Flying over London, c'est possible?

[Nim19]

Hello people!

Yeah, so i'm asking whether you can fly anywhere above or around london, in a single engine plane. Obviously you've got the Heathrow and Gatwick flight paths, making obvious restrictions, but what about near london city aiport.

And also, i live in west kensington, and at night, say about 1 in the morning i can hear light aircraft passing overhead, so does this mean that we can fly there, but only at night???

let me know your thoughts!

cheers

nim

[FlyingForFun]

Nim, I was asking similar questions a while ago.

West London is all Class A. As a basic PPL, you'd have to get Special VFR, which apparently Heathrow don't mind doing as long as you don't interefere with their traffic, weather permitting of course.

East London is Class D, you can request a Zone Crossing, although I'm led to believe that Thames don't like giving this.

The big problem, in both cases, is that in a single-engined aircraft you have to be able to glide clear, and with the TMA above you at 2500' I don't you'd find a single-engined aircraft that can do this. So the short answer is, if you want to fly over London, do it in a helicopter!

(Waiting to be corrected by those who know better than me....)

FFF
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[A Very Civil Pilot]

When I was instructing, I used to regularly bring Trial Lesson flights into London. On Saturday afternoons, and Sunday mornings, London city is closed and its airspace becomes class G. Give a call to Thames Radar just to let them know what you're doing, and there should be no problem. Heading west up the Thames from the Dartford crossing, I used to go as far as Canary Wharf/Millenium Dome. As for gliding clear from 2500' or below, there was London city & Blackheath as my main options. To be honest I was always tempted to do a T&G at London city!!

No idea what the situation is now,post Sept 11, but I regularly hear light singles overhead home at the weekends (Greenwich).

[Red Four]

Contrary to above posting, London City control zone is now Class 'D' full time (24hours a day). If Thames Radar is not working, the controlling authority is Heathrow Approach.
Thames radar usually helpful on allowing zone transits, so long as it does not delay or jeapordise their primary function of EGLC traffic, and IFR traffic to EGKB. It's all a matter of timing to avoid the traffic bulges.... ;)

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I stand corrected- it's been almost a year since I last flew over London. But, as of yesterday, light aircraft are still flying over London. I guess it takes a bit more co-operation than it used to.

[Super Stall]

Is there anymore information you lot would like to volunteer to a possible al Qaeda operative and his crop duster !!!.

If Nim lives in London and has a license he should know the rules.

Have we learnt nothing yet. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[QUERY]

Well said, Super Stall.
Although Nim may be nice but dim, it is unbelievable that helpful advice is being proferred on this topic, without any concern about who might read and use it.
There is a serious risk that, if they do not act responsibly, the privileges (remember- they're not rights !) of private pilots will be withdrawn indefinitely. Being realistic, that would be a big vote-winner in many areas even without the current concerns! Unfair and disproportionate, maybe, but against the anxieties of the electorate and draconian emergency powers of the state, GA is FA.

[Nim19]

*From a colleague with ATC experience*

Gentlemen,

I would imagine that the think tanks of an international terrorist organisation retrive details about targets and operational areas via sources other than this poncy mailing list.

If you really believe that not talking about the 'top-secret' (note the sarcasm)information on the London air-space laws will help prevent an attack, you are more naive than the US airport authority that still will not x-ray passenger baggage.

Following 30 years of terrorist activity (ie. IRA), UK airspace is the among the most protected in the world. To keep it that way, we must be calm and rational. Super Stall and QUERY seem to be in a state of blind panic, perhaps a few months out of the pilot seat might be helpful, guys, you know, just to relax a little.

Regards and Happy Flying

John W Henry

[Nim19]

Come on guys, stop overreacting:

Ok so john shouldn't have called the mailing list poncy, I wouldn't have joined if it was.

All I wanted to know is whether I could fly over london for mere pleasure.

The negative consequences of my request which super stall and query boy seem to suggest are twofold:

1) Putting the idea of flying a single-engine plane into the al-qaeda's 'head'.

Come on, you don't think they would have thought of this already, they're not complete micro-brains. And taking a crop-duster plane over london? Are you THAT naive Stall? Do you honestly believe that ANY london air traffic authority would allow it?

2) The al-qaeda using the subsequent advice given.

Once again, naivety! :rolleyes: Whilst I use this opportunity to thank people for the replies, even beginning to suggest that the al-qaeda would this website as their prime resource is absurd.

Fear is what the terrorists are trying to instill into our lives, so Stall and Query are letting them win. Common sense however, should prevail, and I'm sorry but you guys are taking it to the extreme.

Nim

[ive348]

Taking it to the extreme is exactly what these terrorists did on 11 sept.
Remember the ads from the last war? "The enemy is listening!" It would be naive to think that this site is /was not frequented by people with less than peacefull intentions.

[eyeinthesky]

Irrespective of whether or not the wrong people read this site, do you all really think the legality of flying single engined over London or anywhere else would worry the type of people you are talking about? You're not ALLOWED to fly passenger jets into skyscrapers deliberately, but they did.

So please stop this tabloid-style sensationalism.

The original question was a perfectly valid one. The report about the LCY CTR being 24H is news to me, but I am happy to accept it. Certainly I used to fly a twin regularly on a Sunday morning over London and was told by Thames that the CTR was not active. (It often became active at 1300). I have on more than one occasion done a practice ILS into LCY in the open FIR (having told Thames that I was doing it) and the only thing to worry about is Rule 5 on the climbout.

The issue of doing it in a single-engined is one of those grey areas which can be debated all week. My feeling is that at 2400 ft you have about 5 nm glide distance in still wind, which is enough to make it into the Lea Valley or LCY or the open ground south of the river. It all depends upon your assessment of the meaning of 'alight clear'. If you take it to mean clear of the whole conglomeration of London, then you have no chance. If you take it to mean clear of a congested area (e.g. into the Lea Valley) then you are OK. Your licence, your choice.

Thames can indeed be very helpful, but bear in mind that it is not ATC's responsibility to ensure you are complying with the law. If they send you via Westminster to avoid traffic and you are single engined, then I suggest you request another route!

[paulo]

I've noticed that neither of my Jepp/Bottlang VFR guides have ever had LCY in, and kind of wondered whether there was some kind of no-VFR rule that would explain it's omission? All the majors are included.

[eyeinthesky]

I tried to arrange to fly VFR into LCY a while back. The requirements were quite stringent including the following:

1)They do not accept single engined aircraft.

2) All flights must be CPL twin crew.

3) Both crew members must be checked out on a 5.5 degree glideslope. (Available at Innsbruck and Gamston, I believe)

4) As far as I could gather, VFR arrival was not available.

5) Landing fees in the region of £100+.

So I didn't bother. That might explain its omission from a VFR guide.

It doesn't stop you flying over it, however.

[paulo]

The really really don't want GA. Understandable I suppose.

These glideslopes look a bit more acute than 5.5 degrees though. Earlier in the approach they were probably sideslipping... :-)
http://www.lcacc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/history/firstlanding.WMV