Acceptable flying pattern?

[dochealth]

Hi,

I wonder can anyone tell me what rules and regs apply to GA flying, please?

Earlier this evening, I saw a single engined a/c ( ? Piper Cub) flying low in mountainous terrain in West of Ireland. He was in and out of valleys at 200 ft or so.

But then pilot throttled back and descended in a deliberate swoop till he was about 50 ft above our village before abruptly climbing again.

So just curious, would this be considered acceptable flying by (a) GA community and (b) by regulatory authorities?

Thanks!

DH

[AdamFrisch]

No, that's illegal unless he was about to land, or attempt to land, or had an emergency. He is allowed to fly low over unpopulated areas and terrain, but not over built up areas.

[dublinpilot]

Not allowed below 500ft AGL at any stage in Ireland unless landing.

[Contacttower]

He was in and out of valleys at 200 ft or so.

Without an accurate way of measuring the height of an aircraft above the ground the 500 AGL rule is rather hard to measure though. If it really was 200ft and came over a village at 50ft then obviously this pilot is flying dangerously.

I find 50ft somewhat hard to believe though...

[Cows getting bigger]

Not allowed below 500ft AGL at any stage in Ireland unless landing.

..... and the taking-off bit? :confused:

[L'aviateur]

If it had been 50ft, you'd have seen the pilots eyes an been cowering for cover.
It's very difficult for the untrained eye to determine height, including for instance cloud cover etc.
It's likely this pilot was at 500ft agl.

[dochealth]

I accept its very difficult to assess height accurately...

However he made 3 passes over my house and i was using tree height for reference. In addition he was below tree- level when he dropped down over village. So definitely well below 500 ft...

[jxk]

crop dusting the spuds?

[Johnm]

If he was that low you could read the registration and look it up on the web!

[Whopity]

In addition he was below tree- level when he dropped down over villageUnless you are at treetop height, how can you possibly tell this?
Did he have a shotgun? He may have been hunting! As already stated at the height you claim, his registration would have been clearly readable.

[dochealth]

It was readable... and no I'm not putting reg no on PPRuNe...!

DH

[jxc]

I am sure you can read his number at 500ft
like said before unless you are at that tree height how can you tell accurately

[FREDAcheck]

It's very difficult for the untrained eye to determine height, including for instance cloud cover etc.
And the trained eye, too. Without measuring instruments it really is very difficult to estimate the height of an aircraft. On more than one occasion I've flown over my house and had people on the ground assure me that I was 50 feet above them. Really, they knew for sure, just about tree-top height.

And I knew for sure I was 1000 feet above them. I was reading from a reliable altimeter with correct pressure setting.

I'm not saying the OP is wrong (how could I? I wasn't there). However, planes above one in the sky frequently seem lower than they are.

[ShyTorque]

Was the aircraft over the village, rather than close to it?

In UK the "500 foot rule" is not actually referenced to height, but rather to "separation distance" (although things may be differently worded in the Irish regs; I dont know).

So an aircraft could be flown very close to ground level provided the horizontal separation is 500 feet or more.

If he was actually over the village (congested area?) the 1,000 foot rule may apply in any case.

[thing]

Slight thread drift but when I used to glide at Cosford I remember a local farmer complaining about 'them low flying gliders making a racket and disturbing my livestock'.

[dublinpilot]

In UK the "500 foot rule" is not actually referenced to height, but rather to "separation distance" (although things may be differently worded in the Irish regs; I dont know).



It's different in Irish regs (and most other countries outside the UK). In Ireland there is a minimum altitude of 500ft at all times, even if there is nobody, vehichle or structure there.

[ShyTorque]

Minimum Altitude....

So if the village is 500 ft amsl?

[Contacttower]

However he made 3 passes over my house and i was using tree height for reference. In addition he was below tree- level when he dropped down over village. So definitely well below 500 ft...

How close to the tree were you standing?

To give you an example I live under the flight path to Southampton airport about 4NM out so when the planes pass over my house they are at about 1400ft, maybe a bit lower since my house is probably above the airport elevation.

There are a number of surrounding trees, several in the garden and some more in the surrounding fields, if I stand directly under the tallest tree and look up at a plane directly above then it is obviously higher than the tree that is about 40ft I would estimate. However about 200 metres towards the direction of the runway there are some more trees that are a similar height, if I stay in the same place and watch the plane descend away from me the plane very quickly gives the appearance of descending below the trees 200 metres away. Does it actually mean the aircraft is now lower than 40ft?

Of course not the aircraft is still almost 1000ft off the ground at the point were it looks to me like it has just descended below the trees.

My point is that unless you were standing very close to the tree and the aircraft was also no more than a few hundred metres away comparing to a fixed object is not a reliable way of discerning height above the ground.

[dublinpilot]

Minimum Altitude....

So if the village is 500 ft amsl?

Well then the minimum height rule comes in which is also 500ft :O

[Mimpe]

illegal low level flight causes a lot of accidents...especially here in australia on hot days.

Here you must be 500 ft agl and 1000 ft agl over built up areas, with a 600 m lateral boundary applied to built up areas for the purposes of the built up areas requirement.

The exception is t/o and landing, and low level commercial work such as spraying, and airshows...the latter is by permit only.Emergency would be the only other exception, but not emergency training. There may be an exception for rotor training but i dont know.

The big killer is high power lines.

[dochealth]

How close to the tree were you standing?

Thanks Contactower

I was standing next to trees beside my house, so pretty sure about the height estimate at this point.

But I accept your point about estimating height over village; its about a third of a mile away... having said that if a/c was in level flight over house and it throttled back and lost height over village does that not suggest a lower altitude over village?

DH

[FREDAcheck]

If you're sure it really was that low, and you say you got the registration, if it's UK registred (G-Registration) then look it up in G-INFO (Google for it) and you'll get the owner's address.

I'd recommend a friendly approach (unless he or she keeps on doing it), noting all the comments about how hard it is to estimate height of an aircraft.

[sunday driver]

Well I've tried estimating heights, and I just can't do it.
So how about this?

Spot the suspect aircraft
Hold out your arm (length .62m in my case) = R1
Measure the span of the aircraft against your index finger = S1
Identify the aircraft (e.g. PA28, span=9.8m) =S2
500 ft rule distance (152.4m) = R2

Then S1/R1=S2/R2
=> S1=R1xS2/R2
As S1=500 feet (152.4m), then S1=4cm, as near as dammit
So if the span at arm's length is more than 4cms, then the PA28 is closer than 500 feet.
All I need to do now is calibrate my arm and finger against a PA28 at circuit height.

SD