Cheapest way to own your own plane

[aerofoil1]

Good morning all!
Nice and simple how much would the running costs be to own your own c152? Ie average insurance price running costs maintenance hangerage fees and so on
What's the cheapest 2 seater aircraft to buy
There was a great C152 for sale in pilot magazine £16,000 was the sale price I'm guessing you need to fly it as often as possible to make it viable?
Any thoughts as I'd like to buy my own plane in the future and know nothing about how to do it

[benppl]

Im in the same boat now.

Been doing lots of reading..target plane would be a 150,152 or PA38:ok:

[Dr Jekyll]

You can get a rough idea by looking at the shares advertised for similar aircraft and multiplying the monthly rate by the number of members. Groups do sometimes have to ask their members for cash to cover the unexpected, particularly when the annual inspection comes round.

£16,000 is the bottom of the market even for a C152 so the next annual inspection will almost certainly cost a few thousand.

The other thing to look at is the life left in the engine. If it's done less than 2000 hours budget for an overhaul at 2000 hours. If it's already done more, it may be OK for a while yet, but you don't know. So have enough in your back pocket to replace/overhaul.

If by 'viable' you mean comparable in cost with renting or sharing, yes, only if you do about 5 (some say 10) hours a week would owning be viable. People buy because the convenience of being able to fly when they want and being able to take the aircraft away for days at a time justifies the cost.

[Jan Olieslagers]

For the umpteenth time: if cost is a prime factor (as it would be for most of us) why not consider something Rotax-powered? Not that the Rotax is intrinsically cheaper, but these planes usually fall in categories with much less demanding maintenance requirements. They are also less expensive to operate.

[IO540]

Without wishing to sound unhelpful, asking about the cheapest way to own a plane which is likely to be 30 years old and in most cases roughly treated is a bit of a contradiction :)

You could be lucky of course and get one which has been very well looked after, hangared, etc, but it's unlikely on the UK scene and the Annuals here seem to run at around £5000 plus for a C150/152.

I would totally avoid a PA38. All with be ~ 30 years old, and every one I have seen (I did much of my PPL in them) was trashed, maintained to an absolutely minimal standard, subject to long term water and occassionally massive leaks into the cockpit and fuel tanks (because the owners don't like spending money to fix the seals) and the bill to bring one to a decent standard will be big.

Your best bet is to form a group of several people you get on with well and buy something better than an old heap. Aircraft ownership is a big enough learning curve as it is :)

[shortstripper]

Cheaper still .... Go for a LAA permit aeroplane.

SS

[FleetFlyer]

Rotax or Jabiru powered LAA aeroplane every time! Mine costs peanuts to run and outperforms a c152 whilst burning half the fuel.

CofA aeroplanes (as opposed to LAA Permit to Fly aeroplanes) will always cost you an arm an a leg to run, for no real advantage unless you require flight in IMC or need to use it for aerial work.

My costs are £22/hr avgas £8/hr oil/engine fund/tyres+ brakes/filters/contingency.
Permit renewal is around £100/year. Hull insurance is £1400/year and hangarage is £1200/year. The airframe is plastic so pretty much looks after itself with no fatigue issues or fabric woes.

If it were a Cof A aeroplane I simply wouldn't be able to afford the annuals.

[benppl]

How much can you pick up a LAA aircraft for?

What do you fly?

[IO540]

Cheaper still .... Go for a LAA permit aeroplane.

That's no doubt technically true, but it does not mention that there is a strong correlation between LAA owners, and people who love to tinker with their planes and who probably run old MGBs which they lovingly work on :)

Much of the lower cost of an LAA type comes from both the ability of the average LAA owner to DIY, and from the legal ability to do so to a much bigger extent than on a CofA type.

So before recommending going down that route one needs to establish the appetite the punter has for getting his hands dirty.

In a syndicate, the members needs to be well matched as to attitude to maintenance, the general standard they expect the aircraft to be at, and the ability to dig into their pockets to fund the foregoing on a long term basis. If you want to fully realise the savings from LAA ownership, you need to organise things carefully otherwise one poor b*gger member is going to be on his back looking after the thing while the others just fly it. This happens in many syndicates, but at least those on a CofA plane just offload the maintenance to some local firm.

[A and C]

If you buy a £16000 aircraft you can expect to spend around £20000 to get it into any sort of state to do any reliable work.

I would sell you one of my Cessna 152's but you would have to pay £35,000 for it but you would get an aircraft that you would not have to spend any money on for the next 5-10 years.

Safe flying is never cheap but if you want inexpensive flying the LAA is the way to go.

[benppl]

Can you guarantee that? ;)

[A and C]

Well.................................no but all the major stuff has been done so the chances are the bills will be very low when compared to a £16,000 aircraft.

[benppl]

Looks like I’m going to be hiring/sharing for a long time!

Unless I bought a £35k'r and let a local school use it or something

[IO540]

They will only trash it.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Much of the lower cost of an LAA type comes from both the ability of the average LAA owner to DIY, and from the legal ability to do so to a much bigger extent than on a CofA type.Yes. Which brings us in reach of the recent "rich guy" thread. Driving a car is expensive, too, these days. One can save a fair bit by performing basic maintenance one's self; such as checking tyre pressure, replacing dead bulbs, topping up the windshield spray fluid, topping up the battery, and such more. Even changing the engine oil is not too hard, though it does become difficult to get rid of the residuals in a legal way.

If precious few car owners do their own maintenance, what would you expect from the much more wealthy plane owners? Of course you have the maintenance done for you.

Back to grass roots aviation? Create a culture of inexpensive (not CHEAP!) yet safe flying? Wood-and-rags single-seater, VW-powered? Jodel, anyone?

(in grateful memory of Californian Mr. Bob Hoover)

[IO540]

It's much harder to do routine maintenance on a modern car than on my TB20.

On the TB20, the 50hr service is a doddle, with easy access to everything. I could easily (though illegally if actually on my own) do the whole Annual. It is mostly just inspections and lubing. Some "tricks" are involved e.g. mag timing. And some special tools and fixtures.

My £500 lawn mower is harder to work on than the TB20, which is why I have just spent £300 getting it fixed after it had a prop strike :)

Only truly dedicated tinkerers work on their engine internals though. I used to do that on my Yamaha 2-strokes.

Back to my IR exam revision :) 2 days to go.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Cheapest 2 seaters will be microlights. At around £4-£7k there's loads on the market; if you prefer 3-axis controls, reckon on something like an AX3, AX2000, X'Air or Thruster. Running costs in the order of £35/hr. You can clearly spend a lot more for a more sophisticated aeroplane (or less for something crude and slow but safe).

Cheapest 2 seat "group A" will be LAA (a.k.a PFA) Permit aeroplanes. Good stuff starts around £7k, similar running costs to microlights.

PA38, C152, etc. are old technology, expensive to run, and daft choices (in the UK) for a personal aeroplane. I agree absolutely about going the Rotax route for cheap personal flying.

G

[VictorGolf]

A and C, I think you are in cloud cuckoo land if you think anybody would pay £35K for a 150/152, however good it is. A £15K 150 with decent engine life will get the enquirer started and should have comparable costs to my Airtourer which are:- hangarage £120 per month, insurance (40 hrs/year) £600 per annum, maintenance between £800 and £2000 depending on annual or C of A and fuel £54 per hour at current rates. Much better than hiring as it's always there when I want it and with that comes a certain pride of ownership which you don't get with a club/group aircraft.

[Rod1]

A Rotax machine (and I own one) will have very low operating costs but will probably cost a lot to buy. If you want max value I would look at a Jodel. It will be on a permit so same low operating cost with just a slightly increased fuel burn (mogas). Typical cost is £13k, with shares often available around £2.5k. Expect £600 insurance £1000 maintenance / paperwork and 21lph of Unleaded. Performance similar to a 150.

Rod1

[A and C]

You are quite correct in thinking that it would be unlikely to get £ 35,000 for a Cessna 152 in the current market but if you are running a business you have to maintain your aircraft if you want to maintain a good serviceability rate.

I can tell you that a £ 16,000 C152 will have a high time ( if not on condition) engine, old paint, poor interior, McCaully wheels & brakes, old radios and a string of other things about to go wrong. It won't take you long to add up the cost of fixing 60 % of those items and it will add up to IRO £20,000.

It may be that your expectation of flying is to hire a tatty under maintained aircraft that smells like some sort of pond life resides in them carpets, I think that my customers deserve better. That is why the aircraft that I rent are worth £ 35,000 to me, because that is what it would cost to replace one of them.

[Phororhacos]

I can't tell you about a C150, but I bought a 1961 C172 in Oct 2009, so I am just just completing 2 years ownership. I paid £17k for it, and had to spend about £2500 on initial repairs, (I knew it needed a new cylinder and various other bits and pieces so that was figured into the price). The engine is lowish hours, but more than 12 years since major overhaul so running on condition, (hence I could not lease it to a school even if I wanted to).

Fixed (ish) costs...Hangarage, (expensive S/E England) is £300 pcm (outside parking would be half), Insurance c. 100hrs/year, £995, Planned maintenance (annual and 1 x 50 hr check each year), has been about £8k/year (mainly because, even though "planned," unexpected things turn up at routine checks in old machines). Unplanned maintenance, i.e. things have gone wrong and needed fixing, have cost me another £1700.

Variable costs.....Avgas 36lph wheels up to wheels down. Oil, 1 lt every 7 or 8hours, landing fees, (lots).

If it was a 150, I would imagine that having 2/3 of the cylinders it would probably have cost about 2/3 of the maintenance and used about 2/3 of the fuel.

Total cost per hour, wet, including VAT, but excluding landing fees has been £196 per hour chock to chock.

I am sure that if I had bought a much newer machine I would have had to spend a lot less on maintenance, but if this aircraft needs a new engine, I can scrap the airframe, walk away, and not lose more than the 17K I paid for it.


I wanted a Cof A machine as I have a night and IMC rating and do occasionally use them, particularly as I use the aircraft regularly to get myself to work, and want as much flexibility as possible. If I did not, I would have gone for a permit machine.


Hope that helps.

[AdamFrisch]

I don't know why everyone includes costs yet to happen when they talk about aircraft ownership. The engine overhaul at 2000hrs is only a recommend, you can, if all is good, probably fly that for another 1000hrs. Also, how do you even know you're going to own the airplane when it comes to overhaul? Don't count your chickens until they've hatched.

Nobody would dream of including the re-spray cost on a car or have a fund for an engine overhaul 20 years down the road, or include the service costs, so why do it for an aircraft? Count the fuel, the oil, insurance and the hangarage. The rest are variable costs that you can include after the fact, not budget for.

[jxc]

I understand where you are coming from Adam but a car engine is no where near the same amount of money nor is a service (annual )
I think that unless you can comfortably write a cheque for an engine at any time
maybe it is wise to put aside look at it as a rainy day fund sell the plane before needed then you have extra money for a new toy

[Monocock]

Much of the lower cost of an LAA type comes from both the ability of the average LAA owner to DIY, and from the legal ability to do so to a much bigger extent than on a CofA type.

So before recommending going down that route one needs to establish the appetite the punter has for getting his hands dirty.

A bit one sided IO! There are many maintenance firms out here who will do work on Permit machines for a sensible rate. I know of at least two who charge 40% less to Permit a/c owners than they do for C of A a/c owners when they use the same tools!

There are some wealthy people out there still who are happy to keep paying for their C f A types. If they can afford it, why not!?

[stickandrudderman]

I think that unless you can comfortably write a cheque for an engine at any time

Don't be so sure! Some modern car engines can be just as much as your average LYC.

[jxc]

Maybe so bt at least you have a good chance of picking up one from a breakers yard or ebay

[NorthSouth]

£16,000 is the bottom of the market even for a C152 so the next annual inspection will almost certainly cost a few thousandBelieve me that is nowhere near the bottom end of the market. The cost of annuals is so enormous these days that there are numerous organisations/individuals around at the moment that aren't flying their aircraft enough to meet the fixed maintenance costs and will virtually give their aroplane away just to avoid the bills. You just have to do a bit of research. And I'm not talking about tatty aircraft.

NS

[AN2 Driver]

Adam,

pardon me but I am with IO540 on this one. I've seen too many airplanes sitting in a corner without an engine because the owners could not afford to bring up the money for the overhaul, either because it is unscheduled, that is way before the 2000 hour TBO or because they flew happily up to 2500 hours on condition and then got the shock of their lifetimes when they heard the price of the overhaul once it was no longer avoidable. :eek:

If you have enough on the side to pay for a new engine any time, you are ok to fly without an engine fund, otherwise, I'd strongly recommend it. Way I did it is to get the airplane it's own bank account where all costs are paid in and out of. The about £ for the engine fund go into a separate subsection, so they don't get used for anything else. I have a brand newly overhauled engine in mine now, but I don't want ever to get in the situation where my plane sits on the ground because some £20k bill comes up which I don't have the means to afford.... there are enough "project" airplanes out there on avbuyer and planecheck for that very reason.

[Choxolate]

FleetFlyer wrote::
Permit renewal is around £100/year. Hull insurance is £1400/year and hangarage is £1200/yeaAs the LAA permit renewal is now £190 (£180 last year) and then you hsae to add the inspectors costs (£100 to £200) - you can probablty say Permit renewal £400.

I would also like to get hangarage at £100 a month - probably double that for a reasonable hangar with power, lighting etc.

[Potter1]

Recent professional ground up restoration of a 1946 vintage plane - £19,000. Effectively a new plane. No maintenance costs above routine for a good few years (Hopefully :ok:)

£190 LAA permit
£125 Inspection
Insurance £750 (full flying)
Hangar £100 pm

18ltrs ph in fuel


Private strip in Berkshire

[Rod1]

Just to inject some real numbers.

For an MCR01

Permit renewal £140
Inspectors cost – expenses – say £100 a year.
Personal hangar with power and light £1000 per year (midlands) on 600m strip

I am sure you could pay more if you wanted…

Rod1

[AdamFrisch]

See how expensive flying is? Only millionaires can afford it...:}

[IO540]

The bottom line is that you must be capable of writing a cheque for a new engine, at any time.

Obviously you hope you don't have to, and statistically speaking that normally works out :)

But the value of a plane - whatever it is - hangs 100.000000% on its continued airworthiness, and if you are unable to maintain that, it is worth scrap.

Anybody ignoring this is deluding themselves.

In the piston game, you need to be able to bankroll "suprises" of say 20k-30k. In the turboprop game, the figure is 200k-300k.

[Rod1]

IO that is probably true for C of A kit but many LAA types can have their engines repaired under the LAA system for the cost of the bits and not a lot more.

Rod1

[MichaelJP59]

The bottom line is that you must be capable of writing a cheque for a new engine, at any time.

I don't think most people can afford to work like that. If you needed a new engine you'd obviously have to fund it, but it might be a case of being grounded for a while. After all, plenty of leisure activities are like that, e.g. a crashed racing car or a sick horse requiring massive vet bills.

[IO540]

many LAA types can have their engines repaired under the LAA system for the cost of the bits and not a lot more. I now know whether I want to fly in your plane :)

But, seriously, you merely underline the point I constantly make which is that most of the cost saving of the LAA route derives strongly from an army of people willing to work cheaply or for nothing.

You can do the same on the CofA scene. In theory, I can do my own Annual, get a qualified engineer to inspect and sign off the work (G- or N-reg equally), and buy him a beer by way of payment :)

Knowing the right people makes far more difference than anything else, in aircraft ownership.

I don't think most people can afford to work like that. If you needed a new engine you'd obviously have to fund it, but it might be a case of being grounded for a while. Quite a while..... How long would someone on the UK average male pilot salary need to save up for a new motor?

I think that almost every such case will end up a hangar queen, or be sold at scrap value. And it's not just little planes; most of today's ageing twin piston wreckage is worth only the engine TBOs.

After all, plenty of leisure activities are like that, e.g. a crashed racing car or a sick horse requiring massive vet bills.

I don't know about racing cars but presumably if you blow the engine up, the bits can be salvaged. There are no certification issues. Whereas breaking up a plane whose CofA has, shall we say, lapsed a while ago, is a long drawn out process and is best done, shall we say, between friends, because nobody is going to overtly generate fresh paperwork for the parts, in a manner which makes it worth doing ;)

A horse.... now you take me back to my horse-mad ex wife :) I don't think vet bills are often more than 4 figures and usually there is the husband to cover that. That's why horsey women like to marry successful businessmen :) And can't you insure really valuable horses? I know you can get vet insurance.

[Pilot DAR]

In the piston game, you need to be able to bankroll "suprises" of say 20k-30k.

This is very true. The amount will vary by aircraft and engine type, but I certinly go along with 5k being a minimum for suprises, with 10K not too far behind for something really bad.

Aviation can be done econmoically if you work at it, and keep up with the maintenance. Letting things go, will cost you more later (and could be unsafe in the mean time). Maintaining airplanes themselves does not cost money, it's paying the people who maintain the plane, and build the parts and materials you need. Like any of us, the people employed to keep planes flying would like to make a fair wage - would anyone deny them that?

I people would stop suing each other when planes had problems, or crashed, we'd be paying for a lot less product liabiltiy insurance, and fewer lawyers - then costs would come down!

[benppl]

How much (if you dont mind me asking) was the kit for the above plane (i presume its a home build from what google gives me)

Or did you buy it completed?

[benppl]

How much (if you dont mind me asking) was the kit for the above plane (i presume its a home build from what google gives me)

Or did you buy it completed?

[Justiciar]

This really has been done to death in thread after thread.

The reality must be that if you have to ask the question you probably can't really afford it!

As an outright buy though the cheapest aircraft will be one old enough to be interesting yet viable as a regular mount, but not young enough to be on a C of A. So, things like early Cubs, Aeroncas, Luscombes and Jodels will be cheap to buy - £12,000 say for a Jodel, perhaps £22,000 for a Cub - on a Permit to Fly and some will run on mogas (all will run on 91UL when it arrives). A rotax or Jaburu will probably be a lot more expensive to buy - £60k+ for a Pioneer, Sportcruiser, MCR, Tecnam etc, but may be a little cheaper to run than the older permit stuff, certainly in terms of litres per hour and of course they will knock a Jodel into a cocked hat when it comes to cruise speed (the Sportcruiser is a bit of a poor performer in that department though). At that price however you have to allow for a fair chunk of depreciation - the benefit of an old Cub or Jodel is that there is little depreciation if it is correctly maintained.

The most expensive option is without a doubt a new C of A type followed by an old dog of a C of a type. Let £8k maintenance per year for a C172 be a warning to you. If you really want to fly one of those get into a decent group. In fact, unless you are flying over say 75 hours a year a group makes a huge amount of sense, as even a 1940s vintage C65 engine is going to be costly if it goes wrong and being able to share that cost is hugely reassuring.