How do you fly at night without IR

[stewmath]

I know this may sound like a daft question as though i dont have my ppl, but i have always wondered how someone with ppl + night rating can fly at night with an ordinary aircraft like a cessna 152 etc. I can see how they can do it with IR equipment etc, but cant workout in my head how you would fly and navigate in the dark with only ordinary instruments.

[patowalker]

The Mark I Eyeball is not an ordinary instrument :)

[stewmath]

I know my question my sound daft, im not qualified and it was just bugging me so had to ask.

Got any information on that Mark I Eyeball i can read about? Sounds interesting!

[mcgoo]

Mk1 eyeball - Goatopedia - The Royal Air Force Wiki (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/wiki//index.php?title=Mk1_eyeball)

There you go!

[stewmath]

haha ahh right, i get it. I thought he was referring to a dial in the aircraft. lol.

But if your flying at night, looking out the window in an area you are not familiar with wont give you a position, from up there wont it just all look like street lights?

and what if you aint got a gps? :P

['India-Mike]

The yellow-coloured splodges on a half-mil chart match in shape the yellow-coloured splodges seen all around at night. Aided and abetted by TV masts and other red-lit objects.

Works a treat

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But if your flying at night, looking out the window in an area you are not familiar with wont give you a position, from up there wont it just all look like street lights?
Looking at a maze of twisty little villages all alike doesn't tell you where you are in daylight either, at low level over East Anglia or Lincolnshire, you sometimes have to try a little harder than "just looking out the window".

There are several other ways you know where you are.

(1) You know where you were, you know which direction you've been flying in, you know how long you've been flying, you know the forecast wind, so you can estimate where you are. This works just as well at night as during the day.

(2) You can use ground-based radio navigation aids, such as VOR, NDB, DME.

(3) You can use a ground-based radio navigation aid known as an air traffic controller looking at a radar screen (if you're lucky enough to find one willing to talk to you).

(4) You can call up a local airport on the radio and get a radio direction finding bearing from them; two of these and you're pinpointed.

(5) You can call up on the emergency frequency and get told where you are via several RDF bearings.

Some of these work better than others at various times in various conditions. Nobody sensible relies totally on just one, not even GPS, not even during the day.

And just looking out of the window does sometimes work:

I did one of my IMCR lessons at night. Eventually I said I'd had enough and took the goggles off. "We're at such-and-such," I told the instructor, within a second or so of looking out of the window and recognising the layout of street lights. I navigated home by looking out of the window and recognising where I was.

[IO540]

Now that we are done with the standard "retired RAF navigator" replies :) here is mine:

cant workout in my head how you would fly and navigate in the dark with only ordinary instruments. The short answer is that you cannot, because a properly dark night is obviously pitch black and is thus the same as solid IMC. And if you fly into solid IMC on such a night, you won't be aware of it, except by seeing the halo around your wingtip lights.

The reason why you can do a plain PPL, add the night qualification, and legally fly around at night, without instrument navigation and aircraft control capability, is because 99% of such pilots do their damnest to log "night time" starting with 30 minutes and 0.1 second after official sunset and then they fly a few circuits, or a short flight among heavily lit ground features :) It's nowhere near dark then. If these people went off in the middle of Africa, or whatever, on a moonless night, they would end up doing a Kennedy.

In the FAA system, to carry passengers at night you need to do the 3+3 after sunset + 1hr, which is a lot darker than sunset + 30mins which is the European system.

Night VFR, or whatever you call it, is an artefact of the ICAO system and goes back some decades. Nobody in their right mind would today propose a privilege for unrestricted night flight without some instrument capability (not necessarily a full IR which involves a huge amount of procedural flying, not to mention a vast amount of theoretical ground school garbage, which is not related to operating visually between airports with lighting and in VMC conditions).

"We're at such-and-such," I told the instructor, within a second or so of looking out of the window and recognising the layout of street lights. I navigated home by looking out of the window and recognising where I was. That's because you recognised your local area :)

Makes it kind of easier :) :) :) :)

If going to places for real, there is no recognition, other than hoping to match some illuminated shapes against the city outlines on the map and hope they correspond to the illuminated shapes.

In practice one navigates everywhere with a GPS, so nav is easy nowadays. But you still need instrument flight ability to fly on real dark nights.

[Pilot DAR]

I don't see how an instrument rating and night flying are related, unless at night, you're flying out of visual reference to the ground, which is extremely similar to flying out of visual reference to the ground - but it's darker.

The skills required to get an IR can be handy if you're VFRing your way along at night, and you blunder into a cloud you did not see, that's fairly easy to do. Other than that, navigation is navigation. seeing the ground is just a bonus (and requirement for VFR flying). I can assure you that a lot of night flying happens in places where yellow splodges are few and far between. Back to the chart, stopwatch, and radio nav aids you might have.

Some VFR flying at night, no matter how good the visibility, is just really challenging. Not so much as figuring out where you are going, but simply figuring out which way is up. JFK jr's accident is an excellent case study in this.

That's part of the judgement in knowing if you, and your aircraft, are correctly equipped, and functioning well enough to carry out the intended flight safely, conditions considered. Night is one of many factors which would affect such a decision.

[PompeyPaul]

I've always wondered about this. I have a NR but no IMC. I was always told never to fly at night purposely, it's only ever for emergency.

The strange thing is, if you aren't current then flying at night would be pretty dangerous. So a NR for emergency seems fairly dangerous to me.

I've thought about going out at night a few times, to get more experience using GPS for navigation.

I think the above post is interesting because there is no TAF for how dark it's going to be that night. Presumably you look for broken clouds and bright moon ? CAVOK becomes even more important at night ?

Do any PPL (non IR/IMC) pilots regularly fly at night ?

[Pace]

I tend to go with 10540s thoughts on this. There is night and there is night!
There is a world of difference flying around the circuit 30 minutes after sunset on a clear full moon " night " and flying a long cross country over mountains with few lights below, pitch black and clouds of differing variety and coverage coming onto you with little warning.

Real night flying is a nonsense without instrument proficiency and instrument navigation skills.

I also think it is a nonsense to offer the qualification to VFR only pilots.

It should have been part of or an addition to the IMCR.

Pace

[mur007]

Night flying is similar to day flying in that there are various stages of difficulty. Better, more experienced, pilots can manage flying in cloud at night or over somewhere remote on a moonless night ... I am not one of them! I'll only go up at night if I know there are little, if any, clouds at the altitude I'll be at. And as I fly around the southeast of England I know there will be sufficient street lighting to keep me upright.

What is fun about night flying is that you need to re-learn your reference points. Radio masts become a lot more relevant and the notam that such and such a mast is out of service that you might not really take much notice of during the day becomes of interest when flying at night. Similarly other ground features that you might use a lot flying day VFR (for instance Bewl water) can become completely invisible and therefore of no use to you at night.

Spotting other aircraft at night is much easier than during the day and they can look a lot closer than they actually are. And you need to make sure you know how to use the cockpit lighting and have a good torch strapped to your head as often the instrument lighting in a typical spamcan leaves a lot to be desired.

[Whopity]

but cant workout in my head how you would fly and navigate in the darkGo night flying with someone on a cross country and see for yourself. I can recall one night seeing London, Birmingham, Edinburgh and Amsterdam all at the same time from 35,000 feet over Litchfield.

[IO540]

I don't fly much at night because you have no escape route for an engine failure.

In other phases of flight you have an escape route e.g. ditching -> life raft, etc. Flying over forests isn't much better but there are few totally continuous ones in Europe. Mountains tend to have lots of valleys.

Flying at night, you have nowt. Well, you could quickly put on your $5000 3rd-gen NVGs which you illegally imported from the USA ;)

[Pace]

Whopity

Go night flying with someone on a cross country and see for yourself. I can recall one night seeing London, Birmingham, Edinburgh and Amsterdam all at the same time from 35,000 feet over Litchfield.

I hope you were not in a 152 at the time :E

I too can remember flying up the edge of Paris at 36K Spectacular sight then flying another 50 miles and a totally different picture!
For the IFR pilot it makes little difference, the spectacular sights of Paris or London are a bonus but for the VFR pilot the spectacular sights can quickly change to a nightmare!

Pace

[stewmath]

Go night flying with someone on a cross country and see for yourself. I can recall one night seeing London, Birmingham, Edinburgh and Amsterdam all at the same time from 35,000 feet over Litchfield.Id love to fly over Lichfield at night, i live in lichfield so make it more exciting

[Big Pistons Forever]

An American flight safety organization did a study on night flying accidents. Their sobering conclusion is that a non instrument rated PPL flying a single engine aircraft is up to 25 times more likely to have a fatal accident on a cross country flight as compared to the same trip flown in daylight. Inadvertent flight into IMC and the resultant loss of control figures much more prominently in night flight accidents. My personal opinion is that a IMC or IR rating should be a prerequisite for night flying. In any case flying at night without recognizing and ameliorating the extra risks is IMO very foolish.....yet also very common.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A thought or three from somebody who had a night qualification for about a decade before having an instrument qualification, and used it occasionally although not very often.

- In terms of engine failure options, there's not a lot of difference between the dangers of IMC or night flying with a single engine; if the engine coughs one gives you a poor view of the ground, the other will eventually give you a hopefully good view, but possibly too late to do much with it. Doing either is a calculated risk.

- Night VFR navigation is not difficult, landmarks are different but easily seen, reduced turbulence makes flying accurately easily, radio nav is learned by all of us to some extent whether using GPS or older technologies, and is very useful but not utterly vital.

- If you lose a horizon at night, you do want to be able to use the AI to accurately hold a course. This skill is in the PPL, rather more in the night rating.

- The main part of the IMC and IR courses is flying holds and approaches. This is not required for night VFR.

G

[MarkR1981]

Like the MK1 eyeball comment :E

As a low hour pilot with a night rating, i would say as much as I like night flying I would definately not be considering a solo cross country in the pitch black, at least definately not in the highlands of scotland.

I would however be happy arriving back at Inverness at dusk before it is pitch black in good VMC where there is no or very little chance of going inadvertantly IMC.

Combined with a current instrument qual and a suitable aircraft for the conditions I expect to fly in then I would possibly consider it. But as I dont have these yet, Its the circuit and immediate local area for me for night flying :)

[Kengineer-130]

It all comes down to sensibilitys again. The PPL has a large amount of trust built into it, no one is going to stop you flying below your calculated MSA, no one is going to stop you flying when the Viz limits are below what you are legally allowed to fly in. It comes down to the fact that if you are operating outide of what you have qualified for, you A) stand a good chance of hurting yourself, and B) getting busted for it.

I personally did my night rating along with my PPL in the USA, it is much better catered for over there with pilot controlled lighting at most airports etc. The other distinct advantage is that Florida is hard to get lost in, and the weather is normally pretty clear. I accrued approximatly 20 Hrs of night flying, and found it great fun, and a nicely challenging difference to day VFR. Would I be as comfortable flying night solo in this country? Doubtful, much more terrain & weather to fly into, and airports that make it very difficult to do night flying in the first place.

Night VFR is just as safe as day VFR if planned correctly and flown sensibly in my humble opinion :ok:

[patowalker]

The other distinct advantage is that Florida is hard to get lost in, and the weather is normally pretty clear.

I did the night flying for my FAA PPL out of EGHH Bournemouth. No prizes for guessing where I went on the 100nm cross-country flight, but it was a lot easier than others I have had to do inland by day.

[Pace]

- In terms of engine failure options, there's not a lot of difference between the dangers of IMC or night flying with a single engine; if the engine coughs one gives you a poor view of the ground, the other will eventually give you a hopefully good view, but possibly too late to do much with it. Doing either is a calculated risk.

Ghengis

Yes if the clouds run to the ground! Any pilot who flies a single over fog banks or very low cloud is taking a large risk.
The Single engine pilot who flies IMC with a minimum of 500 to 1000 feet AGL at least will have enough time to turn into a field and make a visual landing.
The single night or single day over V low cloud or fog is throwing the dice.
We all know the joke about engine failure at night! Set up a glide, aim for a dark area, turn on the landing lights! If you like what you see land if you dont turn them off again :E
But thats not the point. We are talking about pilots with minimal instrument or instrument nav abilities being allowed by the authorities to head off into what is effectively instrument conditions.
I dont understand the mindset of the CAA at times often guided by tradition not sense.
The form should be PPL IMCR (with built in night) or PPL IMCR Night and not PPL VFR Night!

Pace

[stewmath]

I can safely say that i would rather not fly at night if i only had VFR when i got my PPL, i dont trust english weather.

[BillieBob]

Night VFR, or whatever you call it, is an artefact of the ICAO system and goes back some decades. Nobody in their right mind would today propose a privilege for unrestricted night flight without some instrument capability (not necessarily a full IR which involves a huge amount of procedural flying, not to mention a vast amount of theoretical ground school garbage, which is not related to operating visually between airports with lighting and in VMC conditions).The draft Standardised European Rules of the Air include provision for VFR at night, which is just as well since Part-FCL makes an IR (not an IMC Rating) mandatory for flight under IFR in an EASA aircraft. Unless the UK permits VFR at night before 8 April 2012, the night skies will be rather quiet.

[Pace]

Billie

That is another matter! There will be a lot of things we can no longer do under EASA.

Hopefully the French will progress their achievable IR, The UK will have the guts to say "OK you abolish our IMCR and we will adopt the French IR which I am surprised the CAA have not already done.

Then and only then we may get some movement from EASA (Elimate Aviators Strangle Aviation)

Pace

[Mark1234]

In a similar position to Ghengis, I'd characterise night flight, and night navigation rather seperately.

Night navigation by looking out the window is perfectly feasible, but which features are relevant changes a lot, as does the rigour required to do it properly. For example roads are (mostly) great, railway lines are mostly not. Hills and terrain are both more relevant (MSA), and less helpful (can't see them), lakes can be handy on a moonlit night, and so on. VOR's and NDB's can make life a lot easier too.

However, night flight without the ability to fly the aeroplane on instruments is (in my opinion) pushing the limits more than a bit. I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure the required equipment for night flight in aus (where I did my night rating and all my night flying) included a horizon. The training was also pretty comprehensive - it mandated a 2+hr nav into a 'remote' area (i.e. lack of lighting), significant amount of instrument flying, and a minimum of 10hrs night experience to get the rating. There were a few other bits like demonstrating competence to navigate by VOR/NDB, partial panel and such.

There is however, a lot more to an IR than being able to fly on instruments, much of which isn't relevant to night VFR.

[IO540]

Night navigation by looking out the window is perfectly feasible

Over Sussex, yes.

[FlyingStone]

Night flying is much more complex than pure day VFR. It is almost impossible to fly the aircraft without instruments, since many times you don't have the luxury of natural horizon upon which you can set the desired aircraft attitude. It is also impossible to predict whether you will be in IMC or VMC in the next 10 seconds if there is no moonlight: I've been in inadvertent IMC in the valley during night VFR and it wasn't nice, especially since I've had no real instrument training at the time. In order to be safe during night flying, you don't have to be just current in instrument flying, but you have to know where all the relevant switches are in the aircraft, so you can access them without using the torch - this is especially important in emergency, if you for example have an alternator failure: I'd rather use remaining power in battery for COM/NAV station and exterior lights than panel lighting.

I agree that you don't need an IR to fly at night, since it would be a massive overkill for somebody who needs a night qualification just to get back home, if something delays him for an hour or so (not saying this is entirely safe/smart thing to do, since night/IFR flying requires much more careful preflight planning and briefing than day VFR below clouds). Surely you don't need to know how to do an NDB hold with 30 kt crosswinds or how to fly a night NDB approach from the sea to an ins-shore airfield with partial panel (e.g. no ADI, DG/HSI) in marginal weather (ceiling just above MDA or even below and some 10+ kts crosswind). That being said, in order to conduct a safe night VFR flight, you should be capable of flying the aircraft according to instruments, including basic NDB and VOR/DME navigation, some partial panel flying (especially some turns in level flight and during climb in descend, which could come handy in inadvertent IMC, which is much more likely during night than day) and a few precision and non-precision approaches, but far from IR standards (e.g. DH 200ft for a full ILS approach), but more like (M)DH of 700-1000ft, so you are able to find the airfield and position yourself approximately on the final approach, from which you will then be able to continue fully visual towards the runway. I'm sure IO540 will come banging at this that even a basic PPL should be able to fly the ILS approach, but I think night training should (in addition to current syllabus) include excercises, different to each pilot. For example, if one always flies from a home airfield and comes home the same day, but would like to stay at the destination a bit longer, perhaps to see some more things in a town and he doesn't want to worry if he comes in before SS+30 or later, it would be a no-brainer to teach him how to fly full ILS approach, if his home airfield is only equipped with a VOR/DME and there is a published instrument VOR/DME approach. It would be much better to teach him how to fly that particular approach (preferrably on different occasions, in different weather/moonlight conditions) and perhaps an approach at the first and second most close airfield. And if somebody really wants to do some serious traveling/touring, he will sooner or later require the full IR anyway.

As far as night navigation using "the only correct method" (heading and time = DR) goes, it's virtually impossible, unless you know the area really well, but I wouldn't go blindly flying at night without radio navigation/GPS equipment, even if I've been to the place during day.

[BillieBob]

As far as night navigation using "the only correct method" (heading and time = DR) goes, it's virtually impossible, unless you know the area really wellI would respectfully contest that statement. Provided that the exercise is carefully planned and the principles are correctly employed, there is no problem with navigating by visual reference over most of England. Agreed, there are areas of Scotland and Wales that present more of a challenge but then I wouldn't want to fly a single over that sort of terrain at night without a parachute in any case. I spent a good few years teaching night navigation (and sending students solo) in the Chipmunk with no navaids and no problems.

Controlling the aircraft without reference to instruments is quite another matter and it is clearly foolish to venture outside the circuit area at night without the ability to fly by sole reference to instruments. As has been pointed out, you don't know you're IMC until you see the ghostly glow of the nav lights.

[Mimpe]

im a NVFR ppl and i enjoy the privilege and excercise it very carefully.

Navigation isnt that hard at night in Australia....theres a lot of not much between most towns, and planty of features even at night. Non TSO Gps isnt legal as sole means of navigation, and the VOR and NDB is mandatory and very helpful. I always carry a gps any way, but the lighting has to be very low.

The rules in Australia are strict. You learn them and follow them without exception.

In particular, look for smooth air, close to pefect weather or at least a few thousand feet space between LSALT and the ceiling, and a formal flight plan is filed.

The flying has to be really accurate, with awareness of the risks of spatial disorientation and the requirements of efficient instrument scanning.

Also try to stay current. Check the aircraft very carefully in daylight. Carry plenty of fuel. Good moonlight is a great help. Be strict about maintaining Best roc on climbout to avoid pitch down illusion and eyes inside for the first 500 ft after T/O.

My favourite night flight is over Sydney Harbour.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I would respectfully contest that statement. Provided that the exercise is carefully planned and the principles are correctly employed, there is no problem with navigating by visual reference over most of England. Agreed, there are areas of Scotland and Wales that present more of a challenge but then I wouldn't want to fly a single over that sort of terrain at night without a parachute in any case. I spent a good few years teaching night navigation (and sending students solo) in the Chipmunk with no navaids and no problems.

Controlling the aircraft without reference to instruments is quite another matter and it is clearly foolish to venture outside the circuit area at night without the ability to fly by sole reference to instruments. As has been pointed out, you don't know you're IMC until you see the ghostly glow of the nav lights.

I agree entirely with this - and I have done significant VFR night nav in the UK and to a lesser extent abroad - including some relatively sparsely populated bits, in aircraft with only DR available to me. I can't recall it ever being harder (or easier) than daytime DR nav. Different yes, and definitely the ability to maintain conditions by reference to the AI and DI are fundamental, but that is part of the night qualification course (or was mine anyhow).

G