streets and faced down the mob on Monday night after realising that police were too over-stretched to help."

"John Comyn, who has lived in the area all his life, said: “Most people I spoke to were local and couldn't believe what was happening. No one wanted to venture down St John's Road but we weren't going to let them ruin our street."

"
“People were still looking on and taking pictures but we weren't letting anyone in a mask or hood through. Whenever people tried people in the line rounded on them and they would turn back. This happened fairly regularly, in fairly small groups.”
Laurie Noble, who runs a shop on Battersea Rise, saw four of the men in the “human barrier” chase a looter away.
“There was a bloke with a mask and he had loads of handbags over his shoulder and round his neck. A bunch of blokes on Northcote Road started shouting at him and he dropped the bags. They chased him down the road. I thought 'well played to them',” she said."


In one of east London’s most fashionable districts, shopkeepers brandishing makeshift weapons took to the streets.
As nearby Hackney was targeted by rioters and looters, the mostly Turkish owners of barber shops and food stores in Dalston pulled the shutters down on their premises and stood guard outside.
Some were seen carrying tools to protect themselves and their businesses, as police officers were scarce in the area late on Monday night.
When suspected looters were seen in the area, the shopkeepers and their families ran shouting after them up the main road, Kingsland High Street

"Jerry Keshin, who runs Jerry's Food and Wine on Stoke Newington Road, said: “I shut early because I heard they were coming. I went down to Hoxton to get my boys and we drove back up and saw a group of about 10 rioters who were on their way into our area. We chased them into one of the estates and had it out. “Then we came back to the corner of Shacklewell Lane to keep the area safe. A load more of them came through at about 11.40 but the whole community was out to chase them away.
His friend Aykut Boyraz said: “The community is close and we all know each other. We're not going to have any riots around here. It doesn't matter if you're Turkish, if you live round here we'll defend you.”"


Shopkeepers in Harlesden, north-west London, also defended their businesses as others fell victim to the looters.
Up to 20 youths carrying pieces of wood and even mop handles tried to break into Best Buy on Harlesden High Street but locals said the staff were “not having it”.

[rh200]

John Comyn, who has lived in the area all his life, said: “Most people I spoke to were local and couldn't believe what was happening. No one wanted to venture down St John's Road but we weren't going to let them ruin our street

And thats the only real way it can work, the police are the first line of defence. When things get out of control on a social level, its the people who have to stand up for themselves.

[Neptunus Rex]

I also happen to believe in the criminal justice system and that means everyone has a right to a defence.Cpl Clott,

I wouldn't be prepared to defend you at the subsequent Courts martial!Dichotomy?
Besides, how many times is poor old Cpl Clott going to be arraigned?

[500N]

"Cpl Clott,
I wouldn't be prepared to defend you at the subsequent Courts martial!"
Dichotomy?
Besides, how many times is poor old Cpl Clott going to be arraigned? "


After the volley fire, I think Cpl Clott will die leading his section from the front in a bayonet charge, awarded the George Cross and buried with full military honours !!! :)

[Neptunus Rex]

The best quote from all this sorry mess:
His friend Aykut Boyraz said: “The community is close and we all know each other. We're not going to have any riots around here. It doesn't matter if you're Turkish, if you live round here we'll defend you.”"Now those are immigrants worth having. True Brits.

[ex-fast-jets]

If they hunt and loot like animals, treat them like animals - no matter the age, colour or creed.

Human Rights should only apply to those who behave like human beings.

[500N]

BomberH

Well said. Should be written into law.

That's the problem, they behave like animals, then when the police get "heavy", they claim abuse of their human rights.

[Wander00]

The best description was by an angry shop owner on BBC News last night - -"feral rats"

[chopabeefer]

Pr00ne

Re: your comment that the world 'envy's' London.

Mates (Captains both) at a very large US Airline, and another at Cathay, both tell me that London is the sh*t trip that nobody wants. They would rather nightstop almost anywhere else. It is my Capital City, and I am fiercely proud to be British, but I have to agree. London is a complete cesspit - I feel like a foreigner there. I don't think we should burn it down though - too many beautiful buildings, however, the Queen Mary in California is also a thing of beauty, but it is still infested with rats. Same thing really. Don't burn London, but the scum that have infested it, and are moving like a plague throughout the country? Different matter. This country allowed in immigrants and is paying the price. They will transform this nation into something less that it has ever been. Look around - it is happening in front of us, and our Gov't are the one's who welcomed them with open arms.:(

[Laarbruch72]

both tell me that London is the sh*t trip that nobody wants. They would rather nightstop almost anywhere else.


Your mates are talking rubbish, go on Tripadvisor and the destination discussion forums are listed by most popularly discussed city, London is often #1 and is rarely less than #3. It doesn't struggle for visitors. I'd guess that you and your friends haven't been in a while.

[A2QFI]

I have just seen/heard on the BBC that residents who gathered to protect their property and possessions (a la Turks) were dispersed by police in case they caused violence

[rh200]

I have just seen/heard on the BBC that residents who gathered to protect their property and possessions (a la Turks) were dispersed by police in case they caused violence

Didn't I say if that happened, the police would act real quick. Besides they probally thought it a surprise to actually have people listen to them for a change and do as they are told.

[BEagle]

I think that the 'London' comment was a comment on the venue for an airline nightstop, rather than as somewhere for tourists to visit?

The problem with daring to raise the issue of a limit on immigration is that one is immediately labelled as being a racist, white supremacist rather than as a normal middle-of-the-road Englishman who wishes merely to avoid the country losing its uniqueness and becoming overwhelmed by non-British ways of life.

Woolly-headed liberal champagne-socialist republicans with their Utopian left wing philosophies are an extreme danger to our normal way of life. That anyone should view the greedy, feral rats running riot in our cities as anything other vermin to be put down as would any other species of vermin is frankly bizarre to many normal people.

Unfortunately we can't simply cull them, so when these rats are finally rounded up, they should be sent to the harshest prison regime we can identify.

Counter-terrorist 'agencies' now view parts of what is supposed to be our capital city as a foreign country. That's particularly true of south-east London; it isn't 'racism', it's fact - as I was told only 2 weeks ago.

[glad rag]

Is there no other way to prevent the loss of life?

Sure is but that would require that firstly a particular knee jerk law be overturned and secondly the lawmakers would have to side with the victims, and that ain't going to happen.:(

[kaikohe76]

re post by A2 QFI & RH 200

Simple resolution of this situation.
- Law abiding citizens of the UK do NOT have any rights.
- Scum bag Looters, Rioters etc who are arrested by Police, DO have rights
- Law abiding citizens should therefore, torch Police vehicles, loot shops etc & get arrested by Police, they would then HAVE rights.
Very sad this folks, but it's only the obvious result of far too many years of gutless non action by successive Governments & their mamby pamby approach to such situations like this. Of course also, the Human Rights of looters, rioters etc must be protected at all costs & definitely over & above any rights of any law abiding citizen.

[sitigeltfel]

Unfortunately we can't simply cull them, so when these rats are finally rounded up, they should be sent to the harshest prison regime we can identify.

The countries that have provided the UK with these criminals should be forced to take them back. I would reckon that all of these countries receive massive aid from the UK and that it should stop immediately if they refused the repatriation.

Tear up the human rights act now and give the country back to the law abiding citizens. Also, a few politicians swinging from the gibbet at Tyburn would concentrate minds. :E

[chopabeefer]

Laarbruch 72

As Beagle says - referring to London as a crew nitestop (though that was obvious from the wording of my post - are you a foreigner?). Airline crews hate it - filthy and full of lowlife's, hotel staff that don't speak english, and crap food. Their words, not mine.

BTW I bet I spend more time in London than anyone else who does not actually live there. It is a complete Sh*thole. Filthy, unfriendly, and with an air of foreboding about the place.

We all know the reason why - go to be careful about saying it though, less I be branded a racist.

[muppetofthenorth]

So, it was just me who saw the 99% of rioters in Manchester, Liverpool, Gloucester and West Brom as being white, indigenous Brits, then...?


Not a race issue, it's a youth education issue.

[500N]

muppetofthenorth

Watch it, you might incur the wrath of Pr00ne - or should I say Prune !!!:O

Having just realised he speaks the same on the Rhodesian Thread,
he certainly has the same theme running through his posts.

[muppetofthenorth]

Sorry, am rightly chastising myself for daring to speak sense.

[rh200]

So, it was just me who saw the 99% of rioters in Manchester, Liverpool, Gloucester and West Brom as being white, indigenous Brits, then...?

classic case of me too, copy cat. Its a theme thats being carried out slowly but surely over the western world. Young people who are realising that the authoritys don't actually have much authority. And those things called values, boring, stuff it, its all about fun. You get a small example of it where groups of a hundred or so teenagers try to gate crash partys and then riot, common theme.

[A2QFI]

I think it is a parenting/parental control issue.

16 year old hoodie comes home at midnight, smelling of smoke and carrying a 42 in flat screen TV. Do parents ask him where he has been? No - they ask if it has built in Freeview!

[500N]

Now before I get stomped on for reading the DM, i don't get much choice from where I am but I do try to cross reference reports before I post.

Have a read of the following. my comment is this. Because the police did not come down hard the first night, that is why it escalated - because the gangs of rioters were being allowed to get away with it, so more joined in and hey presto, the whole country went off. It is interesting to see that the Manchester Police hit back HARD straight away.

Your views ?

"Police were ordered to 'stand and observe' rioters as they laid waste to London's streets instead of confronting them, it was claimed today.
Scotland Yard insiders have revealed teams were frustrated at their inability to wade in and arrest troublemakers while they looted and burnt out shops.

They had apparently been told to try and contain any violence but not to haul away offenders who would instead be identified through video footage later, according to The Times.

It was only on Monday night, when the riots escalated still further, that tactics changed and armoured vehicles called Jankels were used to disperse the crowds.

On Tuesday night, some 16,000 officers also flooded London's streets - almost triple the previous night's deployment - and they were finally given the green light to confront the gangs.

[muppetofthenorth]

A link to 'A Police Inspector's Blog' [or something along those lines] was posted in the thread on jet blast, the thing that grabbed me most that was despite the police themselves saying they knew of the want for them to be harsh they kept saying to each other "remember Tomlinson".

Can't blame them for not wanting to get done.

[500N]

"David Cameron approves water cannon"

It will be interesting to see if they actually use it.

.

[NutLoose]

Now all they need is some nice glow in the dark flourescent Pink dye to put in the water cannon, so they can pick them up later on, and those they miss won't be seen dead in their ruined pink clothes.

Posted elsewhere which I thought wasn't far from the truth..

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4351/1fujrg.jpg


Of course one would never condone self protectionism, but oddly enough if you look here
Amazon.co.uk Movers and Shakers: The biggest gainers in Sports & Leisure sales rank over the past 24 hours

Some of Amazons baseball bat sales are up 26,000 % telescopic truncheons 35,000%

And some of the comments on the items range from


This is the perfect alternative to a society that is progressive that has long banned firearms. It's long cylindrical taper designed is perfect for distributing brain matter of feral youth trying to harm you. It comes with a 30 day money back guarantee to be free from manufacture defects.


:E

[sisemen]

Birmingham military spectacular


Whether you prefer massed marching bands, exciting displays or the spectacular Grand Finale there is something for everyone at the 2011 Christmas Birmingham International Tattoo at The NIA, Birmingham on Saturday 10th December at 6pm and Sunday 11th December at 2pm.


Apparently one of the highlights is the set piece in which teams of military specialists compete to see how many chavs/rioters they can knock down with water cannon and rubber bullets.

[Gaz ED]

From another well-known military forum:-

This is clearly the beginning of the Zombie Armageddon. There can be only one response; kill all within the infected area. Aim for the head!

:D

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Without wishing to fuel the "racist" discussion(?) it's interesting to note that our major cities up here seem (so far at least...I shouldn't tempt providence)to be free from the wanton criminality blighting England. It's also interesting to note that there are relatively few Afro Caribbean ghettos, but plenty of white, and Asian ones! So, why no mindless vandalism, arson, stealing or despicable thuggery on the scale being suffered down south? Perhaps the answer lies in my second sentence.
Before some F*ckwit writes to tell me about the violence and catholic/ protestant nonsense up here.. I know I live just outside Glasgow (and I support "the Jaggies" because it's a non controversial option) Back to topic, policemen I know talk of the copycat syndrome and add that just about all of the troubles originate from or near to a black ghetto and it's only the young blacks who have the balls to start the trouble and the weak spineless whites come out later. That seems to link in with the reported pattern. A retired very senior police officer remarked on the radio at the beginning of this tragedy for England, that he could and did predict where the next trouble would come from.
Finally, I care not a hoot whether the perpetrators are black, white, yellow,brown or rainbow, or how old they are (that includes your 7yr old girl Pr00ne) they need to be given an immediate short sharp reminder that what they are doing is wrong.

[Willard Whyte]

I do like the look of those heavy duty police wagons that were on the news the other night. Look like converted Ford F-Series trucks.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Willard Whyte

These were the vehicles - made by Jankel - and indeed they are based on the Ford F-450.

Jankel (http://www.jankel.com/products/product-details.cfm?pID=11)

The vandals didn't seem too keen to stand in the way when the vehicles charged down the street !

[Finningley Boy]

If it pisses down tonight, that my be the one thing that halts the rioters in their tracks!:ok:

For now at least...:uhoh:

Also, as for long term preventative measures, I understand reflexology is ideal for reducing pent up rage and over exuberant misdirected energy.:ooh:

FB:)

[500N]

ROG

As much as Pr00ne might like to say that we are otherwise (ie racist), I think most people go along the same lines as you. I do. It's not colour, it's what they are doing.

"Finally, I care not a hoot whether the perpetrators are black, white, yellow,brown or rainbow, or how old they are (that includes your 7yr old girl Pr00ne) they need to be given an immediate short sharp reminder that what they are doing is wrong."


Interesting that some of the media - and photos which are undeniable - have highlighted the ages of some of the perbs.

.

[500N]

It is interesting to see some of the reactions of parents when the kids have been arrested, including an 11 year old boy. (Pr00ne, are you going to defend him in court ?:O)

Now what if they hadn't been arrested. Would the parents have known ?

Would have been good IMHO if they had turned up back home with Yellow dye all over them. Might have had some explaining to do.

.

[Really annoyed]

This thread should be on Jet Blast.

[Finningley Boy]

RA

Stop shouting, its not big and its not clever.

FB:)

[500N]

Really annoyed

As I said on the other thread Re your post re Jet Blast, I don't disagree with you but we don't make or implement the rules.


So instead of shouting at US, why not send a PM to the MODERATOR because they are the one's who can move it instead of waiting fro him to read it. We can't do it, so stop being such a dick head. Or just don't read or comment on the thread.

You are probably the type that kicks the dog because the cat peed on the carpet !

[airpolice]

ROG,

I think you will find the difference is that the English residents are only afraid of the Law, but bad people living in Scotland are afraid of the Polis.

I can't imagine Glasgow cops allowing their cars to be set alight. They are more likely to drive into the crowd.

Perhaps it is time for the MET to realise that the rules of engagement have been set by the looters, not by the courts. Once the operational commanders get their heads into that way of thinking, some real progress can be made.

[PTT]

Not my idea of progress. My idea of progress is a return to peace and a semblance of democratic equality, not the jackbooted crushing of a perceived underclass who isn't acting "nice" at the expense of the very laws which we're castigating them for breaking.

I believe "maintenance of the aim" is still a basic tenet of any strategy, and the aim in this case is to maintain the rule of law. You don't achieve that by throwing those laws out of the window.

[Roadster280]

I can't imagine Glasgow cops allowing their cars to be set alight. They are more likely to drive into the crowd.

Quite so. I've posted this before, but my Dad was a copper in Liverpool in the 70s. There was a very simple rule - you DID NOT f*** with Liverpool Police. I remember my Dad took a hiding in an alley one night. He was off sick for a month or so. About 2 weeks in, his oppos caught the villain. Cue my Dad going into work, returning a couple of hours later with bruised knuckles and a look of satisfaction on his face.

He'd have been strung up for that today. But back then it was Big Boys Rules, on both sides. Gene Hunt exactly.

I don't remember any riots in the 70s in Liverpool. 80s, yes, but that's when the softly softly stuff came in.

Some weasels stand behind the letter of the law when it comes to morally wrong but legally defensible (however tenuous) behaviour. What they don't seem to consider is whether the law needs changing.

[Jane-DoH]

I don't want the military to get called in, or martial law to be declared or something like that, but I don't get why the police won't just get the water cannons and rubber bullets out and just hose down the rioters and pop some rubber bullets at them.

It still blows my mind how one guy getting shot by a cop managed to cause such a disastrous riot.

[500N]

PTT

How is stopping looting, rioting and all the other crap (even if it is by use of water cannon, rubber bullets and baton charges and / or arresting the offenders "jackbooted crushing of a perceived underclass who isn't acting "nice" at the expense of the very laws which we're castigating them for breaking."

If they behave like animals, they need to be bought back to a standard by whatever means needed. I am sure if we went to their house and rioted and set fire to it, they would say the same.

[overun]

CCTV is not needed, just round up the ones in sparklingly clean trainers and jogging clothes, watching several flat screen t.v.`s in one room.
Then it would get racist with human rights lawyers involved.

Oh Jane, the guy getting shot has nothing to do with this outrage. Just a normal day out for the thugs, given half an excuse with our shambolic "compensation mentality", and the fortunes to be made by human rights lawyers. Cherie Blair made a mint, obviously not on the back of her hubby. Just coincidence, l`m sure.

[Father Jack Hackett]

I don't buy the argument from a previous poster that the Tomlinson case has caused the Met's reluctance to employ robust tactics. That was a clear case of an innocent bystander being abused by police. We have seen 100s of clear-cut instances during these riots where a blatantly riotous mob needed a good shoeing.

We're not just talking about protection of property, it's amazing that some poor sod wasn't burnt to death. One good citizen in Ealing who attempted to stop the Mob committing arson is now in a coma and fighting for his life.

Hell, even under card alpha you can use reasonable and proportional force to protect the life of yourself and others.

[XV277]

FJH,

If you talks to the cops in the street, that is exactly the situation - they see the cop who pushed Tomlinson as being 'set up' under trial by television, and don't want the same to happen to them. I've argued with friends of mine (some ex-Forces) who are cops about this, that it was a disproportionate use ot force, but they see it as having been part of the street clearing actions, he was dawdling, so was given a shove to hurry him up.

Part of the problem is that the Police don't appreciate that the public don't understand the tactics they use in these situations, nor do they appreciate that in the main law abiding citizens who are 'bystanders' don't take kindly to being spoken to or approached aggressively by Public Order control cops.

[rh200]

Part of the problem is the latent anti establishment feeling in most of us. Hence we tend to give some lip or attitude when we are told to do something by the authorities. Its simple really, if mister plod tells you to move on, then move on, and don't dawdle.

The trouble is cops have to deal with all sorts every day of their lives, majority of the time they get it right, they don't really need people making it hard for them just for the sake of it. They are human and frankly I don't know how they manage to maintain control of themselves after being spat on, cr@p thrown at them and abused constantly.

[sitigeltfel]

Without wishing to fuel the "racist" discussion(?) it's interesting to note that our major cities up here seem (so far at least...I shouldn't tempt providence)to be free from the wanton criminality blighting England.

I see the BBC has told its presenters to stop labeling the riots "UK" and to call them English instead.

Also some bampot in Dundee has been charged with inciting riots in the city via the Book of Faces. They could use Wallaces Pies to break the windows I suppose :yuk:

[PTT]

500N
How is stopping looting, rioting and all the other crap (even if it is by use of water cannon, rubber bullets and baton charges and / or arresting the offenders) "jackbooted crushing of a perceived underclass who isn't acting "nice" at the expense of the very laws which we're castigating them for breaking."I was responding to airpolice's assertion that "the rules of engagement have been set by the looters, not by the courts." Ignore the courts and you act at the expense of the law, not in enforcement of it.
If they behave like animals, they need to be bought back to a standard by whatever means needed. I am sure if we went to their house and rioted and set fire to it, they would say the same. Dehumanisation isn't the answer (you could well argue it is the root cause of the problem), and two wrongs don't make a right.

On a wider note, water cannon etc are great against static mobs who are there to face off against the police, but they take time to set up and are fairly useless against a mobile mob which is actively avoiding confrontation in favour of looting.

[Wander00]

But get the little b@@ggers soaking wet, and they would probably run back to the pub to find Mum

[Deskex76]

Greater Manchester Police have started publishing sentences on a well-known social networking site beginning with "T" (@gmpolice). Nice to see that the Beak has awarded four months' youth custody to one young fellow for "Ranting and swearing at police".

[NutLoose]

Might even sway the police budget, see we need a war at home to sort out the military one, can we invade Wales?? :rolleyes:

[Runaway Gun]

Good point NutLoose, can the politicians not draw any parallels between the Police problem, and the military cuts?

If they think riots in the cities is bad, wait until they see what an entire country at war is like.

[Neartheend]

Ranting and swearing at police

Heres a question, I was watching a re run of 'coppers' and Manchester Police were dealing with a march by some group or other. One marcher shouted 'F88k off' and a copper said if you swear again you'll be arrested for breach of the peace. The marcher swore again and was rightly nicked. Then the copper starts shouting at the guy 'stop p*ssing me about' and pushed him forcably against the back of a Police van. Now my question is what constitutes 'swearing and ranting' and should the copper have arrested himself to make it fair.... discuss :confused:

[Tashengurt]

Hmm, Was he definately arrested for a BoP? That offence requires serious harm to any person or damage to property to be immediately likely. (that's not the exact offence wording for the pedants)
More likely I would have thought would be an arrest for S5 Public order. This is a favourite where persons are swearing because it covers disorderly conduct likely to cause harassment, alarm and distress. Increasingly though, we're seeing courts rule that Police Officers can't be the alarmed person because they should have a higher tolerance of such behaviour.
As for the cop swearing. This isn't always terribly professional or dignified but I don't think theres much mileage in debating whether a "f*ck" is worse than a "p*ss" or vice versa.
Personally, I'm a fan of communicating at a level that can be understood. A quick "F*ck off sunshine" whispered in the ear of a miscreant can be surprisingly menacing and effective if done well.;)

[NutLoose]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=198609&d=1313154346

Posted elsewhere, notice something? :E

[500N]

Tashengurt

"Personally, I'm a fan of communicating at a level that can be understood. A quick "F*ck off sunshine" whispered in the ear of a miscreant can be surprisingly menacing and effective if done well.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif"

The modern day version of the old coppers "clip around the ear" or swift kick up the bum with an "on yer way".

I agree, when done well, very effective.

.

[ZH875]

can we invade Wales?? :rolleyes:

What's the point in that. Wales is not a country like Scotland, Wales is part of England, in fact it is probably England's largest county.:ooh:

[500N]

It amazes me some of people who have been caught up in this.

Millionaires daughter, School assistant, Aspring model, Parachute Regt Gunner.

Certainly not all down and out.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Ranting and swearing at police
Heres a question, I was watching a re run of 'coppers' and Manchester Police were dealing with a march by some group or other. One marcher shouted 'F88k off' and a copper said if you swear again you'll be arrested for breach of the peace. The marcher swore again and was rightly nicked. Then the copper starts shouting at the guy 'stop p*ssing me about' and pushed him forcably against the back of a Police van. Now my question is what constitutes 'swearing and ranting' and should the copper have arrested himself to make it fair.... discuss http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif


What happened to this then? did he not get the card??


A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: ‘Officers are issued with a memo card providing useful guidance on the execution of their powers.

‘In particular it reminds them that the courts do not accept that simply swearing at a police officer is grounds for an arrest and illustrates how the Met has had to make settlements in the past when officers have arrested solely for this.’


Read more: Swearing at police 'is no longer an offence' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008466/Swearing-police-longer-offence.html#ixzz1Us4evYAo)

[Secret1]

I'm up a 1£, having bet my friend last week that at least one soldier would be involved and arrested..Inevitable, sadly.
How many more soldiers to be arrested? or how many have got away with it?

[tarantonight]

I think you may have got your facts slighly confused. BoP is the least serious of all 'Public Order' Offences.

The courts are thankfully treating offenders involved in the recent disorder with the contempt they deserve and dishing out immediate custodial sentences.

The Namby Pamby Lefty Pinkos will no doubt be calling fall and saying 'It doesn't do any good'. It does, whilst these oiks are locked up, they are not committing crime and making peoples lives a misery.

Many many individulas have had their lives changed forever by mindless, brainless halfwits.

TN.:ugh:

[airborne_artist]

Nice to see that the Beak has awarded four months' youth custody to one young fellow for "Ranting and swearing at police".

Magistrates' courts are all over the place on sentencing, however. Nearly two years ago I was violently attacked outside the gate to my house by at least four youths who as part of a much larger group, were demanding to enter my daughter's party, to which they had not been invited. I was hit to the head about 20 times, sustained a cut right by my eye and another on the mouth, and needed 17 stitches, 10 round my eye. In general terms the behaviour of the mob was very similar to that seen over the past week.

The CPS were limp, only charging three with assault, despite the clear intent to wound by hitting me on the eye (intent to wound = GBH).

All got referral orders of eight months as it was their first offence. On completion their records are clean under the terms of a referral order.

While I don't like people swearing at police officers, the mass assault of one person by at least four (more like eight) others resulting in hospital treatment is a few levels higher I think. My faith in the UK justice system isn't any the better for seeing the response of the courts to the rioters.

[coalencanth]

I did read one news report that suggested the harsh sentence was more to do with the fact he tried to gouge one of the coppers eyes out than actual swearing!

[TBM-Legend]

....sorry Australia is now closed for transportation from Old Blighty to Old Sydney Town....

[Tashengurt]

Not so I'm afraid. Breach of peace isn't part of the public order act at all and isn't actually a crime. It covers a huge range of behaviours and is generally the last resort when other laws don't apply.