If Carlsberg made a flying Club

[billiboing]

Have the uneasy task of recently acquiring a small flying club which I really genuinely want to develop into something special. I DONT expect to make any money out of it, but if it could break even that would be good. More importantly I want it to be a GOOD, SAFE, and FUN place to be and learn.

I was just wondering with the exception of free fuel, free flying, blonde 25 year olds pumping your fuel, free beer and spitfires for hire, what do people think are the important things to get right and what are the ingredients to a really good flying school/ club.

There are many good schools and clubs- what would make them really good???

[maxred]

Safe and reliable aeroplanes to fly. On line booking system with clear and prompt customer service and feedback.

A knowledgeable CFI who can mentor and explain issues surrounding exams, and flying issues.

Warm and welcoming club atmosphere, with a healthy and vibrant social scene.

The financial structure, with some thought, can be structured to suit all budgets and cash flow restrictions.

Land away cards, that club members can be pay a monthly fee and get concession landings at other airfields - joined up thinking

Probably loads more............:hmm:

[McGoonagall]

If possible offer something different to the C152/172 and PA-28. The future in PPL training has to be Rotax powered two seaters (Eurostar,AT-3 etc) that burn about 3gph of MOGAS.

A study area with wi-fi access, flight planning facilities and decent tea and coffee.

[Cows getting bigger]

Minimal bureaucracy

Fun flying - don't even think about having a fleet of sheds.

Social scene

Something that wife and child can do whilst husband strokes his ego.

Don't fall into the 'maximum footfall' trap. Treat your members as members and not customers.

Communicate.

[foxmoth]

Ultimate High - but with a bar in the evening!:8

[wsmempson]

Carlsberg have already made a flying club.

It's called White Waltham.

(Just a shame that the runways were made by Watneys.) :}

[MichaelJP59]

I would like to see a selection of aircraft for training and rental, from cheap Rotax to full IFR, also a nice variety of owned aircraft for PPL trainees and others to aspire to. Aerobatics training with a Super Decathlon and Pitts S2 for training/hire.

Couple that with a main and crosswind hard runway, grass strips alongside for those that prefer. Maintenance companies on site, along with interesting restoration companies rebuilding something like Hurricanes or Spitfires. A good bar and restaurant with excellent food.

Surely not much to ask? :)

[The500man]

If possible offer something different to the C152/172 and PA-28.This is probably the best thing you could do. If all you have are spam-cans then people will regard you as just a school like any other and not a club worth attending for fun. Even a Piper Cub, or a tailwheel Cessna 120 would be something different, and these don't cost a lot to buy. (I read something about Stampe's going on to LAA permits just recently which might make them affordable. That's something I know I'd really like to fly)

with a healthy and vibrant social scene.This will be hard to get right for everyone, but things like an occasional barbeque, or a guest speaker, or even something like a flying navigation race would get members more involved.

Other things:


A club membership deal that includes home landings and maybe circuits.
A fly-out group with a yearly schedule (even if half of it gets cancelled)
A decent receptionist that answers the phone (maybe a job for a blonde 25 yr old ;))
Online booking
Fuel cards for a self-service pump
Equipment hire (parachutes, ELTs, life raft etc.)

EDIT: If you are thinking about commercial training... http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/454729-if-carlsberg-made-atpl-manuals.html

[billiboing]

some really good ideas guys- please keep them coming:ok:

[IanPZ]

I'd like to second (or third) the idea of more 2-seater light aircraft, like the eurostar etc. Not sure which of these you can legally learn on as a light aircraft, rather than microlight, but from all the people I talk to, taking more than 1 other person up is not as common as all that, and the new breed of rotax planes are comfy, fairly fast, and much cheaper on fuel.

Also, comfy rest area, tea and coffee (not a machine, please) and wifi.

And as for a social, get some members involved in running it. If you try to do it all yourself, not only will you get knackered, but also it will only have your flavour to it.

When I was looking for somewhere to learn, places like damyns hall, exodus, booker seemed far more attractive than those airfields where the main training organisation was cabair, and anything else ran out a small shack that was damp and smelled of wee!

Finally, make your presence online, make it good, and keep it changing (diaries, events, student blogs, instructor comments). A lot of the social interaction that starts online can end up in a club, but if you dont have the online presence, you don't attract the browsers (ha ha!)

Good luck, and tell us more about it. Oxford is near enough for me to visit once in a while! (or more, when I get a license :-)

IPZ

[IanPZ]

oh, and here is one last thought, from another thread (thanks to madjock).

Why not allow customers to learn, and give them the option of buying in to a syndicate plane, and then only paying for lessons (wet per hour rate is their responsibility). Several clubs are now doing it, and it gives a real sense of ownership, and can often make the learning process cheaper.

It may also expand your possible list of planes. I seem to recall something about it being okay to learn in certain non CofA planes as long as you part own it (but I cant remember any of the details!)

[Monocock]

Carlsberg have already made a flying club.

It's called White Waltham.

Err, it's August 1st, not April 1st!

Unless you have a triple barrelled surname (and skin like a rhino if you don't), I think there are more human places to visit!!!

Perhaps more a case of, if "Bollinger made an airfield" for that one!!

[foxmoth]

I read something about Stampe's going on to LAA permits just recently which might make them affordable. That's something I know I'd really like to fly

Yes, but that then means they cannot be rented out:rolleyes:

[The500man]

What if it was a club syndicate where everyone owns 0.1%?

[stickandrudderman]

AFAIK, max no of shareholders is 6 for some reason or other. I could be (and probably am) wrong.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Nah, WW is lovely! Carlesberg wouldn't have a clue how create it. ;)

A company that pushes a cold fizzy drink (cold so you can't taste it - which is perhaps as well), that is inert and dead and made in a chemical plant, that's so bad it needs a massive advertising campaign to shift it, when good stuff like Copper Dragon or London Pride is available, would produce something along the lines of that hellhole, Heathrow T3 rather than the delightful WW.

[The500man]

Ha ha! Which leads to the question: which brand of alcohol best describes your airfield?

[foxmoth]

AFAIK, max no of shareholders is 6 for some reason or other. I could be (and probably am) wrong

I think you will find max is 20 - if you go over this you are renting out and it needs to be Public Transport, so again, not LAA.

[billiboing]

Please critique the plan; This is where I am with it. This is NOT about advertising the club so Im not saying where it is. It is about really genuinely trying to provide what you guys want.

This is where I am upto and what is already in place;

a) Fleet; 2 x PA38s (one IFR), 2 x PA28s (one full glass cockpit and airways).
1 x C150 Aerobat. 1 x C150 normal. 1 x Grob 109 motorglider
2 x Slingsby Venture ( cheap two seater flying available at £60/hr)
1 x Condor for tailwheel- more interesting hire.

Not doing twins


b) No yellow jackets
c) Internet for WIFI for clubhouse ordered today
d) New coffee machine ordered for good coffee ordered today to replace cheap nasty coffee we currently have.
e) Club members already get free base landings
f) Got big leather sofas in clubhouse, repainted it and got new carpets down.
g) As soon as WIFI arrives will set up flight planning/ weather etc
h) Already arranged first BBQ and fly out together and have three more fly outs planned before Christmas.
i) Doing a dawn patrol against another local airfield.
j) CFI has 30 years plus experience as is an examiner. Also have an IR examiner on staff.
k) Have installed snacks (crisps, chocolates and drinks etc- all at 50p each)
l) Free donuts on a saturday morning.
m) Have started selling oil and pilot supplies.
n) Allowing pupils to book a whole day and a single aircraft and instructor on a one to one basis.
o) HOOK NORTON BEER served in bar.






Will need to sort online booking. Still not got the blonde. Any ideas please for online booking systems?

What am I missing?

[SoundBarrier]

steakandchips...

I am not in the Isle of Mud but your plan looks like it is heading in the right direction, you did ask for feedback though...

1. Friday night members draw
Draw a members number from a hat and if they're there they win 10 Quid. If not it goes into the 'kitty' for next week and go again until the money is won.

2. Sucker a member in to run / organise a few events. You have a BBQ, but what about a pub quiz? Have something everyone can enjoy and even make it aviation related. A good bit of fun for a spot prize would be for each person to submit an entry for completion to the sentence, "There I was and nothing on the clock but...." for some fun reading.

3. Newsletter - online and printed. Some people don't take their IPAD to the shi77er. But if you have updates like,
"This month we have a flying competition, winner gets 0.00001% share in the coffee machine" or something similar people will come and fly

4. Run a flying competition
If you want details on planning and running these I have a fair bit of experience, PM me. There are several types which you can encourage people to fly - again it is about the flying not about money - but more flying keeps the flying cheaper and the club existing

5. Have a 'bring the family' event. Get wife/husband/girlfriend/child up in a plane with an instructor at a reduced rate to get them to see what it's like. Get a jumping castle or something for the kids if you have members with small ones.

6. Members are friends and not customers as has been mentioned previously. Get everyone involved in running, organising and taking part all the above - it creates a sense of kinship and pride in their club

7. Food - food should be available and good. Good does not mean fancy

8. Make it about they flying.

Best of luck and feel free to PM me if you need to know more - I did this for a number of years and loved it!

[IanPZ]

Not sure how that differentiates you from any other club? If I go to Denham, all of that is there. I think unless you have a pre-existing market who are unhappy with their current school, then if you don't have anything really different from any other club, how does that give you a better chance than any other school?

Sorry to be negative, but just trying to be fair. Just sounds like a standard school to me.

Either way, good luck, and hope it goes well. IPZ

[SoundBarrier]

Hi IanPZ,

You make a good point, the reason I seek out clubs, wherever I am in the world, is because it is about the flying not about the money. School = Money, club = fun (GENERALLY).

Like a famous millionaire once said, "you don't have to do something original, you just do whatever everyone else does, just do it better/brilliantly/best"

[Tupperware Pilot]

S&C...
Is all the below going to be on one site?

a) Fleet; 2 x PA38s (one IFR), 2 x PA28s (one full glass cockpit and airways).
1 x C150 Aerobat. 1 x C150 normal. 1 x Grob 109 motorglider
2 x Slingsby Venture ( cheap two seater flying available at £60/hr)
1 x Condor for tailwheel- more interesting hire.

[Dan Winterland]

Foster a club atmosphere is my best advice. The best club I ever flew at was a group on it's own airfield where the club activities were almost as important as the flying.



Also, when I got involved with running the place, I scrapped landing fees and reduced the fuel price. The result was an increase in income as other pilots made it their destination of choice. You will be amazed to find how far they will fly to fill up at 5p a liter less! Also, we got a good coffee machine, great muffins and a nice place to sit and consume them. The cafe made a fortune.

Something to consider if you have control over such things.

Also having something different to fly will set you apart as well. The club I fly at on my infrequent visits to the UK has a Decathalon which is why I fly there. Offer AOPA aerobatic courses and you will enhance the club massively.

[L'aviateur]

Atmosphere is everything. Especially a welcoming atmosphere. It's daunting for young (and old) first timers who walk into a club to enquire about trial lessons with a handful of questions. It's great if the club welcomes them in the moment they walk through the door and invites them to look around the club and provides them with some printed information on how to proceed, prices and encourages them to become a member and enjoy the club as well as the flying.

[FleetFlyer]

If White Waltham were more welcoming to visitors arriving by car and the fuel was a little less expensive then it would be the perfect club.

I do like to see bits of aeroplanes used to decorate the walls/ceilings as well as the usual photos. It creates atmosphere.

Top marks on the Hook Norton.

Also, White Waltham has a member's day airshow that is always brilliant. If you could fit in something similar but open to the public, it would be a great way to raise local awareness and make some additional income.

Whoever works the reception should have it drilled into them that its not acceptable to keep customers waiting and generally ignore them like I have experienced on several occasions at Popham.

[Firewalled]

Tecnam aircraft. Sleek, sexy, sporty. P92 and P2002 for PPL. You can offer CPL/ME on a P2006, which is cheaper to operate than most complex twins. Not to mention their new line up (P2010 etc.)

[Rod1]

Humm
Location given as Oxford.

Any speculation on location of the club?

I would love some time on that Condor.

Scrap the PA38s and go for VLA’s

Rod1

[FleetFlyer]

He could probably scrap the 152 as well. If the Aerobat is cheap to rent then it could be a good laugh but otherwise, surely a Citabria or Cap10 would be better? I guess the problem is what is cheap and does not require a tailwheel endorsement but is still fun to do aeros in. Suggestions anyone?

What about a factory built Tipsy Nipper for hire at £60/hr I kow I would go for it but I'm not sure about the legalities?

Low/no landing fees would be a great way to generate traffic and footfall. As previously stated, if the cafe is good (think Old Sarum) then people will come and spend money on fuel and a really good sarnie, negating the need for the income generated by landing fees. And lets face it, the more people that walk through the clubhouse door, the more money you'll make.

I think you can also generate footfall and interest by having a skydiving concern onsite as this attracts lots of people with the guts to fly.

Apologies if these suggestions have already been made.

[jaycee46]

steakandchips - great handle by the way - put that on your menu and I'll be there! You mentioned about an online booking system - try Dave Barclay at Highland Aviation in Inverness. They have a pretty slick system which may be of interest.

[Intercepted]

Scrap the PA38s and go for VLA’s

Bad idea, since he would loose one of his few IMC capable airplanes, also certified for intentional spins.

[Comms Boy]

Steakandchips,
I do admire someone who has the guts to start a project like this.
As with any club, keep it simple. Concentrate on the basics of what people want. Don’t try and do everything. Make people who visit, want to return. This can only be done by making the visit fun/interesting. Visit your competitors to see what they’re doing and get a feel as to what is working. Busy clubs / happy people?
Avoid “committee types” who like to get involved in the running of a club but only end up upsetting members.
You say you don’t want to make any money out of it but I don’t believe that’s realistic, any successful club should be solvent and run as such. If someone can afford to fly a light aircraft, they can afford to pay Costa prices for coffee (but they will expect the coffee to be good!) The same goes for landing fees, if the runway is in good condition people won’t mind paying for it.
Best of luck
Pete

[effortless]

Funnily enough I was always put off by a good club atmosphere. I know I'm a miserable old s*d but all I ever wanted was to ring up, book, turn up and fly. This is why I never took up gliding properly. Time was too short to hang around all day. This sounds pretty unfriendly but I know I'm not alone. Some of us just want to fly. We already have a social life. If you can accommodate us as well the luvly.

[eharding]

l) Free donuts on a saturday morning.



Call me Nostradamus, but I predict that could end badly.

In particular, I predict the sound of an approaching Russian radial, the sound of frantic donut munching, the (laboured) sound of a departing Russian radial, and then the sound of your bank manager on the phone demanding to know how the hell you blew twenty grand on donuts during your first weekend of operation.

[Mickey Kaye]

"Tecnam aircraft. Sleek, sexy, sporty. P92 and P2002 for PPL"

Which will fall apart after 10 mins. They are not upto the stresses and stains of a flying school.

150 aerobats are great aircraft you can teach PPL, IMC, Night and Aeros so they earn you cash all year round. And they will run on 91UL.

I love PA38 but that spar life doesn't help the bottom line

[nick ritter]

I fly from WW and am a huge fan - to be fair always looking to improve their service (at least over my 2yrs experience)

Some things that would escalate it for myself to a Carlsberg experience: member of ground crew coming out to meet you on arrival (from a day trip to France perhaps) with some refreshments and then to offer to put the cover on the plane for you. I am sure most will think I am a lazy sod but i would happily pay a bit extra for a more personal service

Finally, as you relax for a second with friends someone somewhere updates the flight record electronically so saving idiots like myself no end of grief going over this

[Firewalled]

Mickey Kaye
Which will fall apart after 10 mins. They are not upto the stresses and stains of a flying school.


:hmm: Really? I learned to fly on a 5800hr P92 of which 5700 of those hours were all PPL training. Seemed to hold together well, even after 20 or so of my magnitude 8 landings.

[stickandrudderman]

In these modern times I am astonished that none of the (admittedly not many) clubs I have frequented have any kind of email system set up so that interest can be maintained.
I think if I ran a club I would take the email address of every single person that set foot in the club and make sure that from then on they were aware of every event, special deal, fly out, discount, change of rules or whatever was on offer.
EG: I attended an excellent aerobatic beginners day last year. It was very well run and all participants were later emailed with their results, but there's been absolutely no follow up.
Whereas last week I bought a switch for six quid and today I got an email from the company asking if everything was OK. Good service.
Some enthusiastic individuals do attempt it off their own back but it's not the same as coming from the club itself.
Too many clubs leave the initiative to the member/visitor/individual employee.

[IanPZ]

stickandrudderman, thats exactly what our club does. As soon as you join, your email gets added, and then one of the members who runs the social side emails every month, telling people what that month's event will be, and also any events coming up. Means we can all plan ahead!

And you are so right, that makes a huge difference, and means we actually go to club events, cos its used as a reminder as well.

[hum]

This seems to work well:

http://goboko.com/

Good luck!

[hugh flung_dung]

Stickandrudderman: I'm glad you enjoyed the OS aerobatic day last year. The aim was that it would become at least an annual event, rotating around the clubs that were represented, but unfortunately a medical problem has intervened this year and nobody else has picked-up the baton.

To the OP:
Important aspects are: a friendly and supportive club spirit, ground social activities (including dining-in nights), flying outings, bar, post-PPL mentorship, a range of aircraft types so that a visible skill progression is available, approachable and experienced staff, experienced FIs (500-1000 hours instructing as a minimum) who have a customer-focussed attitude and are doing it because they enjoy it and have a passion (not just hours building), and I hate to use the term but CRM (Customer Relationship Management for those who are lucky-enough not to have come across it before) is actually very important. Flying must be fun and exciting.

However, two controversial areas that I feel could be done better are the charging structure and the insurance excess liability. IMnsHO these should be transparent so that the customer knows what they are paying for and so there are no cross-subsidies.

An invoice should show:


the aircraft charge at an assumed fuel cost
the instructor/examiner charge (if any) for flight time
the instructor charge (if any) for ground time
additional landing fees (one is included in the aircraft charge)
approach fees (if any)
a fuel surcharge/refund based on the actual fuel price on the day

... by doing this the customer can see exactly what they are paying for, and only have to pay for things that they have used or benefitted from.

Although accidents are not common it seems normal for clubs/schools to absorb any accident costs; this can affect the viability of the business or the rental costs to other members. Insurance should be handled in the same way as hire cars. In the event of an accident the hirer should be liable for the insurance excess (or repair cost if minor) and should be required to put a credit card on file and sign an agreement. For an additional payment (either annual or per rental payment) the excess can be waived, like the hire car CDW. Nothing new needs to be invented because this is exactly as the car hire system operates.

HFD
(edited to fix several errors)

[pulse1]

I have been a member of two professionally run flying clubs and one amateur one.

The first professional club was based at a large airport and had a superb airport location which, with excellent food, attracted many members of the public who bought trial flights. It operated the usual fleet of Cessna/Piper aircraft. The very good social side was maintained by a large group of supporters, most of whom did not fly except as passengers. Although it was great to be a member, I have no idea how financially viable it was.

This club was sold to a national flying training organisation who completely, and very quickly, destroyed the social side. I assume that this venture then failed because it was sold(given?) back to some of the old instructors and still exists but does not appear to have regained it's former glory which depended on the social activities and excellent catering.

The second club offers good catering, a building social side but, being more rural, has to extend it's catchment area to attract enough paying customers. It does this with a good restaurant which attracts many members of the public who buy trial flights.

It would seem that catering and social activities are the key to a successful club, especially if people have to travel to get there.

Obviously a core of regular spenders can be maintained if there are good facilities for private owners e.g. hangarage and engineering.

[foxmoth]

He could probably scrap the 152 as well. If the Aerobat is cheap to rent then it could be a good laugh but otherwise, surely a Citabria or Cap10 would be better? I guess the problem is what is cheap and does not require a tailwheel endorsement but is still fun to do aeros in. Suggestions anyone?

I would agree with this, Aerobat is OK for the odd loop, but not a fun Aeros machine, at the least go for an Aerobatic Robin, Slingsby or even A Pup 150. Citabria/Cap10/Bulldog will also do the job, but for aeros, PLEASE - not a C152!:=

[thing]

Looking at it from the 'visiting aircraft' point of view, if I'm looking for somewhere to go, I check out whether it has a good caff/restaurant first, and by good I don't mean lark's tongues in aspic but reasonably priced home made steak pie and veg/chips, large mug of proper tea, that sort of thing. Sherburn has an excellent caff that does that sort of thing as does Sywell and Cosford. If it has then it goes on my list of places to visit, if it doesn't I wouldn't even consider it.

[billiboing]

I will be trying to incorporate most of your responses;

In the last two months I have managed to do the following;

With regard to aircraft selection, yes a more aerobatic would be nice, but it has to be commercially viable. With two Cessna 150s, one an aerobat and one non, the idea is that the aerobat could do either PPL training or hairybatics, We have also now got a PA28, two PA38s as well as the Slingsbys.

I have ordered a new coffee machine!

I am organising a dawn patrol with a return patrol to a couple of local airfields,
the instructors I have now are all 15000 hour plus and examiners as well,
I have put new carpet in the clubhouse and repainted the walls, am building a flight sim using an old fuselage for winter rainy days (only ms flight sim and a 50" screen), I am organising an online flight booking system, and HAVE REDUCED THE HIRE RATES, I have also banned any upfront payments, got a credit card machine, have registered with three trial flight organisations to get a steady flow of trial flights and hopefully new members, we have installed wifi for members, and got a computer for flight planning and met with a printer ready to go in.

We have got FREE sweatshirts for the members ( donation to charity), and have got lifejackets, liferaft and an ELT for members to hire. We have also got some Airaware GPSs for the club aircraft. I have also added a ADF to one of the Tomahawks and PA28s.

Just need to find some weekend instructors if anyone knows of any good ones then please PM me. I will let all know how it goes. There is more of your suggestions to incorporate yet. I dont control the catering on site so cant do much on that front but have installed a snack bar of chocolate and crisps etc etc.

And finally- we managed a £12.00 profit last month!!!!!- Pity was I went out down the pub to celebrate and spent £30!. Hey ho!

Thanks again guys- any more suggestions really welcome.

[Captainkarl]

website address?

[IO540]

I was just wondering with the exception of free fuel, free flying, blonde 25 year olds pumping your fuel, free beer and spitfires for hire, what do people think are the important things to get right and what are the ingredients to a really good flying school/ club.

You got that about right, except for one thing: the 25 year olds need to be female, size 8 :)

I think the one thing most/all schools/clubs do wrong is to push out experienced pilots, because they don't spend money there anymore, undermine the authority of the ever-wise instructors, and most likely divert the students' precious cash into their own PPL cost sharing arrangements.

If you can provide facilities/activities (flight planning, fly-outs, etc) where ex customers like that can participate, with their own aircraft perhaps, you will end up with a dynamic environment, rather than the sterile scenario found in most places.

And I am talking about the actual place of business, not the cafe next door where these people might hang out.

The problem is that the above runs counter to the usual business model which is to sell maximum hours, with an instructor in the RHS if possible.

You could also try charging less for ground running time (after the initial brakes-off moment). I know that going to "dry" is complicated but having punters paying £150/hr or whatever while they are waiting at the hold is inviting various kinds of bad behaviour, which I see every time I fly.

[FleetFlyer]

Are we allowed to know where this place is yet?

[foxmoth]

You could also try charging less for ground running time (after the initial brakes-off moment). I know that going to "dry" is complicated but having punters paying £150/hr or whatever while they are waiting at the hold is inviting various kinds of bad behaviour, which I see every time I fly.

There is an easy way round this that a number of schools I know use - you use t.o and touchdown times then just add 5 mins either side to give a standard taxi time, this means that punters are NOT paying a fortune for time at the hold - it also means that they do not rush checks to save time/money.

[welliewanger]

Safety culture. Safe and sensible flying is encouraged and an ethos which emphasizes that the PPL is only the beginning. Opportunities for group fly outs to far flung places or just brush up lessons. Maybe a free lesson (only the instructor, not the aircraft) every 10-20 hours of flying or a mandatory one every six months. To do the fun stuff and things people forget (stalling, crosswind landings, PFLs) it can be made very good fun.

[billiboing]

Home - Hinton Pilot Flight Training (http://www.hintonpft.co.uk)

Still got lots to do yet to the website inculding putting the online booking system on- but your comments as always would be welcomed. Personally I think the website I have made looking- well BORING!

:ugh:

[The500man]

Just an observation, but it looks to me from your website like your "club" is actually a flying school. I thought from your earlier posts that you were trying to achieve a positive club environment. I think you need to advertise that fact first with photo's etc. and then add a, "we provide flight training as well" section. Like I said just an observation. :)

[billiboing]

Have updated site with your suggestions- see if that is better.

You guys say- we do!

Chris

[madlandrover]

It's also worth being pedantic about the accuracy - are you sure you offer IRs ;)? Good too to correct some misconceptions about the qualifying cross country, since it's a required stage in the PPL/NPPL courses but it isn't a formal test.

[wsmempson]

Good luck with the new venture! A couple of picky comments;

1. You are quite opaque on the website as to where this is located. (I'm assuming that it is Hinton-In- the-Hedges).
I would probably shout louder about that and have a map, by road and for arrivals by air.

2. Your 1 hour air experience flight seems to retail at a lot more that 1 hour dual in the same aircraft, which would make me (were I a potential customer) ask why? Also, they seem to vary, page-to-page.

3. Are you certain that you will be offering full IR training? I thought that this was a specialised field.....

[IO540]

IR training will be a lot easier (in terms of establishment issues) under EASA, with the FTO/RF distinction disappearing.

[madlandrover]

IR training will be a lot easier (in terms of establishment issues) under EASA, with the FTO/RF distinction disappearing.

Not exactly - the distinction will in reality continue to exist, albeit under different names. CPL/IR/FI courses will still require a 3-6 month approval process, annual audits by Approvals Support staff, and a standard FTO setup will in practice be required to get the approval. Existing RFs will have to adopt a Quality Manual, Ops Manual, and essentially put their SOPs in writing as well as declaring who their instructing staff are.

It's actually not a bad thing for the industry when it comes to upgrading standards - EASA essentially want schools to maintain consistency and quality, a slightly odd concept to some in the industry!

[Mickey Kaye]

"It's actually not a bad thing for the industry when it comes to upgrading standards"

I've got a bad feeling the additional cost will make some of the marginal clubs no longer financially viable.

[IO540]

If industry generally is anything to go by, a quality manual is not an issue. You hire a consultant and for a few k he produces an ISO9000 quality manual for you. After that, you ignore it... That is how ISO9000 runs. Nearly 20 years later, it is just a sham. It's a very "European" approach however.

The company is only as good as the people running it.

I guess madlandrover is right. But what about fees to EASA? Currently an FTO needs to pay much bigger fees AFAIK. This in turn hugely inflates FTO training fees.

[billiboing]

Yes we do offer full IRs- both Single engine and multi- and we have our own examiner. With regards to the other comments there are again some good points- and I will make some more amendments. Many thanks guys and gals

Chris

[stickandrudderman]

Normally I hate websites that have automatic sound files, but what do you think to having the sound of radio traffic playing as a background track? It might help to evoke the atmosphere to a newbie. Just a thought............

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

Wish you all the best.

Suggest you invest a grand in your website and get it done professionally:

Marcus Dalgetty at Balado spent 750 and got this:
Pegasus Microlights Scotland - Microlight Flying in Scotland (http://www.pegasusscotland.co.uk/index.htm)

I think it looks great.

(I know our websites - especially the Strathaven one - need seriously updated, so not listing them. But, if you type certain key phrases into Google, they come up tops)

That is the other thing. Web optimise your pages. Don't need to pay anyone - indeed many "optimisers" don't know what they are up to, I feel.

That may mean rethinking your domain - ie flying_lessons_warwick .co.uk for instance. Think what the customers might look for, not what you want them to find. If no-one know that flying lessons are going on at Hinton, no-one will look for "flying lessons at Hinton". If someone is in Warwickshire and looking for flying lessons, they are more likely to search for "flying lessons in Warwickshire". I am sure you'll get my drift.

I suppose my Microlight Scotland - microlight flying lessons, trial flights and microlighting gift vouchers (http://www.microlightscotland.com) shows a fair bit of web optimisation - I think it comes up in the first 10 in the world for the word "microlight", for instance. Not the labels that appear when you "mouse over" photos. Not the miss-spellings of microlite etc in the photo mouse overs (you might want to look at "flite training" tucked in there, for instance.)

Finally, don't waste money on Yellow Pages, Thomson local etc!

(Keep it for flying, you'll need it at those prices!)

ps. Charge a fair bit more for trial lessons is the correct way. It is a lot easier to say to regular student Jimmy: see you next week at 10am, than it is to sell the voucher, answer questions, take a booking, answer all the questions, describe the route, answer the phone on the day for weather, meet and greet... etc etc etc. So you want paid for that.

(Yes, you do get the never redeemed vouchers. That is a plus. But no-one ever suggests that one should sell TFs cheaper than dual because of that!)

[IO540]

Web optimisation is largely dead now. Google is too clever and all the old tricks are obsolete.

What google does is measures relevance of the body text to the query, and measures how many people link to your site, etc. Nowadays, you can knock up a fairly specialised website and a few months later it will be the top hit on any remotely relevant query, despite having no meta tags, no "web optimisation", etc.

The best advice is to write a website with clear descriptions of everything, plenty of textual content (yes, people with money are mostly educated, despite appearances), written in good correct English, and avoiding Flash, big files, etc.

Paying google a few hundred quid a month to purchase key phrases like "flight training hampshire" is probably worth doing.

[salvapatuel]

so, where is the club going to be based?

[Blues&twos]

Just had a look at the site, nice and clear, good, full descriptions of what you are offering and everything that's included in the price...agree with wsmempson that it needs a map to show location.

For 'Trial Flighters' and newbies it would be nice to have the aircraft photographs captioned with their type e.g. '2 seater - Cessna 150' etc.

I'm tempted to visit, myself!

(also noticed a spelling mistake under Trial Lesson Gift Vouchers..."Hinton Pilot Flight Training, their staff and agents, cannot be held responsible for unsuitable weather, staff illness and unforseen technical issues effecting flight bookings." Should be 'affecting'.
:ok:

[Lurcherman]

Drive up fuel by CC and lights (PCL) to cater for business use and winter ops.

[madlandrover]

Yes we do offer full IRs- both Single engine and multi- and we have our own examiner.

In which case congratulations - I know from personal experience what the approval process is to offer modular IR courses, not a task for the faint hearted! Might it be worth posting your FTO number on the site as well, since Standards Doc 31 is some months out of date?

[MichaelJP59]

Just looked at the website, looks OK from the training point of view, though as others said, it could do with a tidy up from a good designer.

Despite the friendly flying club message though, the site seems all about training and nothing about the airfield. From potential visitors point of view, it needs airfield information, circuit details and perhaps weather links? A webcam is nice but not essential.

[IO540]

I think the website needs a little tidy-up but currently it is very quick, efficient, clear, and to the point, which is something that most intelligent customers appreciate, and that is exactly the sort of customer you want to attract ;)

A tip: unless you have a very good antispam service (I use Messagelabs, £400/year) I would present the email address as a graphic, not as machine readable text. I would also give people an enquiry form; this can be easily made spam-proof, and it ensures that you get reasonable information on the enquirer.

Yes; it needs pilot-visitor information also.

[madlandrover]

If industry generally is anything to go by, a quality manual is not an issue. You hire a consultant and for a few k he produces an ISO9000 quality manual for you.

No exception here - even easier in fact, template manuals are available to be used in a "insert name here" process. Same with the Operations Manual requirements, most Flying Order Books or similar will suffice with a few changes. Costs? Yes, that could be trickier. Much like the recent re-registration of RFs at £100 a go after years of it being free. Sadly the cost will have to be passed on to the customer one way or another, the margins in most flying training simply aren't high enough to absorb excess fees - our own PPL training has a £1/hour margin, fortunately it's a sideline we rarely do! More painful were our £4000 FTO approval fees...

[TheGorrilla]

It would probably be as tasteless, dull and disgusting as the beer they brew. I'm thinking it would be something like the set up at Blackbush where that large training organization reside.

However, if a proper English brewery that produces proper English ale were to do a flying club.... It would be White Waltham.

Bolinger??! Bolinger my :mad::mad::mad::mad:!!!!

A good flying club should have the atmosphere of a pub with an airfield in the beer garden. It should have views of acres of lush green grass from the club house windows and have the sweet sounds of radial engines or Merlins starting up and the smell of oil and leather and..... Oh and the sound of whining pilots in the bar and amateur engineers swearing in the hangars.

Sorted.

[Guzzler]

I hear "Hinton Para" on the radio all the time. Is there much of a conflict there?

Charlton is a lovely village with a great (when I lived there!) pub. It may be worth including that.

Are you welcoming visiting pilots now? If so I will come over at the weekend!

(Wish I still lived in Charlton.)

[Tupperware Pilot]

I fly out of Hinton...."Hinton Para" is not a problem. We all talk to each other and it works well...

[Monocock]

However, if a proper English brewery that produces proper English ale were to do a flying club.... It would be White Waltham.

Where the "bar staff" refuse access to non-flying visitors? Err, I don't think so:hmm:

[TheGorrilla]

Too right, can't let the rif-raf in! ;)

[flapsin]

Large Ape,
The term is riff-raff and I think that accurately describes some of the membership.:rolleyes:

[billiboing]

Im not sure about riff raff- Im an licenced aircraft engineer which is generally considered by some to be the lowest form of life. So I suppose with me in there I have have started the standard pretty low and we can only improve.

"Test Flew" our new "sim" today which consists of a 42" TV, two sticks etc all coupled up to anew gamings computer running MS Flight Sim all in the front end of an old Katana Fuselage front end. You actually sit in the old cockpit and have the Screen in front of you. Intend installing it in the clubhouse for rainy days!. Just something of a bit of fun. Gonna charge £1 in the cancer research tin for a go!

:O

[Guzzler]

My VFR flight guide is 2010.

Who do we call for PPR now? I'll pop down tomorrow!

[TheGorrilla]

As a WW member it's not a term I have to use very often, o' Flappy one. I generally get my butler or his assistant to deal with such issues, since one doesn't like to get ones hands dirty shooing the great unwashed away. You'll have to excuse me I'm going for a massage at 7 followed by a coiffure....

[stuartforrest]

Hi there, looks like more than one of us has been producing a free solution. Take a look at ours and see what you think. It is and will always remain free and for the good of the community.

Here is our welcome letter:

Just to let you know that with immediate effect our new booking system for for aircraft/groups/instructors is available. You will need to login and create an account as the administrator of your group and then add all the other pilots and planes and instructors. Its a painless process and it will will send all your pilots an email along the way to tell them they have been activated.

Like many of the people who will use this system I was dissapointed when the booking system we used, GoBoKo announced a charging structure that wasnt cheap so I have invested the first couple of years of what I would have spent to write our own booking system which does all what the previous one did. In addition I am providing the service free of charge to the aviation community so nobody else has to pay. The address of the new system is Aircraft Bookings and you can find out more about the system at Welcome to the Free Aircraft Booking Sytem - FABS

If there are any problem with the system please let me know as it is hot off the press so we may have missed something.

It is pretty self explanatory to use.

1. register the group and main admin pilot

2. Add a plane or planes

3. Add pilots

Thats it. You are ready to go.

You can add bookings by clicking on the start time and then the end time in the calendar or you can also add them by selecting the times under the calender and you can select the end day if it later than the start day of the booking.

You can also book instructors by ticking a box while ticking a plane. We will hopefully add later today so you can book instructors without the need to book a plane for groundschool etc.

We will try to include any suggestions people make although as it is free there is no promises. Just ask nicely and we will see what we can do.

Please give me your feedback. [email protected]

Remember the only payment is that you put a link on your website if you have one back to our siste to help it get found by the search engines and so other pilots can track us down. Please link to Welcome to the Free Aircraft Booking Sytem - FABS (the website) not aircraftbookingsystem (the actual booking system)

Thanks

Stuart

[taybird]

I know I'm biased, but Leicester is pretty good. It has been a recognised club since 1909. I'm not sure how many of the current "old guard" were around at the time, but one of the original supporters was Mr Everard, of Everard's Brewery, which ticks the box relating to post flying / bad weather activities.

The fleet is mixed - 2 x C152, 2 x C152A, PA28-161, PA28-181, PA28R-201, T67M MkII.
There are, I'm guessing, over 60 privately owned aircraft there, with lots of very friendly syndicates. Over half are LAA permit types, so there's plenty of spanner work on weekends, and usually more than a couple of mugs from the bar in one hangar or other.

The ground school night is a social night where people who graduated a long time ago still gather to plan epic adventures, or to share stories. Newbies are adopted and encouraged, if they choose to take advantage of the social side. There's more flying in the bar than in the air sometimes, and that's great. The food is good too, in fact there's no reason to go home except for the fact that wives and girlfriends start to complain.

I wouldn't still be flying if it weren't for the support, friendship and cameraderie of club members. Sometimes the politics suck, and sometimes there's a little bs, but that's human. But it's still the place where I gravitate to, just because that's where my friends and surrogate family are.

I'm sure there are other clubs this good - I've heard great things about WW too, and that's fantastic. Long live the Real Clubs! :)