uncertified helicopters

[hendoaaron]

hi there everyone!

i currently hold a pplh licnece in uk, and was wondering about buying in a kit helicopter not a rotorway one. does anyone know the rules on the rules ive been on lasors and having problems finding info on it. even building your own helicopter its just to keep flying without getting into share schemes etc ya know many thanks aaron

[Camp Freddie]

See CAP 733 on CAA website for UK

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP733.PDF

So as far as I can see if this type doesn't have a permit to fly you are screwed, you can't even come to a 6 inch hover legally, even inside your own warehouse, I could be wrong though usually am

[Helinut]

Freddie is right,

If you cannot get a PtF, you can't fly it in the UK. In theory, anyone can apply for the permit (for a new type) but you would need mega effort to jump through many CAA hoops and no guarantee at the end.

In general, kit built helicopters are best on the ground being "engineered" IMO.

LASORs only deals with flight crew licensing aspects. You need to look at the airworthiness side of things.

[Old and Horrified]

What's wrong with Rotorway? I watched some bloke build one on TV a while ago and it looked really well engineered and there appears to be good UK support.

[500e]

Would start here IF
Helicopter Videos - Vertical Aviation Technologies (http://www.vertical-aviation.com/helicopter-videos.php#)

O&H

Rotorway helicopter index Home Page (http://www.flywithorv.com/)

[parasite drag]

"What's wrong with Rotorway? I watched some bloke build one on TV a while ago and it looked really well engineered and there appears to be good UK support"
:D:D:D

It'll be a cold day in hell before the powers that be in blighty (I know not about Ireland though) allow any other kit than Rotorway..

Rotorway's latest ship, the A600 Talon should be authorised to fly soon...some know-all-know-nothings don't like the belt drive tail rotor on the Execs and 162fs, the A600 has a shaft driven t/r...see Rotorway UK - Home Page (http://www.Rotorway.co.uk)

Rotorway feature: ‪Rotorway Loop‬‏ - YouTube

[Arnie Madsen]

Quite a few turbine Helicycles flying with good reports. They are assembled under the home-built category , not all that expensive (for a helicopter) , the biggest drawback for the average person is often the training costs. If you have your rating you are well on your way.

I believe there are some flying in the UK.

Google "Helicycle Hatchery" for a detailed build from first component delivery to first flight . Lots of pictures and details.

[parasite drag]

"I believe there are some flying in the UK"

Nope

[Pandalet]

Aww, from the title of that video, I thought I was going to see someone doing a loop in a rotorway. I was about to be impressed (assuming they survived)!

[315B]

There was a good series on the Discovery channel a while back 'A Chopper is Born', it featured Mark Evans putting everything together from start to finish. Was very well done and the machine turned out fantastic.... for a Rotorway;)
pVfTqNp3WzY

[Arnie Madsen]

"I believe there are some flying in the UK"

Nope It turns out the one I was thinking about is in S. Africa., not UK. thanks.

[parasite drag]

Hi Arnie

It's not that I have anything against the Helicyle or the Safari or the Hummingbird 260L etc. etc. it's just that to get any other type of kit heli through the approval system over here would require someone with VERY deep pockets plus the patience and dedication of at least 10 saints !!

So for us Brits wanting kits it's Rotorway or nowt !

[goldeneaglepilot]

The Rotorway does look like a nicely engineered bit of kit. However it does not seem to suffer fools gladly.

‪rotorway crash‬‏ - YouTube

[The Nr Fairy]

goldeneaglepilot:

Then it has a lot in common with every flying machine.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Totally agree. I must admit I'm tempted by the Rotorway

[Arnie Madsen]

Mosquito XE ..... 20 foot hovering autos, 180* full down autos with no slide, good safety record after several years. Build it in your garage.

‪20 ft Hovering Autorotations in the Mosquito XE Helicopter‬‏ - YouTube

[Arnie Madsen]

More certified-fun ..... in un-certified helicopters. :)If only you could get the UK regulators to watch these videos :)

Homers Bell's fly-in (Ohio) around 2010. The combined fleet of Helicycles has over 6000 hrs with good results.

‪Helicycles at Homers 2010‬‏ - YouTube

[krypton_john]

Arnie, that thing constantly sounds like it is going to blow up!

[swsw]

The helicycle...

I'm sure it could pass CAA permit requirements for the airframe (costly to prove and test though)

But the Turbine wouldn't pass...no containment ring.

Damn shame.

[Neil GH]

What happened to the Safari kit that was being built in the UK, did it ever get CAA approval?

[RPM AWARE]

not a chance...........

[bolkow]

I have heard that there are many home built kits that remain unbuilt because fo the committment and hours that are required and tooling needed to complete them. Those that do get them up and running seem to frequently achive this at the expense of relationship(s) marriages etc?

[kennethr]

Our industry has enough problems and bad press even when operated by the biggest operators in the world, supervised by the worlds biggest oil companies and all their quality systems and processes , home build cars are dangerous, home build fixed wing are more dangerous and home build heli's are seriously dangerous!!

People should not be allowed to build flying machines in their back garden and then fly over schools , playgrounds and suburban areas, it is too dangerous, the stats and the history speak for themselves

KM

[swsw]

I don't think people are allowed to fly over built up areas as you describe, at least not unlesss they are high enough to avoid them should there be a problem.

Personally I don't think governments should be allowed to prevent anyone from flying a homebuilt, like the helicycle, which in the UK at least is effectively barred by the system of approvals required(almost a certification) for issuing a permit to fly.

The Rotorway was first approved due to 'accumulated sufficient experience of safe operation, and has been shown not to possess unacceptably hazardous features.'

The CAA should allow us to go back to that standard for issuing Permits.

Or, if a kit is approved in one European Country, it should also be approved in all others.

Just my thoughts...

[swsw]

ps.

I don't think the R22 would pass a certication to the latest standards either.

Just not enough inertia in the rotor, 1 second isn't long enough to drop the lever.

[RPM AWARE]

"home build heli's are seriously dangerous"....

When you've got a minute kennethr can you post a link to the stats and history showing these garden built deathtraps crashing onto those schools, playgrounds and suburban areas.

Cheers

[wallism]

They don't drop out of the sky, sometimes people roll them over though, then they get out and rebuild them. If I'm not mistaken that's Ian King with Mr. Evans in the video. I had the pleasure of cuddling upto him in a 162F and when he closed the throttle and counted to 5 (he said he could sometimes get to 7) I would already have been dead in the R22. For the detractors, what about all the hot air balloons, microlights and ancient certified junk flying above schools, orphanages and even more importantly, real ale pubs?

[hillberg]

I'm glad to be in the U.S.A. to build & fly Experimental Air craft:ok:, Anyone who doesn't like it can stuff it:ugh:, In all the years working with both types of Type Certificate Production & Home builts. I would trust a new Home built over a TCed machine,why? The home built has a caring owner and the T.C. machine is built by the lowest bidder often with only a GED.:eek:Seen a few new R-22s chuck blades,The AW 139 tear it self apart, the S-61 chuck parts,Astars become falling stars-Sikorsky 92s splatting ,heck Look at all the Airworthyness Directives,:{ You little girls with the panties in a Bunch crying "Don't build & fly it you'll kill your self!" Give me a Break.:=
It all comes down to the builder/pilot and the workman ship is ofter better than a production piece, How many kit helicopters cruise @160 mph?
See Rotormouse.mov youtube.:D

[Aerobot]

For God's sake, hillberg, learn about capitalization, punctuation, spacing, and spelling, if you're going to insult people. You're embarrassing the rest of us Americans.

Get that right and people can understand your post well enough to point out all the logical fallacies it contains.

I think they're looking for you over at JustHelicopters.

[hillberg]

Thank you. Hope to make the spelling police's Top Ten Most wanted!

[Aerobot]

That's it - take pride in your ignorance! Let your stupid soar!

Uh, guys? We're not all like this guy.

[wallism]

Don't you love internet forums? From a reasonable question about flying helicopters to Zero Tolerance on spelling and punctuation in a few days.
No comments until everyone has read Eats shoots and leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation: Amazon.co.uk: Lynne Truss: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-shoots-leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1861976127)

[outofwhack]

The UK CAA is way more restrictive in homebuilding than other countries.
Rather than allow self regulation by a non-government organization, like PFA/LAA for fixed-wing, the CAA want to severely restrict helicopter homebuilding by managing it themselves.
I am so glad I left the UK as it's allowed my interest in aviation to flourish but I fear the day I return as I would probably have to sell up my airplanes and helicopter rather than subject myself to the British regs.

Correct me if i am wrong I hear that although you may put together an approved kit (only Rotorway) you can't work on it yourself after completion - only a certified helicopter mechanic can do that! - what an insult!

Even though you may have a PPL(H) you won't get to perform it's first flight - that's a job for a CAA approved test pilot- insult number 2.

Further, regulations require it require it to be flight testing each year by a CAA approved test pilot - why? insult number 3.

All these third parties are going charge large fees for their signature and for the insurance policies that cover them.

I can't help but think that in the UK it would be cheaper to buy a certified helicopter than to tackle this absurdly restrictive system but who wants to own an inferior, outdated production helicopter when they could say take two thirds of a standard rotorway kit, add 3inch headroom, add one jet turbine and one LCD multifunction flight computer and have a self made private helicopter more advanced than a EC120 for less than 70,000 quid. My friend has built exactly this and it's a dream to behold - and he has the right, as builder, to perform yearly maintenance. He can sell it but only then must the owner seek a certified mechanic. Very logical.

I hear the UK rotorway dealer performs a yearly 200 point check! My god how much is that going to cost or take? I don't think my engineer checks more than 20 things on my helicopter yearly and that costs 1000 quid = 1 to 1.5 man days. what's going on there?

Sounds like aviation in the UK is really repressed. How can you guys tolerate this? Do they slap the same restriction on gyroplane homebuilders? If not - why should homebuilt helicopters be treat any differently?

Natural selection is alive and kicking but not in the UK it seems.


OOW

[hillberg]

Read the content & not how it's packaged.:= When YOU build a helicopter from vapor & bits "n" pieces. Good for you,:D(Or design the Jet Exec) Now get it to cruise at 160 MPH. Thats another subject.:eek:

[outofwhack]

Hillberg - you've totally lost me! I can't make any sence from your post.

Aerobot - please add grammar and meaning to the list your keeping on hillberg. Ta.

OOW

[TRC]

I don't think my engineer checks more than 20 things on my helicopter yearly and that costs 1000 quid....

I sincerely hope he checks a good deal more than 20 things in a year. If he doesn't, take it somewhere that does.

[9Aplus]

JpFJquxRdFk

It seems to me that this kind of pilot knows bit more than average certified fellow :}

[500e]

Thats Stan Fosters Turbinator Helicycle the build quality is SUPERB.
He also builds Staircases which are dreams come true.
Anyone who can do wood & metal gets my vote :ok:

[swsw]

OOW,

You're about right with the UK CAA.

But I think the builder can perform maintenance, just needs to be checked and signed of by a CAA approved engineer.

Not many about willing to do that unfortunately, so most go back to the main dealer for maintenance.

And yes, need a yearly sign-off. And mandatory insurance to fly.

FYI, the Main Dealer has been attempting since 2008 to get approval for the Talon changes. I think it's almost complete, but 3 1/2 years ???

At least this'll mean almost of the Rotorway's engineering will have been checked to CAA standards, except perhaps the engine and blades.

So fair to say 70% certified ? :-)

sw

[outofwhack]

Mandatory insurance? I hope that's just third party.
How much do you typically have to pay?

My certified helicopter's third party is about aud1300 and the charter component brings it up to about aud1800 for about aud5million coverage. Charter coverage is mandatory for covering paying passengers when flying under an AOC.

Is there a helicopter homebuilder organization within the uk?
I don't think the PFA/LAA have any delegated authority for rotary wing or do they?

Who do the gyro guys have regulating them?

OOW

[swsw]

Yes, just third party is mandatory, around £1,000 a year.

The CAA have reserved to themselves the issuing of permits for kit helicopters, I believe the PFA can issue permits for gyro's but could be wrong on that.

As illustrated with the Talon improvements, any mods have to go through CAA approval, so over time, in the UK at least, the Rotorway is becoming certified.

There was a fatal accident way back on G-ROTO during a permit renewal with an extremely experience pilot, I think the CAA have effectively 'Banned' new kit built heli types since and I feel they would do the same with the Rotorway if they could get away with it, which they probably couldn't, at least as long as accident rates don't rise.

[hillberg]

:= No flying = No Accidents.:ugh: Glad I don't have to deal with the UK CAA:*